Why we still care

Screamingophelia wrote:

I was a huge loner in HS so I may have been even more shy than Dylan and as angry as Eric.

If I did come out of my shell I would have been in the Brooks/Rachel/Zach theatre type group and would have known Dylan through plays. I've always said since day 1 I would've liked Dylan. I'm not sure about Eric. They had more friends than I did. Had I gone to Columbine and not gotten into o theatre, the Christian elite would have sucked me in. So many of my religious acquaintances tried to save me, even though I was very straight laced lol


I'm wondering if people my age who were in HS during Columbine have a different perception of the boys than the younger people who are teens and early 20's now?

I don't think they realize that guys like them go to their school, they want E&D or the idea of them.

I think they do have a diff perception. A lot of them were born long after E&D died. Which is a bit strange to think about. For them, the world Eric and Dylan lived in is completely foreign. I think a lot of that draws them in.

In Sue's book I think she mentions she gets letters from people saying how much they love Dylan and it upsets her. However didn't Tom laugh and say "my son has fans?"

Coming from someone who could have been called a "fan girl" of Eric's back in 2000 this is interesting to talk about. Back then I recall not having a ton of info about Dylan... we had more on Eric. The only tapes we had were the 30 second BT leak and Nate and Dylan's video. I was a bullied kid who would have gladly pummeled the people who were mean to me, with my fists that is... and I was amazed at what they did but horrified. Then I was horrified with myself wondering if I would have been capable of something like that.

I had first thought they were loners like me without friends, that was something else surprising to Dylan's parents I do believe. I got a different perspective of Dylan when I spoke to someone associated with him back then.

I've never really bought into what Brooks said about them on reddit but to think of them as bad asses walking through the school in sunglasses and smoking cigarettes is asinine.

Would they have wanted to have been Eric's girlfriend on 4/20. I sure as hell wouldn't. Would they have stood by if Dylan got drunk and started crying in her arms? Or on the oppposite end, getting angry and screaming at her? What about their friends who said the 2 of them pretty much only let you know what they wanted. You're in the dark if they didn't and too bad for you.



As much as I enjoy their student films I think they did more to foster the Eric and Dylan admiration and love more than the BT would.

The young ones can't understand the significance of Columbine because some weren't even born. They are eerily now stuck as teenagers even though they'd be 36 now. I feel weird when I say things like "I still think Eric looks handsome in that picture." Then I'm like "he's so young, 17!" Then I remember duh, so were you.

Some of these girls would be repelled by E&D in person
And vice versa.

Lizpuff wrote:

I think they do have a diff perception.  A lot of them were born long after E&D died.  Which is a bit strange to think about.  For them, the world Eric and Dylan lived in is completely foreign.  I think a lot of that draws them in.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement.

>The young ones can't understand the significance of Columbine because some weren't even born. They are eerily now stuck as teenagers even though they'd be 36 now. I feel weird when I say things like "I still think Eric looks handsome in that picture." Then I'm like "he's so young, 17!" Then I remember duh, so were you.

I have a small list of questions that I ask younger people about to see how much they know about the major crime events of the '90s (Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City, Columbine, Slobodan Milosevic, etc.) to see if they've even heard of them. A few of them are aware of Columbine and a few are also aware that this is the incident that is why they hear so much about "bullying."

E&D may have just been born in the wrong decade...there's been more sensitivity and political correctness in schools for awhile. Remember what Jonah Hill says in "21 Jump Street," "what's cool now? Comic books, being sensitive? I'd be king of this school if I'd been born later"

E&D may have a hero status for some born long after the fact similar to, say, how young people who didn't live through the 60s might have a fascination with Charles Manson. If kids become fascinated with the 90s, which were, as it was, a decade totally drowning in teen culture for much of its existence; maybe they miss all that "fun angst" that they didn't get to experience first hand. I completed a full run of "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" awhile back and I gotta say, it hasn't aged well.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

>The young ones can't understand the significance of Columbine because some weren't even born. They are eerily now stuck as teenagers even though they'd be 36 now. I feel weird when I say things like "I still think Eric looks handsome in that picture." Then I'm like "he's so young, 17!" Then I remember duh, so were you.

I have a small list of questions that I ask younger people about to see how much they know about the major crime events of the '90s (Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City, Columbine, Slobodan Milosevic, etc.) to see if they've even heard of them.  A few of them are aware of Columbine and a few are also aware that this is the incident that is why they hear so much about "bullying."  

E&D may have just been born in the wrong decade...there's been more sensitivity and political correctness in schools for awhile.  Remember what Jonah Hill says in "21 Jump Street," "what's cool now? Comic books, being sensitive?  I'd be king of this school if I'd been born later"

E&D may have a hero status for some born long after the fact similar to, say, how young people who didn't live through the 60s might have a fascination with Charles Manson.  If kids become fascinated with the 90s, which were, as it was, a decade totally drowning in teen culture for much of its existence; maybe they miss all that "fun angst" that they didn't get to experience first hand.  I completed a full run of "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" awhile back and I gotta say, it hasn't aged well.  

You raise a lot of interesting points.

Eric seemed to be very anti-PC from his writings, so I wonder if he would be even more angry with society based on how different things are in schools now. Although it would be better for both E&D if bullying had been treated the way it is now when they were in school. Unfortunately, their actions are probably a big part of why bullying is taken so much more serious now.

I think kids who were born after 1999 do have a fascination with the culture of the 90s. I also think people who grew up in that time and have memories of it find some nostalgia in delving back into the times that E&D grew up in.

Eric hated PC then, I couldn't imagine his rage at society now. That's one of the things I get about Eric, PC culture absolutely pisses me off to.

Is bullying being taken seriously? I hear a lot of talk about it but from my interactions with forum users that are still in high school nothing has been actually done about it and it's become worse with internet bullying/trolling. I think our society has become even better at making new Eric and Dylans.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I have been out of high school for nearly 10 years now so I can't speak from personal experience, but I can say I don't remember seeing anti-bullying campaigns and suicide prevention in the late 90s, early 00's like I do now.

silentprocess wrote:

Eric hated PC then, I couldn't imagine his rage at society now.  That's one of the things I get about Eric, PC culture absolutely pisses me off to.

Is bullying being taken seriously?  I hear a lot of talk about it but from my interactions with forum users that are still in high school nothing has been actually done about it and it's become worse with internet bullying/trolling.  I think our society has become even better at making new Eric and Dylans.  

IMHO yes and no. I do think there is a lot of talk about anti bullying or taking steps to end bullying but in the end it is just talk. The amount of people/organizations to help bullying is quite small. I don't think anyone like bullying but when they see it happening they do not want to be the one to take the first step to end it.

The Dateline show "what would you do" while being stupid and unrealistic at times does show some good points related to this. How if a group of people see someone being bullied, they would rather just stand there and watch with sympathetic eyes. Only going to the victim after the bully is gone. Or telling cameras afterward, "I didn't want to get involved but I feel sorry for them".

To add to this, I think there is a lot more support lately for teens in the LGBTQ+ community than before. I know it's not exactly what we are talking about, but it's in the same vein as anti-bullying IMO.

Littlelo wrote:

To add to this, I think there is a lot more support lately for teens in the LGBTQ+ community than before. I know it's not exactly what we are talking about, but it's in the same vein as anti-bullying IMO.

Unfortunately only certain groups of people are supported. There's no support system for what Dylan and Eric were, white, middle class (?), teens. From what I've been reading from schools and professors being white is the new sin of the day (not morally bankrupt people mind you), this perspective will perpetuate more isolation and bitterness. I don't think it's taken hold as much in High School education (although I've seen many instances) as much as it has engulfed college education.

It's infuriating to see "society" contributing to what develops mass shooters. From what I've read most mass shootings are done by white folks. So why ostracize them more? I don't get anything that happens in this world.

Agreed. It's definitely more in higher education, but it is a problem.

Its a sad time. Teen suicide is out of control. I mean we have kids killing themselves over someone else's opinions of them.

I think its safe to say that all the Anti Bullying policies, bullying awareness, etc. hasn't really worked. The problem isn't only the bullies, it is also the bullied kids that let mere words destroy them. This is an issue that needs work from both sides.

My goal in life is to raise both my kids to know their own worth, and to not give a f*ck about what other people think of them. I want my kids to have thick enough skin to not let someone's hateful words break them down.

I'm torn on if Eric and Dylan would feel more at ease if they were born later and raised in this culture that we have now. I think Eric would be pretty staunchly pro gun and Republican and mad that his voice would be stifled even more. Dylan wasn't into the touchy feely stuff, they would say "it's okay to get therapy Dylan, we all do!" and Dylan would probably roll his eyes and say "NO" Though the bullying would be looked at and punished more, but the ketchup thing would be probably streamed on FB live.

Dylan's parents already seemed super progressive for the time.

Also mentioned about that they were still upper middle class cis , straight white men.

I dare say there should be intervention for the bullies as well. Get them some help and ask what is it about THEM that makes them want to tear others down.

There has to be a reason that kids today claim to relate so much to E&D still. It's because bullying will always be a problem at some level. This is another reason why people will likely remain interested in Columbine.

Mine was bullying absolutely. I agree that bullying is one of the top reasons people still relate to E/D and are also interested.

They also left writing, videos etc. behind. We also live in a superficial culture, you have "normal" looking/attractive people committing murder people seem to take more notice then if some slovenly kid who is flunking out brings a gun to school. It's sad but it doesn't seem to have the same pizzazz to the media.

Lanza killed little kids so we are all outraged. Cho had a huge kill count and sent his manifesto to the news unlike some people...

Holmes didn't kill himself, he also tried to be as "crazy" as possible. There is the trial too, we got to see a mass murderer in the flesh stand trial AND the foreman of the jury was a Columbine survivor.

Littlelo wrote:

There has to be a reason that kids today claim to relate so much to E&D still. It's because bullying will always be a problem at some level. This is another reason why people will likely remain interested in Columbine.

Sad but very true. Bullying will never go away no matter how many Anti Bullying programs/policies are enforced.

That cis shit pisses me off too. Labeling people contributes to the problem imo. Labeling people makes them less people and more of a group, way easier to dehumanize them and target them.

I find it hard to stomach a lot of this too. I'm more of a centrist with liberal leanings but as someone who had a TON of health problems and was bullied growing up, being treated as an "other" and more special than anyone else is not fun. Now that I'm older but also a white woman with a post graduate degree who still struggles with things like image and my self esteem, I'm not taken as seriously because of who I am.. my struggles don't count anymore. I hope that made sense.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I find it hard to stomach a lot of this too. I'm more of a centrist with liberal leanings but as someone who had a TON of health problems and was bullied growing up, being treated as an "other" and more special than anyone else is not fun. Now that I'm older but also a white woman with a post graduate degree who still struggles with things like image and my self esteem, I'm not taken as seriously because of who I am.. my struggles don't count anymore. I hope that made sense.

Makes perfect sense. Welcome to the new PC the all embracing, dancing, clapping world of love.

I don't agree with most of Eric's journal rantings, however his stance against PC is something I can understand. I don't remember ever being that passionate or aware of topics like he was at 16-17.

That is another reason they felt so different from their peers. Another reason E and D probably got along. Eric referred to most people as robots, Dylan said they were zombies.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

There has to be a reason that kids today claim to relate so much to E&D still. It's because bullying will always be a problem at some level. This is another reason why people will likely remain interested in Columbine.

Sad but very true. Bullying will never go away no matter how many Anti Bullying programs/policies are enforced.

I still think we should fight it. It messes people's heads up. I only got bullied a little bit but to this day cannot shake my haunting memories of being humiliated.
Yet in spite of the fact that I was scrawny and felt weak and inferior all through my high school years yet do not at all identify with Eric and Dylan. No matter how much "understanding" we give them, it's still ultimately a matter of them killing INNOCENT people.

Littlelo wrote:

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

>The young ones can't understand the significance of Columbine because some weren't even born. They are eerily now stuck as teenagers even though they'd be 36 now. I feel weird when I say things like "I still think Eric looks handsome in that picture." Then I'm like "he's so young, 17!" Then I remember duh, so were you.

I have a small list of questions that I ask younger people about to see how much they know about the major crime events of the '90s (Ruby Ridge, Waco, Oklahoma City, Columbine, Slobodan Milosevic, etc.) to see if they've even heard of them.  A few of them are aware of Columbine and a few are also aware that this is the incident that is why they hear so much about "bullying."  

E&D may have just been born in the wrong decade...there's been more sensitivity and political correctness in schools for awhile.  Remember what Jonah Hill says in "21 Jump Street," "what's cool now? Comic books, being sensitive?  I'd be king of this school if I'd been born later"

E&D may have a hero status for some born long after the fact similar to, say, how young people who didn't live through the 60s might have a fascination with Charles Manson.  If kids become fascinated with the 90s, which were, as it was, a decade totally drowning in teen culture for much of its existence; maybe they miss all that "fun angst" that they didn't get to experience first hand.  I completed a full run of "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" awhile back and I gotta say, it hasn't aged well.  

You raise a lot of interesting points.

Eric seemed to be very anti-PC from his writings, so I wonder if he would be even more angry with society based on how different things are in schools now. Although it would be better for both E&D if bullying had been treated the way it is now when they were in school. Unfortunately, their actions are probably a big part of why bullying is taken so much more serious now.

I think kids who were born after 1999 do have a fascination with the culture of the 90s. I also think people who grew up in that time and have memories of it find some nostalgia in delving back into the times that E&D grew up in.

Eric would most likely be a Trump voter today. He mocked/trashed absolutely everything. Not sure about ol' Dyllie-dally. Eric's website was at the DAWN of people being total doucherags on the Internet, he started a trend. I wonder what was the more influential on bad Internet culture in 1999--Eric's website, or that dude dancing on the webcam in "American Pie." What year was Heaven's Gate cult suicide? (Wonder how many millennial kids have ever read up on THAT.) We'd probably have Eric applauding shit like Charlottesville if he were alive today.

The word "emo" gets thrown around at Dylan a lot but that word wasn't popularized until 2001 when Weezer had their comeback (I've got to be correct about that!) and Columbine was 1999.

Anybody probably ends up with cornball nostalgia of some kind for the times they grew up in. I had a pet theory that 90s nostalgia, while prevalent, hasn't hit people as hard as 70s/80s nostalgia has because maybe the world hasn't changed as much since the 90s to now, as it did from, say, the late 60s to 1990? Obviously 9/11 was after Columbine and lots changed because of that, but I'm still convinced that earlier changes through the 60s, 70s, 80s were greater.
The other thing about the 90s: the rise of irony/postmodernism/cultural self-awareness made most silly trends in the 90s die very quickly--people trashing trends the week they happened. The Macarena comes immediately to mind. Hey, maybe somebody could call up Ralph Larkin and ask him! (That's only partially a joke, some of the points Larkin made tying Eric to the angry-white-guy stuff in the 90s was probably valid.)

I think Eric would be irritated that Trump was a former reality TV star. He probably would have supported McCain back in the day, being a war hero.

Dylan would have been apathetic/possible Bernie Bro.

I imagine the way I feel about Adam Lanza and Cho is the same way some people feel about E and D. I have NO sympathy or empathy for those two at all. I'm not interested in learning about them. Maybe cursory glances to learn about the human psyche but I don't delve as much as with E and D.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

There has to be a reason that kids today claim to relate so much to E&D still. It's because bullying will always be a problem at some level. This is another reason why people will likely remain interested in Columbine.

Sad but very true. Bullying will never go away no matter how many Anti Bullying programs/policies are enforced.

I still think we should fight it.  It messes people's heads up.  I only got bullied a little bit but to this day cannot shake my haunting memories of being humiliated.  
Yet in spite of the fact that I was scrawny and felt weak and inferior all through my high school years yet do not at all identify with Eric and Dylan.  No matter how much "understanding" we give them, it's still ultimately a matter of them killing INNOCENT people.  

Oh I agree, we just need to rethink the approach. Because clearly the current Anti Bullying policies are not working.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I imagine the way I feel about Adam Lanza and Cho is the same way some people feel about E and D. I have NO sympathy or empathy for those two at all. I'm not interested in learning about them. Maybe cursory glances to learn about the human psyche but I don't delve as much as with E and D.

Don't you think it's ironic that you acknowledge that most people have no empathy for Eric and Dylan and refuse to learn about them or see them as people but you are doing the same thing with other mass killers? How would you know whether the other two deserve your empathy if you don't know anything about them and it's only the humanity you glimpsed inside of Eric and Dylan upon learning about them that allows you to maintain empathy for them in the face of their vicious violence?

I absolutely do. It's something I'm trying to understand about myself. I've always assumed it was because Columbine happened when I was young and I look at it through different eyes than other cases.

If I did know more about the others I'd be able to have more empathy I'm sure.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I think Eric would be irritated that Trump was a former reality TV star. He probably would have supported McCain back in the day, being a war hero.

Dylan would have been apathetic/possible Bernie Bro.

I imagine the way I feel about Adam Lanza and Cho is the same way some people feel about E and D. I have NO sympathy or empathy for those two at all. I'm not interested in learning about them. Maybe cursory glances to learn about the human psyche but I don't delve as much as with E and D.

Okay, yes, Eric would have likely supported Bush and McCain and let's just say we don't want to know what he'd think of Obamarama.
Dylan being a Bernie Bro seems a stretch (did he care for socialism?) I'm going with "apathetic" on that one.

It depends on who you want to feel sorry for: people who were so mentally deranged (Lanza, Cho) that there seems to be little that could have been done to help or stop them, or people who had less of an excuse (E&D) and could have gotten help.
Elliot Rodger I can't feel sorry for in the slightest. What a PATHETIC TWERP.

Lunkhead McGrath wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I think Eric would be irritated that Trump was a former reality TV star. He probably would have supported McCain back in the day, being a war hero.

Dylan would have been apathetic/possible Bernie Bro.

I imagine the way I feel about Adam Lanza and Cho is the same way some people feel about E and D. I have NO sympathy or empathy for those two at all. I'm not interested in learning about them. Maybe cursory glances to learn about the human psyche but I don't delve as much as with E and D.

Okay, yes, Eric would have likely supported Bush and McCain and let's just say we don't want to know what he'd think of Obamarama.  
Dylan being a Bernie Bro seems a stretch (did he care for socialism?)  I'm going with "apathetic" on that one.

It depends on who you want to feel sorry for: people who were so mentally deranged (Lanza, Cho) that there seems to be little that could have been done to help or stop them, or people who had less of an excuse (E&D) and could have gotten help.  
Elliot Rodger I can't feel sorry for in the slightest.  What a PATHETIC TWERP.  

Brooks Brown is most certainly a socialist. I am not sure about Dylan. At times he did seem like he would lean toward Bernie but maybe he would have been into anarchy....I think for the most part if you discredit Eric's writings and took their age and lack of life experience into account we would have no idea where they would have fallen politically once they matured.

Quote :

Dylan being a Bernie Bro seems a stretch (did he care for socialism?

Being a "Bernie Bro" doesn't necessarily mean you are a socialist. Bernie in his election has described at most social democratic policy but nothing socialist. It would be considered socialist if he gave workers control of the means of production but at most what he planned to do was just capitalism with a bigger safety net.

I imagine after all this time they would have had a more focused and nuanced view . When I was that age I was so liberal and a bleeding heart Democrat. Now I feel like I try to remain very balanced.

Then again Dylan was very big on self-reliance. He may have been someone who would say pick yourself up by your bootstraps and stop whining.