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 The T-Shirts

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PostSubject: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 25, 2018 10:32 pm

Are there any stories about Eric & Dylan's T-shirts the day of the shooting? Like where did they get them? Did they have them custom ordered? And why did they select "Natural Selection" and "Wrath"?
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeSun Nov 25, 2018 10:50 pm

I am pretty sure they got them made at a kiosk at Southwest Plaza.

I don't remember my source to be honest!

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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 12:14 am

joebox97 wrote:
And why did they select "Natural Selection" and "Wrath"?

Well the former is an easy one; Eric talked about the concept of natural selection at length, on his website, in his journal, and on The Basement Tapes. He was very into the idea of killing off people he thought of as beneath him. 

The second one is unknown to me, though I surmise that it just sounded cool and intimidating to Dylan. There's also the fact that there's a KMFDM song called "Wrath", so it might be an homage.

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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 1:16 am

The whole Natural Selection thing played into Eric's god persona. He wanted to take matters into his own hands and kill off people he thought were weaker.

Dylan wanted to get revenge on a society that he felt wronged him and made him miserable. Wrath was an appropriate word for that and it also had a tie-in to a song off KMFDM's Xtort.


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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 1:43 am

So was Eric being ironic? because killing people is literally the opposite of natural selection

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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 2:12 am

HanShotFirst wrote:
So was Eric being ironic? because killing people is literally the opposite of natural selection

Nah, he just didn't understand the difference. As for Dylan, he wanted his Wrath to be Godlike, or as another user on this forum put it "How KMFDMing KMFDM will this be, Eric?"
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 2:34 am

The irony of "Natural selection" was that he removed himself from the gene pool.
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 4:02 am

HanShotFirst wrote:
So was Eric being ironic? because killing people is literally the opposite of natural selection

Natural selection is the stronger and more developed beings live and the weaker die. Eric thought he was superior to them because he could think. And with a gun anyone is stronger than a helpless person anyway. So it is not natural selection because Eric was not superior, but I don't think it is that contradictory to what he did. But I think natural selection is a more global thing, it cannot be on the scale of an individual.
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 6:13 am

Neah wrote:
HanShotFirst wrote:
So was Eric being ironic? because killing people is literally the opposite of natural selection

Natural selection is the stronger and more developed beings live and the weaker die. Eric thought he was superior to them because he could think. And with a gun anyone is stronger than a helpless person anyway. So it is not natural selection because Eric was not superior, but I don't think it is that contradictory to what he did. But I think natural selection is a more global thing, it cannot be on the scale of an individual.

Natural selection is the process of failing to evolve and adapt to changing habitats. For example during the major climate shift millions of years ago only mammals and reptiles small enough to burrow underground survived while the larger species like dinosaurs all died out. It's about the evolutionary edge to be able to adapt to changjng conditions. Hence the term "natural" selection. Theres nothing natural about a human deciding another human is inferior and killing them. Sure it's selection but has nothing to do with nature.

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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 6:38 am

Hi there joebox. It's been asked before. It was at Customized Teez in Southwest Plaza, which supposedly still exists.  In an earlier version of the plot, Eric was going to wear a black shirt with NBK on the front and an R on the back, and Dylan the same but with a V.

"literally the opposite" is quite the stretch. People are dead, so they won't pass on their genes.  Others are alive, so they might do. That's selection. I guess you could say Eric isn't nature doing it, but artificial selection usually refers to breeding, not outright killing people, and people are still part of nature. Artificial selection can be seen as just a special case of natural selection, not its opposite. He was embodying "natural selection". Death is "literally how" natural selection works. If everyone was immortal, there would be no natural selection. If his shirt said "wiping out inferior genetic stock" it would not be mysterious and mean the same thing.

Also it's true that "populations evolve, not individuals" it's the preservation of favored races which produces new species, not the preservation of favored individuals - but the races are just made up of individuals, and that's who experiences death, obviously. Frankly, I don't see the contradiction. Just seems like one of those contrived distinctions without a difference to say you are smarter than somebody else.  No, he wasn't being ironic. There's no irony to be had.  

As for Dylan's shirt, pretty much what's been said already. He saw the massacre as revenge; he thought the word and the song were cool and he identified with it.

Have seen people recreate the shirt and use a different font for Eric's than with Dylan's, though I've never understood how they would know. The only image I know of either one is the little you can make out of Dylan's shirt from the suicide photos.
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 9:33 am

I wonder if the person who made the shirt wondered why he wanted it say Natural Selection. Just an odd thing to want.
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 10:50 am

cakeman wrote:
Hi there joebox. It's been asked before. It was at Customized Teez in Southwest Plaza, which supposedly still exists.  In an earlier version of the plot, Eric was going to wear a black shirt with NBK on the front and an R on the back, and Dylan the same but with a V.

"literally the opposite" is quite the stretch. People are dead, so they won't pass on their genes.  Others are alive, so they might do. That's selection. I guess you could say Eric isn't nature doing it, but artificial selection usually refers to breeding, not outright killing people, and people are still part of nature. Artificial selection can be seen as just a special case of natural selection, not its opposite. He was embodying "natural selection". Death is "literally how" natural selection works. If everyone was immortal, there would be no natural selection. If his shirt said "wiping out inferior genetic stock" it would not be mysterious and mean the same thing.

Also it's true that "populations evolve, not individuals" it's the preservation of favored races which produces new species, not the preservation of favored individuals - but the races are just made up of individuals, and that's who experiences death, obviously. Frankly, I don't see the contradiction. Just seems like one of those contrived distinctions without a difference to say you are smarter than somebody else.  No, he wasn't being ironic. There's no irony to be had.  

As for Dylan's shirt, pretty much what's been said already. He saw the massacre as revenge; he thought the word and the song were cool and he identified with it.

Have seen people recreate the shirt and use a different font for Eric's than with Dylan's, though I've never understood how they would know. The only image I know of either one is the little you can make out of Dylan's shirt from the suicide photos.

Thanks for the info everyone. I recall Eric writing/talking about how that day was to be called NBK and seemed really connected with that, so could see him wearing a shirt of that. What did the R and V mean?

Also yea there are places that still print those shirts. The wrath one is pretty accurate, but like you said there is no pictures (that I know of) that show Eric's shirt to see what font it was. They make one with army font which seems appropriate.
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 10:52 am

joebox97 wrote:
cakeman wrote:
Hi there joebox. It's been asked before. It was at Customized Teez in Southwest Plaza, which supposedly still exists.  In an earlier version of the plot, Eric was going to wear a black shirt with NBK on the front and an R on the back, and Dylan the same but with a V.

"literally the opposite" is quite the stretch. People are dead, so they won't pass on their genes.  Others are alive, so they might do. That's selection. I guess you could say Eric isn't nature doing it, but artificial selection usually refers to breeding, not outright killing people, and people are still part of nature. Artificial selection can be seen as just a special case of natural selection, not its opposite. He was embodying "natural selection". Death is "literally how" natural selection works. If everyone was immortal, there would be no natural selection. If his shirt said "wiping out inferior genetic stock" it would not be mysterious and mean the same thing.

Also it's true that "populations evolve, not individuals" it's the preservation of favored races which produces new species, not the preservation of favored individuals - but the races are just made up of individuals, and that's who experiences death, obviously. Frankly, I don't see the contradiction. Just seems like one of those contrived distinctions without a difference to say you are smarter than somebody else.  No, he wasn't being ironic. There's no irony to be had.  

As for Dylan's shirt, pretty much what's been said already. He saw the massacre as revenge; he thought the word and the song were cool and he identified with it.

Have seen people recreate the shirt and use a different font for Eric's than with Dylan's, though I've never understood how they would know. The only image I know of either one is the little you can make out of Dylan's shirt from the suicide photos.

Thanks for the info everyone. I recall Eric writing/talking about how that day was to be called NBK and seemed really connected with that, so could see him wearing a shirt of that. What did the R and V mean?

Also yea there are places that still print those shirts. The wrath one is pretty accurate, but like you said there is no pictures (that I know of) that show Eric's shirt to see what font it was. They make one with army font which seems appropriate.

R is Reb and V is for Vodka


I am also fascinated by the plaque... where he make the plaque? I never met Eric but that just seems so Eric to make a plaque commemorating it.

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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 10:54 am

You’re right, the only time I really saw Eric’s shirt was in the gas station footage.

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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 11:28 am

Screamingophelia wrote:
joebox97 wrote:
cakeman wrote:
Hi there joebox. It's been asked before. It was at Customized Teez in Southwest Plaza, which supposedly still exists.  In an earlier version of the plot, Eric was going to wear a black shirt with NBK on the front and an R on the back, and Dylan the same but with a V.

"literally the opposite" is quite the stretch. People are dead, so they won't pass on their genes.  Others are alive, so they might do. That's selection. I guess you could say Eric isn't nature doing it, but artificial selection usually refers to breeding, not outright killing people, and people are still part of nature. Artificial selection can be seen as just a special case of natural selection, not its opposite. He was embodying "natural selection". Death is "literally how" natural selection works. If everyone was immortal, there would be no natural selection. If his shirt said "wiping out inferior genetic stock" it would not be mysterious and mean the same thing.

Also it's true that "populations evolve, not individuals" it's the preservation of favored races which produces new species, not the preservation of favored individuals - but the races are just made up of individuals, and that's who experiences death, obviously. Frankly, I don't see the contradiction. Just seems like one of those contrived distinctions without a difference to say you are smarter than somebody else.  No, he wasn't being ironic. There's no irony to be had.  

As for Dylan's shirt, pretty much what's been said already. He saw the massacre as revenge; he thought the word and the song were cool and he identified with it.

Have seen people recreate the shirt and use a different font for Eric's than with Dylan's, though I've never understood how they would know. The only image I know of either one is the little you can make out of Dylan's shirt from the suicide photos.

Thanks for the info everyone. I recall Eric writing/talking about how that day was to be called NBK and seemed really connected with that, so could see him wearing a shirt of that. What did the R and V mean?

Also yea there are places that still print those shirts. The wrath one is pretty accurate, but like you said there is no pictures (that I know of) that show Eric's shirt to see what font it was. They make one with army font which seems appropriate.

R is Reb and V is for Vodka


I am also fascinated by the plaque... where he make the plaque? I never met Eric but that just seems so Eric to make a plaque commemorating it.

LOL wow I feel dumb about the R & V thing haha, of course, I guess its still an early monday morning for me. Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 11:29 am

Screamingophelia wrote:
You’re right, the only time I really saw Eric’s  shirt was in the gas station footage.

What is the gas station footage?
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 11:36 am

joebox97 wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
You’re right, the only time I really saw Eric’s  shirt was in the gas station footage.

What is the gas station footage?


Here you go!




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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 11:51 am

WOW! thank you, never seen that before. Little eerie if that is the real audio, they both don't say anything to each other
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 11:55 am

It is very eerie indeed.

Have you seen the bomb planting footage?

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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 11:57 am

Screamingophelia wrote:
It is very eerie indeed.  

Have you seen the bomb planting footage?

I don't believe so, I'm trying to refresh myself with all the footage we have relating to them. Since we are on the topic of footage, where is that famous shot of dylan waving at the camera while he is in the driver seat from?

Thanks for all the help/info
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 12:14 pm

joebox97 wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
It is very eerie indeed.  

Have you seen the bomb planting footage?

I don't believe so, I'm trying to refresh myself with all the footage we have relating to them. Since we are on the topic of footage, where is that famous shot of dylan waving at the camera while he is in the driver seat from?

Thanks for all the help/info


You’re welcome. I will post both videos for you right here! One thing about Columbine that is very interesting as there is a lot of video footage of just Eric and Dylan being themselves. I think it’s one of the reasons why people are so interested in learning about the case and why people have empathy for them To some extent. Because they could’ve been really anybody’s friend or brother










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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 12:21 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
joebox97 wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
It is very eerie indeed.  

Have you seen the bomb planting footage?

I don't believe so, I'm trying to refresh myself with all the footage we have relating to them. Since we are on the topic of footage, where is that famous shot of dylan waving at the camera while he is in the driver seat from?

Thanks for all the help/info


You’re welcome. I will post both videos for you right here! One thing about Columbine that is very interesting as there is a lot of video footage of just  Eric and Dylan being themselves. I think it’s one of the reasons why people are so interested in learning about the case and why  people have empathy for them To some extent. Because they could’ve been really anybody’s friend or brother







God that smile at 0:28 makes me so sad and happy at the same time. He seems like such a laid back dude there, nothing out of the ordinary. Almost like i'd love to be in that car at that moment and a good friend to them.
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 1:03 pm

One last thing about Eric's obsession with natural selection. I feel it was stemmed from his on insecurities. He was short and had a tiny frame. Definitely not a top tier genetic specimen and definitely be the runt that died first in the primal days of man where the strongest survived. So he told himself he would get to select who dies instead.

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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 3:31 pm

Yeah, I forgot to mention the Texaco gas station footage, but I can't make out the font there either. Do we know the backstory for it? I think they bought 6 propane tanks that morning. Why only one was recorded? When was it released?

Also, as for the bomb planting. It's still questioned by some whether that's really them, given how heavy the bombs were to carry. Remember that on April 22, they found bombs in the kitchen, and if it is them, Dylan never comes back. So, how did they plant those bombs, and is Dylan not coming back part of that?
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeMon Nov 26, 2018 3:46 pm

HanShotFirst wrote:
Theres nothing natural about a human deciding another human is inferior and killing them. Sure it's selection but has nothing to do with nature.

Well it depends on your views on humanity. Eric often wrote about the human nature, about the human instinct. He thought violence was natural for humans. While I don't agree with him on this (I think socializing is natural for humans, because it is part of their survival instinct), I do think humans also have natural urges and instinct and are not incompatible with nature. I think we are animals, a different category but still animals. So I don't agree with Eric when he said it was natural selection, but I don't think it is the total opposite either given that if we see the world as he saw it it could be a kind of natural selection indeed: people who act according to their nature survive while those who don't listen to their true nature are killed. Institutions and morals are not natural concepts, they are created by men. Those who obey them are killed by those who don't. Basically superior people, those who have self-awareness survive, those who are inferior die. He explained his point of view about human nature in the entry of his diary on 5/6/98:

Eric Harris wrote:
The human race sucks. human nature is smothered out by society, jobs, and work and school. instincts are deleted by laws. I see people say things that contradict themselves, or people that don't take any advantage to the gift of human life. they waste their minds on memorizing the stats of every college basketball player or how many words should be an a report when they should be using their brain on more important things. [...] Society may not realize what is happening but I have; you go to school, to get used to studying and learning how you're "supposed to" so that drains or filters out a little bit of human nature. but thats after your parents taught you whats right and wrong even though you may think differently, you still must to have more of your human nature blown out of your ass. society tries to make everyone act the same by burying all human nature and instincts. That's what school, laws, jobs, and parents do. If they realize it or not and them, the few who stick to their natural instincts are casted out as psychos or lunatics or strangers or just plain different. crazy, strange, weird, wild, these words are not bad or degrading.. if humans were let to live how we would naturally it would be chaos and anarchy and the human race wouldn't probably last that long, but hey guess what, thats how its supposed to be!!!!! society and goverments are only created to have order and calmness, which is exactly the opposite of pure human nature. take away all your laws and morals and just see what you can do. if the government was one entity it would be thinking "hey, lets make some order here and calm these crazy fucks down so we can be constructive and fight other governments in our own little so called self created "civilized world" and get rid of all those damn instincts everyone has" well shit I'm to tired right anymore tonight, so until next time, fuck you all -- 5/6/98

Edit - and this:

Eric Harris wrote:
NATURAL SELECTION. fucker should be shot. same thing with all those rich snotty toadies at my school. fuckers think they are higher than me and everyone else with all their $ just because they were born into it? Ich denk NEIN. BTW, "sorry" is just a word. it doesnt mean SHIT to me. everyone should be put to a test. an ULTIMATE DOOM test, see who can survive in an environtment using only smarts and military skills. put them in a doom world. no authority, no refuge, no BS copout excuses. If you cant figure out the area of a triangle or what "cation" means, you die! if you cant take down a demon w/ a chainsaw or kill a hell prince w/ a shotgun, you die! fucking snotty rich fuckheads [Censored by J.C.Sheriff Office] who rely on others or on sympathy or $ to get them through life should be put to this challenge. plus it would get rid of all the fat, retarded, crippled, stupid, dumb, ignorant, worthless people of this world. no one is worthy of this planet only me and who ever I choose. there is just no respect for anything higher than your fucking boss or parent. everyone should be shot out into space and only the people I saw should be left behind. 4/12/98
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PostSubject: Re: The T-Shirts   The T-Shirts Icon_minitimeTue Nov 27, 2018 12:52 pm

With what little evidence we have (the gas station footage)

Do you think Eric's shirt font was army text or more like the one is the Zero Hour movie?
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» An intentional dichotomy between E&D's T-shirts?
» Eric and Dylans shirts

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