The length of the shooting compared to others.

If you really sit back and think about it, it's kind of mind boggling that Eric and Dylan were in the school for just short of an hour, yet only killed 13 people.

Seung-Hui Cho killed 32 people over the course of 9 minutes. Although there was a short time between the first killing and the main shooting.
Nikolas Cruz killed 17 people in approximately 6 minutes, before fleeing the school.
Adam Lanza killed 26 people in approximately 5 minutes.

Unlike most school shootings, there were two of them, and they had an hour to scour the school. The only difference being the element of surprise so to speak.
This isn't another "why did they wonder the school post", but a realization in hindsight to the extent of deaths they could of caused if they were more vigilant.
Imagine if they spent the whole hour searching the school for kids? There would be a lot more names on that memorial.

We all know they didn't have a well thought out plan b, and started the shooting outside, alerting people to get a head start getting out of the school.
If they just walked in and started shooting, I'd assume more people would of just stayed where they were and tried to hide, taken by surprise.
Especially people feeling up the cafeteria steps which are right next to the library.

I think it's safe to say their lack of a well thought out plan b, terrible bomb making skills, and starting the shooting outside, saved a lot of lives that day.
You could almost call it a blessing in disguise in a weird way.

If I am correct, they spend around 20-30 minutes idly wondering around after the library just shooting at lockers and the bombs. So we can say they killed 13 people in around 30 minutes then spent the other walking around. It's still a really low number compared to others.

In my own opinion, killing just wasn't what they thought it was. It wasn't like Doom. It wasn't fun. The exhilaration ran off after a while and they just never got it back. That's why they stopped. We can assume that the fact plan A failed also lowered their spirits for the day.

Let's not forget all of the other shootings are post Columbine, which was the largest school shooting in America when it happened. 13 was a high number back then. Sadly, today that's low. If they wanted the fame from it, they didn't have to kill more people. Dylan and Eric didn't have to keep killing. To them, 13 people was more than enough to forever haunt the school and get their revenge. No one had ever shot up a school and killed that many people before.

And then other people came along and cited Dylan and Eric as martyrs. Other people came along and wanted a high kill count. Other people came along and just wanted to outdo the last big shooting. It seems for some people that their motive isn't revenge, just getting "famous" from the shooting.

hvernon wrote:

If I am correct, they spend around 20-30 minutes idly wondering around after the library just shooting at lockers and the bombs. So we can say they killed 13 people in around 30 minutes then spent the other walking around. It's still a really low number compared to others.

In my own opinion, killing just wasn't what they thought it was. It wasn't like Doom. It wasn't fun. The exhilaration ran off after a while and they just never got it back. That's why they stopped. We can assume that the fact plan A failed also lowered their spirits for the day.

Let's not forget all of the other shootings are post Columbine, which was the largest school shooting in America when it happened. 13 was a high number back then. Sadly, today that's low. If they wanted the fame from it, they didn't have to kill more people. Dylan and Eric didn't have to keep killing. To them, 13 people was more than enough to forever haunt the school and get their revenge. No one had ever shot up a school and killed that many people before.

And then other people came along and cited Dylan and Eric as martyrs. Other people came along and wanted a high kill count. Other people came along and just wanted to outdo the last big shooting. It seems for some people that their motive isn't revenge, just getting "famous" from the shooting.

Valid points, but regardless if they wondered, they still were in the school for an hour, and if you think about it 13 deaths out of a school of thousands is surprising.
This is just more of a 20/20 hindsight post to contrast the time they had over other shootings of the sort, and how it could of been way worse if they actually planned things out better.
Of course Columbine was the game changer on how police act in school shootings, so I don't expect any shootings to ever last nearly as long as Columbine did.
We will never know why they wondered, maybe their adrenaline wore off, maybe they thought they killed alot more than they did.
I sure as hell wish we knew though.

They probably thought that they had killed far more than 13.

Adzybear wrote:

They probably thought that they had killed far more than 13.

Considering most of their knowledge about killing came from television and video games, I'm willing to bet that they thought nearly every person that got shot died.

QuestionMark wrote:

Adzybear wrote:

They probably thought that they had killed far more than 13.

Considering most of their knowledge about killing came from television and video games, I'm willing to bet that they thought nearly every person that got shot died.

They were kinda ignorant. I cringe every time I watch rampart range. Kinda ironic for dudes who thought they had an evolutionary advantage.

QuestionMark wrote:

Adzybear wrote:

They probably thought that they had killed far more than 13.

Considering most of their knowledge about killing came from television and video games, I'm willing to bet that they thought nearly every person that got shot died.

Definitely that was also a factor.

QuestionMark wrote:

Adzybear wrote:

They probably thought that they had killed far more than 13.

Considering most of their knowledge about killing came from television and video games, I'm willing to bet that they thought nearly every person that got shot died.

I tend to agree with you. I feel they thought most everyone they shot were killed.
Many injured did play dead, so that could of been a factor too.

That they started shooting at all, indeed started it outside when they could have killed so many more by surprising the cafeteria, and they didn't seem to have a plan B, are all reasons why I wonder if that wasn't plan A. Why "ok, bombs failed, let's start shooting outside"? That seems more like they were waiting for the bombs to go off in the cafeteria, else they could have done "ok, bombs failed, let's wreak havoc in the cafeteria."

Certainly one of the big differences between Columbine and other similar crimes is the amount of time they had, and with two shooters. It is pretty intriguing and a blessing of a sort that they never entered any classrooms, especially when Eric said he would do just that in that "NBK.doc".  Then again, they did try to set bombs to door handles and such, and because they started outside, I'm sure no doors were left unlocked. They may well have just sucked at breaking in.

Also, they must have been conscious of the time at some point. It is hard for me to imagine "it just wasn't fun any more" or "they felt remorse" was more important than "Cops could have been around any corner to take them alive, and they had not yet got the shootout with police they wanted." It is only in hindsight that we see the cops never entered - it would be very curious indeed if Eric and Dylan had expected that to happen. Eric told Dylan to "cover him" several times in both the library and the cafeteria.  Even though they could have killed more people by entering a classroom, they may have feared cornering themselves like that. At least, these are other things I consider before I think about "Maybe they were just bored" or "Maybe they preferred shooting lockers and ceilings."

cakeman wrote:

That they started shooting at all, indeed started it outside when they could have killed so many more by surprising the cafeteria, and they didn't seem to have a plan B, are all reasons why I wonder if that wasn't plan A. Why "ok, bombs failed, let's start shooting outside"? That seems more like they were waiting for the bombs to go off in the cafeteria, else they could have done "ok, bombs failed, let's wreak havoc in the cafeteria."

Certainly one of the big differences between Columbine and other similar crimes is the amount of time they had, and with two shooters. It is pretty intriguing and a blessing of a sort that they never entered any classrooms, especially when Eric said he would do just that in that "NBK.doc".  Then again, they did try to set bombs to door handles and such, and because they started outside, I'm sure no doors were left unlocked. They may well have just sucked at breaking in.

Also, they must have been conscious of the time at some point. It is hard for me to imagine "it just wasn't fun any more" or "they felt remorse" was more important than "Cops could have been around any corner to take them alive, and they had not yet got the shootout with police they wanted." It is only in hindsight that we see the cops never entered - it would be very curious indeed if Eric and Dylan had expected that to happen. Eric told Dylan to "cover him" several times in both the library and the cafeteria.  Even though they could have killed more people by entering a classroom, they may have feared cornering themselves like that. At least, these are other things I consider before I think about "Maybe they were just bored" or "Maybe they preferred shooting lockers and ceilings."

Yeah, alot of things they did still don't make sense to me to this day. I think they really overestimated their bomb making skills.
It seems like in their minds, they knew for sure the bombs were going to detonate, which is why they never bothered creating a solid plan B.
Maybe it was the excitement, or the fact they both thought they were on a higher level above everyone else.
Starting the shooting outside gave the students a head start to get out of the school.
With all the planning they did, it's surprising they didn't realize that.
With 2 shooters in a school of thousands of students for almost an hour, it's miraculous that only 13 people were killed.
Alot of things they did that day actually saved lives in the end, which is pretty wild.

The biggest thing that stands out for me is that when it comes to the massacre as a whole is why they walked around wasting their ammo at lockers and detonating bombs when they could have just broken into classrooms and shot at their peers. Not to mention some people said that they made eye contact with Eric and Dylan behind doors, and Eric and Dylan threatened those hiding in the bathrooms, but didn't bother to go in. they only shot people when they came in and after a couple of minutes they stopped and just tried to detonate bombs, and shoot aimlessly until they decided to end it. Maybe and most probably if they were roaming around and someone got in their way after they finished in the library, and before and after the cafeteria bomb detonation attempts they would attack them due to being in the way but who knows. It's like they just got bored and decided to say, "Let's finish this," and head back to the library and kill themselves.

ValiantSoldier wrote:

The biggest thing that stands out for me is that when it comes to the massacre as a whole is why they walked around wasting their ammo at lockers and detonating bombs when they could have just broken into classrooms and shot at their peers. Not to mention some people said that they made eye contact with Eric and Dylan behind doors, and Eric and Dylan threatened those hiding in the bathrooms, but didn't bother to go in. they only shot people when they came in and after a couple of minutes they stopped and just tried to detonate bombs, and shoot aimlessly until they decided to end it. Maybe and most probably if they were roaming around and someone got in their way after they finished in the library, and before and after the cafeteria bomb detonation attempts they would attack them due to being in the way but who knows. It's like they just got bored and decided to say, "Let's finish this," and head back to the library and kill themselves.

That is one of the biggest mystery's about the shooting.
Unfortunately, we will never know why they decided to wonder the school and not break into rooms to kill more people, but I have a few logical assumptions.
I tend to think it could of been a mixture of three things. Their initial adrenaline wearing off, the fact that they didn't expect the shooting to last that long, and that they thought they killed alot more than 13 people.
Dylan predicted the massacre would last about 15 minutes, so it must of been a shocker to them when no police entered the building.
They didn't plan on being alive for a whole hour, so I think they just improvised and walked around the school not knowing what to do for the most part.
Alot of people played dead in the library, and a decent amount of people who were shot survived.
In the heat of the moment they could of thought all the wounded and playing dead were in fact killed, making it seem to them that they killed twice as many people.
Therefore, in their minds they might of been satisfied with their kill count, and wanted to spend their remaining time on destroying the school as much as they could.

I'm guessing that a major reason for why their kill count was so low compared to the amount of time had to do with them sawing off their shotguns (stupid in retrospect). They also mainly relied on buckshot instead of hollow point slugs. Charles Whitman was smart enough to partially saw off his shotgun instead of going all the way, not to mention his far superior physique (makes it way easier to handle the large amount of recoil produced by a sawed-off 12 gauge).

NSAhoneypot wrote:

I'm guessing that a major reason for why their kill count was so low compared to the amount of time had to do with them sawing off their shotguns (stupid in retrospect). They also mainly relied on buckshot instead of hollow point slugs. Charles Whitman was smart enough to partially saw off his shotgun instead of going all the way, not to mention his far superior physique (makes it way easier to handle the large amount of recoil produced by a sawed-off 12 gauge).

Sawing off a shotgun barrel widens the blast and in some cases increases the power of the blast.
It makes the recoil extreme, and harder to control though, like you said.
It's perfect for up-close shots of non moving targets, basically meant for killing people.
Even with crappy ammo, a close up shot from a sawed off will do major damage, as we all can see from Eric's head.
I feel like they used the shotguns for up close and personal shots, and their other weapons for more accurate shots from further away.
I guess it was smart of them to each get a weapon with different tactile advantages.

slippy123 wrote:

NSAhoneypot wrote:

I'm guessing that a major reason for why their kill count was so low compared to the amount of time had to do with them sawing off their shotguns (stupid in retrospect). They also mainly relied on buckshot instead of hollow point slugs. Charles Whitman was smart enough to partially saw off his shotgun instead of going all the way, not to mention his far superior physique (makes it way easier to handle the large amount of recoil produced by a sawed-off 12 gauge).

Sawing off a shotgun barrel widens the blast and in some cases increases the power of the blast.
It makes the recoil extreme, and harder to control though, like you said.
It's perfect for up-close shots of non moving targets, basically meant for killing people.
Even with crappy ammo, a close up shot from a sawed off will do major damage, as we all can see from Eric's head.
I feel like they used the shotguns for up close and personal shots, and their other weapons for more accurate shots from further away.
I guess it was smart of them to each get a weapon with different tactile advantages.

I also think another reason that they sawed off their shotguns was more for concealment purposes, it's probably easier to hide a sawn-off shotgun in their bedrooms than a normal length shotgun.

UncontinuedProcess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

NSAhoneypot wrote:

I'm guessing that a major reason for why their kill count was so low compared to the amount of time had to do with them sawing off their shotguns (stupid in retrospect). They also mainly relied on buckshot instead of hollow point slugs. Charles Whitman was smart enough to partially saw off his shotgun instead of going all the way, not to mention his far superior physique (makes it way easier to handle the large amount of recoil produced by a sawed-off 12 gauge).

Sawing off a shotgun barrel widens the blast and in some cases increases the power of the blast.
It makes the recoil extreme, and harder to control though, like you said.
It's perfect for up-close shots of non moving targets, basically meant for killing people.
Even with crappy ammo, a close up shot from a sawed off will do major damage, as we all can see from Eric's head.
I feel like they used the shotguns for up close and personal shots, and their other weapons for more accurate shots from further away.
I guess it was smart of them to each get a weapon with different tactile advantages.

I also think another reason that they sawed off their shotguns was more for concealment purposes, it's probably easier to hide a sawn-off shotgun in their bedrooms than a normal length shotgun.

Much easier yes, standard shotgun barrels are pretty long. Also they did seem to have a thing for action movies. Eric breaking his nose is an indicator of them not understanding the recoil of a sawed off. Movies make wielding and controlling a sawed off shotgun soooo much easier than it really is. The recoil on them is horrible.

Kev7382 wrote:

UncontinuedProcess wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

NSAhoneypot wrote:

I'm guessing that a major reason for why their kill count was so low compared to the amount of time had to do with them sawing off their shotguns (stupid in retrospect). They also mainly relied on buckshot instead of hollow point slugs. Charles Whitman was smart enough to partially saw off his shotgun instead of going all the way, not to mention his far superior physique (makes it way easier to handle the large amount of recoil produced by a sawed-off 12 gauge).

Sawing off a shotgun barrel widens the blast and in some cases increases the power of the blast.
It makes the recoil extreme, and harder to control though, like you said.
It's perfect for up-close shots of non moving targets, basically meant for killing people.
Even with crappy ammo, a close up shot from a sawed off will do major damage, as we all can see from Eric's head.
I feel like they used the shotguns for up close and personal shots, and their other weapons for more accurate shots from further away.
I guess it was smart of them to each get a weapon with different tactile advantages.

I also think another reason that they sawed off their shotguns was more for concealment purposes, it's probably easier to hide a sawn-off shotgun in their bedrooms than a normal length shotgun.

Much easier yes, standard shotgun barrels are pretty long.  Also they did seem to have a thing for action movies.  Eric breaking his nose is an indicator of them not understanding the recoil of a sawed off.  Movies make wielding and controlling a sawed off shotgun soooo much easier than it really is.  The recoil on them is horrible.

Very possible. I also just remembered there was a sawed off shotgun in doom.
I'm pretty sure he talked about copying the guns from doom, but I'm not 100% positive as it's been awhile since I've read his journals.

slippy123 wrote:

I also just remembered there was a sawed off shotgun in doom.
I'm pretty sure he talked about copying the guns from doom, but I'm not 100% positive as it's been awhile since I've read his journals.

He mentioned either in TBT or his journal that his shotgun was "straight out of Doom".

I am 100% positive. For one, just ask why they had two guns, and how many shootings involve people (not just carrying but) using two guns at a time. It was the shotgun for power and the closest thing they could get to a chain gun for speed depending on the 'monsters' they would face like an FPS.   The attempt to make napalm was very probably the closest thing they could make to a rocket launcher. In the Basement Tapes Eric says that's "the suicide plan", and killing yourself with the rocket launcher is probably the quickest way to go in Doom, and of course Eric went much quicker than Dylan with the way he shot himself.

The shotgun in original Doom is a pump action shotgun, just like Eric's which was indeed "straight out of Doom" and which he named Arlene after the character in the Doom novels. Doom II has the super shotgun which is a sawed off, double barrel shotgun - like Dylan's.

In Hitmen for Hire, Eric's journals, etc he never shuts up about an AB-10 machine pistol, which he gets from the Doom novels. Arlene uses an AB-10 regularly in them. An AB-10 is just a version of the TEC-9, Dylan's other weapon.

Eric's carbine is the only one that takes a bit of thought. I don't think a carbine rifle is mentioned in the Doom novels, and you never use one in Doom. However, consider the monsters in Doom. The first two are former human and shotgun guy. Former human has some kind of rifle which gives you ammunition for the chain gun when you kill him. So, a rifle that gives you the same ammunition as a TEC-9, a 9mm rifle - there ya go. Also, Doomguy viewed in third person has some kind of rifle, though he never uses it. Even the light shirt and the dark shirt between Eric and Dylan could well be like former human and shotgun guy. Also the hip ammo pouches like the cut-away scene in Ultimate Doom, and Eric's bandolier thing like Duke Nukem, and Eric's berserk.

Most will tell you Eric's carbine was the only decent gun between them. Maybe, I would have to defer to someone else to know about that, but I don't think they knew that. The super shotgun is better than the pump action shotgun in the game, and Eric was obviously fond of the idea of an AB-10. I think Dylan has what they thought were the better weapons. I think that says something about who came up with the massacre plot, as if it wasn't already known that Dylan mentions the idea first.

It's also Dylan who heads down the stairs when they are outside, and he only takes 3 shots with the TEC-9 yet wastes his two shotgun shots on people already shot. I think that's because the bombs were supposed to go off, then he was supposed to head down the stairs, and fire with the TEC-9 at the exits - what they thought was their best 'chaingun'.

slippy123 wrote:

ValiantSoldier wrote:

The biggest thing that stands out for me is that when it comes to the massacre as a whole is why they walked around wasting their ammo at lockers and detonating bombs when they could have just broken into classrooms and shot at their peers. Not to mention some people said that they made eye contact with Eric and Dylan behind doors, and Eric and Dylan threatened those hiding in the bathrooms, but didn't bother to go in. they only shot people when they came in and after a couple of minutes they stopped and just tried to detonate bombs, and shoot aimlessly until they decided to end it. Maybe and most probably if they were roaming around and someone got in their way after they finished in the library, and before and after the cafeteria bomb detonation attempts they would attack them due to being in the way but who knows. It's like they just got bored and decided to say, "Let's finish this," and head back to the library and kill themselves.

That is one of the biggest mystery's about the shooting.
Unfortunately, we will never know why they decided to wonder the school and not break into rooms to kill more people, but I have a few logical assumptions.
I tend to think it could of been a mixture of three things. Their initial adrenaline wearing off, the fact that they didn't expect the shooting to last that long, and that they thought they killed alot more than 13 people.
Dylan predicted the massacre would last about 15 minutes, so it must of been a shocker to them when no police entered the building.
They didn't plan on being alive for a whole hour, so I think they just improvised and walked around the school not knowing what to do for the most part.
Alot of people played dead in the library, and a decent amount of people who were shot survived.
In the heat of the moment they could of thought all the wounded and playing dead were in fact killed, making it seem to them that they killed twice as many people.
Therefore, in their minds they might of been satisfied with their kill count, and wanted to spend their remaining time on destroying the school as much as they could.

I think this misses the biggest reason for wandering around and for being bored with shooting students - wanting to shoot police, and not wanting to be captured by police. Too often people act like because the cops didn't enter, that Eric and Dylan knew they wouldn't enter. But there's no way. Wouldn't you be anxious as a teenage murderer in the library that cops were somewhere in the building looking for you?

Also "Dylan predicted the massacre would last about 15 minutes" Don't think so. He said it would be 15 minutes waiting to charge through the school. Nowhere does he say the massacre will last 15 minutes or even imply it. I think they meant 15 minutes of shooting people outside fleeing the exits until people would turn around and run up the cafeteria stairs, and then they would enter the school and cut off their escape. I think that's when they expected to have less ammo and use their knives, which I think is why Dylan is talking about it. When do you think they were supposed to use their knives? I think that's why Dylan is grinning to see people run up the cafeteria stairs, reporting to Eric that it's time to enter, which they did.

Also, consider that the car bombs were set to explode at noon. How do you justify that? Here's how I do it. They start shooting at a bit before 11:20. The "15 minutes" Dylan mentions before people have turned around: enter to cut off their escape at 11:35. Same thing happens again, people realize they need to turn around. Might even have estimated this would take longer a second time to realize they now won't get shot if they run into the parking lot. But let's say another 15 minutes: 11:50, ten minutes until the car bombs cut off their escape.

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ValiantSoldier wrote:

The biggest thing that stands out for me is that when it comes to the massacre as a whole is why they walked around wasting their ammo at lockers and detonating bombs when they could have just broken into classrooms and shot at their peers. Not to mention some people said that they made eye contact with Eric and Dylan behind doors, and Eric and Dylan threatened those hiding in the bathrooms, but didn't bother to go in. they only shot people when they came in and after a couple of minutes they stopped and just tried to detonate bombs, and shoot aimlessly until they decided to end it. Maybe and most probably if they were roaming around and someone got in their way after they finished in the library, and before and after the cafeteria bomb detonation attempts they would attack them due to being in the way but who knows. It's like they just got bored and decided to say, "Let's finish this," and head back to the library and kill themselves.

That is one of the biggest mystery's about the shooting.
Unfortunately, we will never know why they decided to wonder the school and not break into rooms to kill more people, but I have a few logical assumptions.
I tend to think it could of been a mixture of three things. Their initial adrenaline wearing off, the fact that they didn't expect the shooting to last that long, and that they thought they killed alot more than 13 people.
Dylan predicted the massacre would last about 15 minutes, so it must of been a shocker to them when no police entered the building.
They didn't plan on being alive for a whole hour, so I think they just improvised and walked around the school not knowing what to do for the most part.
Alot of people played dead in the library, and a decent amount of people who were shot survived.
In the heat of the moment they could of thought all the wounded and playing dead were in fact killed, making it seem to them that they killed twice as many people.
Therefore, in their minds they might of been satisfied with their kill count, and wanted to spend their remaining time on destroying the school as much as they could.

I think this misses the biggest reason for wandering around and for being bored with shooting students - wanting to shoot police, and not wanting to be captured by police. Too often people act like because the cops didn't enter, that Eric and Dylan knew they wouldn't enter. But there's no way. Wouldn't you be anxious as a teenage murderer in the library that cops were somewhere in the building looking for you?

Also "Dylan predicted the massacre would last about 15 minutes" Don't think so. He said it would be 15 minutes waiting to charge through the school. Nowhere does he say the massacre will last 15 minutes or even imply it. I think they meant 15 minutes of shooting people outside fleeing the exits until people would turn around and run up the cafeteria stairs, and then they would enter the school and cut off their escape. I think that's when they expected to have less ammo and use their knives, which I think is why Dylan is talking about it. When do you think they were supposed to use their knives? I think that's why Dylan is grinning to see people run up the cafeteria stairs, reporting to Eric that it's time to enter, which they did.

Also, consider that the car bombs were set to explode at noon. How do you justify that? Here's how I do it. They start shooting at a bit before 11:20. The "15 minutes" Dylan mentions before people have turned around: enter to cut off their escape at 11:35. Same thing happens again, people realize they need to turn around. Might even have estimated this would take longer a second time to realize they now won't get shot if they run into the parking lot. But let's say another 15 minutes: 11:50, ten minutes until the car bombs cut off their escape.

I always thought the 15 minutes was the time between when the bombs were planted, they were geared up and ready and When they expected the bombs to go off . He would be nervous for those 15 or so minutes. Waiting in anticipation for the bombs and to begin the massacre.

That’s another thing that confuses me he’s the one that wrote have fun on his to do list , he’s the one that talked about perfecting his kill gear look . Yet people think he wasn’t into it

I would have to go back and look at Dylan’s schedule that he wrote. Because I think that there is some sort of “chill time” and then bombs going off

Yeah I think you're right they were going to sit by their cars and wait for the bombs to detonate if I remember right.

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ValiantSoldier wrote:

The biggest thing that stands out for me is that when it comes to the massacre as a whole is why they walked around wasting their ammo at lockers and detonating bombs when they could have just broken into classrooms and shot at their peers. Not to mention some people said that they made eye contact with Eric and Dylan behind doors, and Eric and Dylan threatened those hiding in the bathrooms, but didn't bother to go in. they only shot people when they came in and after a couple of minutes they stopped and just tried to detonate bombs, and shoot aimlessly until they decided to end it. Maybe and most probably if they were roaming around and someone got in their way after they finished in the library, and before and after the cafeteria bomb detonation attempts they would attack them due to being in the way but who knows. It's like they just got bored and decided to say, "Let's finish this," and head back to the library and kill themselves.

That is one of the biggest mystery's about the shooting.
Unfortunately, we will never know why they decided to wonder the school and not break into rooms to kill more people, but I have a few logical assumptions.
I tend to think it could of been a mixture of three things. Their initial adrenaline wearing off, the fact that they didn't expect the shooting to last that long, and that they thought they killed alot more than 13 people.
Dylan predicted the massacre would last about 15 minutes, so it must of been a shocker to them when no police entered the building.
They didn't plan on being alive for a whole hour, so I think they just improvised and walked around the school not knowing what to do for the most part.
Alot of people played dead in the library, and a decent amount of people who were shot survived.
In the heat of the moment they could of thought all the wounded and playing dead were in fact killed, making it seem to them that they killed twice as many people.
Therefore, in their minds they might of been satisfied with their kill count, and wanted to spend their remaining time on destroying the school as much as they could.

I think this misses the biggest reason for wandering around and for being bored with shooting students - wanting to shoot police, and not wanting to be captured by police. Too often people act like because the cops didn't enter, that Eric and Dylan knew they wouldn't enter. But there's no way. Wouldn't you be anxious as a teenage murderer in the library that cops were somewhere in the building looking for you?

Also "Dylan predicted the massacre would last about 15 minutes" Don't think so. He said it would be 15 minutes waiting to charge through the school. Nowhere does he say the massacre will last 15 minutes or even imply it. I think they meant 15 minutes of shooting people outside fleeing the exits until people would turn around and run up the cafeteria stairs, and then they would enter the school and cut off their escape. I think that's when they expected to have less ammo and use their knives, which I think is why Dylan is talking about it. When do you think they were supposed to use their knives? I think that's why Dylan is grinning to see people run up the cafeteria stairs, reporting to Eric that it's time to enter, which they did.

Also, consider that the car bombs were set to explode at noon. How do you justify that? Here's how I do it. They start shooting at a bit before 11:20. The "15 minutes" Dylan mentions before people have turned around: enter to cut off their escape at 11:35. Same thing happens again, people realize they need to turn around. Might even have estimated this would take longer a second time to realize they now won't get shot if they run into the parking lot. But let's say another 15 minutes: 11:50, ten minutes until the car bombs cut off their escape.

I don't think most people on here say that they knew police weren't going to enter the building, in fact it's quite the opposite.
They expected police to enter eventually, and were fully prepared to die in a police shootout.
It's very abnormal for school shooters to just wonder through the school for that long, and I don't think for one second that wondering was part of the plan.
I believe a big reason why they wondered was because they were so prepared for a police shootout that when they didn't enter, they literally didn't know what to do.
All they could do was to try and destroy as much of the school as they could, thus trying to detonate the bombs, and throwing pipe bombs at random places.

As far as I know, there was never 15 minutes from when they planted the bombs to when they expected them to go off.
They planted the bombs at 11:09, for 11:17, making that 8 minutes.
So are you saying that they expected to stand outside shooting students for 15 minutes after the bombs went off when they knew there was an armed officer on campus and hella police would of been on the scene?
Dylan's statement is confusing because it isn't specific. Does he mean "waiting to charge" the school as in walk up to students running out, or does he mean actually going inside the school. We don't 100% know.
The reason I assumed he was talking about the massacre's length, is because they were going to go through with it no matter what. Even if the bombs didn't go off, NBK was going to happen.
So I just don't see why the bombs would be the most nerve wracking part, when in the end they were going to kill people regardless.
But it's entirely possible he was talking about the bombs too.

The knives were just for show. I doubt they ever planned on using them, and aside from cracking a joke about knifing people, from all accounts they never even pulled them from their sheaths.
The car bombs were specifically set to explode later in in the day to try and kill police who were rummaging through their cars.

In my opinion, if they really set the car bombs for noon, that kind of shows they expected the massacre to be over fairly fast.
Police would of had to clear the school, identify their bodies, find their cars since they weren't in their own spots, all before or around noon in order for the bombs to detonate when police were entering their cars.
Let's not forget that they meticulously planned everything down to the exact minute.

cakeman wrote:

Eric's carbine is the only one that takes a bit of thought. I don't think a carbine rifle is mentioned in the Doom novels, and you never use one in Doom. However, consider the monsters in Doom. The first two are former human and shotgun guy. Former human has some kind of rifle which gives you ammunition for the chain gun when you kill him. So, a rifle that gives you the same ammunition as a TEC-9, a 9mm rifle - there ya go. Also, Doomguy viewed in third person has some kind of rifle, though he never uses it.

Of course there could be a more practical reason - Eric didn't really know where to buy a gun like an assault rifle, so he chose the carbine, a weapon that was easy to handle and had light recoil thanks to the 9mm caliber.

cakeman wrote:

I think this misses the biggest reason for wandering around and for being bored with shooting students - wanting to shoot police, and not wanting to be captured by police. Too often people act like because the cops didn't enter, that Eric and Dylan knew they wouldn't enter. But there's no way. Wouldn't you be anxious as a teenage murderer in the library that cops were somewhere in the building looking for you?

Do you think it's possible that their behavior of shooting at lockers and walls might've been them trying to draw out the police that they suspected were in the building? It's a thought that recently came to my mind.

slippy123 wrote:

cakeman wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

ValiantSoldier wrote:

The biggest thing that stands out for me is that when it comes to the massacre as a whole is why they walked around wasting their ammo at lockers and detonating bombs when they could have just broken into classrooms and shot at their peers. Not to mention some people said that they made eye contact with Eric and Dylan behind doors, and Eric and Dylan threatened those hiding in the bathrooms, but didn't bother to go in. they only shot people when they came in and after a couple of minutes they stopped and just tried to detonate bombs, and shoot aimlessly until they decided to end it. Maybe and most probably if they were roaming around and someone got in their way after they finished in the library, and before and after the cafeteria bomb detonation attempts they would attack them due to being in the way but who knows. It's like they just got bored and decided to say, "Let's finish this," and head back to the library and kill themselves.

That is one of the biggest mystery's about the shooting.
Unfortunately, we will never know why they decided to wonder the school and not break into rooms to kill more people, but I have a few logical assumptions.
I tend to think it could of been a mixture of three things. Their initial adrenaline wearing off, the fact that they didn't expect the shooting to last that long, and that they thought they killed alot more than 13 people.
Dylan predicted the massacre would last about 15 minutes, so it must of been a shocker to them when no police entered the building.
They didn't plan on being alive for a whole hour, so I think they just improvised and walked around the school not knowing what to do for the most part.
Alot of people played dead in the library, and a decent amount of people who were shot survived.
In the heat of the moment they could of thought all the wounded and playing dead were in fact killed, making it seem to them that they killed twice as many people.
Therefore, in their minds they might of been satisfied with their kill count, and wanted to spend their remaining time on destroying the school as much as they could.

I think this misses the biggest reason for wandering around and for being bored with shooting students - wanting to shoot police, and not wanting to be captured by police. Too often people act like because the cops didn't enter, that Eric and Dylan knew they wouldn't enter. But there's no way. Wouldn't you be anxious as a teenage murderer in the library that cops were somewhere in the building looking for you?

Also "Dylan predicted the massacre would last about 15 minutes" Don't think so. He said it would be 15 minutes waiting to charge through the school. Nowhere does he say the massacre will last 15 minutes or even imply it. I think they meant 15 minutes of shooting people outside fleeing the exits until people would turn around and run up the cafeteria stairs, and then they would enter the school and cut off their escape. I think that's when they expected to have less ammo and use their knives, which I think is why Dylan is talking about it. When do you think they were supposed to use their knives? I think that's why Dylan is grinning to see people run up the cafeteria stairs, reporting to Eric that it's time to enter, which they did.

Also, consider that the car bombs were set to explode at noon. How do you justify that? Here's how I do it. They start shooting at a bit before 11:20. The "15 minutes" Dylan mentions before people have turned around: enter to cut off their escape at 11:35. Same thing happens again, people realize they need to turn around. Might even have estimated this would take longer a second time to realize they now won't get shot if they run into the parking lot. But let's say another 15 minutes: 11:50, ten minutes until the car bombs cut off their escape.

I don't think most people on here say that they knew police weren't going to enter the building, in fact it's quite the opposite.
They expected police to enter eventually, and were fully prepared to die in a police shootout.
It's very abnormal for school shooters to just wonder through the school for that long, and I don't think for one second that wondering was part of the plan.
I believe a big reason why they wondered was because they were so prepared for a police shootout that when they didn't enter, they literally didn't know what to do.
All they could do was to try and destroy as much of the school as they could, thus trying to detonate the bombs, and throwing pipe bombs at random places.

As far as I know, there was never 15 minutes from when they planted the bombs to when they expected them to go off.
They planted the bombs at 11:09, for 11:17, making that 8 minutes.
So are you saying that they expected to stand outside shooting students for 15 minutes after the bombs went off when they knew there was an armed officer on campus and hella police would of been on the scene?
Dylan's statement is confusing because it isn't specific. Does he mean "waiting to charge" the school as in walk up to students running out, or does he mean actually going inside the school. We don't 100% know.
The reason I assumed he was talking about the massacre's length, is because they were going to go through with it no matter what. Even if the bombs didn't go off, NBK was going to happen.
So I just don't see why the bombs would be the most nerve wracking part, when in the end they were going to kill people regardless.
But it's entirely possible he was talking about the bombs too.

The knives were just for show. I doubt they ever planned on using them, and aside from cracking a joke about knifing people, from all accounts they never even pulled them from their sheaths.
The car bombs were specifically set to explode later in in the day to try and kill police who were rummaging through their cars.

In my opinion, if they really set the car bombs for noon, that kind of shows they expected the massacre to be over fairly fast.
Police would of had to clear the school, identify their bodies, find their cars since they weren't in their own spots, all before or around noon in order for the bombs to detonate when police were entering their cars.
Let's not forget that they meticulously planned everything down to the exact minute.

"I believe a big reason why they wondered was because they were so prepared for a police shootout that when they didn't enter, they literally didn't know what to do.

All they could do was to try and destroy as much of the school as they could, thus trying to detonate the bombs, and throwing pipe bombs at random places."

This is one of those where I'm nodding my head and then start shaking my head. "I believe a big reason why they wondered was because they were so prepared for a police shootout that when they didn't enter, they literally didn't know what to do." All you said before  including this seems very plausible.  I'm not saying wandering was part of the plan - I don't think that either. Hell, it's doubtful the library massacre was part of the plan.

Then "All they could do was to try and destroy as much of the school as they could, thus trying to detonate the bombs, and throwing pipe bombs at random places." Here I start shaking my head. How about "They were so prepared for a police shootout that when they didn't enter, they didn't know what to do - and wanted to kill cops/die by cop, so they went looking for them?"  It seems to me those who say it was remorse or to have fun shooting lockers are ignoring the cops entirely, and it seems to me even here you acknowledge the cops but then your inference ignores them entirely. "The cops didn't enter the library, therefore all they could do was try and destroy as much of the school as they could" makes no sense to me. They didn't know they had not entered elsewhere, and "they got bored killing students, so they started shooting lockers" doesn't make much sense when compared with "they got bored killing students, they wanted to kill cops." That's going "up a level", and that's what they said they wanted to do, and what they tried to do from the library.

Also it doesn't seem to me like they necessarily "tried to destroy as much of the school as they could". It seems to me like they tried to get the bombs to explode to kill themselves and take out the library, and they turned on gas in one science room. That was hoping it would cause a fire and be a replacement for plan A, sure. But when that didn't work, they shot at lockers and the ceiling and tossed pipe bombs at walls and stuff as an after-thought while looking for cops, it seems to me. They only ignited a single gas can, what we see on the CCTV.  They had more. The cafeteria bombs in the kitchen had gas cans for instance - they didn't light those. I guess one could argue they tried and it failed. They also had several unused crickets on them when they died. Also not like they went around smashing every window, as far as I am aware.

"They planted the bombs at 11:09" No time line of which I'm aware has them planting the bombs at 11:09.  That's going off what Dylan wrote down, and that also has him writing down that the car bombs would go off at 11:18, just a minute after the cafeteria bombs. At least one was set to noon, so they didn't stick to those plans. It's not wise to go by that. I'll note those plans also says "go to outside hill, wait. When first bombs go off attack". I think they stuck to that much, i. e. waiting in the parking lot for the bombs to go off is a myth and going to the stairs was "plan A"

If you believe the "tape change" story, the bombs were planted at 11:14, but that doesn't make much sense with how close they are cutting it. I'd say the same for 11:09. If it was the after-prom party, it was days before, but that doesn't make much sense, when the bags are seen on their Basement Tapes "goodbye" and they could say catch on fire while they were sleeping and have cops show up and arrest them. If you believe it's them on the CVA video on youtube, it's 10:58-11:00 that they planted the bombs. I'm not positive it's them, but that's the most plausible. Those are the choices.

"So are you saying that they expected to stand outside shooting students for 15 minutes after the bombs went off when they knew there was an armed officer on campus and hella police would of been on the scene". Yeah, I am. Do you not think if the bombs went off, they would have been outside gunning at people fleeing for a lot longer? That seems to me self evident. Plus they had diversions. As for the cops once they were on scene, I think they took their chances with that. All the more reason to be shaking like a leaf, and they were ready to die by cop anyway. There were what, six of them that showed up, and only one they would have known for sure they had to deal with? At least Eric took his chances with that even without the bombs, getting in a shootout. If Eric had hit him, I'm sure they would have stayed outside for longer. More importantly they outgunned the cops. The "armed officer" had a handgun, pressing "2" in Doom when they could press "3" or "4".

"Dylan's statement is confusing because it isn't specific. Does he mean "waiting to charge" the school as in walk up to students running out, or does he mean actually going inside the school." I guess, I don't find it confusing. I take "charge the school" to mean "charge through the school", through the west entrance, when people eventually turn around, since that's what they did. I doubt it means charge the cafeteria while it's on fire and full of corpses, though I won't say it's impossible.

Regardless, "fifteen minutes until we charge the school" on either interpretation does not anywhere imply "fifteen minutes until we are dead and the massacre is over", does it? And you haven't offered why they are charging the school. I at least have that: to cut off those who turned around. That along with elevation and being shielded from the bomb blast also explains why the stairs are a superior spot to wait.

" Even if the bombs didn't go off, NBK was going to happen. " Well I don't think they thought that, and even those who think that's what happened that day (I don't), they don't think they had much of a plan B going in. They were confident the bombs would work. Indeed, their actions suggest even if the timers failed, they were confident they could make them explode with tossed bombs or bullets.

"So I just don't see why the bombs would be the most nerve wracking part" Well that wasn't my contention. My contention was the nerve wracking part was while shooting, they would also be waiting to charge through the school to stab people. If it was just for show, why are they talking about peoples head being on their knives in the basement tapes, for instance. You don't need to attach an unwieldy knife to your leg just to talk about stabbing people in the library either.

I've never heard anybody say they planned for the bombs to get police while the police were sitting in their cars. It was just meant for people in the parking lot, either police/first responders/media/etc, fleeing students, or both. Each car bomb was two propane tanks with several cans of gas - twice as big as the cafeteria bombs and more than twice the gas. Not just for people inside.

"Let's not forget that they meticulously planned everything down to the exact minute." Let's do, because they weren't evil geniuses and not even the library massacre was planned, nor are any of their timelines minute by minute, and they obviously changed plans several times.

QuestionMark wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Eric's carbine is the only one that takes a bit of thought. I don't think a carbine rifle is mentioned in the Doom novels, and you never use one in Doom. However, consider the monsters in Doom. The first two are former human and shotgun guy. Former human has some kind of rifle which gives you ammunition for the chain gun when you kill him. So, a rifle that gives you the same ammunition as a TEC-9, a 9mm rifle - there ya go. Also, Doomguy viewed in third person has some kind of rifle, though he never uses it.

Of course there could be a more practical reason - Eric didn't really know where to buy a gun like an assault rifle, so he chose the carbine, a weapon that was easy to handle and had light recoil thanks to the 9mm caliber.

cakeman wrote:

I think this misses the biggest reason for wandering around and for being bored with shooting students - wanting to shoot police, and not wanting to be captured by police. Too often people act like because the cops didn't enter, that Eric and Dylan knew they wouldn't enter. But there's no way. Wouldn't you be anxious as a teenage murderer in the library that cops were somewhere in the building looking for you?

Do you think it's possible that their behavior of shooting at lockers and walls might've been them trying to draw out the police that they suspected were in the building? It's a thought that recently came to my mind.

Yeah, literal 100% certainty is an exaggeration, but I'm as confident as I am about anything in the massacre that all 4 guns were because they were playing Doom IRL. I also confess I know dick about guns. And you're right about the carbine by itself, but not when considered with the other 3 guns and everything else. That  still doesn't explain why 2 guns including a shotgun operated at the same time like an FPS, say.

Possibly. Without having a great knowledge of the layout of the school, I think they were looking for cops one way or another, either in the halls or checking all the exits. I think they shot a lot at e. g. the ceiling though, which I don't think is drawing anybody out. I think it's more "when we reach the end of this hallway the cops might be there, let's go in guns blazing into the ceiling", or just having fun and being intimidating while looking.

Kev7382 wrote:

Yeah I think you're right they were going to sit by their cars and wait for the bombs to detonate if I remember right.

That's said often, in most official sources. They say "plan A" was waiting by their cars for the bombs to go off, and when they didn't they went to the stairs and began shooting which was "plan B". I'm probably a broken record at this point, but I don't buy it.

In Tim Krabbe's book, often a favorite among internet sleuths, he doesn't buy it either. No witness says they waited by their cars, and several speak of them waiting at the top of the stairs. Cullen has a bizarre story seemingly made-up whole-cloth of Klebold getting spooked by the bombs failing and retreating to his car, and Eric coaxing him back up the stairs.

I think it's ultimately a result of the contradiction between two different plans they wrote down. Both apparently were written by Dylan.

In Dylan's notebook, we have:
Walk in, set bombs at 11:09, for 11:17

Leave, set car bombs.

Drive to Clemete Park [sic]. Gear up.

Get back by 11:15

Park cars. set car bombs for 11:18

get out, go to outside hill, wait.

When first bombs go off, attack.

have fun!

In Eric's day planner, we have:
5:00     Get-up
6:00     meet at KS                  
7:00     go to Rebs house
7:15     he leaves to fill propane
          I leave to fill gas
8:30     Meet back at his house
9:00     made d. bag set up car  
9:30     practice gearups  
           Chill …  
10:30   set up 4 things  
11:       go to school  
11:10   set up duffel bags  
11:12   wait near cars, gear up
11:16   HAHAHA

Maybe because it was more thorough and written in Eric's day planner, the cops assumed the second one was written later and better reflects the plans they used. However, it seems neither was stuck to. They say the bombs were set at 11:17, so that changed from the day-planner plans. The car bombs were apparently set for noon - or at least one picture of the clock from a car bomb seems to be set for noon, and watching them explode is the best excuse for them returning to the library around noon. So, the 11:18 setting for the car bombs changed from Dylan's notebook. Indeed, if their plan was to shoot from the cars, setting the car bombs to explode a minute after the cafeteria bombs is absurd.

Regardless, I think there are several reasons they chose the stairs. If they were waiting in the parking lot, the fireball and glass and so forth could well have hit them, while they were shielded from that standing on the stairs. If people turned around - which they must have known would happen eventually, they would have nobody left to shoot out in the parking lot. I don't think they'd charge into the cafeteria after them when the cafeteria was exploding or had just exploded. On the stairs, they could go either direction the people went. Then of course the stairs had elevation to shoot down at people, and the parking lot didn't.

If you accept that, then the question becomes was it "Plan A" to shoot people from the stairs when the bombs went off, and "Plan B" to shoot people from the stairs anyway when the bombs failed, or does the lie of shooting from the parking lot show this whole "Plan B" stuff is nonsense? I lean towards the latter. Even people who say it's the former, and even people who accept the official story, often curiously say they had no Plan B and were confident the bombs would go off. In either scenario with a "Plan B" I really doubt fantasizing about your 'masterpiece' for a year and then moving on from the bombs exploding in two minutes, even with timing mechanisms.

Also, I really don't see any reason to start shooting if they didn't think the bombs had exploded or were about to do so. I guess there's a chance Kip Kinkel or something had them scared of getting jumped, but with two shooters I think they could have done a lot of damage if they started shooting in the cafeteria rather than the stairs - unless they thought the cafeteria was exploding soon.

I think being shielded from the blast up on the stairs meaning also being shielded from seeing the cafeteria quite possibly explains them missing the bombs failing, and also explains Dylan heading down the stairs. I think he checked on the bombs after he went down the stairs, but I don't think he went down the stairs to check on them. Also, if they started shooting because they knew the bombs failed, what's to check?  I think he started at the top to get shielded from the blast, then he went down the stairs to shoot people fleeing. I would point to the time he's descending the stairs when Eric makes his gesture in the cafeteria. Dylan seems pretty committed to what's in front of him until Eric points or waves or whatever. I imagine something similar happening when he shoots Dan and Lance, then has his attention diverted and realizes the bombs haven't gone off yet.

Other than the contradiction with those written plans, the reason given for why they must have wanted to shoot from the cars is that the cars flanked the exits. Even if that were true, that doesn't prove they were going to shoot by them. However, I think it's only true with Eric's car. His car was near the south entrance, but Dylan's was virtually in the middle of the parking lot. If it flanked the cafeteria, it would probably run the risk of injuring them by the stairs.

Do me a favor, summarize all that into a coherent single paragraph and then I'll attempt to read it.
I tried to read it but you lost me at calling propane tanks "gas cans", and shooting cops was their priority when they shot at them for less than a minute in total out of the hour they were in the school.
You try to say they weren't hell bent on destroying the school yet contradict yourself by saying they turned the gas on and tried to detonate the propane tanks. Sounds like destruction to me.
They literally walked the halls shooting lockers, threw molly's in the cafeteria and library, threw pipe-bombs everywhere, and started a decent sized fire in a science closet to name a few, but hey they weren't trying to destroy as much of the school as they could
Propane doesn't combust when shot, so the suicide thing makes zero sense, especially because they were a good 20-30 feet away.
Eric used the railing for support for better accuracy. Nothing about that screams suicide, but everything points to wanting to cause more destruction.
Even if the propane tanks were combustible when shot, their small size would only be fatal if they were literally on top of them, even then it most likely wouldn't be.
They had guns. Explain why they would risk losing limbs and burning a slow painful death instead of a painless bullet to the head.


You also state tons of things I've never said like "I doubt it means charge the cafeteria while it's on fire and full of corpses, though I won't say it's impossible", and "even those who think that's what happened that day (I don't), they don't think they had much of a plan B going in" they were confident the bombs would work", when I said that exact thing 2 posts above.
You're all over the place.


It's good you're passionate in your beliefs, but it seems like you overthink everything to an extreme degree, and state opinions as they are facts.
Like [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said, there are alot more logical and practical reasons to explain basically every point you've said.
But I'm not here to tell you what to believe, that's the good thing about theory's.

Christ dude I've been more than nice and just look at how you structure your paragraphs compared to mine, or use "wonder" meaning wander and "would of" meaning would've and "theory's" meaning theories. Inb4 "lol this isn't English class" - well then don't look illiterate while calling people incoherent. There was a lot to address, so I addressed it. If it's too much for you, don't address so much or get into these discussions.  If you use multiple, bizarrely formatted paragraphs, don't demand a single paragraph from me.

You did not address what I felt were holes in your interpretation: Dylan never said the massacre would last 15 minutes, why is he charging the school, no timeline has them planting the bombs at 11:09, or the weaknesses of "plan B".

"You also state tons of things I've never said" Ironic. I never called propane tanks gas cans. Each of the 4 propane bombs in the cafeteria were built with gas cans attached. The fire you see on the CCTV is the gas can catching fire, not the propane. Each of the car bombs were 2 propane tanks, pipe bombs, AND gas cans and bottles set throughout.

"They literally walked the halls shooting lockers, threw molly's in the cafeteria and library, threw pipe-bombs everywhere, and started a decent sized fire in a science closet to name a few, but hey they weren't trying to destroy as much of the school as they could".

They could have detached the gas cans from each cafeteria bomb and sprayed the whole school with gasoline if they wanted to do so, but they left them there. They also had several crickets still on them when they died. "literally walked the halls shooting lockers" yeah, and denting some lockers, or starting one fire, is hardly "destroying as much of the school as you could".  They could have smashed every window. And that isn't what Question Mark said, he offered one different explanation for the carbine, and then speculated that they were shooting lockers and such to draw out police - that's if anything giving some weight to my explanation, not yours, which is literally just what everyone says at first blush.

"Shooting cops was their priority when they shot at them for less than a minute in total out of the hour they were in the school." Even including their time outside it wasn't an hour, nor do I think it was less than a minute spent shooting at cops. Got Eric engaging with two cops outside, the shots in the library, and I think roughly 3 minutes when they return to the library before the suicide.

Regardless, yes, by all accounts they wanted to kill cops. It fits with both the narrative of revenge for the "van incident" and with "they were playing a shooter video game IRL".  Not spending longer shooting at cops seems to be their inability to hit them, not their not wanting the police dead. Yes, I don't think the urge to shoot lockers is why they got bored with killing students, and I think anybody in their situation would have expected the cops to be somewhere in the school, and want to find them to neutralize them and to avoid being taken alive.  What's absurd about that? I need more than "wow just wow".

Consider the "LA Riots, OKC, WW2, Vietnam,  Doom, and Duke all mixed together" quote. The bombs and the date were like OKC, or WW2, depending on whether you take the 4/19 because McVeigh or 4/20 because Hitler interpretation. LA Riots aside from the chaos probably refers to the fires if not also the revenge against police, Vietnam to the napalm, and been over the Doom parallels. What about Duke Nukem 3D? Probably at least 2 parallels there: pipe bombs and killing cops (LAPD pig-cops in the game, a level above the usual monsters).

"Propane doesn't combust when shot, so the suicide thing makes zero sense, especially because they were a good 20-30 feet away...Even if the propane tanks were combustible when shot, their small size would only be fatal if they were literally on top of them"

It makes perfect sense. They said they were going to blow up the library the whole time they were in there. Either they thought the bombs were going to explode on their own, or they thought they could make them explode. There's no third option, and that's obviously why Eric wants to go to the commons. The first thing Eric does is shoot at the bombs, obviously hoping they will explode like a barrel of nukage in Doom or a tank in Duke Nukem 3D. Saying some teenagers playing Doom IRL didn't know that would not work is not a criticism, and downright bizarre to say they knew shooting would do nothing but also he shot at it to cause more destruction. Then Dylan threw a molotov at it for obviously the same reason of making it explode, and he was even closer.

Absurd to say they needed to hug the bombs for them to die from them. They were trying to kill as many people in the cafeteria as they could with them. Investigators said they could have collapsed the library. The shooters themselves said they were going to kill everyone in the library by blowing it up. Then they go try and blow them up. If they exploded with full blast - enough to kill people in the library, they would have died standing in the cafeteria.

"Eric used the railing for support for better accuracy. Nothing about that screams suicide" Wanting to accurately hit a bomb that will kill you if it explodes doesn't scream suicide because accuracy? Doesn't make sense.  Nowhere have I argued the only reason to make the bombs explode was suicide. They wanted to make the cafeteria and library explode, obviously. That's why it would have killed them. But I don't think "wandering the school" has anything to do with "destroy as much as possible", because they could have done more, and it seems to play on the usual "was it remorse or was it destroying the school" false dichotomy which ignores that they had just committed murder and cops were around, and that they also wanted dead cops, and to die by cop. I think that false dichotomy comes from applying our hindsight that the cops did not enter to them, and nothing else.

"Explain why they would risk losing limbs and burning a slow painful death instead of a painless bullet to the head."
Because I don't think they thought it would be a slow painful death. They thought the bombs could take out the library above and they were standing a few feet away from them. They thought they'd be blown to bits, not burning slowly. They were not just propane tanks, they were bombs made from propane tanks.

It's good you're passionate in your beliefs, but it seems like you overthink everything to an extreme degree, and state opinions as they are facts. I'm really not, nor have I done that, look in the mirror. You've stated outright falsehoods like that Dylan said the massacre would last 15 minutes or that the bombs were planted at 11:09 because of what Dylan wrote.

Fair enough, you didn't say Dylan said they would charge the cafeteria - though you didn't really offer what he was talking about while using the quote to determine the planned length of the massacre. What you said was this: Does he mean "waiting to charge" the school as in walk up to students running out, or does he mean actually going inside the school.  

Well to "walk up to students running out", like say he did Dan and Lance, certainly isn't "charging the school", and people would have been running out of the cafeteria. So I took "walk up to students running out" to mean charging the cafeteria, and "actually going inside the school" to mean entering the west entrance, like they did and like I said they planned to do, and with which you seemed to be disagreeing. So I gave you the first horn. Maybe they wanted to kill themselves in the cafeteria among their victims or something, and that's what they meant by charge the school. But no, you didn't even say that, you think running up to an individual student in the parking lot is "charging the school". Much worse, my mistake.

I'm not the one who is all over the place. You just said you agreed they had no plan B.  When asked to explain why you think Dylan was talking about the length of the massacre, here's what you offered: The reason I assumed he was talking about the massacre's length, is because they were going to go through with it no matter what. Even if the bombs didn't go off, NBK was going to happen. That's plan B. I'm not sure how that's relevant either, but it's certainly talking about plan B. If that was the source of your confusion about what Dylan was saying, then I was sympathetic, and tried to dispel the notion.

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See the red gas can attached to the white propane tank? Do I have to post the quotes about "killing cops" too? You're a very serious person for disregarding my post for saying gas can and cops; and making fun of my coherence while making a middle school C student blush.

The last time I tried to converse with you you made fun of me for comparing the basement tapes quote of a "suicide plan" with napalm to the attempted suicide of shooting at the propane tanks, because napalm is an "incendiary". So is propane and gasoline!

cakeman wrote:

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See the red gas can attached to the white propane tank? Do I have to post the quotes about "killing cops" too? You're a very serious person for disregarding my post for saying gas can and cops; and making fun of my coherence while making a middle school C student blush.

The last time I tried to converse with you you made fun of me for comparing the basement tapes quote of a  "suicide plan" with napalm to the attempted suicide of shooting at the propane tanks, because napalm is an "incendiary". So is propane and gasoline!

In the almost 5 years I've been a member on this board, I've never made fun of anyone.
I just pointed out your extreme overthinking which seems to get under your skin, so I feel as I'm not the first person to tell you that.
You can tell how serious I take someone by how good or bad my grammar is   .
Your essay answers were all over the place, and when you resort to being the grammar police on the internet, it's a good sign you lost the debate. Grammar is one thing, talking in circles is another.
It's pretty sad that all you can do is resort to stating the 15 minute massacre comment, even though I logically explained why I thought that was the case.
Ironically, you're trying to call me out on something that no one knows for a fact what he meant.
Literally just about everything you said, you tried to state like it's a fact, when in reality it's nothing but a theory. Hypocrite much?

I've never read such long posts that seemingly explain nothing. Every time a logical rebuttal is stated, you just make up a more bizarre response to fit your narrative.
From "They would of doused the whole school in gasoline" to  "shooting cops were a priority, but they only shot at cops for 3 minutes", and so many more.
I just don't care enough to continue responding to be frank.

The propane tanks would not of taken the library down, period. There are plenty of experts that have debunked this.
Again, propane doesn't combust when shot and that little 2 gallon can of gas wouldn't of done jack shit.
It sounds like you've been watching too many movies.

You came out of nowhere trying to tell us what Eric and Dylan thought, like you're in their heads.
Were you a fly on the wall in a past life in Eric or Dylan's house and over heard them talking? Because if you were boy do I have questions for you 
This will just keep going in circles, so do me a favor, don't hijack my threads with your overblown "my theorys are facts, and everyone else is wrong" essay bullshit.
You do have a vivid imagination though, which is for sure a good thing.

I started out nothing but nice. You criticized my English first; when yours is the same amount of bloody atrocious in every post no matter to whom you are speaking, so you aren't fooling anyone. What gets under my skin is people who aren't half as smart as they think they are and never admit when they are wrong. Notice he couldn't even admit he was wrong about the gas cans, and pretends his stating the 15 minute long massacre and 11:09 bomb planting time as fact was my problem. Just stop at "I've never read."

By bullet points for the illiterate, with some additional points to drive it home.
* = the greatest genius of our times
> = unhinged contradictory stupid man

multiple bullets for supporting reasons

*"Dylan said the massacre would last for 15 minutes"

>He literally never said this, he supposedly said it will be "the most nerve-racking 15 minutes of my life, after the bombs are set and we're waiting to charge through the school."
>>It could mean a lot of things. It could mean there will be 15 minutes after the bombs are planted until they explode. No reason whatsoever to suppose it means the length of the massacre.

> I think it means an estimated 15 minutes of shooting victims fleeing from the bombs, until the victims figure out to flee in the other direction, and then the shooters cut off their escape by entering the west entrance.
>>Which is exactly what they did once Dylan saw people run the other direction.
>>This is one appeal to the plan being for the massacre to start on the stairs rather than the parking lot, which seems to be a myth.
>>15 minutes until they turn around, and another 15 minutes until they turn around again might also explain why the cars bombs were set for noon.
>>Maybe this is where they use their knives to stab people.
>>>Dylan wrote the report on the Manson murders, which are stabbings.
>>>He talked about always wanting to stab people in the library.
>>>For some reason he finds the 15 minutes "nerve racking".  
>>>Most agree the main purpose of the guns is to shoot fleeing people.
>>>Maybe they would have been low on ammo at that point, and you have to get up close, i. e. charge the school to stab people.

*"I logically explained why I thought that was the case."

>No, you didn't, you said it was because they were going through with NBK even if the bombs failed, which doesn't have anything to do with the quote.

>Somehow when I actually do this, it's bad and making excuses and too much for him to read.

*"The knives were just for show"

>They spoke about using them, before and during the massacre.

>Any theory which includes a reason for taking them is superior to one that punts on that issue.  
>>Say even if it was just in case they were jumped or cops got them or whatever.

>Seems lazy to say that just because they did not use them.
>>Might as well say the propane bombs were for show because they didn't go off.


*"The car bombs were to get police once they sat inside the cars"

>Literally nobody thinks this. Everybody says it was to either get fleeing students or approaching first responders/police/news media.
>>The car bombs were twice the size of the cafeteria bombs. They were not only for people sitting on top of them.

*"They planted the bombs at 11:09"

>There are three timelines bickered over, and none are that the bombs were planted at 11:09.

>This comes from the notes Dylan made, but they didn't exactly follow that plan. There's another plan in Eric's day planner, and they didn't follow that one either. They seemed to have combined them and altered the plans multiple times.


*"They wondered [sic] the school because they wanted to destroy the school"

>This seems a cliche born of applying our hindsight that the cops did not enter to them.
>>It seems to me a perfectly logical inference to say the cops must have been on their mind
>>>If so, it's just as much a good inference to say they went looking for them.
>>>Makes way more sense to say they got bored with killing students to move on to killing cops, rather than to shoot at lockers.

>It's not even clear the massacre was about hating school.
>>The school was the most familiar place with the most potential victims
>>Eric wrote not to blame the administration
>>Supposedly, they speculate on attacking their work before the school on the tapes.


*"But you admit they wanted to blow up the cafeteria and library and turned on the gas and shot at lockers and so forth. You cannot also say they did not wander around to destroy as much of the school as they could but on pain of contradiction."

>No contradiction
>>Even if they wanted to destroy the school, it doesn't follow that's why they wandered about.
>>The cafeteria and library was the front of the school for news media and so forth.
>>>Supposedly the only molotov cocktails which worked were the one on the CCTV in the cafeteria and the one on the library table before the suicide.
>>They could have broken every window, used their lighters on everything flammable, used every cricket they had, and detached the gas cans from the propane tanks and spread gas throughout the school. They didn't. So, objectively, they did not "destroy as much of the school as they could"

>The turning on the gas and the one fire seems interesting, but the science rooms with the gas were near the library as I understand, and the one fire was next to the room with Dave Sanders and other potential victims. That gas seems to be the one "plan B" I'll buy, and why just one fire, I wonder (that's how you use that word).

*"Lol I will ignore everything you said because you confuse propane tanks with gas cans and think they wanted to kill cops"

>I never confused propane tanks with gas cans. Both were components of the bombs.

>They did want to kill cops.

*"They spent only a minute shooting cops."

>Much longer than a minute.

>However long it was, they did it as much as they could.

>>Eric at Gardner until his gun jams or he reloads, and still more after that
>>In the library until they need to duck away from the return fire and aren't hitting anyone
>>Again when they return to the library even though none of it will hit them.
>>Threw pipe bombs at them too.

*"Propane doesn't combust when shot"

>This guy tries to tell me I think I'm in their heads. How does he know they knew this?

>He literally says they shot at the propane tanks to cause more destruction but that they knew shooting them would do absolutely nothing. Genius.
>>Then Dylan throws a molotov cocktail at it because um he wanted to make it explode but shooting at it totally wasn't that
>>Doom and Duke Nukem was their only experience with anything like this, and in those games things do explode if you shoot them.

>Also they were propane *bombs*, not just propane.

*"They had guns to shoot themselves, so it makes no sense to say they could have died if the bombs exploded when they shot at them."

>Well, they would have.

>They had knives too. Cutting your own throat or shooting yourself is a lot 'colder' than letting a bomb go off.

>Eric said he would die in an explosion of the napalm.
>>His response to this before was that napalm is an incendiary as if propane isn't. Genius.

>Dylan wrote about tying the pipe bomb "Atlanta" to his neck to kill himself

*"The propane tanks would not of taken the library down, period."

>"Would not of" while trying to sound authoritative, for fucks sake

>You haven't shown that they didn't know this. They said it would, in the library, repeatedly.

*"LOL those little gas cans"

>One of them is literally what caused the fire you see on the CCTV.

*"Every time a logical rebuttal is stated, you just make up a more bizarre response to fit your narrative."

>Projection

>5 years on the board, didn't know gas cans were attached to the propane tanks, thinks the bombs were planted at 11:09, and thinks Dylan said the massacre was going to last 15 minutes.

cakeman wrote:

I started out nothing but nice. You criticized my English first; when yours is the same amount of bloody atrocious in every post no matter to whom you are speaking, so you aren't fooling anyone. What gets under my skin is people who aren't half as smart as they think they are and never admit when they are wrong. Notice he couldn't even admit he was wrong about the gas cans, and pretends his stating the 15 minute long massacre and 11:09 bomb planting time as fact was my problem. Just stop at "I've never read."

By bullet points for the illiterate, with some additional points to drive it home.
* = the greatest genius of our times
> = unhinged contradictory stupid man

multiple bullets for supporting reasons

*"Dylan said the massacre would last for 15 minutes"

>He literally never said this, he supposedly said it will be "the most nerve-racking 15 minutes of my life, after the bombs are set and we're waiting to charge through the school."
>>It could mean a lot of things. It could mean there will be 15 minutes after the bombs are planted until they explode. No reason whatsoever to suppose it means the length of the massacre.

> I think it means an estimated 15 minutes of shooting victims fleeing from the bombs, until the victims figure out to flee in the other direction, and then the shooters cut off their escape by entering the west entrance.
>>Which is exactly what they did once Dylan saw people run the other direction.
>>This is one appeal to the plan being for the massacre to start on the stairs rather than the parking lot, which seems to be a myth.
>>15 minutes until they turn around, and another 15 minutes until they turn around again might also explain why the cars bombs were set for noon.
>>Maybe this is where they use their knives to stab people.
>>>Dylan wrote the report on the Manson murders, which are stabbings.
>>>He talked about always wanting to stab people in the library.
>>>For some reason he finds the 15 minutes "nerve racking".  
>>>Most agree the main purpose of the guns is to shoot fleeing people.
>>>Maybe they would have been low on ammo at that point, and you have to get up close, i. e. charge the school to stab people.

*"I logically explained why I thought that was the case."

>No, you didn't, you said it was because they were going through with NBK even if the bombs failed, which doesn't have anything to do with the quote.

>Somehow when I actually do this, it's bad and making excuses and too much for him to read.

*"The knives were just for show"

>They spoke about using them, before and during the massacre.

>Any theory which includes a reason for taking them is superior to one that punts on that issue.  
>>Say even if it was just in case they were jumped or cops got them or whatever.

>Seems lazy to say that just because they did not use them.
>>Might as well say the propane bombs were for show because they didn't go off.


*"The car bombs were to get police once they sat inside the cars"

>Literally nobody thinks this. Everybody says it was to either get fleeing students or approaching first responders/police/news media.
>>The car bombs were twice the size of the cafeteria bombs. They were not only for people sitting on top of them.

*"They planted the bombs at 11:09"

>There are three timelines bickered over, and none are that the bombs were planted at 11:09.

>This comes from the notes Dylan made, but they didn't exactly follow that plan. There's another plan in Eric's day planner, and they didn't follow that one either. They seemed to have combined them and altered the plans multiple times.


*"They wondered [sic] the school because they wanted to destroy the school"

>This seems a cliche born of applying our hindsight that the cops did not enter to them.
>>It seems to me a perfectly logical inference to say the cops must have been on their mind
>>>If so, it's just as much a good inference to say they went looking for them.
>>>Makes way more sense to say they got bored with killing students to move on to killing cops, rather than to shoot at lockers.

>It's not even clear the massacre was about hating school.
>>The school was the most familiar place with the most potential victims
>>Eric wrote not to blame the administration
>>Supposedly, they speculate on attacking their work before the school on the tapes.


*"But you admit they wanted to blow up the cafeteria and library and turned on the gas and shot at lockers and so forth. You cannot also say they did not wander around to destroy as much of the school as they could but on pain of contradiction."

>No contradiction
>>Even if they wanted to destroy the school, it doesn't follow that's why they wandered about.
>>The cafeteria and library was the front of the school for news media and so forth.
>>>Supposedly the only molotov cocktails which worked were the one on the CCTV in the cafeteria and the one on the library table before the suicide.
>>They could have broken every window, used their lighters on everything flammable, used every cricket they had, and detached the gas cans from the propane tanks and spread gas throughout the school. They didn't. So, objectively, they did not "destroy as much of the school as they could"

>The turning on the gas and the one fire seems interesting, but the science rooms with the gas were near the library as I understand, and the one fire was next to the room with Dave Sanders and other potential victims. That gas seems to be the one "plan B" I'll buy, and why just one fire, I wonder (that's how you use that word).

*"Lol I will ignore everything you said because you confuse propane tanks with gas cans and think they wanted to kill cops"

>I never confused propane tanks with gas cans. Both were components of the bombs.

>They did want to kill cops.

*"They spent only a minute shooting cops."

>Much longer than a minute.

>However long it was, they did it as much as they could.

>>Eric at Gardner until his gun jams or he reloads, and still more after that
>>In the library until they need to duck away from the return fire and aren't hitting anyone
>>Again when they return to the library even though none of it will hit them.
>>Threw pipe bombs at them too.

*"Propane doesn't combust when shot"

>This guy tries to tell me I think I'm in their heads. How does he know they knew this?

>He literally says they shot at the propane tanks to cause more destruction but that they knew shooting them would do absolutely nothing. Genius.
>>Then Dylan throws a molotov cocktail at it because um he wanted to make it explode but shooting at it totally wasn't that
>>Doom and Duke Nukem was their only experience with anything like this, and in those games things do explode if you shoot them.

>Also they were propane *bombs*, not just propane.

*"They had guns to shoot themselves, so it makes no sense to say they could have died if the bombs exploded when they shot at them."

>Well, they would have.

>They had knives too. Cutting your own throat or shooting yourself is a lot 'colder' than letting a bomb go off.

>Eric said he would die in an explosion of the napalm.
>>His response to this before was that napalm is an incendiary as if propane isn't. Genius.

>Dylan wrote about tying the pipe bomb "Atlanta" to his neck to kill himself

*"The propane tanks would not of taken the library down, period."

>"Would not of" while trying to sound authoritative, for fucks sake

>You haven't shown that they didn't know this. They said it would, in the library, repeatedly.

*"LOL those little gas cans"

>One of them is literally what caused the fire you see on the CCTV.

*"Every time a logical rebuttal is stated, you just make up a more bizarre response to fit your narrative."

>Projection

>5 years on the board, didn't know gas cans were attached to the propane tanks, thinks the bombs were planted at 11:09, and thinks Dylan said the massacre was going to last 15 minutes.

Please stop hijacking my topics with your overblown off-topic theories.
This thread is about the length of the massacre compared to other shootings.
I already asked you nicely once not to derail my topics, if you want to share your theories create your own thread.

Except you didn't ask nicely and it's about things you said. You couldn't have been more of a mouth-breathing ass or more wrong.

Nobody thinks:

1) Dylan said the massacre was planned to last 15 minutes
2) There were no gas cans, only propane tanks
3) The gas cans which didn't exist couldn't start a fire (you see one on the CCTV)
4) The bombs were planted at 11:09
5) They (not you, them) didn't hope or think shooting at the bombs would make them explode
6) They (not you, them) didn't think the bombs would take out the library
7) The car bombs were for people inside the cars
They didn't want to kill cops.
9) Napalm is an incendiary but propane isn't

Those are your theories shown to be crap with basic inferences and things like "here's a picture". You've been here 5 years and know nothing.

Imagine if they had better guns, started the shooting inside, and just went classroom by classroom, they could have killed an insane amount with all the time the police gave them.

DanielGardner wrote:

Imagine if they had better guns, started the shooting inside, and just went classroom by classroom, they could have killed an insane amount with all the time the police gave them.

They did have some rather crappy guns, so I guess it was a blessing in disguise in the end. Regardless if they had better weapons, it's still crazy that in almost an hour only 13 people died.
Thanks for staying on topic.
Regarding [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I can't argue with someone who tries to tell us what the whole forum thinks, and what Eric and Dylan were thinking at any given moment like he was in their heads.
He keeps hijacking my threads, and blurting out overblown shit like "they would of burned the school down" or "or gas cans started a fire on cctv" when it was a Molotov that did and you can clearly see in photos the gas cans weren't damaged at all.
"No one thinks car were meant for people going through the car", Apparently he is a mind reader now too.  
I think at this point he is just trolling us.
I nicely asked him multiple times to stay on topic, and not hijack my threads, so at this point I have to go to a 3rd grade level and ignore him and stop giving him attention.

1) "Shooting at the bombs to destroy the cafeteria proves they roamed the halls in order to destroy the school somehow.

But also thinking they shot at the bombs in order to make them explode is silly. They knew it would do nothing and did it for no reason. "

2) "There were no gas cans.

But also, wait there were gas cans? Well the gas cans were there for no reason. They couldn't start a fire, even though we see one with our own eyes on video."

3) "They never considered dying in an explosion.

But also, wait Eric said the napalm was the suicide plan? Well I can pretend that napalm is an incendiary and propane isn't, that would help my point somehow."

4) "Dylan said the massacre would last 15 minutes

Oh he didn't? Well I thought he did because they were going to go through with NBK even if the bombs failed. That other unsupported assertion somehow supports this one."

5) "Criticize my theories with facts of the case, and also offer your own so you aren't merely criticizing? That's just you theorizing! "

"would of", "theory's", "per say," bizarrely structured paragraphs, 45 IQ says "No u are incoherent!"

I don't have to be a mind reader. You have to be a mind reader and an incredibly stupid one to say they didn't think the bombs would explode when shooting at them, or that they didn't think the library would collapse when they said it would.

All I have to do is look. The car bombs were more than twice the size of the bombs meant to take out the commons, and all of the books, investigators, and so forth theorize it was either for fleeing students or approaching first responders/police/media. None of them say it was for people sitting in the cars. That's you theorizing and reading their minds and again very, very stupidly.

Here's a picture you've never seen in five years:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

"when it was a Molotov that did and you can clearly see in photos the gas cans weren't damaged at all." LMAO you utter buffoon, remember you started saying there were no gas cans. The photo is of the one that didn't catch fire, obviously.  The other one was empty and charred, because it caught fire. The molotov cocktail lit the gas can. Did the molotov in the library start a fire so big? No, obviously, so why not? Maybe because, there wasn't a bloody gas can on the table? Inb4 you never answer because the insufferable, illiterate ego is incapable of not being an ass and admitting it was wrong.

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"Smaller containers of flammable liquids were attached to the bomb and these were ignited by whatever it was Dylan threw, causing a fire as the shooters went back upstairs at 11:46 AM." - A Columbine Site

Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] is documented as “coleman fuel can (empty)” at table PP (the same one in the above photo)

All right you guys..... keep it respectful. NO name calling period