We need to talk about Eric...

Since A Mother's Reckoning came out I returned to researching Columbine and joined the forum I have been a little Dylan focused for lack of a better phrase but find myself going back to Eric in my research, which has matured a great deal from the first thoughts I had about Eric when I started to learn about Columbine when I was 17 and saw his picture flash on my TV with the whole "these are the perpetrators of this horrible act" which of course I thought was horrible since day one but the case has always intrigued me. I took almost 18 years off from the case, though I think I checked in from time to time because I remember seeing the leaked photos, Hitmen for Hire and Dylan's journal.

A few things I've been thinking about Eric and how he's been portrayed in the media and by others and where it all came from. I think it is interesting.

First off, Eric as a psychopathic ladies man. Eric was always portrayed as the dark, brooding and angry leader. Though from most accounts girls picked up a vibe from Eric that they didn't want to deal with. Dylan on the other hand seemed to have a lot more girls who were interested in him. Stories of secret crushes, him going on a few dates with Kristen while taking Robyn to the prom.. kind of shows Dylan as more of a "ladies man" than Eric. Where does this come from? Was it just Cullen? He asked girls out but I know he had girls ask other girls out for him, which even if I did like someone if they didn't ask me but had a friend do it, at that age I would think it was a joke and I would say no, because I wouldn't want to be embarrassed.

I also wonder about his friendship with Dylan. What was it about Dylan that was so intriguing? Was it that Eric could manipulate him or was it that Dylan all in all never wanted to let anyone down. Which is a common theme you hear when it comes to Dylan. Eric burned bridges with most of their friends, and I read even Chris started pulling away but Dylan stayed steadfast even when he told his mom "Eric is crazy"

Also Eric had Devon on his hit list and threatened her, yet Devon says Dylan was her best friend. If I had a best friend and his friend threatened my life I'd have an issue with it and would rethink my friendship.

Did Eric start copying Dylan when it came to his trench coat and music? Or was that initially Chirs Morris? I wonder if Eric not only wanting to create a persona about him but maybe also wanted a group of people to be by his side in case he needed them. We know he picked fights and expected Chris to have his back.

Then Erik Veik, I don't think Eric ever mentions him but Eric speaks about someone coming to him for advice and guidance and he had Erik V. I wonder if he got a kick out of someone looking up to him so much. Kind of like how Eric glommed on to Dylan. Erik glommed on to Eric.

Do you believe what some of Dylans friends said about Eric telling Dylan "no one likes you, I'm your only friend"

Or do you think Dylan was more of the manipulator to Eric?

Then you watch nearly a half hour of senior year Eric being funny, dorky. shy and dark in Eric in Columbine and you change your tune, at least I do.

I 100% feel that Eric was influenced by Dylan. The evidence all points that way.

I think besides Cullen, another reason people think Eric as the evil leader and Dylan as the follower is just the journals.

Eric talking about killing people, doing crimes, even what people say is rape, and Dylan talking about love, being lonely, being sad and having no one.

I think most of the people with the above mentality are just "fans" of the crime. I hardly think any of them would think that way if they actually legitimately researched the crime. I have seen many opinions of both Eric and Dylan change on this board in my limited time here.

Oh and on top of that to add to more to what you said, Dylan also wanted to kill Devon at one point for her taking Zach away from him so I don't think he really cared who was on Eric's list

Lizpuff wrote:

Oh and on top of that to add to more to what you said, Dylan also wanted to kill Devon at one point for her taking Zach away from him so I don't think he really cared who was on Eric's list

I find the friendship with those 3 interesting. Zach, Devon and Dylan.

Up until the night before NBK Zach and Dylan spoke on the phone but Zach didn't seem to be thrilled with Dylan and not very close to Eric anymore.

Yet Devon always seemed to really feel close to Dylan, she may have won him over after a while.

I bet she was surprised to see him talk about her in that way in his writings.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Oh and on top of that to add to more to what you said, Dylan also wanted to kill Devon at one point for her taking Zach away from him so I don't think he really cared who was on Eric's list

I find the friendship with those 3 interesting. Zach, Devon and Dylan.

Up until the night before NBK Zach and Dylan spoke on the phone but Zach didn't seem to be thrilled with Dylan and not very close to Eric anymore.

Yet Devon always seemed to really feel close to Dylan, she may have won him over after a while.

I bet she was surprised to see him talk about her in that way in his writings.

I get weird vibes from Devon. I know they were friends but I feel almost like she was a friend like Brooks. Someone that became more of an acquaintance. I am just not sure that she was as close as she portrays. I think once Zach seemed to pull away a bit she also went away.

Lizpuff wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Oh and on top of that to add to more to what you said, Dylan also wanted to kill Devon at one point for her taking Zach away from him so I don't think he really cared who was on Eric's list

I find the friendship with those 3 interesting. Zach, Devon and Dylan.

Up until the night before NBK Zach and Dylan spoke on the phone but Zach didn't seem to be thrilled with Dylan and not very close to Eric anymore.

Yet Devon always seemed to really feel close to Dylan, she may have won him over after a while.

I bet she was surprised to see him talk about her in that way in his writings.

I get weird vibes from Devon.  I know they were friends but I feel almost like she was a friend like Brooks.  Someone that became more of an acquaintance.  I am just not sure that she was as close as she portrays.  I think once Zach seemed to pull away a bit she also went away.  

I get that vibe too.

I think since Dylan , regardless of what people think about his manipulative side, never wanted to let anyone down so if Devon needed someone to talk to he would be there and be kind. I wonder about the head kiss sometimes but I don’t know about him being her “best friend” it seems hyperbolic. I did notice in her interview recently she was wearing an onyx and silver ring like his.

I think he even writes something about feeling used by his friends.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Oh and on top of that to add to more to what you said, Dylan also wanted to kill Devon at one point for her taking Zach away from him so I don't think he really cared who was on Eric's list

I find the friendship with those 3 interesting. Zach, Devon and Dylan.

Up until the night before NBK Zach and Dylan spoke on the phone but Zach didn't seem to be thrilled with Dylan and not very close to Eric anymore.

Yet Devon always seemed to really feel close to Dylan, she may have won him over after a while.

I bet she was surprised to see him talk about her in that way in his writings.

I get weird vibes from Devon.  I know they were friends but I feel almost like she was a friend like Brooks.  Someone that became more of an acquaintance.  I am just not sure that she was as close as she portrays.  I think once Zach seemed to pull away a bit she also went away.  

I get that vibe too.

I think since Dylan , regardless of what people think about his manipulative side, never wanted to let anyone down so if Devon needed someone to talk to he would be there and be kind. I wonder about the head kiss sometimes but I don’t know about him being her “best friend” it seems hyperbolic. I did notice in her interview recently she was wearing an onyx and silver ring like his.

I think he even writes something about feeling used by his friends.

'
Interesting about the ring. I think the head kiss was something like he knew he would be gone soon and it would be his last time really seeing and interacting with her. I do think that the "good" side of Dylan was going to miss things and people in his life.

Lizpuff wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Oh and on top of that to add to more to what you said, Dylan also wanted to kill Devon at one point for her taking Zach away from him so I don't think he really cared who was on Eric's list

I find the friendship with those 3 interesting. Zach, Devon and Dylan.

Up until the night before NBK Zach and Dylan spoke on the phone but Zach didn't seem to be thrilled with Dylan and not very close to Eric anymore.

Yet Devon always seemed to really feel close to Dylan, she may have won him over after a while.

I bet she was surprised to see him talk about her in that way in his writings.

I get weird vibes from Devon.  I know they were friends but I feel almost like she was a friend like Brooks.  Someone that became more of an acquaintance.  I am just not sure that she was as close as she portrays.  I think once Zach seemed to pull away a bit she also went away.  

I get that vibe too.

I think since Dylan , regardless of what people think about his manipulative side, never wanted to let anyone down so if Devon needed someone to talk to he would be there and be kind. I wonder about the head kiss sometimes but I don’t know about him being her “best friend” it seems hyperbolic. I did notice in her interview recently she was wearing an onyx and silver ring like his.

I think he even writes something about feeling used by his friends.

'
Interesting about the ring.  I think the head kiss was something like he knew he would be gone soon and it would be his last time really seeing and interacting with her.  I do think that the "good" side of Dylan was going to miss things and people in his life.

I agree, probably why he went to prom too and didn’t bail on the video project that Monday. He wanted to give people he cared about nice memories since NBK was going to turn him into a monster.

Lizpuff wrote:

Oh and on top of that to add to more to what you said, Dylan also wanted to kill Devon at one point for her taking Zach away from him so I don't think he really cared who was on Eric's list

There's also the fact that some of their friends were in the bomb's blast radius that day.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I also wonder about his friendship with Dylan. What was it about Dylan that was so intriguing? Was it that Eric could manipulate him or was it that Dylan all in all never wanted to let anyone down. Which is a common theme you hear when it comes to Dylan. Eric burned bridges with most of their friends, and I read even Chris started pulling away but Dylan stayed steadfast even when he told his mom "Eric is crazy"

Also Eric had Devon on his hit list and threatened her, yet Devon says Dylan was her best friend. If I had a best friend and his friend threatened my life I'd have an issue with it and would rethink my friendship.

I originally meant to post part of this in your thread about changes in Eric and Dylan but I never did and it might be better here. I know that this thread is meant to be about Eric so don't be put off by the fact that I am focusing so much on Dylan and that I am once again obsessing about dates I just think that Dylan and Eric's closeness originated almost entirely from Zack getting a girlfriend and spending more time with her and that Eric was not manipulating Dylan at all. It was more likely that as Dylan's depression and resentment increased, Eric was the one who was there to commiserate, and it probably took their friendship to a new level.

Zack actually provides some important information in his statement when he talks about the summer between sophomore and junior year, which would be 1997.

Zack said that this was the summer that they all starting working at Blackjack and it was also when he met Devon and they started spending a lot of time together. He went on a trip to Pennsylvania for two weeks at some point and it was during this time that Eric and Dylan built their first pipe bomb.

This was what Dylan wrote about Zack and Devon in July of 1997.

Quote :

7-23-97
A changing time

The _______ Situation

It is not good for me right now (like it ever is) . . . but anyway . . . My best friend ever: the friend who shared, experimented, laughed, took chances with & appreciated me more than any friend ever did has been ordained ... “passed on” ... in my book. Ever since ______ (who I wouldn’t mind killing) has loved him ... that’s the only place he’s been with her ... if anyone had any idea how sad I am ... I mean we were the TEAM. When him & I first were friends, well I finally found someone who was like me: who appreciated me & shared very common interests. Ever since 7th grade, I’ve felt lonely ... when ______ came around, I finally felt happiness (sometimes) we did cigars, drinking, sabotage to houses, EVERYTHING for the first time together & now that he’s “moved on” I feel so lonely, without a friend. Oh well, maybe he’ll come around → ... I hope.

It was shortly after this that Dylan's emotional and behavioral issues intensified dramatically.

By September of 1997, he was writing in his journal about getting a gun to kill himself. This marks the transition from the passive suicidal ideation that was present in his writing from the beginning to the active formulation of a plan to commit suicide.

It was only two months later that Dylan first mentioned using the gun in a killing spree instead. For those who want to blame Eric for this, we know that while they did have a close relationship at this time, Dylan wrote in the same journal entry that "Eric will be getting further away soon" (possibly in reference to Eric dating Sasha and the assumption that this would be a Zach/Devon situation all over again) and more importantly, it appears that this plan had nothing to do with Eric because Dylan's phrasing is very clear: " ______ will get me a gun, I'll go on my killing spree against anyone I want." It wasn't NBK and it wasn't even "NBK." It was a solo plan.

And a few months later, in February 1998, Dylan writes his NBK fantasy about him and his love snapping and having their revenge on society. There is still no mention of Eric being involved in this revenge plan.

In the same period of time, Dylan was screwing up all over the place. In September of 1997, he got in trouble for the locker "hacking" incident. In January, he tried to start a rumble with a bunch of freshman. Four months later, he was suspended again over defacing a locker.

He got a speeding ticket around February 1998 and another ticket in March 1998 for purposely going through a red light when he thought that no one was watching.

Also notable was an emergency room visit sometime in late September of 1997. Dylan was in so much pain that his parents thought he had appendicitis and took him to the ER but nothing was physically wrong with him. As his mother notes, somatic symptoms like unexplained stomach pain can reflect the emotional distress that goes along with depression.

And of course, there is the van incident in January. So getting back to his relationship with Eric... Taken alone, you could try to blame the van incident on Eric's influence and say that Eric was manipulating him but in the context of everything else, it becomes clear that Dylan was very troubled all on his own. And if that is true, and we know that Dylan was not merely a follower, then how likely is it that Eric was the sole driving influence behind NBK?

If you take a look at some of Eric's grudges, my feeling is that these grudges could be Dylan's behalf. Why would Eric dislike Devon? It's not clear but I have only seen evidence that Dylan actually had a reason to hold a grudge against her. First, there was the jealousy over "stealing" his best friend which led to him saying that he "wouldn't mind killing her" and there was the vague incident with Nate sending her threatening e-mails because she was "saying things to get Dylan in trouble." For some reason, Devon didn't think that Dylan had any problem with her at all and went to the school administration to complain about Eric. Is it possible that Dylan was saying negative things about Devon to Eric and that is why Eric seemed to have a problem with her? Eric was obvious about who he disliked but maybe, Dylan kept his animosity quiet and only shared it with people he was close to. Clearly, he wasn't going to complain about Devon to Zack so Eric was the obvious choice and maybe Eric was pissed off at her for Dylan. If Nate was inspired to send her nasty e-mails on Dylan's behalf, then is it that much of a stretch to wonder if Eric had similar feelings for similar reasons?

I would have the same question about why Eric had some unexplained problem with Zack over the summer of 1998. He and Zack didn't seem to have any obvious problems and even Zack couldn't say why Eric was angry at him but if we speculate that Dylan was talking to Eric about how Zack abandoned him for a girl, then maybe it would make sense. There's also the fact, which Screamingophelia has brought up, that Zack was saying negative things about Dylan even before he committed the massacre. Maybe Eric or Dylan found out about this and it pissed Eric off?

Over this summer, Sue says that Dylan spent a lot of time with Nate and he even went to Devon's birthday party in July but Sue doesn't mention Zack by name when she talks about the events of that summer.

In Dylan's diary, he wrote this during the summer of 1998.

Quote :

6-10-98
...
my friends (at my choice) are depleting & collapsing under each other (Eric & _____) like I thought they would

Aside from that, he mostly obsesses about his true love in his journal this summer. It sounds like Dylan was distancing himself from Eric at this time and possibly Zack too, although the name is redacted, and spending a lot of time fantasizing about being with his love in the halcyon but he does manage to get in a reference to how the "zombies will pay" in this same entry which once again suggests that NBK was not really dependent on Eric at all.

I've pointed this out before too, but right around the same time, it seems that Eric was considering bringing someone else in on his plan instead of going NBK with Dylan, which may confirm that their friendship was wavering and that Eric's massacre plans were actually separate from Dylan's for a long time.

Quote :

6/12/98
but alas, I have realized that Yes, the human race is still indeed doomed. It just needs a few kick starts, like me, and hell, maybe even _____.

That's another interesting thing. Eric talks about the reaction to NBK several times, a few months apart. There is a slight difference. I believe that in Eric's case, it also seems that at first he was not really set on Dylan as a partner. It was only in October that he finally started to talk about it as if Dylan was completely in on it.

Quote :

4/12/98
When I go NBK and people say things like, “oh, it was so tragic,” or “oh he is crazy!” or “It was so bloody.”

Quote :

6/12/98
Why should I have to explain myself to you survivors when half of this shit I say you shitheads won’t understand and if you can then woopie fucking do. That just means you have something to say as my reason for killing. And the majority of the audience won’t even understand my motives either! They’ll say “ah, he’s crazy, he’s insane, worthless!

Quote :

10/23/98
Someone’s bound to say “what were they thinking?” when we go NBK or when we were planning it
...
It will be very tricky getting all of our supplies, explosives, weaponry, ammo, and then hiding it all and then actually planting it all so we can achieve our goal. But if we get busted any time, we start killing then and there, just like Wilks from the ALIENS books
...
Heh, imagine THAT you fuckers, picture half of Denver on fire just from me and Vodka.

In the basement tapes, Dylan says that they have been planning for over eight months. It was around May 1998 when Dylan wrote in Eric's yearbook which would be almost a year before NBK so that suggests that they talked about it for at least a few months before it became more than a fantasy and the planning really started.

If we believe 8 months is true, it would put the start of the planning right around the beginning of their senior year, in early August 1998, but if you look at Eric's bomb list, it seems that he began writing out the chart of quantities and qualities 10/22/98. Obviously, Eric and Dylan had started making the bombs long before that and if they already had a bunch saved up the idea must have been simmering, but when we look at the fact that Eric made six Beta batch pipe bombs between 10/22 and 10/23, I really get the sense that this was the day that it officially became a "plan."
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So, I think it's interesting how this lines up with his journal entry that seems to suggest that Dylan was finally officially in on the plan and they were going to do this together. As far as I can tell, aside from his first journal entry where he mentioned that he and "V" were the only ones with self-awareness, the only mentions of Dylan in Eric's journal occur on 10/23/98 and later (and he mentions Dylan in eight out of the last 11 entries after mentioning him once in the first nine entries). The rest of the content in between is mainly Eric ranting about humanity and swearing that he's going to kill people who wronged him.

Well, that's a lot of rambling but hopefully it means something to someone. My opinion is that both of them may have taken a long time to decide whether they were truly going to commit an attack and both of them considered doing it solo or with other people before the partnership became solid. To me, this would mean that neither one of them was manipulated or pushed into the attack by the other. It was more like everything that was already inside of them aligned and they had no one but each other to share ideas with so they came to the conclusions that led to NBK.

Dylan lost Zack, felt abandoned and was terribly suicidal so he needed someone to help him get through high school and Eric was there. Eric didn't have any close friends and was happy to find a true comrade in Dylan. NBK made perfect sense to both of them since Eric and Dylan both didn't want to live in a world that works this way and they both wanted revenge. Both of them were homicidal and even Eric was suicidal to some extent, though it probably for slightly different reasons than Dylan. Neither one would have gone through with it without the other's support so they did influence each other but you can't say that either one was the main driving force with the information that is available.

And Sue's claim (probably based on Cullen's "fact checking," if we're being honest) that Dylan wasn't in on a plan for homicide until January of 1999 is certainly wrong, in my opinion.

eric was an overacheiver. dylan was an underacheiver. dylan came up with the plan and knew what to do and get and eric got most of the weapons and materiels

sscc wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I also wonder about his friendship with Dylan. What was it about Dylan that was so intriguing? Was it that Eric could manipulate him or was it that Dylan all in all never wanted to let anyone down. Which is a common theme you hear when it comes to Dylan. Eric burned bridges with most of their friends, and I read even Chris started pulling away but Dylan stayed steadfast even when he told his mom "Eric is crazy"

Also Eric had Devon on his hit list and threatened her, yet Devon says Dylan was her best friend. If I had a best friend and his friend threatened my life I'd have an issue with it and would rethink my friendship.

I originally meant to post part of this in your thread about changes in Eric and Dylan but I never did and it might be better here. I know that this thread is meant to be about Eric so don't be put off by the fact that I am focusing so much on Dylan and that I am once again obsessing about dates I just think that Dylan and Eric's closeness originated almost entirely from Zack getting a girlfriend and spending more time with her and that Eric was not manipulating Dylan at all. It was more likely that as Dylan's depression and resentment increased, Eric was the one who was there to commiserate, and it probably took their friendship to a new level.

Zack actually provides some important information in his statement when he talks about the summer between sophomore and junior year, which would be 1997.

Zack said that this was the summer that they all starting working at Blackjack and it was also when he met Devon and they started spending a lot of time together. He went on a trip to Pennsylvania for two weeks at some point and it was during this time that Eric and Dylan built their first pipe bomb.

This was what Dylan wrote about Zack and Devon in July of 1997.

Quote :

7-23-97
A changing time

The _______ Situation

It is not good for me right now (like it ever is) . . . but anyway . . . My best friend ever: the friend who shared, experimented, laughed, took chances with & appreciated me more than any friend ever did has been ordained ... “passed on” ... in my book. Ever since ______ (who I wouldn’t mind killing) has loved him ... that’s the only place he’s been with her ... if anyone had any idea how sad I am ... I mean we were the TEAM. When him & I first were friends, well I finally found someone who was like me: who appreciated me & shared very common interests. Ever since 7th grade, I’ve felt lonely ... when ______ came around, I finally felt happiness (sometimes) we did cigars, drinking, sabotage to houses, EVERYTHING for the first time together & now that he’s “moved on” I feel so lonely, without a friend. Oh well, maybe he’ll come around → ... I hope.

It was shortly after this that Dylan's emotional and behavioral issues intensified dramatically.

By September of 1997, he was writing in his journal about getting a gun to kill himself. This marks the transition from the passive suicidal ideation that was present in his writing from the beginning to the active formulation of a plan to commit suicide.

It was only two months later that Dylan first mentioned using the gun in a killing spree instead. For those who want to blame Eric for this, we know that while they did have a close relationship at this time, Dylan wrote in the same journal entry that "Eric will be getting further away soon" (possibly in reference to Eric dating Sasha and the assumption that this would be a Zach/Devon situation all over again) and more importantly, it appears that this plan had nothing to do with Eric because Dylan's phrasing is very clear: " ______ will get me a gun, I'll go on my killing spree against anyone I want." It wasn't NBK and it wasn't even "NBK." It was a solo plan.

And a few months later, in February 1998, Dylan writes his NBK fantasy about him and his love snapping and having their revenge on society. There is still no mention of Eric being involved in this revenge plan.

In the same period of time, Dylan was screwing up all over the place. In September of 1997, he got in trouble for the locker "hacking" incident. In January, he tried to start a rumble with a bunch of freshman. Four months later, he was suspended again over defacing a locker.

He got a speeding ticket around February 1998 and another ticket in March 1998 for purposely going through a red light when he thought that no one was watching.

Also notable was an emergency room visit sometime in late September of 1997. Dylan was in so much pain that his parents thought he had appendicitis and took him to the ER but nothing was physically wrong with him. As his mother notes, somatic symptoms like unexplained stomach pain can reflect the emotional distress that goes along with depression.

And of course, there is the van incident in January. So getting back to his relationship with Eric... Taken alone, you could try to blame the van incident on Eric's influence and say that Eric was manipulating him but in the context of everything else, it becomes clear that Dylan was very troubled all on his own. And if that is true, and we know that Dylan was not merely a follower, then how likely is it that Eric was the sole driving influence behind NBK?

If you take a look at some of Eric's grudges, my feeling is that these grudges could be Dylan's behalf. Why would Eric dislike Devon? It's not clear but I have only seen evidence that Dylan actually had a reason to hold a grudge against her. First, there was the jealousy over "stealing" his best friend which led to him saying that he "wouldn't mind killing her" and there was the vague incident with Nate sending her threatening e-mails because she was "saying things to get Dylan in trouble." For some reason, Devon didn't think that Dylan had any problem with her at all and went to the school administration to complain about Eric. Is it possible that Dylan was saying negative things about Devon to Eric and that is why Eric seemed to have a problem with her? Eric was obvious about who he disliked but maybe, Dylan kept his animosity quiet and only shared it with people he was close to. Clearly, he wasn't going to complain about Devon to Zack so Eric was the obvious choice and maybe Eric was pissed off at her for Dylan. If Nate was inspired to send her nasty e-mails on Dylan's behalf, then is it that much of a stretch to wonder if Eric had similar feelings for similar reasons?

I would have the same question about why Eric had some unexplained problem with Zack over the summer of 1998. He and Zack didn't seem to have any obvious problems and even Zack couldn't say why Eric was angry at him but if we speculate that Dylan was talking to Eric about how Zack abandoned him for a girl, then maybe it would make sense. There's also the fact, which Screamingophelia has brought up, that Zack was saying negative things about Dylan even before he committed the massacre. Maybe Eric or Dylan found out about this and it pissed Eric off?

Over this summer, Sue says that Dylan spent a lot of time with Nate and he even went to Devon's birthday party in July but Sue doesn't mention Zack by name when she talks about the events of that summer.

In Dylan's diary, he wrote this during the summer of 1998.

Quote :

6-10-98
...
my friends (at my choice) are depleting & collapsing under each other (Eric & _____) like I thought they would

Aside from that, he mostly obsesses about his true love in his journal this summer. It sounds like Dylan was distancing himself from Eric at this time and possibly Zack too, although the name is redacted, and spending a lot of time fantasizing about being with his love in the halcyon but he does manage to get in a reference to how the "zombies will pay" in this same entry which once again suggests that NBK was not really dependent on Eric at all.

I've pointed this out before too, but right around the same time, it seems that Eric was considering bringing someone else in on his plan instead of going NBK with Dylan, which may confirm that their friendship was wavering and that Eric's massacre plans were actually separate from Dylan's for a long time.

Quote :

6/12/98
but alas, I have realized that Yes, the human race is still indeed doomed. It just needs a few kick starts, like me, and hell, maybe even _____.

That's another interesting thing. Eric talks about the reaction to NBK several times, a few months apart. There is a slight difference. I believe that in Eric's case, it also seems that at first he was not really set on Dylan as a partner. It was only in October that he finally started to talk about it as if Dylan was completely in on it.

Quote :

4/12/98
When I go NBK and people say things like, “oh, it was so tragic,” or “oh he is crazy!” or “It was so bloody.”

Quote :

6/12/98
Why should I have to explain myself to you survivors when half of this shit I say you shitheads won’t understand and if you can then woopie fucking do. That just means you have something to say as my reason for killing. And the majority of the audience won’t even understand my motives either! They’ll say “ah, he’s crazy, he’s insane, worthless!

Quote :

10/23/98
Someone’s bound to say “what were they thinking?” when we go NBK or when we were planning it
...
It will be very tricky getting all of our supplies, explosives, weaponry, ammo, and then hiding it all and then actually planting it all so we can achieve our goal. But if we get busted any time, we start killing then and there, just like Wilks from the ALIENS books
...
Heh, imagine THAT you fuckers, picture half of Denver on fire just from me and Vodka.

In the basement tapes, Dylan says that they have been planning for over eight months. It was around May 1998 when Dylan wrote in Eric's yearbook which would be almost a year before NBK so that suggests that they talked about it for at least a few months before it became more than a fantasy and the planning really started.

If we believe 8 months is true, it would put the start of the planning right around the beginning of their senior year, in early August 1998, but if you look at Eric's bomb list, it seems that he began writing out the chart of quantities and qualities 10/22/98. Obviously, Eric and Dylan had started making the bombs long before that and if they already had a bunch saved up the idea must have been simmering, but when we look at the fact that Eric made six Beta batch pipe bombs between 10/22 and 10/23, I really get the sense that this was the day that it officially became a "plan."
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So, I think it's interesting how this lines up with his journal entry that seems to suggest that Dylan was finally officially in on the plan and they were going to do this together. As far as I can tell, aside from his first journal entry where he mentioned that he and "V" were the only ones with self-awareness, the only mentions of Dylan in Eric's journal occur on 10/23/98 and later (and he mentions Dylan in eight out of the last 11 entries after mentioning him once in the first nine entries). The rest of the content in between is mainly Eric ranting about humanity and swearing that he's going to kill people who wronged him.

Well, that's a lot of rambling but hopefully it means something to someone. My opinion is that both of them may have taken a long time to decide whether they were truly going to commit an attack and both of them considered doing it solo or with other people before the partnership became solid. To me, this would mean that neither one of them was manipulated or pushed into the attack by the other. It was more like everything that was already inside of them aligned and they had no one but each other to share ideas with so they came to the conclusions that led to NBK.

Dylan lost Zack, felt abandoned and was terribly suicidal so he needed someone to help him get through high school and Eric was there. Eric didn't have any close friends and was happy to find a true comrade in Dylan. NBK made perfect sense to both of them since Eric and Dylan both didn't want to live in a world that works this way and they both wanted revenge. Both of them were homicidal and even Eric was suicidal to some extent, though it probably for slightly different reasons than Dylan. Neither one would have gone through with it without the other's support so they did influence each other but you can't say that either one was the main driving force with the information that is available.

And Sue's claim (probably based on Cullen's "fact checking," if we're being honest) that Dylan wasn't in on a plan for homicide until January of 1999 is certainly wrong, in my opinion.

This is amazing Sometime tomorrow I’m going to dissect it and respond but this is a really great write up. It puts a lot of things into context that were kind of jumbled in my head. The dates helped a lot.

I’ve also been thinking. I wonder if Eric and Dylan even realized the kind of vibe they gave off? Specifically Eric gave off a more dangerous and “off” vibe than Dylan. Especially at that age if you hear something enough you just kind of become it. Or you become super self-conscious about the vibe you’re giving off or you lean into it and just start dressing differently etc.

I don't believe Dylan's idea was motivated by suicide but instead by homicide. I also don't believe he killed himself to fulfill some desire to end his life; but to avoid punishment.

I think Dylan and Eric had very similar mentality.

Dylan started screaming at the beginning that he wanted to kill himself.. now it he was JUST suicidal he could have just shot himself in the cafeteria...

So I think he was both but I think they were both ruled by two different motivations.

Yet he never even attempted to commit suicide until after he killed other people which only points towards avoiding punishment.

He left it to the last possible minute too, Eric had already offed himself.

Dylan was obsessed with the macabre earlier than Eric and I am sure the thought of murder crossed his mind long before him too.

Ivan wrote:

Yet he never even attempted to commit suicide until after he killed other people which only points towards avoiding punishment.

He left it to the last possible minute too, Eric had already offed himself.

Dylan was obsessed with the macabre earlier than Eric and I am sure the thought of murder crossed his mind long before him too.

I would agree with this. I think Dylan was way too much of a coward to end his life in his bedroom alone. I think he still kept holding out hope for a while that things would get better in his life, but they didn't.

And by the end he was in a corner. He had killed people, cops were closing in, and his best friend just blew the top of his head off. What else was he left with? Prison would have eaten him alive

Lizpuff wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Yet he never even attempted to commit suicide until after he killed other people which only points towards avoiding punishment.

He left it to the last possible minute too, Eric had already offed himself.

Dylan was obsessed with the macabre earlier than Eric and I am sure the thought of murder crossed his mind long before him too.

I would agree with this.  I think Dylan was way too much of a coward to end his life in his bedroom alone.  I think he still kept holding out hope for a while that things would get better in his life, but they didn't.  

And by the end he was in a corner.  He had killed people, cops were closing in, and his best friend just blew the top of his head off.  What else was he left with?  Prison would have eaten him alive

This is probably why Sue talks about murder/suicide prevention being suicide prevention too.

I do find it interesting the psychology behind someone who has to kill or do severe harm before dying.

I also think he could have traumatized people by just killing himself in the cafeteria during lunch time. Only physically hurting himself.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Yet he never even attempted to commit suicide until after he killed other people which only points towards avoiding punishment.

He left it to the last possible minute too, Eric had already offed himself.

Dylan was obsessed with the macabre earlier than Eric and I am sure the thought of murder crossed his mind long before him too.

I would agree with this.  I think Dylan was way too much of a coward to end his life in his bedroom alone.  I think he still kept holding out hope for a while that things would get better in his life, but they didn't.  

And by the end he was in a corner.  He had killed people, cops were closing in, and his best friend just blew the top of his head off.  What else was he left with?  Prison would have eaten him alive

This is probably why Sue talks about murder/suicide prevention being suicide prevention too.

I do find it interesting the psychology behind someone who has to kill or do severe harm before dying.

I also think he could have traumatized people by just killing himself in the cafeteria during lunch time. Only physically hurting himself.

True true. And if he would have slit his wrists at home alone, he would have hurt others as well. Sue, Tom, Byron, Eric and countless numbers of those who knew and cared for him would have been affected.

He hurt his family and friends far more than just killing himself would have.