Erics German skills

According to his friends, Eric was very much into German things overall. This can be seen in his use of German speech in his diary.
Well, despite his great interest in everything that was german, his knowledge about the language did not seem to be big, like I am going to show. 

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At page two he writes

Eric Harris wrote:

"and if you think I don’t know what I’m talking about then you can just “BUCK DICH” (bend over) and saugen mein hund! (suck my dog)

If he wanted to say, that there is a person who is considered as a dog and should bend over and suck something, then this sentence is correct. If Eric wanted to say, that there is a person who should bend over and suck his "dog", than the correct form would be: "Bück dich und saug meinen Hund".
I don't know if Eric really wrote "buck" instead of "bück", because although it is clear, what he does mean, the word "buck" does not exist. He wrote that with his hands, so basically it would not have been difficult to use an "ü" instead of "u". He also could have used "ue" and it would have been correct.

A few lines below this, he wrote "Ich denk Nein" ( I don't think so). The correct form would be "Ich denke nicht"

On page five, he wrote "Mit keine Fragen" (without questions). The correct form would be "Ohne Fragen".

I can not find the lines, where he writes "Fickt Du" (Fuck you). Maybe that was not from his diary, but from his website? I remember it as coming from his diary, but well...
The correct form would be "Fick dich".

So overall, he used wrong german speeches more often, that he used correct ones. Hehe, he probably could not wait to kill me, if he could read what I wrote here.

I always thought Eric liked German primarily because of Hitler and the bands he liked were German too.

I'm so glad you made this post Hale-Bopp. I have read a few accounts that Eric's German was not as accurate as he would have liked to think. In the instances you mention it's possible Eric just directly translated a list of words and therefore wrote it incorrectly. He very likely learnt most of his German from song lyrics and possibly the basics in German class.

I genuinely appreciate you posting this, Hale-Bopp, especially since you are a native of the country and language in question.

I agree with queenfarooq's post, too.

I've seen a number of people over the years attest to exactly what Hale-Bopp has said...I can't remember if they were native Germans or not, but I've read comments about how out of sorts Eric's version of "Deutsch" was.

He was just a beginner, and was learning a very rudimentary level of the language. It seems to me (although I don't understand or speak German myself) that he was still having difficulty "ordering" sentence structure and using possessive pronouns among many other things. This is something that seems to be very common with native English speakers while attempting to learn a new language.

And yes, Hale-Bopp, during that last portion of his life, Eric would probably be quite hurt to hear that his German skills were rather terrible, ESPECIALLY from a German native, but, oh well, the truth is the truth!

tfsa47090 wrote:

I genuinely appreciate you posting this, Hale-Bopp, especially since you are a native of the country and language in question.

I agree with queenfarooq's post, too.

I've seen a number of people over the years attest to exactly what Hale-Bopp has said...I can't remember if they were native Germans or not, but I've read comments about how out of sorts Eric's version of "Deutsch" was.

He was just a beginner, and was learning a very rudimentary level of the language. It seems to me (although I don't understand or speak German myself) that he was still having difficulty "ordering" sentence structure and using possessive pronouns among many other things. This is something that seems to be very common with native English speakers while attempting to learn a new language.

Yeah, I agree with this. And I am aware, that I also still make mistakes, when speaking or writing English, although I had in it school for nearly ten years. And so far I know, German is often described as a very difficult language to learn, if someone is not a native speaker, so I am not calling Eric stupid for his mistakes. I just thought it might be interesting and amusing. Good, that it seems to be.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

I genuinely appreciate you posting this, Hale-Bopp, especially since you are a native of the country and language in question.

I agree with queenfarooq's post, too.

I've seen a number of people over the years attest to exactly what Hale-Bopp has said...I can't remember if they were native Germans or not, but I've read comments about how out of sorts Eric's version of "Deutsch" was.

He was just a beginner, and was learning a very rudimentary level of the language. It seems to me (although I don't understand or speak German myself) that he was still having difficulty "ordering" sentence structure and using possessive pronouns among many other things. This is something that seems to be very common with native English speakers while attempting to learn a new language.

Yeah, I agree with this. And I am aware, that I also still make mistakes, when speaking or writing English, although I had in it school for more then ten years. And so far I know, German is often described as a very difficult language to learn, if someone is not a native speaker, so I am not calling Eric stupid for his mistakes. I just thought it might be interesting and amusing. Good, that it seems to be. 

I completely agree with everything you both said. It seems like Eric was very confident in his ability to speak German. I feel like the last thing he would want is to look stupid and the fact he was writing and probably speaking German incorrectly really contrasts this.  He was obviously convinced his German was perfect. He didn't know German well enough to speak it fluently but he seemed to think he did. Sometimes I wonder just how much he attempted to speak German in front of people, there are countless references in the 11k that he seemed to use German words or phrases both at school and at work. But in reality i wonder if this was just a passing thing or if he did it every day.
I know this is going slightly off topic but i wonder if anyone around him was aware that his German wasn't exactly perfect and didn't want to correct him? Doubtful but just something I thought about.

Eric was sloppy with his German the way he was sloppy with his English. He didn't have a good grasp on German grammar (but who, outside of the native speakers, does?) and some of the things he put into writing make me wince slightly. I think he understood enough of the language to be able to grasp rudimentary conversations/texts in it and be able to make a relatively proper translation of those, but he was by no means fluent in it and seemed to overestimate himself slightly. I don't know if it would have mattered to him (he didn't seem to care about his English so much?) but I don't think a lot of people in Littleton would've been in a position where they would've been able to call him out on incorrect use of German. It's not really a common language there the way it is over here, or so it seems.

thedragonrampant wrote:

Eric was sloppy with his German the way he was sloppy with his English.

Slam dunk.  That sums it up perfectly!   
I wince at his 'journals' and rant website where he glaringly misspells words and says something along the lines ("close enough").  He couldn't even bother to use the web browser to look it up and ,thereby, maintain some semblance of an intelligent appearing reputation. When it came to school work, he had to be diligent and precise to maintain those A's and B's for his parents sake but on his own time, he couldn't give a rats arse.

thedragonrampant wrote:

He didn't have a good grasp on German grammar (but who, outside of the native speakers, does?) and some of the things he put into writing make me wince slightly. I think he understood enough of the language to be able to grasp rudimentary conversations/texts in it and be able to make a relatively proper translation of those, but he was by no means fluent in it and seemed to overestimate himself slightly. I don't know if it would have mattered to him (he didn't seem to care about his English so much?) but I don't think a lot of people in Littleton would've been in a position where they would've been able to call him out on incorrect use of German. It's not really a common language there the way it is over here, or so it seems.

In the US, schools teach additional languages far too late and by the time they offer it, the instruction is pretty textbook archaic.  So, unless Eric self taught on his own time, what you see is what you get  - pseudo German!  Eric would then incorporate lyrics from german bands to give his fake german a little flourish.  I'm sure he figured if he heard it in Rammstein lyrics, it had to be correct and bad ass. He'd insert it into a small phrase he learned in german class and Voila! Eric Harris Style German!   The narrow minded suburban Americans in Littleton would hear anything that came out of his (and Dylan's) mouth, and because it sounded foreign and they couldn't understand it, the result of that right there in and of itself would have been the highlight of  satisfaction for Eric. The fact that it was not accurate german was a moot point for him. It's not like anyone would correct him, right?   Eric got what he needed from it: a brutal sounding language which he personally connected with the infamous Hitler era Germany (yes, the german language is a somewhat harsh sounding to  american english speakers - no offense to German folks  ).  It was a shortcut for Eric - to elevate his status to mysterious and superior because others weren't in on the indecipherable jokes or phrases used in front of them. Accuracy be damned!

As a side note, I do recall that a german exchange student went to Columbine 98-99 and Eric spent a lot of time chatting her up.  One can hope she corrected him on some of his embarrassing phrases. ;)

[quote="InFiNiNcEX5"]

thedragonrampant wrote:

  Eric got what he needed from it: a brutal sounding language which he personally connected with the infamous Hitler era Germany (yes, the german language is a somewhat harsh sounding to  american english speakers - no offense to German folks  ).  

Frrrrrechheit!
;) 

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

As a side note, I do recall that a german exchange student went to Columbine 98-99 and Eric spent a lot of time chatting her up. One can hope she corrected him on some of his embarrassing phrases. 

Aah, I heard from the german exchange student, but I never knew, that Eric had contact with her! I wonder what happened to her?

Hale-Bopp wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

I genuinely appreciate you posting this, Hale-Bopp, especially since you are a native of the country and language in question.

I agree with queenfarooq's post, too.

I've seen a number of people over the years attest to exactly what Hale-Bopp has said...I can't remember if they were native Germans or not, but I've read comments about how out of sorts Eric's version of "Deutsch" was.

He was just a beginner, and was learning a very rudimentary level of the language. It seems to me (although I don't understand or speak German myself) that he was still having difficulty "ordering" sentence structure and using possessive pronouns among many other things. This is something that seems to be very common with native English speakers while attempting to learn a new language.

Yeah, I agree with this. And I am aware, that I also still make mistakes, when speaking or writing English, although I had in it school for more then ten years. And so far I know, German is often described as a very difficult language to learn, if someone is not a native speaker, so I am not calling Eric stupid for his mistakes. I just thought it might be interesting and amusing. Good, that it seems to be. 

Your mistakes aren't too bad at all! You communicate in English much more efficiently than quite a few people I know, and English is their only language!

Your post doesn't come across as implying Eric was stupid whatsoever. I'm glad you pointed it out, and it is very interesting AND amusing!  

I also agree with many others who've posted here; his misspellings and poor grammar in English alone were quite vast, and frankly, often amusing!

It seems to me he wanted to try and look cool by using German, but I am wondering if he was even that good at it?

I already made a thread about this:

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He was not that very well with it, to say it shortly.

Are there any reports about parts of the Basement Tapes, where Eric and Dylan speak German? Because I bet, listening to this would be a remarkable experience, haha.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Are there any reports about parts of the Basement Tapes, where Eric and Dylan speak German? Because I bet, listening to this would be a remarkable experience, haha.

Ich weiß nicht.

The notion of "correctness" in language (and most other things) is an arbitrary social construct. There is no good reason why the word "tree" should refer to the object tree, other than linguistic inertia and social convention. If I could convince enough English-speakers that "rotenkä" is a better word for tree than "tree", then rotenkä would be widely regarded as a valid English word.

Thus, instead of saying that Eric spoke German "incorrectly", we should say that he inadvertently invented a new German dialect - Harris-Deutsch.

LPorter101 wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Are there any reports about parts of the Basement Tapes, where Eric and Dylan speak German? Because I bet, listening to this would be a remarkable experience, haha.

Ich weiß nicht.

The notion of "correctness" in language (and most other things) is an arbitrary social construct. There is no good reason why the word "tree" should refer to the object tree, other than linguistic inertia and social convention. If I could convince enough English-speakers that "rotenkä" is a better word for tree than "tree", then rotenkä would be widely regarded as a valid English word.

Thus, instead of saying that Eric spoke German "incorrectly", we should say that he inadvertently invented a new German dialect - Harris-Deutsch.

Since Im studying German language and literature, I know that you are correct with this. But we still can say that Eric's use of the language didn't fit German standarts.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Are there any reports about parts of the Basement Tapes, where Eric and Dylan speak German? Because I bet, listening to this would be a remarkable experience, haha.

Ich weiß nicht.

The notion of "correctness" in language (and most other things) is an arbitrary social construct. There is no good reason why the word "tree" should refer to the object tree, other than linguistic inertia and social convention. If I could convince enough English-speakers that "rotenkä" is a better word for tree than "tree", then rotenkä would be widely regarded as a valid English word.

Thus, instead of saying that Eric spoke German "incorrectly", we should say that he inadvertently invented a new German dialect - Harris-Deutsch.

Since Im studying German language and literature, I know that you are correct with this. But we still can say that Eric's use of the language didn't fit German standarts.

Ja, das stimmt.

I have been told that, when I speak German, I sound like I have Down's syndrome.

And I roll my Rs. That's because I hear Spanish all the time.

Swedes say that Danes sound like they are trying to throw up when they talk. But I'm neither Swedish nor Danish, so that anecdote is totally irrelevant.

010118 - Eric took German in Grade 9 for two semesters: semester 1 he got an "A", semester 2 he got a "B". He also took German in Grade 10 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026316 - Eric took German in Grade 11 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026315 - Eric took German in Grade 12 for 1 semester: he received a "B".

026319 - Eric DID NOT take German in semester 2 of Grade 12


*So, it looks like Eric had been learning German for at least 3.5 years !

sororityalpha wrote:

010118 - Eric took German in Grade 9 for two semesters: semester 1 he got an "A", semester 2 he got a "B". He also took German in Grade 10 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026316 - Eric took German in Grade 11 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026315 - Eric took German in Grade 12 for 1 semester: he received a "B".

026319 - Eric DID NOT take German in semester 2 of Grade 12


*So, it looks like Eric had been learning German for at least 3.5 years !

Have classes in high school of some language for 3/5 years is still not enough to really speak the language. I have English classes in the elementary school and high school (12 years in total) and what I learned there was always the basics, when I went to an institute to learn English,in the end I got to know more than my own English teacher from the school. Maybe Eric thought that he knew enough german or he just use german to write a few sentences without notice that he had mistakes. Thats really common with people that is having classes of some language in the school.

Mj2beat wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

010118 - Eric took German in Grade 9 for two semesters: semester 1 he got an "A", semester 2 he got a "B". He also took German in Grade 10 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026316 - Eric took German in Grade 11 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026315 - Eric took German in Grade 12 for 1 semester: he received a "B".

026319 - Eric DID NOT take German in semester 2 of Grade 12


*So, it looks like Eric had been learning German for at least 3.5 years !

Have classes in high school of some language for 3/5 years is still not enough to really speak the language. I have English classes in the elementary school and high school (12 years in total) and what I learned there was always the basics,  when I went to an institute to learn English,in the end I got to know more than my own English teacher from the school. Maybe Eric thought that he knew enough german or he just use german  to write a few sentences without notice that he had mistakes. Thats really common with people that is having classes of some language in the school.

I took Spanish for 3 years in high school and graduated with the ability to ask where the bathroom was and count to 100. Language classes in American public schools are pretty much a joke.

Wideawake wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

010118 - Eric took German in Grade 9 for two semesters: semester 1 he got an "A", semester 2 he got a "B". He also took German in Grade 10 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026316 - Eric took German in Grade 11 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026315 - Eric took German in Grade 12 for 1 semester: he received a "B".

026319 - Eric DID NOT take German in semester 2 of Grade 12


*So, it looks like Eric had been learning German for at least 3.5 years !

Have classes in high school of some language for 3/5 years is still not enough to really speak the language. I have English classes in the elementary school and high school (12 years in total) and what I learned there was always the basics,  when I went to an institute to learn English,in the end I got to know more than my own English teacher from the school. Maybe Eric thought that he knew enough german or he just use german  to write a few sentences without notice that he had mistakes. Thats really common with people that is having classes of some language in the school.

I took Spanish for 3 years in high school and graduated with the ability to ask where the bathroom was and count to 100. Language classes in American public schools are pretty much a joke.

I had english in school for nearly ten years, but my english skills were horrible, when I joined at SBB. I could easily read English texts and understand them, but if you look at my early posts at SBB...my sentence-structure is just very disorganized. I think being a User at this and the two previous forums increased my English skills faster than any School.
Ok, I might should mention that my English teacher was sick for one and a half year, when I was about 13, what lead to a big loss in my English development. Most of the people from other classes had bigger English skills, than people from my class, because their teacher wasn't away for such a long time.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Wideawake wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

Have classes in high school of some language for 3/5 years is still not enough to really speak the language. I have English classes in the elementary school and high school (12 years in total) and what I learned there was always the basics,  when I went to an institute to learn English,in the end I got to know more than my own English teacher from the school. Maybe Eric thought that he knew enough german or he just use german  to write a few sentences without notice that he had mistakes. Thats really common with people that is having classes of some language in the school.

I took Spanish for 3 years in high school and graduated with the ability to ask where the bathroom was and count to 100. Language classes in American public schools are pretty much a joke.

I had english in school for nearly ten years, but my english skills were horrible, when I joined at SBB. I could easily read English texts and understand them, but if you look at my early posts at SBB...my sentence-structure is just very disorganized. I think being a User at this and the two previous forums increased my English skills faster than any School.
Ok, I might should mention that my English teacher was sick for one and a half year, when I was about 13, what lead to a big loss in my English development. Most of the people from other classes had bigger English skills, than people from my class, because their teacher wasn't away for such a long time.

Not only in the public schools of the United States. The language classes in public schools are a joke everywhere. That is everywhere (and maybe with a few exceptions) because the text books just bring the basic. In the school I just learned in english: the sports, colors, numbers, past and present and that kind of things. They dont teach the sentence-structure for example, like they should  and the teachers are not very good and sometimes they get sick or pregnat like what happened with Hale-Bopp so you dont go out of high school speaking very good some language like spanish or english.

Quote :

Not only in the public schools of the United States. The language classes in public schools are a joke everywhere. That is everywhere (and maybe with a few exceptions) because the text books just bring the basic. In the school I just learned in english: the sports, colors, numbers, past and present and that kind of things. They dont teach the sentence-structure for example, like they should  and the teachers are not very good and sometimes they get sick or pregnat like what happened with Hale-Bopp so you dont go out of high school speaking very good some language like spanish or english.

1And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech. 2And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there. 3And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter. 4And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. 5And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded. 6And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do. 7Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. 8So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city. 9Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Yakka foob mog. Grug pubbawup zink wattoom gazork. Chumble spuzz.

Wideawake wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

010118 - Eric took German in Grade 9 for two semesters: semester 1 he got an "A", semester 2 he got a "B". He also took German in Grade 10 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026316 - Eric took German in Grade 11 for two semesters: he received a "B" in both semesters.

026315 - Eric took German in Grade 12 for 1 semester: he received a "B".

026319 - Eric DID NOT take German in semester 2 of Grade 12


*So, it looks like Eric had been learning German for at least 3.5 years !

Have classes in high school of some language for 3/5 years is still not enough to really speak the language. I have English classes in the elementary school and high school (12 years in total) and what I learned there was always the basics,  when I went to an institute to learn English,in the end I got to know more than my own English teacher from the school. Maybe Eric thought that he knew enough german or he just use german  to write a few sentences without notice that he had mistakes. Thats really common with people that is having classes of some language in the school.

I took Spanish for 3 years in high school and graduated with the ability to ask where the bathroom was and count to 100. Language classes in American public schools are pretty much a joke.

Spanish is difficult, so if you were able to say at least something correctly, just high five yourself

I've been studying English since I was 7. Even though, I'm still making mistakes because it's not my mother's tongue. It's really challenging to speak another language when you're not using it on a daily basis.

In school, English classes were a waste of time. I think I've learned more English watching movies/tv shows than in high school.

Indeed, for me the internet forums were the best teachers.

Did Dylan take any German classes or did he have any interest in it? Did Eric study any other languages beside German (e.g. Spanish)?

Just a while ago I was listening to the song "Sonne" by Rammstein and thought to myself that it was one of the songs by one of his favourite bands that Eric never heard while he was still alive (Sonne was released in 2001). As a kid I learned my first words in German thanks to Sonne (and those words were of course eins, zwei, drei, vier, fünf, sechs, sieben, acht, neun and... aus!).

Guest wrote:

A few lines below this, he wrote "Ich denk Nein" ( I don't think so). The correct form would be "Ich denke nicht"

I think Eric quoted the song "Bestrafe mich" by Rammstein:

Bestrafe mich, bestrafe mich
du meinst: "Ja"
und ich denk: "Nein!"

Eric didn't use any punctuation, so I'm not sure if he understood the context correctly ("I think: 'No!'") or did he really think that "ich denk nein" would translate as "I do not know" in English (in which case "ich denk(e) nicht" would be the correct form).

N/A

Never knew that Eric took German classes. Judging by his writing he seemed okay at it. Recieving a "B" in a language class is something to be proud of, I'd say. Rammstein probably helped with that. Anyone know if he listened to other German bands? I'm not so in tune with any killers' music tastes but I know McVeigh liked Queen, lol. I wonder what Eric would think of this: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I think Eric was into German because his 2 favourite bands, Rammstein and KMFDM were German and he liked the lyrics. He also had German heritage so that might be why as well.