What do you think about this?

Before the massacre, did Dylan only visit the college campus and pick out his dorm room because he wanted to keep up the facade for his parents or do you think he still considered it an option that he would attend it and not go through with NBK for some reason?

Interesting question. I think Dylan may have seriously considered aborting NBK at the 11th hour. I mean, he seemed pretty happy during prom night and during the day he went to go chose his college dorm. Too happy, in fact, to be a person feigning happiness. I'm sure deep down Dylan had doubts over going thru with NBK.

JDM87 wrote:

Interesting question. I think Dylan may have seriously considered aborting NBK at the 11th hour. I mean, he seemed  pretty happy during prom night and during the day he went to go chose his college dorm. Too happy, in fact, to be a person feigning happiness. I'm sure deep down Dylan had doubts over going thru with NBK.

Not true... Most people who have decided to kill themselves are very happy in the days/ weeks prior to doing so. I have read this countless times, it seems as they are happy they have "Found their escape".

deathmedic wrote:

JDM87 wrote:

Interesting question. I think Dylan may have seriously considered aborting NBK at the 11th hour. I mean, he seemed  pretty happy during prom night and during the day he went to go chose his college dorm. Too happy, in fact, to be a person feigning happiness. I'm sure deep down Dylan had doubts over going thru with NBK.

Not true... Most people who have decided to kill themselves are very happy in the days/ weeks prior to doing so. I have read this countless times, it seems as they are happy they have "Found their escape".

Yea, I am leaning towards agreeing with deathmedic. I think he was probably happy because he knew he was going to be dying within the next few days, not that he was genuinely happy.

With that being said, I think he only went to Arizona to pick out his dorm room so that his parents didn't become suspicious. I really don't think Dylan had seconds thoughts on going through with it. In fact, I think just the opposite. I think it was Eric who had the seconds thoughts and was trying to find ways out of it.

Jenn wrote:

I think it was Eric who had the seconds thoughts and was trying to find ways out of it.

I entirely agree.

I wish I'd somehow saved our conversation about this on that rebvodka board before it was closed down. (I don't know if you remember that, but we had a good conversation going in a thread there about this. A few others added to it, as well).

Yeah, never thought of it that way. Although I do feel Dylan may have wanted to abort the mission. He may have thought about the possibilities of when he leaves Columbine and goes to college, and so on. It's innate to us to have doubt over doing something that isn't morally correct and be chided for. However, Dylan probably realized - in his fucked up, melancholy-ridden mind - that the future wasn't worth persevering for.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

I think it was Eric who had the seconds thoughts and was trying to find ways out of it.

I entirely agree.

I wish I'd somehow saved our conversation about this on that rebvodka board before it was closed down. (I don't know if you remember that, but we had a good conversation going in a thread there about this. A few others added to it, as well).

The Rebvodka forum did open back up, but all of the threads are gone and you can't make any new ones. Pretty much you can log in to an empty forum. I have no idea what the owner of this forum is doing. And yes, I do remember our discussion about Eric and how we thought he might have wanted to back out. Here is the link to the Rebvodka forum.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

See? It' empty!

I doubt that Eric would be having second thoughts about it. I mean, it was him who truly instigated the idea of doing Columbine. Sure, Dylan brought it up casually during a journal entry in '97, but it was Eric who wanted to turn some twisted ambition into real-life gore. Dylan just wanted to go down there and "have fun", as he said himself. Eric wanted to have more than fun, he wanted to see Doom depicted in reality. Why would he doubt going thru with his plans? I mean, he got all the guns he wanted, he spent a year working on the plan and he hitched Dylan as his partner-in-crime. What would seriously make him hesitate over what he wanted to do?

JDM87 wrote:

I doubt that Eric would be having second thoughts about it. I mean, it was him who truly instigated the idea of doing Columbine. Sure, Dylan brought it up casually during a journal entry in '97, but it was Eric who wanted to turn some twisted ambition into real-life gore. Dylan just wanted to go down there and "have fun", as he said himself. Eric wanted to have more than fun, he wanted to see Doom depicted in reality. Why would he doubt going thru with his plans? I mean, he got all the guns he wanted, he spent a year working on the plan and he hitched Dylan as his partner-in-crime. What would seriously make him hesitate over what he wanted to do?

How do you know it was Eric's idea? How do you know that Dylan wasn't the first one who put the idea into Eric's head and then Eric ran with the idea? I seem to think it was Dylan's idea and he let Eric do all of the work. Also, if Eric wasn't having second thoughts, why was he leaving little clues all over the place?

Like telling his doctor he had murder/suicide thoughts, and leaving plans of NBK in the computers at the school, and leaving a little tape recorder in plain sight on his kitchen counter, for anyone to find.

I DO think it was Dylan who started the idea of going to shoot up Columbine, but then again, Dylan wanted to do that with Zach Heckler, not Eric. Eric maybe heard about Dylan's idea, as you said, and created a more darker fantasy to emulate. It was Eric who wanted to bomb Columbine, not Dylan. Dylan just wanted to go there and shoot the jocks with his buddy Zach. Eric wanted to create shit on a gigantic level, leaving ripples in the thoughts of those supposedly affected.

In answering your second question, I really have no clue. I think he was foreshadowing Columbine, and realized people wouldn't take him seriously for it. The thing that cuts me up the most is that his doctor never acted on Eric's mental problems. I mean, if I were to tell you I wanted to go on a homicidal killing spree, surely you'd do something more than just give me medicine?! It's inane, in short.

Dylan also left a few clues, namely his creative writing essay. It was all to foreshadow what they envisaged to happen. Well, at least that's my take on it.

JDM87 wrote:

Dylan also left a few clues, namely his creative writing essay. It was all to foreshadow what they envisaged to happen. Well, at least that's my take on it.

Oh yea, I had forgotten about Dylan's story in the creative writing class. Maybe they were both secretly hoping the other would back out? It is a shame we'll never know, but with everything I've heard and read, I just always get a feeling that Eric was the one having the most second thoughts. And him crying on video and saying how he didn't want to bond anymore with his parents.

I think it is wrong how the parents are always blamed, how society says to their parents "you had to have known something" but nothing is ever done or said to the doctor who Eric told he was having murder and suicide thoughts to. It just goes to show how messed up society really is. The doctor could have possibly prevented Columbine had they done something besides just give him pills and stick his file on the shelf to be forgotten about. That is never mentioned though.

Jenn wrote:

It just goes to show how messed up society really is. The doctor could have possibly prevented Columbine had they done something besides just give him pills and stick his file on the shelf to be forgotten about. That is never mentioned though.

I agree fully. The "What If's" are perpetually agonizing.

Jenn wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

Jenn wrote:

I think it was Eric who had the seconds thoughts and was trying to find ways out of it.

I entirely agree.

I wish I'd somehow saved our conversation about this on that rebvodka board before it was closed down. (I don't know if you remember that, but we had a good conversation going in a thread there about this. A few others added to it, as well).

The Rebvodka forum did open back up, but all of the threads are gone and you can't make any new ones. Pretty much you can log in to an empty forum. I have no idea what the owner of this forum is doing. And yes, I do remember our discussion about Eric and how we thought he might have wanted to back out. Here is the link to the Rebvodka forum.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

See? It' empty!

What the heck is that? It makes no sort of sense! Oh well, the majority of the people that ended up there, from what I saw and from what I can remember, were "refugees" from sbb closing down before you and Ivan made this forum, and prior to that, it seems that the people who went there were uncomfortable with both sbb and the overall idiocy on tumblr.

I just wish I'd thought to copy and save that conversation. In time, I'll try and re-write all that I said there, and more. I know others will, as well. I just can't right now because I'm in the middle of writing three final papers for the semester, and then I'm off for two weeks! Hooray!!

Jenn wrote:

It is a shame we'll never know, but with everything I've heard and read, I just always get a feeling that Eric was the one having the most second thoughts. And him crying on video and saying how he didn't want to bond anymore with his parents.

I don't think I personally started to understand Columbine at all until I started looking at it as something the boys couldn't wait to do. I started off thinking they both were reluctant, Dylan most of all. Research has tended to reveal precisely the opposite.

I don't think either of them wanted to back out. I do think Eric had some hope they would get caught and he might find genuine help, but that hope vanished for him at some point. He sure did leave a lot of clues around before the event. He may have held out a shred of trust in the system and in his family.

Dylan was very good at hiding his murderous intentions. I don't think he had any faith whatsoever in his family or in society and that he reached this conclusion well before the plot to attack the school was hatched. I think he was very eager for NBK. I don't think he saw potential in college for anything but more jocks and bitches and cliques. Fraternities and sororities and more things to be left out of and ridiculed about.

I would love to Know which one of them said "go, go!"

I think it would answer the question of which, if either of the two had second thoughts.

deathmedic wrote:

JDM87 wrote:

Interesting question. I think Dylan may have seriously considered aborting NBK at the 11th hour. I mean, he seemed  pretty happy during prom night and during the day he went to go chose his college dorm. Too happy, in fact, to be a person feigning happiness. I'm sure deep down Dylan had doubts over going thru with NBK.

Not true... Most people who have decided to kill themselves are very happy in the days/ weeks prior to doing so. I have read this countless times, it seems as they are happy they have "Found their escape".

Yes i agree with deathmedic , Dylan yearned for freedom in death. He was a tortured soul and NBK was his passage to freedom. Many suicidal people fantasize about killing themselves and gain peace and tranquility by those thoughts. If Dylan didn't want to take part in the massacre ,Dylan wouldn't have taken part. He did because he wanted to go out with a bang ,literally !

rebel82 wrote:

I would love to Know which one of them said "go, go!"

I think it would answer the question of which, if either of the two had second thoughts.

Dylan's voice was by far the loudest and he did most of the screaming that day. I'm betting it was Dylan -- or both of them.

I agree, I think it was Dylan.

gustopoet wrote:

rebel82 wrote:

I would love to Know which one of them said "go, go!"

I think it would answer the question of which, if either of the two had second thoughts.

Dylan's voice was by far the loudest and he did most of the screaming that day. I'm betting it was Dylan -- or both of them.

Jonathan Cole identified three shooters, two in trench coats and one in a white t-shirt and blue jeans. He said he heard the male in the white shirt yell "GO!! GO!!" at the other two males in tench coats. This occurred outside the school at the top of the steps that lead to the cafeteria and just before the two males in tench coats drew their weapons. pg(750)

queenfarooq wrote:

Jonathan Cole identified three shooters, two in trench coats and one in a white t-shirt and blue jeans. He said he heard the male in the white shirt yell "GO!! GO!!" at the other two males in tench coats. This occurred outside the school at the top of the steps that lead to the cafeteria and just before the two males in tench coats drew their weapons. pg(750)

Yes, I've read this testimony and a lot of other testimonies that suggest there were people other than Eric and Dylan involved. Could be. However, I don't believe that this is the case. So I think that one of the two of them, or both of them, shouted "Go!" And I'm sure that, of the two, Dylan's voice would have carried the farthest.

gustopoet wrote:

queenfarooq wrote:

Jonathan Cole identified three shooters, two in trench coats and one in a white t-shirt and blue jeans. He said he heard the male in the white shirt yell "GO!! GO!!" at the other two males in tench coats. This occurred outside the school at the top of the steps that lead to the cafeteria and just before the two males in tench coats drew their weapons. pg(750)

Yes, I've read this testimony and a lot of other testimonies that suggest there were people other than Eric and Dylan involved. Could be. However, I don't believe that this is the case. So I think that one of the two of them, or both of them, shouted "Go!" And I'm sure that, of the two, Dylan's voice would have carried the farthest.

I agree with what you said. I'm also sure that Dylan's voice would have potentially carried the furthest if they were shouting outside the school.
I just included the above reference as it seemed appropriate if we are trying to figure out who said this comment, if they did of course.

queenfarooq wrote:

I just included the above reference as it seemed appropriate if we are trying to figure out who said this comment, if they did of course.

Good thinking.

gustopoet wrote:

rebel82 wrote:

I would love to Know which one of them said "go, go!"

I think it would answer the question of which, if either of the two had second thoughts.

Dylan's voice was by far the loudest and he did most of the screaming that day. I'm betting it was Dylan -- or both of them.

queenfarooq wrote:

Jonathan Cole identified three shooters, two in trench coats and one in a white t-shirt and blue jeans. He said he heard the male in the white shirt yell "GO!! GO!!" at the other two males in tench coats. This occurred outside the school at the top of the steps that lead to the cafeteria and just before the two males in tench coats drew their weapons. pg(750)

It's too bad a couple of these witnesses (preferably ones that did not get hurt) can't be put under hypnosis to extract more crystal clear details.  It would really also put the 3rd + shooter conspiracy theory to rest or not. Though, on second thought, maybe they'd end up like Mark Taylor..

Of course, we all know Dylan's voice can carry but that doesn't logically deduce that he was the one that started off NBK with the "GO! GO!".  Just because "Dylan can yell real good" ;) does not mean that Eric can't yell just loud enough (in ear shot of Jonathan Cole and other nearby witnesses) since NBK had essentially become like his dream/fantasy military campaign.

Here is why I tend to think that Eric yelled 'Go! Go!' and my reasoning for it:  I tend to look at the video production footage the two made together and observed fairly obvious cues as to who is more in charge of the other in that friendship.  In nearly every situation, Eric is in charge in a physical, verbal way.  

In the "Carwax commercial", Eric is practically dominating Dylan in public, then blows a short fuse with an acerbic  'Dylan shut up!' at one point.  Eric then procedes to direct everything that Dylan does thereafter "step forward so you're in camera, Dylan" "do this, do that, etc.' to achieve the scene he has his mind.  You feel a bit for Dylan's awkwardness holding that baseball bat (well, at least I do) and being told what to do by his friend in front of others.  He's like Eric's puppet in front of a bunch of other people.  I can imagine how that feels for someone with his acute shyness. I also tend to think Dylan was annoyed by it and internalized it which is why he takes one more hard smash at the bike right before the camera is shut off. (You can also see Eric walking over to him.)

In Radioactive Clothing, Dylan is supposed to be in charge, and while Dylan says his tough guy lines in the beginning about the drill to the boys, watch carefully as to who is leading the way in the house with his military technique. Dylan follows down the stairs to the basement and also follows Eric up the stairs.  Somewhere along the line he passively passes the leadership baton off to Eric.  

In 'Hitmen for Hire' , Eric is in charge. Eric does all the talking to 'the client' in every scene; Dylan is just the silent partner.  

In real life, the same applies during NBK, Dylan follows Eric down the Common's stairs and when they finally leave at noon, Dylan trudges behind Eric up the stairs. Also, while Dylan may have initially gone off on Evan Todd - what does he do after he's blown his fuse?, he hands Todd off to Eric to decide what to do with him.  Given all that, in my personal opinion, Eric lead the initial start of NBK and likely was the one to yell like a Military leader "GO! GO!".  This is not to say that Dylan did not do things on his own in NBK as there were times on the video footage where the two were together yet doing things separately, within earshot of one another - but I think overall, Eric made the lead decisions as to when NBK would START and when it would FINISH. Dylan went along for the ride ("have fun!") until he got to his own 'finish line' where he could end it all.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

but I think overall, Eric made the lead decisions as to when NBK would START and when it would FINISH. Dylan went along for the ride ("have fun!") until he got to his own 'finish line' where he could end it all.

I think they were probably both saying "Go! Go!" kinda like it's depicted in Zero Hour but much louder. Like any other team getting ready to take the field...

Yes, analysis of video footage and other evidence suggests Dylan was very much a follower, right up until we last glimpse him following Eric's lead up the cafeteria steps to eventual suicide. I agree with your analysis of their friendship such as it appears from existing footage. Even in the last basement tape Eric tells Dylan "Say it now."

However, I feel the dynamic between the two is actually quite fluid and I think that makes it hard to arrive at any final answer about who led who. Eric was more extroverted and Dylan certainly appears to be a follower in some of the clips. On the other hand, a lot of people noted that Dylan was actually the first person to be affiliated with the TCM, first to work at Blackjack, first to listen to techno, and first to decide to plot to shoot up the school. He initiated the break-in of the van, the hacking of the school computers, and warned Brooks Brown and his family about Eric's website. He also quit Blackjack and reportedly had verbal arguments with his boss and his teachers. Not exactly a shrinking violet.

He was also supposedly physically protective of Eric and stood up to jocks etc along with Chris Morris. Dylan had a lot more friends than Eric, so if he was Eric's follower, it was out of free choice because Eric was actually the one who had more invested in their friendship. On Eric's's 18th b-day the only people who showed up to rock and bowl were Dylan and Robyn Anderson....

So yes, overall, Dylan appears to be a follower, but I think there is some wiggle room there.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

It's too bad a couple of these witnesses (preferably ones that did not get hurt) can't be put under hypnosis to extract more crystal clear details.  It would really also put the 3rd + shooter conspiracy theory to rest or not. Though, on second thought, maybe they'd end up like Mark Taylor..

Yeah, no kidding... Poor Mark. When I 1st started researching Columbine I assumed the guy yelling "Go! Go!" must've been Joe Stair or Robert Perry. Over time though I came to the conclusion that only Eric and Dylan were actively involved. I waver on this perspective now and again, but for the most part I'm sure they acted alone.

To be honest, the person I most suspect of having deeper involvement is Chris Morris as I believe he was probably a role-model to Eric and Dylan to some extent. I'm sure if nothing else his "philosophizing" as is evident in some of his interviews, probably egged them on. And he openly embraced/initiated the shock/death attitude of the TCM and noted that a lot of the kids being picked on at Columbine fantasized about suicide and murder as a way to escape the high school. One the TCM started to fight back at all, I think it was only a matter of time until someone got killed. Not an NBK, necessarily, but at least a homicide or three.

The violence went on after NBK as well. More murders and more suspicious suicides, and that's without even mentioning anything about Rocky-the-psycho-wrestler...

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Also, while Dylan may have initially gone off on Evan Todd - what does he do after he's blown his fuse?, he hands Todd off to Eric to decide what to do with him.  

He did the same thing with Isaiah Shoels. Also, he killed Tomlin while trying to watch Eric's back and Ketcher as a direct follow up to Eric shooting Shoels.

Dylan killed five people we can be sure of: like the 5 coffins in a cart that he drew in his journal. (Wonder who's carrying that cart now, karma)...  

Out of those 5: Kyle, Lauren, and Corey dePooter seem like his most autonomous choices. Two of those those three were "jocks" and the other was a special needs kid who stayed out in the open when shooting started. Never mind Dylan may have had a latent grudge against these kind of kids since his mother was a special needs teacher...

On the audio recordings he sounds very much like a lunatic killer enjoying himself, but his actions almost seem to contradict this. Then there is the element of his weaponry being only semi-reliable and hard to reload. Dylan was a nervous gawky type -- I'm sure when the bullets started flying there was a lot of fumbling and mishandling of his weapons.

It's hard to read just how reluctant Dylan may have been. He killed less and taunted more. He whooped it up and made some almost inhuman remarks during the shooting, and yet he spared John Savage and Evan Todd -- and did he even look that hard for Peggy Dodd the "bitch" at the top of his shit list?

Some part of Dylan is always:

gustopoet wrote:

However, I feel the dynamic between the two is actually quite fluid and I think that makes it hard to arrive at any final answer about who led who. Eric was more extroverted and Dylan certainly appears to be a follower in some of the clips. On the other hand, a lot of people noted that Dylan was actually the first person to be affiliated with the TCM, first to work at Blackjack, first to listen to techno, and first to decide to plot to shoot up the school. He initiated the break-in of the van, the hacking of the school computers, and warned Brooks Brown and his family about Eric's website. He also quit Blackjack and reportedly had verbal arguments with his boss and his teachers. Not exactly a shrinking violet.

Don't get me wrong, it wasn't really my intention to paint Dylan as a 'shrinking violet' just because Eric was the unspoken leader in NBK.   Usually in a friendship, even if they are on fairly equal footing, one is usually just a bit more dominant.  E & D's relationship probably worked really sympatico because Dylan let Eric shine.  Dylan was more quiet, and introverted and Eric was more outspoken and extroverted.  However, Dylan was comfortable letting Eric take charge in some regards.  Dylan probably brought a lot of intelligence and ingenuity to the table. Dylan was, for the most part, more easy going, he had more friendships..or perhaps it was more like he was able to keep or maintain friendships better than Eric.   Because of the connections that Dylan maintained, it would be natural to see the progress of Dylan beginning to associate with the TCM through his own friends first rather than through Eric.   Starting from this point on, I'll probably be veering off topic as I'll be responding to your points above supporting that he was not a 'shrinking violet'.

While several students at CHS noted about Dylan Klebold in the 11K that he was more of the follower of the two, on the other side of the coin, students also simultaneously witnessed Dylan mouthing off to his French teacher (and being annoying with Zack Heckler in that class), swearing at Peggy Dodd because she wouldn't let him print more than 10 pages and slamming his fist down on the ball return in Bowling Class when he didn't strike.  Yes, certainly, Dylan is not a shrinking violet, in fact, he has volatile anger management issues, despite all of that, which is pretty well known stuff about him, he can also be more of the the follower in his relationship dynamic with Eric Harris.

As for your point about being 'the first' to work at Blackjack, the only person I've ever read that said as such was Devon Adams. If other witnesses have said as such, I would really like to review that.    I think Devon's recollection of her good friend Dylan is a bit skewed on that point.  Also, Eric was almost five months older than Dylan and so, I'm presuming Eric received his Driver's permit first. Regardless, Eric was much more motivated when it came to jobs and working than Dylan. It makes more sense that he, as the older teen, would be looking for work first.  In the thread below, I touch on this and also the musical influences:

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Dylan and Zack were the two that were really good at computers, learning languages like Q-Basic, Linux, etc.  They both tested their prowess by dabbling in hacking so it would stand to reason that they were the two most responsible for the locker combo incident. Zack received the most punishment as he was the main instigator followed closely by Dylan and then Eric got his hand slapped for being minorly involved.  

Dylan started his journal before Eric and so if he blew off steam with a fantasy statement about him going on a shooting spree  (with Zack) it only means that he had a journal before Eric and was able to actually beat Eric to punch writing such fantasy thoughts down.   It's a moot point whether Dylan came up with the idea before Eric because he journaled before Eric.  We don't know when exactly either had thoughts on shooting up their school individually or together, as a meeting of the minds. We only have Dylan writing it down in '97 and not Eric - simply because Eric didn't have a journal to write it down in.

He told Brooks Brown about Eric's website. Personally, I do not think that was done out of nefarious motivation.  Dylan had long standing ties with Brooks and he wanted to keep Brooks safe but to do it in a way that would not tip of Eric so that he would lose his friendship with Eric. He was essentially straddling the fence, trying to save both friendships at the same time, walking that fine line of letting Brooks secretly know about the potential danger of what Eric was up to, yet, asking Brooks not to let on who/where he got the information from.  To me, this demonstrates Dylan's unwavering loyalty to both friends yet feeling divided, caught in the middle, by the rift between Brooks and Eric and not wanting to lose either friend in the process.

As for starting arguments with teachers and bosses, yes, it's quite well known that Dylan had a temper and like Eric, issues with authority.  However, again, none of that has anything to do with whether he lead or followed in NBK and who started the attack. Essentially, my post was supporting the physical evidence of how the two interacted in video production, their dynamics in those videos in relations to which would have been more likely to have started the attack.

gustopoet wrote:

He was also supposedly physically protective of Eric and stood up to jocks etc along with Chris Morris. Dylan had a lot more friends than Eric, so if he was Eric's follower, it was out of free choice because Eric was actually the one who had more invested in their friendship. On Eric's's 18th b-day the only people who showed up to rock and bowl were Dylan and Robyn Anderson....

Dylan was loyal to his friends, most especially his closest friends.  In his journal he felt as though he always helped them yet no one was there to help him. I think that Eric and Dylan were very dependent on one another. NBK was a way for them to not have to deal with the stress of graduating and going their separate ways without one another.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Personally, I do not think that was done out of nefarious motivation.  Dylan had long standing ties with Brooks and he wanted to keep Brooks safe but to do it in a way that would not tip of Eric so that he would lose his friendship with Eric.

NBK was a way for them to not have to deal with the stress of graduating and going their separate ways without one another.

I agree with your post. However, I do think leader-follower relationships in many cases "mask" who is actually the leader. As in "leading from the bottom" which I think was often the case in Eric and Dylan's friendship.

No, I never meant to suggest anything "nefarious" about Dylan tipping off Brooks; I meant to emphasize the act was autonomous . Actually, it was outright treasonous to Eric, his alleged leader. That aside, your analysis of this incident is 100% spot-on.

I also agree that NBK was a way of avoiding "childhood's end" in some demented, DOOM version of Never-Never land. If they were wearing Hawaiian shirts on 4-20, that's all the evidence we'd need to establish a case for regressive fantasy syndrome

queenfarooq wrote:

Jonathan Cole identified three shooters, two in trench coats and one in a white t-shirt and blue jeans. He said he heard the male in the white shirt yell "GO!! GO!!" at the other two males in tench coats. This occurred outside the school at the top of the steps that lead to the cafeteria and just before the two males in tench coats drew their weapons. pg(750)

I'm not sure either of them yelled it.

Judging from this testimony, it was more likely a student who was running from them and telling his friends to "Go!"

gustopoet wrote:

No, I never meant to suggest anything "nefarious" about Dylan tipping off Brooks; I meant to emphasize the act was autonomous . Actually, it was outright treasonous to Eric, his alleged leader. That aside, your analysis of this incident is 100% spot-on.

Yes, but, interestingly, Brooks Brown sometimes tends to question whether Dylan did this as some sort of inside set-up between him and Eric.  I guess considering that your childhood friend turned out murdering people you wouldn't know which way is up or down with them anymore. Thing is, Dylan wasn't a murderer back then.  Dylan suffered when Brooks and Eric were on the outs.  Brooks also mentions in his book how relieved Dylan seemed after the two patched things up.  I think that is the key part to keep in mind right there: Dylan didn't want to lose either friend.  His tip off to Brooks was genuinely done to keep Brooks safe.

gustopoet wrote:

I also agree that NBK was a way of avoiding "childhood's end" in some demented, DOOM version of Never-Never land. If they were wearing Hawaiian shirts on 4-20, that's all the evidence we'd need to establish a case for regressive fantasy syndrome

Completely agree. :)The Lost Boys.  

I keep saying the ubiquitous Hawaiian shirt references on this forum deserve to be preserved into a parody fanfic!   Dylan and the Adventures of his Hawaiian Shirt.  Could picture it being the arc from when Devon made him wear one at her party all the way up to 4/20 when he finally put it to good use! ;) Inquiring minds want to know..

lasttrain wrote:

 

it was more likely a student who was running from them and telling his friends to "Go!"

That's probably the best explanation.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

 His tip off to Brooks was genuinely done to keep Brooks safe.

Just as Eric's accepting Brooks' "apology" was at least partially motivated as a way to keep Dylan happy. Eric wasn't a real forgiving type guy. At one point he apparently discussed murdering the Browns w/ Dylan -- as a potential prelude to NBK at Columbine. That probably freaked Dylan out a bit. May have been the catalyst for his tipping off Brooks.

Eric still tried to kill Brooks' brother in the cafeteria on the day of the attack.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

I keep saying the ubiquitous Hawaiian shirt references on this forum deserve to be preserved into a parody fanfic!   Dylan and the Adventures of his Hawaiian Shirt.  Could picture it being the arc from when Devon made him wear one at her party all the way up to 4/20 when he finally put it to good use! ;) Inquiring minds want to know..

"Shirt Shooters" -- Two Hawaiian shirts join forces shoot up a luau!?!? Sequel to Radioactive Clothing!

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

I keep saying the ubiquitous Hawaiian shirt references on this forum deserve to be preserved into a parody fanfic!   Dylan and the Adventures of his Hawaiian Shirt.  Could picture it being the arc from when Devon made him wear one at her party all the way up to 4/20 when he finally put it to good use! ;) Inquiring minds want to know..

"

gustopoet wrote:

Shirt Shooters" -- Two Hawaiian shirts join forces shoot up a luau!?!? Sequel to Radioactive Clothing!

Yuuup.  

I always thought it was Dylan only wearing the Hawaiian shirt? Well if it was the two of them maybe they thought it was a way to lighten their mood before NBK took place. I wonder if they somehow knew they'd only killed 13 people, if it was really worth it, considering bar Rachael Scott, everyone else they killed they probably did not even know.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

 His tip off to Brooks was genuinely done to keep Brooks safe.

gustopoet wrote:

Just as Eric's accepting Brooks' "apology" was at least partially motivated as a way to keep Dylan happy. Eric wasn't a real forgiving type guy. At one point he apparently discussed murdering the Browns w/ Dylan -- as a potential prelude to NBK at Columbine. That probably freaked Dylan out a bit. May have been the catalyst for his tipping off Brooks.

Eric still tried to kill Brooks' brother in the cafeteria on the day of the attack.

Dylan went on the Rebel Missions with Eric that involved Brooks' house.  I bet he must have felt like it was one part harmless, mischievous fun and the other part felt kind of conflicted as the target was someone he knew well and actually liked as a friend.  Apparently, the targets were always people Eric disliked and houses he chose to trash.  Dylan, as the loyal following friend, went along with whatever Eric wanted.  That is..until Eric started posting death threats and Brooks' number on his public website.  That's where Dylan started having a silent personal conflict with Eric's brand of 'fun'.  You can bet Dylan didn't air any grievances to Eric. He didn't want to risk losing Eric ..so he went around him.. and surreptitiously slipped Brooks the piece of paper. That was Dylan's brand of quiet individuality and backbone. A rather crafty way of handling things as it could save him both friends at the same time and spare himself conflict. Ironically, just by that one choice/decision/act it began to open up a can of worms that could have stopped Columbine.  Brooks then told his parents about the website - just not where he got the info from.  If things had actually worked the way it should have gone in the police dept. with search warrants, etc., Dylan was partially the catalyst to potentially stopping NBK altogether.  Unfortunately, this was not in the cards of Fate.  But, I digress..

Chris Morris' girlfriend was also in the cafeteria and she went to Eric's bday party.  It was indiscriminate at best. I don't know if Eric really thought "oh, good. I let Brooks go but his brother is still in the cafeteria. Mwoahahaha.."

One distraction from the trying to reconstruct the events of Columbine in my mind is that tainted with the reconstruction in Zero Hour. Ben Johnson's role as Eric Harris turns Eric into a mischievous but mainstream looking kid whereas Eric was anything but mainstream.

Zero Hour made some huge mistakes but I still like it.

Yep, it's grown on me since the second time I've viewed it. I always laugh when Ben playing Eric says in the bedroom "no, nothings going on".

Moseley wrote:

Yep, it's grown on me since the second time I've viewed it. I always laugh when Ben playing Eric says in the bedroom "no, nothings going on".

That's a good scene. Wish someone would do a dramatization of the complete Basement Tapes transcripts. Also really wish someone would do a good full-length movie of Columbine.

gustopoet wrote:

Moseley wrote:

Yep, it's grown on me since the second time I've viewed it. I always laugh when Ben playing Eric says in the bedroom "no, nothings going on".

That's a good scene. Wish someone would do a dramatization of the complete Basement Tapes transcripts. Also really wish someone would do a good full-length movie of Columbine.

But that would be impossible of now because most of the transcripts are shortened as well and the ones can be seen are censored in some way or another.

Moseley wrote:

gustopoet wrote:

Moseley wrote:

Yep, it's grown on me since the second time I've viewed it. I always laugh when Ben playing Eric says in the bedroom "no, nothings going on".

That's a good scene. Wish someone would do a dramatization of the complete Basement Tapes transcripts. Also really wish someone would do a good full-length movie of Columbine.

But that would be impossible of now because most of the transcripts are shortened as well and the ones can be seen are censored in some way or another.

A dramatization of what we have in transcript and in description.

Jenn wrote:

JDM87 wrote:

I doubt that Eric would be having second thoughts about it. I mean, it was him who truly instigated the idea of doing Columbine. Sure, Dylan brought it up casually during a journal entry in '97, but it was Eric who wanted to turn some twisted ambition into real-life gore. Dylan just wanted to go down there and "have fun", as he said himself. Eric wanted to have more than fun, he wanted to see Doom depicted in reality. Why would he doubt going thru with his plans? I mean, he got all the guns he wanted, he spent a year working on the plan and he hitched Dylan as his partner-in-crime. What would seriously make him hesitate over what he wanted to do?

How do you know it was Eric's idea? How do you know that Dylan wasn't the first one who put the idea into Eric's head and then Eric ran with the idea? I seem to think it was Dylan's idea and he let Eric do all of the work. Also, if Eric wasn't having second thoughts, why was he leaving little clues all over the place?

Like telling his doctor he had murder/suicide thoughts, and leaving plans of NBK in the computers at the school, and leaving a little tape recorder in plain sight on his kitchen counter, for anyone to find.

I was surfing thru some old reports on 4/20 & found a statement that police found the sawed off end of a shotgun in plain view in Dylan's room when they searched the Klebold home. In reading Susan Klebold's article (Oprah's magazine? "I'll Never Know Why") , Mrs. Klebold stated they didn't see/read Dylan's journals or have details of his specific activities on 4/20 for 6 months.

I was surprised it took that long for details. For that period of time the family held out in thoughts that their son was duped into the massacre (thought he had fake bullets) or was a non shooting participant. Ill fated hopes obviously.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Jenn wrote:

JDM87 wrote:

I doubt that Eric would be having second thoughts about it. I mean, it was him who truly instigated the idea of doing Columbine. Sure, Dylan brought it up casually during a journal entry in '97, but it was Eric who wanted to turn some twisted ambition into real-life gore. Dylan just wanted to go down there and "have fun", as he said himself. Eric wanted to have more than fun, he wanted to see Doom depicted in reality. Why would he doubt going thru with his plans? I mean, he got all the guns he wanted, he spent a year working on the plan and he hitched Dylan as his partner-in-crime. What would seriously make him hesitate over what he wanted to do?

How do you know it was Eric's idea? How do you know that Dylan wasn't the first one who put the idea into Eric's head and then Eric ran with the idea? I seem to think it was Dylan's idea and he let Eric do all of the work. Also, if Eric wasn't having second thoughts, why was he leaving little clues all over the place?

Like telling his doctor he had murder/suicide thoughts, and leaving plans of NBK in the computers at the school, and leaving a little tape recorder in plain sight on his kitchen counter, for anyone to find.

I was surfing thru some old reports on 4/20 & found a statement that police found the sawed off end of a shotgun in plain view in Dylan's room when they searched the Klebold home.  In reading Susan Klebold's article (Oprah's magazine? "I'll Never Know Why") , Mrs. Klebold stated they didn't see/read Dylan's journals or have details of his specific activities on 4/20 for 6 months.

I was surprised it took that long for details.  For that period of time the family held out in thoughts that their son was duped into the massacre (thought he had fake bullets) or was a non shooting participant.  Ill fated hopes obviously.

Wow, that's really sad. To now know for that long that your child was so involved in something so sinister. I'm sure it was heartbreaking for them.

FlyerFan wrote:

Fatheroftwo wrote:

Jenn wrote:

JDM87 wrote:

I doubt that Eric would be having second thoughts about it. I mean, it was him who truly instigated the idea of doing Columbine. Sure, Dylan brought it up casually during a journal entry in '97, but it was Eric who wanted to turn some twisted ambition into real-life gore. Dylan just wanted to go down there and "have fun", as he said himself. Eric wanted to have more than fun, he wanted to see Doom depicted in reality. Why would he doubt going thru with his plans? I mean, he got all the guns he wanted, he spent a year working on the plan and he hitched Dylan as his partner-in-crime. What would seriously make him hesitate over what he wanted to do?

How do you know it was Eric's idea? How do you know that Dylan wasn't the first one who put the idea into Eric's head and then Eric ran with the idea? I seem to think it was Dylan's idea and he let Eric do all of the work. Also, if Eric wasn't having second thoughts, why was he leaving little clues all over the place?

Like telling his doctor he had murder/suicide thoughts, and leaving plans of NBK in the computers at the school, and leaving a little tape recorder in plain sight on his kitchen counter, for anyone to find.

I was surfing thru some old reports on 4/20 & found a statement that police found the sawed off end of a shotgun in plain view in Dylan's room when they searched the Klebold home.  In reading Susan Klebold's article (Oprah's magazine? "I'll Never Know Why") , Mrs. Klebold stated they didn't see/read Dylan's journals or have details of his specific activities on 4/20 for 6 months.

I was surprised it took that long for details.  For that period of time the family held out in thoughts that their son was duped into the massacre (thought he had fake bullets) or was a non shooting participant.  Ill fated hopes obviously.

Wow, that's really sad. To now know for that long that your child was so involved in something so sinister. I'm sure it was heartbreaking for them.

The cycle never ends for that poor family, but 6 months is a long time to be stuck in denial. In another article I read where the family fed off of close friends that spun the hopes that Dylan was duped & couldn't have been as aggressively involved as we unfortunately know that he was today.

It seems the family was shut off from interaction in the community that they were not aware of the details that surely were being spread through the community. Odd too that the Harris & Klebolds did not communicate after 4/20. Possibly advice from their legal teams, but odd nonetheless. I posted this week in another thread, but I discovered this week that the Harris' never left the Denver area.. many thought/reported they had moved out of state.

I'm looking forward to Susan Klebold's interview with Diane Sawyer (Feb '16 last I heard) & book release in '16.

Side note.. I was @ JeffCo County Courthouse tday for traffic court. I found a plaque for John Stone the controversial JeffCo sheriff, not going to deny I had thoughts of taking it or leaving some personal notes in writing for others to share:)

He has a plaque? That's just disturbing. He doesn't deserve one.

FlyerFan wrote:

He has a plaque? That's just disturbing. He doesn't deserve one.

Totally agree.

They had plaques for everyone that held the position tho.. it was by default.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

FlyerFan wrote:

He has a plaque? That's just disturbing. He doesn't deserve one.

Totally agree.

They had plaques for everyone that held the position tho..  it was by default.

Oh okay, that's different. I thought he got a plaque for something related to Columbine. I was going to say if anything he deserves a dunce cap on his head for his sad excuse for police work there.

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Wasn't it in Eric's room where the end of a shotgun was found?