Patti Nielson, Lois Kean and Carole Weld.

Patti Nielson is a hero IMO. After luckily surviving Eric's murder attempt. She had several options.
 After been shot at and surviving ,Patti saw the size of the holes in the glass panels of the west entrance doors and knew it wasn't a prank. She began to crawl away on her hands and knees. She could have ran east and reached the east exit and she would have been safely away from E&D. Then she could have called 911. She ran into the library and grabbed the phone and called 911. She didn't have to do that ,she could of thought of HER OWN safety and ran straight to an exit door.

 Patti gets an awful lot of abuse from the trolls and she DOES NOT (IMO) deserve it. A heck of a lot of people would have ran straight out of the school and that is understandable , because surviving a murder attempt must be flaming scary as hell. Why stay in the school and risk getting shot at again? The next bullets aimed at her may very well have killed her. She did her duty. She ran into the library ( not just to call 911 ) ,as i have said ,Patti could have made that call on the other side of the school and far away from E&D. She knew that E&D were entering the west entrance ( at the moment she was shot at ). She thought about the kids and actively tried to protect them by ordering them to get out of sight and hide under the tables. She could hear the gun shots and explosion were getting nearer and STILL STAYED with the kids. Patti isn't a coward. She is a hero. 

Could she have done anymore ? Maybe and maybe not. I am not so sure about Lois Kean and Carole Weld. They were both in the library. Carole went into a conference room which is the one furthest north and next to the northwest exit. Looking out of the west window Carole saw Eric leaning against the new fence ( about 20 feet away from Carole ) and was cursing his gun.( jammed? ) She saw a boy lying in a fetal position and another injured boy was being dragged to safety. Carole went back into the library and asked Richard Long to come and have a look at what she saw and asked Richard if it " was for real ." Richard said it was for real and they went back into the library.

 Carole sees Brian Anderson lying on the floor after being shot in the company of Patti. Richard leaves the library. Carole and Lois go into the RNN room ( BY THEMSELVES ) with a key and lock themselves in the sound booth. They both went in alone. I do not understand why they didn't get as many kids as possible into the RNN. The kids were left to fend for themselves while C&L safely locked themselves in the RNN. Do you think C&L should have taken as many kids as possible with then in the RNN room?

I don't think you can blame them really. Sure, they were not heroes but cowards? No, not in my book anyway. They obviously went into fight/flight mode and when for the most primitive human instinct i.e survival.

Moseley wrote:

I don't think you can blame them really. Sure, they were not heroes but cowards? No, not in my book anyway. They obviously went into fight/flight mode and when for the most primitive human instinct i.e survival.

Hi Moseley , i'm not saying Carole and Lois were cowards. They saw Eric outside near the west entrance ( Carole & Lois were in the most northern conference room ) and ran back into the library and they had about 5 minutes to act. During that 5 minutes E&D were well away from the library. E&D entered the school via the west entrance ( where Patti & Brian were shot ) and continued on walking east ( away from the library ) Carole & Lois could have herded as many students as possible into the RNN room and been safe and secure in there ( as were Carole & Lois )

I haven't really done much search into the 11k document, does it mention that Carole and Lois known there are two gunmen? Maybe they spotted only one or even worse they presumed there to be more than two. If I put myself in their predicament my first guess would be to anticipating the worse, that is the school was under siege by a whole gang. I've once been confronted by some chavs (since we're both from England, you'll pretty much know who they are) at first there was only three but instantly about ten or so more came out of the shadows, I took my chances and sprinted like an Olympic runner. Granted my situation wasn't as volatile, it's better to be safe than sorry and that's what I believe Carole & Lois did.

If I remember well, the staff that came into the Library right before E & D entered wanted to take the kids out of the room.  One male staff said something to the effect ''we have to go, now!'' but Patti had already had them hide under the desks.

It's always freeze or flee, isn't it? And in that case panic sets in and you have only a few seconds to make a decision. It went Patti's way. But considering calling her or others ''cowards'' is out of the question, I think. They did the best they could in those circumstances and are survivors. They have to live with the decisions they made at that time, forever and ever, replaying them in their minds more often than we think of our mothers.

That reminds me of another school shooting I'm well familiar with: Polytechnique, 1989, in Canada. When Marc Lépine entered the room to separate women from men in order to kill the women, the men just went on the other side of the room as Marc Lépine had asked them. After the shooting, many asked the men: ''Why did you not do anything? Why did you not, all guys that you were in that engineering class, jump the shooter?'' The men survivors were so taken by guilt and other feelings that some of them committed suicide as a result of those accusations.

I wouldn't ever say she or anyone at Columbine was a coward, but I would like to say she did not respond appropriately. I mean this in the sense that most of the casualties were caused in the library because everyone in there did not evacuate. Rather than having all the inhabitants run out of the room through the hallway and exit she knew the killers were not in, she decided that having them have tables over their heads was a better alternative.

She can't really be blamed for that, as it was the natural response I suppose for any teacher. Mr.Sanders did the same thing in the cafeteria in the opening stage of the shooting, but he quickly changed his mind and saved every single kid in there by having them run out. If that cafeteria was still packed with kids when Eric and Dylan went down those stairs, there is no doubt they would have continued their massacre as they had in the Library. I would say that Patti Nielson was indirectly the cause of the library massacre for not ordering the kids to follow her and leave.

JayJay wrote:

If I remember well, the staff that came into the Library right before E & D entered wanted to take the kids out of the room.  One male staff said something to the effect ''we have to go, now!'' but Patti had already had them hide under the desks.

It's always freeze or flee, isn't it? And in that case panic sets in and you have only a few seconds to make a decision. It went Patti's way. But considering calling her or others ''cowards'' is out of the question, I think. They did the best they could in those circumstances and are survivors. They have to live with the decisions they made at that time, forever and ever, replaying them in their minds more often than we think of our mothers.

That reminds me of another school shooting I'm well familiar with: Polytechnique, 1989, in Canada. When Marc Lépine entered the room to separate women from men in order to kill the women, the men just went on the other side of the room as Marc Lépine had asked them. After the shooting, many asked the men: ''Why did you not do anything? Why did you not, all guys that you were in that engineering class, jump the shooter?'' The men survivors were so taken by guilt and other feelings that some of them committed suicide as a result of those accusations.

Hi JayJay ,i don't think Carole and Lois were cowards ,i just wondered why they didn't take some kids out of the library and into the RNN sound booth with them. I am not familiar with Marc Lepine. Its sounds interesting and i will look it up on wiki.

It's all right, you just wanted to start a discussion. I know, rik75, you don't think they're actual cowards.

For Marc Lépine and the Polytechnique shooting, you might want to have a look at the school shooting info website documents: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

There's also a movie but, I can't find the full movie subtitled in English on YouTube. Here are some unforgettable scenes with subtitles: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

(I posted those links in the Other shootings section, too).

Wow, that movie clip was eerie as hell. Had a "physco" feeling to it. Poor girls.

Eerie, yes. Visceral. Girls had no chance at all; they were targetted for nothing they had done.

What struck a chord with me, was that the one female who says she's a not feminist, did she live?

She did but took four bullets. Her name is Nathalie Provost and she spoke out later on:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

That was filmed so impressively subtle. The best I've seen of a spree shooter take and very minimal on the music.  It doesn't need it.  The dread is palpable. It feels like you're there experiencing it in his head and also the victims. His blood spreading out and over to the female laying dead next to him. - an ironically poetic touch. Thanks for the share.  Would like to see the whole thing!

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

That was filmed so impressively subtle. The best I've seen of a spree shooter take and very minimal on the music.  It doesn't need it.  The dread is palpable.  It feels like you're there experiencing it in his head and also the victims. His blood spreading out and over to the female laying dead next to him. - an ironically poetic touch. Thanks for the share.  Would like to see the whole thing!

Absolutely. I saw the movie in theater when it first came out and was transfixed. Could not breathe. Everybody in the theater was holding his breath too, you could feel it. When the credits rolled, you could hear a fly. Everybody remained seated. As I looked around, many had tears rolling down their cheeks.

I met the actor who plays the shooter in a relaxed setting. Even then, he has the same intense, purposeful look on his face going about regular business as he does in the movie. What a striking face he has. I congratulated him on a job well-done and an excellent movie.

The movie is available in English somewhere on the Internet or on DVD. It's in French with Spanish subtitles on YouTube.

JayJay wrote:

Absolutely. I saw the movie in theater when it first came out and was transfixed. Could not breathe. Everybody in the theater was holding his breath too, you could feel it. When the credits rolled, you could hear a fly. Everybody remained seated. As I looked around, many had tears rolling down their cheeks.

I met the actor who plays the shooter in a relaxed setting. Even then, he has the same intense, purposeful look on his face going about regular business as he does in the movie. What a striking face he has. I congratulated him on a job well-done and an excellent movie.

The movie is available in English somewhere on the Internet or on DVD. It's in French with Spanish subtitles on YouTube.

This film looks like it should be seen in a movie theater.  I guess I missed out on that experience but yeah, I can only imagine the you could hear a pin drop upon edit credits!  Lucky you getting to meet the actor.  Initially he sort of reminded me of a more sinister looking Toby Macquire.

I would absolutely love to see this movie but Netflix and Amazon doesn't seem to offer it.     Hmm.. maybe should check Torrents.  If anyone knows where I can download/watch it for free that would be super..or perhaps a DVD loan (if you're in the US).   We should have a download or DVD exchange thread on this forum! I have the 13 Families: Life After Columbine DVD and often thought of loaning that to interested parties since I've consumed it enough times.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

JayJay wrote:

Absolutely. I saw the movie in theater when it first came out and was transfixed. Could not breathe. Everybody in the theater was holding his breath too, you could feel it. When the credits rolled, you could hear a fly. Everybody remained seated. As I looked around, many had tears rolling down their cheeks.

I met the actor who plays the shooter in a relaxed setting. Even then, he has the same intense, purposeful look on his face going about regular business as he does in the movie. What a striking face he has. I congratulated him on a job well-done and an excellent movie.

The movie is available in English somewhere on the Internet or on DVD. It's in French with Spanish subtitles on YouTube.

This film looks like it should be seen in a movie theater.  I guess I missed out on that experience but yeah, I can only imagine the you could hear a pin drop upon edit credits!  Lucky you getting to meet the actor.  Initially he sort of reminded me of a more sinister looking Toby Macquire.

I would absolutely love to see this movie but Netflix and Amazon doesn't seem to offer it.     Hmm.. maybe should check Torrents.  If anyone knows where I can download/watch it for free that would be super..or perhaps a DVD loan (if you're in the US).   We should have a download or DVD exchange thread on this forum! I have the 13 Families: Life After Columbine DVD and often thought of loaning that to interested parties since I've consumed it enough times.

I have not seen the 13 families. Whats it like?

Isn't it on youtube?

Moseley wrote:

Isn't it on youtube?

The extended trailer is: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

JayJay wrote:

Absolutely. I saw the movie in theater when it first came out and was transfixed. Could not breathe. Everybody in the theater was holding his breath too, you could feel it. When the credits rolled, you could hear a fly. Everybody remained seated. As I looked around, many had tears rolling down their cheeks.

I met the actor who plays the shooter in a relaxed setting. Even then, he has the same intense, purposeful look on his face going about regular business as he does in the movie. What a striking face he has. I congratulated him on a job well-done and an excellent movie.

The movie is available in English somewhere on the Internet or on DVD. It's in French with Spanish subtitles on YouTube.

This film looks like it should be seen in a movie theater.  I guess I missed out on that experience but yeah, I can only imagine the you could hear a pin drop upon edit credits!  Lucky you getting to meet the actor.  Initially he sort of reminded me of a more sinister looking Toby Macquire.

I would absolutely love to see this movie but Netflix and Amazon doesn't seem to offer it.     Hmm.. maybe should check Torrents.  If anyone knows where I can download/watch it for free that would be super..or perhaps a DVD loan (if you're in the US).   We should have a download or DVD exchange thread on this forum! I have the 13 Families: Life After Columbine DVD and often thought of loaning that to interested parties since I've consumed it enough times.

That's a cool idea. I can see that Amazon.ca has copies of the DVD. I don't think you can download movies from there, though, as they don't offer that possibility. Maybe on Torrents too, yes.

rik75 wrote:

I have not seen the 13 families. Whats it like?

It's one of the newer Columbine documentaries out there and the focus is on the victim's families as well as those that got hurt and how they've resolved the situation over the years.  Decently done.  Kind of good to see the perspective from the other side of the coin rather than getting so caught up in focusing on E & D all the time. ;)

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

rik75 wrote:

I have not seen the 13 families. Whats it like?

It's one of the newer Columbine documentaries out there and the focus is on the victim's families as well as those that got hurt and how they've resolved the situation over the years.  Decently done.  Kind of good to see the perspective from the other side of the coin rather than getting so caught up in focusing on E & D all the time. ;)

Thank you InFiNiNcEX5 , i will watch it.

mattmatthew1337 wrote:

I wouldn't ever say she or anyone at Columbine was a coward, but I would like to say she did not respond appropriately. I mean this in the sense that most of the casualties were caused in the library because everyone in there did not evacuate. Rather than having all the inhabitants run out of the room through the hallway and exit she knew the killers were not in, she decided that having them have tables over their heads was a better alternative.

She can't really be blamed for that, as it was the natural response I suppose for any teacher. Mr.Sanders did the same thing in the cafeteria in the opening stage of the shooting, but he quickly changed his mind and saved every single kid in there by having them run out. If that cafeteria was still packed with kids when Eric and Dylan went down those stairs, there is no doubt they would have continued their massacre as they had in the Library. I would say that Patti Nielson was indirectly the cause of the library massacre for not ordering the kids to follow her and leave.

I have to say your words are very harsh! I understand where you're coming from and I agree that in this case she made the wrong decision but you can't know what would have happened if she had told them all to run. They could have run straight into the line of fire and people today would be saying Nielson should have told them to get down. She did not know where the killers were exactly, she could only guess. At the beginning she didn't even know there were two of them. What if she had sent the kids away from the killer she could hear and sent them straight into the other one? You just can't know.
Also, Nielson was by no means the only one to make this decision. Many teachers had kids hide in the classrooms. The difference? Eric and Dylan didn't go in there to shoot. As for Mr. Sanders, he's a hero, no doubt about it, he saved lives by the dozens but again you can't know what might have happened had he continued to tell people to stay down. Eric and Dylan had ample opportunity to kill dozens of people that day but after the library massacre, they effectively stopped shooting. I'm not saying you're dead wrong, I just think there are so many unknown factors that saying she was indirectly responsible for the library massacre is unnecessarily harsh.