Eric and Dylan's suicides.

Any discussions on that?

I believe that Dylan killed himself after Eric, but only just.

I am pretty sure that Patrick Ireland heard Dylans death rattle, when he woke up from the ringing in his ears(gunshots?)

Agree that Dylan shot himself. I'm not sure if it was simultaneous. Probably close to it. I do think the coughing Ireland heard was Dylan aspirating on his own blood. I wonder why Eric chose to stuck the gun in his mouth. Did he research the surest way to do it? A gunshot to the head is pretty likely to be lethal but you can survive it, as we saw with the library survivors.
The photos of them dead in the library bother me a lot and I really wish people would quit posting them. It's disrespectful to their families. And they make me desperately sad. Whatever swagger and big talk they hid behind alive, those photos emphasize how heartbreakingly young and human they were. Upright with trench coats and sunglasses on, holding guns, they looked like men. Laying dead on the floor, they're all skinny arms and gangly legs. Ugh. Now I've myself sad all over again :/

BurnIt wrote:

I wonder why Eric chose to stuck the gun in his mouth. Did he research the surest way to do it?

Other than perhaps through under the chin, it's basically the only feasible to hold a shotgun to your head while retaining stability.
He also probably figured that going from under the chin would reduce the effects (regardless of how minor/major, I guess), and I feel that
Harris did not want to take ANY risks of surviving. He also had the 9mm carbine and perhaps even Dylan's Tec as options (I'm sure Dylan would have let him use it if he asked...)
But they were "only" 9mm.

Through mouth = more stability & "accuracy", more direct hit. More energy. He may have researched it, but I strangely doubt it.

BurnIt wrote:

Agree that Dylan shot himself. I'm not sure if it was simultaneous. Probably close to it. I do think the coughing Ireland heard was Dylan aspirating on his own blood. I wonder why Eric chose to stuck the gun in his mouth. Did he research the surest way to do it? A gunshot to the head is pretty likely to be lethal but you can survive it, as we saw with the library survivors.
The photos of them dead in the library bother me a lot and I really wish people would quit posting them. It's disrespectful to their families. And they make me desperately sad. Whatever swagger and big talk they hid behind alive, those photos emphasize how heartbreakingly young and human they were. Upright with trench coats and sunglasses on, holding guns, they looked like men. Laying dead on the floor, they're all skinny arms and gangly legs. Ugh. Now I've myself sad all over again :/

I completely agree about the photos. They never should have been released in the first place and I'm not sure why people would want those pictures all over their tumblr.

They weren't meant to be released; they were leaked. The National Enquirer picked them up.
I think some people post them because they like gore, some people post them in an attempt to eliminate or at least reduce the glorification of them.
But most people I see on the tag post them in a "Look what society did to them" way.

I know they were likely leaked for malicious reasons but if that's true then it worked entirely the opposite way in my case. I feel so much sadness for those boys when I see those photos. Maybe it's just me but seeing them dead just drives home their humanity.

Thankyou for clearing that up. I cringe everytime I see those photos and I cannot believe there's even a puzzle about it.

I guess it's a question of feel too much or feel too little maybe

CatherineM813 wrote:

BurnIt wrote:

Agree that Dylan shot himself. I'm not sure if it was simultaneous. Probably close to it. I do think the coughing Ireland heard was Dylan aspirating on his own blood. I wonder why Eric chose to stuck the gun in his mouth. Did he research the surest way to do it? A gunshot to the head is pretty likely to be lethal but you can survive it, as we saw with the library survivors.
The photos of them dead in the library bother me a lot and I really wish people would quit posting them. It's disrespectful to their families. And they make me desperately sad. Whatever swagger and big talk they hid behind alive, those photos emphasize how heartbreakingly young and human they were. Upright with trench coats and sunglasses on, holding guns, they looked like men. Laying dead on the floor, they're all skinny arms and gangly legs. Ugh. Now I've myself sad all over again :/

I completely agree about the photos. They never should have been released in the first place and I'm not sure why people would want those pictures all over their tumblr.

I second this
It's pretty bad anytime I see them

Dylan's original landing spot when he shot himself proves that Eric was dead before Dylan shot himself.

I know. But I sometimes wonder if it was a split second , as in near simultaneous, or if maybe Dylan waited for a minute. I don't think he did. But I couldn't say why.

I don't think Dylan hesitated, or had to try to convince himself to do what he had dreamed about for several years (suicide, that is), I think he may have just waited long enough to make sure that Eric went through with it before he shot himself with the Tec-9. But whether he watched (maybe out of the corner of his eye based on their positioning) or just closed his eyes and listened for the shot and then pulled the trigger is up to debate. I tend to favor the latter scenario, it seems to make more sense to me, as I don't think Dylan would have wanted to watch his friend's brains splatter all over the place. So I think perhaps the time difference between the shots would have been around a second or so, but not much longer. If anyone else can present a reason why it would have been much longer, I would be interested in hearing it, certainly.

Right before they killed themselves they were exchanging fire with the cops. To them it would have looked like a whole army had arrived. I think they were in a hurry to kill themselves before they were captured. The police fire probably drove them away from the windows, toward the corner of the library. Eric had undoubtedly researched and/or given a great deal of thought to the mechanics of how to blow his brains out effectively. Dylan obviously had planned a symbolic ritual around his own death, so they each proceeded on their own line of suicide. I think Dylan heard Eric's shot and he may have even seen his death at least for split second.

In the Rampart Range vid @ 9:49 you can see Eric "kiss" Arlene, in a premonition or foreshadowing of his suicide. He probably rotated the gun this way in the library, but he was sitting down. He was doing everything he could to make sure he got it right. It was a tactical, clinical approach, made all the more ironic by his "Natural Selection" shirt. He wanted everyone to know that he had self-selected himself out as being unfit for existence.

Dylan was kneeling when he shot himself. His suicide was more ritualistic and emotional. It was almost as though he were offering himself to some strange, personal deity, maybe the "she" that  he mentions repeatedly in his journals.

Thanks gustopoet, I like what you say here, it gives me a better vision of the suicides, and makes sense that Eric's suicide is a violent, graphic, obliterating one (as his rants in his journal would suggest), and Dylan's suicide a more "thoughtful" (weird word I know), ritualistic one that is reminiscent of his thoughts about the unobtainable "She" in his journal.  As their final acts on this earth on that horrible day, it does seem to reason that the act of suicide would be a personal one to each boy, and more different than similar.  This has made me think now that perhaps there was not a "countdown" of sorts, not even a silent hand-signal one which I had suggested in another link.  I tend to think they may have just sat/kneeled down relatively close together, and committed the acts fairly close together in time, without any chit-chat (perhaps this had already been discussed either on the way back to the library, or on a previous day).  Dylan's suicide may have required a little more "ceremony" as you suggest, and would not have been as quick and rapid as Eric's.  I still think it is possible that Dylan may have only heard Eric's gunshot and then closed his eyes and proceeded to join "Her" in oblivion.  In this scenario, perhaps Patrick Ireland wouldn't have heard any dialogue anyways between the two, even if he had been conscious.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Thanks gustopoet, I like what you say here, it gives me a better vision of the suicides

Well, most of what's in my version comes from Jenn, but thanks anyway.   

As far as what they boys may have said to each other at the end, it's a fascinating question. The noise, confusion, and peril of the situation pretty much eliminates any chance for complicated last-words. If they had any final, intimate words for each other, they probably exchanged them the night before. As NBK came shattering to an end, I think their last words were mostly about ammo and the cops. I see it like this: they are exchanging fire with the cops, Dylan shouts out "Reb, I'm low on ammo!" Eric shouts back something like "There's too many anyway!"

They can see they are hopelessly outgunned, helicopters, swat teams, a tank... They move back from the windows and into the corner of the library.  

Then, maybe as Jenn suggested elsewhere, Eric asked Dylan if he thought the final spot in the library corner was good, then Dylan lit his last Molotov and took off his necklace, etc as Eric was sitting down and putting the shotgun in his mouth, and then they each pulled the trigger within a split-second of each other.

Dylan took his necklace off?? I didn't know that. I wonder how I missed that piece of info. I like the way you describe the scenario though. They probably did talk about it the night before, I doubt at Outback though, haha, wasn't there other people with them at their "last supper."?

As far as it goes, according to the original plan, they boys were stationed in separate parking-lots. There was at least a slight chance they would not see each other again after the bombs went off and the shooting started. So if they had wanted to make any kind of final goodbye it would have been the night before or sometime during the early morning of NBK.

I like discussing the suicides. I also like discussing the Cafeteria bombs. I've read everything I possibly could about the suicides. I've studied the suicide photos excessively at one point in time. I wanted to understand everything I could about them. I blew the suicide photos up to a really large size so that I could study them better. I wanted to know exactly WHAT happened. I believe my opinions on how the suicides went down is pretty accurate. And as "Gustopoet" said, I've made other posts with detailed descriptions of how I think it happened.  Remember, it is just my opinion though. I have no proof. But I have put a lot of time and thought and studied those photos a great deal.

I do believe that Dylan saw Eric shoot himself. All the evidence would suggest that Eric was dead before Dylan. How long before? It could be seconds; it could be longer. No one knows for sure. One thing I am certain of though is Eric's time of death. Eric stopped shooting at the cops at 12:05 P.M., by 12:08 P.M, when the sprinkler system turned on to put out a Molotov cocktail that Dylan lit on the table beside him, Eric was already dead. Pieces of Eric's brain was underneath the exploded Molotov.

My thoughts are that Eric shot himself while Dylan was lighting the Molotov or just got done lighting it. I do not believe that Eric waited for Dylan to kneel down with him. I think he decided it was time, sat down with his back up against the bookshelf, had his knees bent up towards his chest, put the gun in his mouth and then shot himself. Like I said before, the gun flew under his leg, his knees dropped on top of it and his legs were now straight in front of him instead of bent.

See, the evidence proves that Dylan landed on top of Eric's leg. He landed face down on top of Eric's leg. The blood on Eric's boot is an exact match to the blood on Dylan's arm. It is impossible that they shot themselves at the same time or that Eric murdered Dylan (this is another theory that was going around) or that Dylan died first. More evidence is that pieces of Dylan's brain and his hat also landed on Eric's leg. Eric's knees were bent when he pulled that trigger. Of that I am sure. There is no other possible way for his shotgun to land UNDER his leg unless it fell on top of it after he was already dead.

I don't know how long Dylan waited. I am sure it wasn't long but I am almost certain he saw Eric dead. I don't know if he took his belongings off before or after Eric was dead. I wish I did know. I hate not knowing.

Dylan did take off his necklace, yes. He took off his necklace and earring. These things were found in a small pile "next to his body" and they were thrown into his body bag with him.

I wrote a lot more about the suicides in another thread if you want to read that. Like I said, it is one of my favorite discussions, so when it arises, chances are, I will have something to say about it.

Jenn wrote:

I don't know how long Dylan waited. I am sure it wasn't long but I am almost certain he saw Eric dead. I don't know if he took his belongings off before or after Eric was dead. I wish I did know. I hate not knowing.

I bet he was taking off his stuff just as Eric shot himself. I agree that he probably saw Eric dead. It's interesting because it shows that they both remained somewhat autonomous even as they were so incredibly close and interdependent.

Jenn wrote:

I like discussing the suicides. I also like discussing the Cafeteria bombs. I've read everything I possibly could about the suicides. I've studied the suicide photos excessively at one point in time. I wanted to understand everything I could about them. I blew the suicide photos up to a really large size so that I could study them better. I wanted to know exactly WHAT happened. I believe my opinions on how the suicides went down is pretty accurate. And as "Gustopoet" said, I've made other posts with detailed descriptions of how I think it happened.  Remember, it is just my opinion though. I have no proof. But I have put a lot of time and thought and studied those photos a great deal.

I do believe that Dylan saw Eric shoot himself. All the evidence would suggest that Eric was dead before Dylan. How long before? It could be seconds; it could be longer. No one knows for sure. One thing I am certain of though is Eric's time of death. Eric stopped shooting at the cops at 12:05 P.M., by 12:08 P.M, when the sprinkler system turned on to put out a Molotov cocktail that Dylan lit on the table beside him, Eric was already dead. Pieces of Eric's brain was underneath the exploded Molotov.

My thoughts are that Eric shot himself while Dylan was lighting the Molotov or just got done lighting it. I do not believe that Eric waited for Dylan to kneel down with him. I think he decided it was time, sat down with his back up against the bookshelf, had his knees bent up towards his chest, put the gun in his mouth and then shot himself. Like I said before, the gun flew under his leg, his knees dropped on top of it and his legs were now straight in front of him instead of bent.

See, the evidence proves that Dylan landed on top of Eric's leg. He landed face down on top of Eric's leg. The blood on Eric's boot is an exact match to the blood on Dylan's arm. It is impossible that they shot themselves at the same time or that Eric murdered Dylan (this is another theory that was going around) or that Dylan died first. More evidence is that pieces of Dylan's brain and his hat also landed on Eric's leg. Eric's knees were bent when he pulled that trigger. Of that I am sure. There is no other possible way for his shotgun to land UNDER his leg unless it fell on top of it after he was already dead.

I don't know how long Dylan waited. I am sure it wasn't long but I am almost certain he saw Eric dead. I don't know if he took his belongings off before or after Eric was dead. I wish I did know. I hate not knowing.

Dylan did take off his necklace, yes. He took off his necklace and earring. These things were found in a small pile "next to his body" and they were thrown into his body bag with him.

I wrote a lot more about the suicides in another thread if you want to read that. Like I said, it is one of my favorite discussions, so when it arises, chances are, I will have something to say about it.

It makes a lot of sense.

Maybe it was less stressful to do it on their own terms than to synchronize themselves. The more impulsive the gesture, the less chances to hesitate. Probably at that point, seeing Eric's brain spatters would not be too troubling or scary to Dylan, only a motivator to do the same. Still, if it went down the way described above (I think it did), Dylan took a hell of a long time to follow suit. Must have been tough.

I wonder if Eric said something to his friend, if his suicide was meant to be some example to Dylan (''Look at me, I'm gonna do it'').

Another aspect of the suicides that I find interesting is the fact that the Columbine library had been a place of sanctuary for Eric and Dylan. In No Easy Answers Brooks Brown writes:

"During freshman year, we formed a circle of friends that included Zach Heckler, Nick Baumgart, Eric, and Dylan. Our favorite place to hang out was the Columbine library.

"The library was a great place to trade jokes, or sit and talk about how much we hated the school..." (Brown, 47-48).

I think it's interesting that the library wound up being the "epicenter" of NBK. Nick Baumgart, of course, was added to E&D's "shitlist."

Yes, and unintentionally so. But I think they gravitated to it maybe even subconsciously to a certain extent. I think due to this thread we do have a pretty accurate idea of how the suicides went down. Jenn has done a meticulous job and I feel as if Eric may have even gotten a little bit impatient with Dylan and just decided to shoot himself while Dylan was fiddling around with his necklace and earring.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Yes, and unintentionally so.  But I think they gravitated to it maybe even subconsciously to a certain extent.  I think due to this thread we do have a pretty accurate idea of how the suicides went down. Jenn has done a meticulous job and I feel as if Eric may have even gotten a little bit impatient with Dylan and just decided to shoot himself while Dylan was fiddling around with his necklace and earring.  

If you watch the cafeteria footage below @ 3:08 just as the boys are leaving prior to going to the library and killing themselves Eric is already bounding ahead and Dylan is dragging his heels a bit, looking around and taking in the scenery. The difference in their temperaments and energy is quite evident.

ThoughtBox wrote:

 But I think they gravitated to it maybe even subconsciously to a certain extent.   

Maybe not even so subconsciously. There is a lot more to make out of the library connections both symbolically and empirically. For example, the boys showed specific animosity toward the library itself, the computers, the books, etc. There is also a lot more going on with Peggy Dodd and NBK, I suspect, than what is immediately visible. She was #1 on Eric's shit-list and had kicked Dylan off the computers. when the shooting started she told a student that she knew the boys wanted to kill her and she hid in the periodicals room.

"Teacher Peggy Dodd was in the library when she looked out the window and saw Klebold “standing on the hill, just shooting.”  She recognized him as a student in one of her computer classes the previous year and remembered him as a troublemaker who hacked into computers and wore tall “Nazi” boots and an overcoat.  According to Dodd, Klebold was holding a weapon with both hands and, using a sweeping motion, was pointing it toward the south parking lot.

Dodd also recalled seeing teacher Dave Sanders running down the hallway to the north in front of the library.  He motioned with his hands that they should stay in the library.  Sanders, at that time, did not appear wounded."

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My feeling is the boys had been effectively chased out of the commons by the "jocks" and "bitches" and then had their library sanctuary spoiled by the teachers and administration. I think they went after the cafeteria and library specifically in a kind of territorial vengeance. This is true in regard to both the original (bomb) plan and the improvised (shooting) plan. Both targeted the cafeteria and library.

They killed themselves in the spot in the school where they had always felt safest after reclaiming it in blood from the "authorities."

What I fond very interesting, albeit incredibly sad, was reading in Eric's journals about the plans they had to escape off to Mexico (or some place where they couldn't be found, IIRC). Part of me feels like maybe they believed this didn't have to be the end of their lives, that they could go on.

Maybe the explored the different scenarios before 4/20 and on that day, once they realized they had virtually no way to escape (which is silly, considering they could've somehow hidden in the school or changed clothes and deny all responsibility*/lawyer up, I don't know...) they went the suicide route.

*I do realize even Eric's father had called 9-1-1 involving him in the shootings so I doubt he could've denied responsibility.