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 How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?

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TheSpiral
Szabo
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Szabo




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How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Empty
PostSubject: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 8:40 am

Reportedly after firing at Nicole Nowlen and John Tomlin, Eric then shot and killed Kelly Fleming who was hiding behind table 2, but what occured to me recently was how do we know this?

In the 11k apart from Nicole Nowlen saying she saw Kelly originally sat at table 4, there's no other mention of her, not even by any of the girls on table 2 (although one witness did state seeing a body near table 1 with a wound to the back which had to have been either Lauren Townsend or Kelly Fleming) so I'm curious as to how the time of Kelly's sad death was calculated.





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TheSpiral

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PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 9:39 am

Given the circumstances, I think it was just an educated guess.
After injuring Nowlen and Tomlin, Eric fired two shots near table two, and the next thing people noticed around that area was her body, even though she moved around a little before she died, she crawled a little ways around table two before dying.

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How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 10:39 am

Considering how long the bodies were just laying there, I would assume they went over the witness reports, maybe the 911 call, and by the Coroner's autopsy report to try and guesstimate her time of death. Or as close to it as they could come anyway.
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1Mare1

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PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 10:40 am

It's impossible to know the exact time of death, but the autopsy report has the estimated time.
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Szabo




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PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 11:16 am

Just to clarify I wasn't questioning the time of her death, only its placing in the timeline of events.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 12:15 pm

Szabo wrote:
Just to clarify I wasn't questioning the time of her death, only its placing in the timeline of events.

The same process would still apply. The 11k witness reports are all over the place in terms of accuracy. The victims were scattered out over the room hiding under tables, some separated by tall bookshelves. Add in the fire alarms and the general chaotic mess the place was in, I doubt the majority of those kids could have told you their correct birthdays.

There were no cameras in the library to show in what order the victims were shot in. So they had to piece a likely pattern together from the witness reports and Coroner reports.
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PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 2:01 pm

Regarding Kelly Fleming, Lisa Kreutz stated that (page 000063) After the students had left the Library, Kreutz was laying down under her table and heard the school bell ring. This was the 11:45 bell, which meant her lunch period was over. The fire alarm was still going off at that time. Kreutz remembers another girl crawling up and laying her head down by her. The girl had blonde hair. Kreutz did not know the girl. Kreutz continued to lay under her table and heard the 11:50 a.m. bell and then the 12:10 and 12:15 p.m. bells.

**Of course her memory was affected greatly by the shooting. She did not even remember/mention the shootout at the Library windows that happened shortly after 12:00.

*I believe that girl was Kelly Fleming. Kelly's body position fits with that description.

Victim [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], later identified as KELLY FLEMING, was found lying on the floor in a prone position to the southeast of Table 2. She was dressed in a black shirt, denim pants and black/white tennis shoes. An entry wound consistent with a shotgun discharge was present in the lower left back of the body. The plastic shotgun cup/wad was present in the wound tract. Several associated pellet holes were present adjacent to the main entry wound. Drainage of blood from the wound was minimal and consistent with the position of the body as found. Drainage of blood from the nose/mouth area was consistent with the position of the body as found. No other bloodstains were present on the body. Photographs were taken of the position of the body, the bloodstains present on the body, and the bloodstains on the carpet surrounding the body.

Autopsy results from Dr. Dobersen on KELLY FLEMING indicated a single shotgun blast entered the lower left back, traveled straight upward, and the pellets were contained in the upper left back area. The acute angle of travel through the body indicated that the victim was in a prone or near prone position when shot.

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How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 2:09 pm

sororityalpha wrote:
Regarding Kelly Fleming, Lisa Kreutz stated that (page 000063) After the students had left the Library, Kreutz was laying down under her table and heard the school bell ring. This was the 11:45 bell, which meant her lunch period was over. The fire alarm was still going off at that time. Kreutz remembers another girl crawling up and laying her head down by her. The girl had blonde hair. Kreutz did not know the girl. Kreutz continued to lay under her table and heard the 11:50 a.m. bell and then the 12:10 and 12:15 p.m. bells.

**Of course her memory was affected greatly by the shooting. She did not even remember/mention the shootout at the Library windows that happened shortly after 12:00.

*I believe that girl was Kelly Fleming. Kelly's body position fits with that description.

Victim [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], later identified as KELLY FLEMING, was found lying on the floor in a prone position to the southeast of Table 2. She was dressed in a black shirt, denim pants and black/white tennis shoes. An entry wound consistent with a shotgun discharge was present in the lower left back of the body. The plastic shotgun cup/wad was present in the wound tract. Several associated pellet holes were present adjacent to the main entry wound. Drainage of blood from the wound was minimal and consistent with the position of the body as found. Drainage of blood from the nose/mouth area was consistent with the position of the body as found. No other bloodstains were present on the body. Photographs were taken of the position of the body, the bloodstains present on the body, and the bloodstains on the carpet surrounding the body.

Autopsy results from Dr. Dobersen on KELLY FLEMING indicated a single shotgun blast entered the lower left back, traveled straight upward, and the pellets were contained in the upper left back area. The acute angle of travel through the body indicated that the victim was in a prone or near prone position when shot.


Lisa stated the girl had blonde hair. Kelly Fleming had darker hair. More of a brown shade from the pictures we have of her. Maybe Lisa had confused her with another victim.
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Szabo




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How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 2:13 pm

It's commonly reported as well that Kelly most likely died instantly.
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TheSpiral

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PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 2:26 pm

Szabo wrote:
It's commonly reported as well that Kelly most likely died instantly.

That's obviously incorrect, given the above report.

_________________
Falling out of airplanes and hiding out in holes
Waiting for the sunset to come, people going home
Jump out from behind them and shoot them in the head
Now everybody dancing, the dance of the dead
The dance of the dead, the dance of the dead
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Szabo




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How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 2:59 pm

TheSpiral wrote:
Szabo wrote:
It's commonly reported as well that Kelly most likely died instantly.

That's obviously incorrect, given the above report.

The autopsy? I've wondered that as well and how they're even able to determine whether someone died instantly. Perhaps it's based on the severity of the wound.
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Littlelo

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PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 4:03 pm

So if the autopsy suggests she was in a prone position when she was shot, was she playing dead? Sorry if this was already confirmed or discussed.
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TheSpiral

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How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeFri Sep 22, 2017 4:07 pm

Littlelo wrote:
So if the autopsy suggests she was in a prone position when she was shot, was she playing dead? Sorry if this was already confirmed or discussed.

I think she was just trying to take cover.

_________________
Falling out of airplanes and hiding out in holes
Waiting for the sunset to come, people going home
Jump out from behind them and shoot them in the head
Now everybody dancing, the dance of the dead
The dance of the dead, the dance of the dead
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How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Empty
PostSubject: Re: How do we know when Kelly Fleming died?   How do we know when Kelly Fleming died? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 25, 2017 8:32 am

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
sororityalpha wrote:
Regarding Kelly Fleming, Lisa Kreutz stated that (page 000063) After the students had left the Library, Kreutz was laying down under her table and heard the school bell ring. This was the 11:45 bell, which meant her lunch period was over. The fire alarm was still going off at that time. Kreutz remembers another girl crawling up and laying her head down by her. The girl had blonde hair. Kreutz did not know the girl. Kreutz continued to lay under her table and heard the 11:50 a.m. bell and then the 12:10 and 12:15 p.m. bells.

**Of course her memory was affected greatly by the shooting. She did not even remember/mention the shootout at the Library windows that happened shortly after 12:00.

*I believe that girl was Kelly Fleming. Kelly's body position fits with that description.

Victim [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], later identified as KELLY FLEMING, was found lying on the floor in a prone position to the southeast of Table 2. She was dressed in a black shirt, denim pants and black/white tennis shoes. An entry wound consistent with a shotgun discharge was present in the lower left back of the body. The plastic shotgun cup/wad was present in the wound tract. Several associated pellet holes were present adjacent to the main entry wound. Drainage of blood from the wound was minimal and consistent with the position of the body as found. Drainage of blood from the nose/mouth area was consistent with the position of the body as found. No other bloodstains were present on the body. Photographs were taken of the position of the body, the bloodstains present on the body, and the bloodstains on the carpet surrounding the body.

Autopsy results from Dr. Dobersen on KELLY FLEMING indicated a single shotgun blast entered the lower left back, traveled straight upward, and the pellets were contained in the upper left back area. The acute angle of travel through the body indicated that the victim was in a prone or near prone position when shot.


Lisa stated the girl had blonde hair. Kelly Fleming had darker hair. More of a brown shade from the pictures we have of her. Maybe Lisa had confused her with another victim.

Could be. Or her memory could be off or a number of other things. I think based on evidence it might have been Kelly. No way to know for sure.

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