A new book

Kristen Krueger was a senior at the time.



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Kristen Long Krueger 4-26-81 pages 005026-005032

Oh wow! She was friends with Zach and them. At the very least when they were underclassman.

Zach who?

Heckler

It looks like she has a Masters in Forsenic Psychology and is working towards her PhD in Clinical Psychology. She has a business helping people deal with trauma.
Is it ok to provide the link to her webpage?

I think it's important to point out that while Eric and Dylan left a lot of physical and psychologic damage in their wake, survivors like Kristen have gone on to use the trauma they experienced to make a difference in the lives of others. E & D wanted to haunt people for the rest of their lives and, sadly, they probably do. But I'd like to think there are just as many others, like Kristen, who turned that awful day into something positive and are, maybe, living more purposeful lives than perhaps they would have otherwise. Kind of the opposite of what E & D would have hoped for, and that's a great thing.

thelmar wrote:

It looks like she has a Masters in Forsenic Psychology and is working towards her PhD in Clinical Psychology. She has a business helping people deal with trauma.
Is it ok to provide the link to her webpage?

I think it's important to point out that while Eric and Dylan left a lot of physical and psychologic damage in their wake, survivors like Kristen have gone on to use the trauma they experienced to make a difference in the lives of others. E & D wanted to haunt people for the rest of their lives and, sadly, they probably do. But I'd like to think there are just as many others, like Kristen, who turned that awful day into something positive and are, maybe, living more purposeful lives than perhaps they would have otherwise. Kind of the opposite of what E & D would have hoped for, and that's a great thing.

Yes! Please do and there are many local organizations doing great things for survivors. People in the community are coming through to help others who have been through the same thing. There are some not profits doing fund raising etc...

You can really go one of two ways when something like this happens and a lot of people choice a positive outlook after a while. Or look at someone like Austin Eubanks who used drugs and alcohol to numb his pain for so long and now has turned everything around. Eric and Dylan certainly got a lot of what they wanted but I wonder if they knew if it would have effected so many people around the world and that we would all still be talking about it after all of this time?


The thing is, they did start a chain reaction, kind of like what Rachel wanted to do.. I would like to think, since I do think E & D were dealing with their own mental health issues that we are not only looking at the mental health issues for survivors but those who may be at risk for carrying out an act of violence.

For the last couple of weeks I have been really reflecting on everything and feeling meloncholy. I was 17 when it happened and I have had a lot of varied experiences and now living in the area, it is a lot.

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In the About section she mentions Columbine and her path to healing.
It sounds like her book will mostly discuss ways of dealing with trauma and will not dwell on the attack itself. I do hope she offers her insight into Eric and Dylan since she did spend time with them. In her police statement she says that they (I assume not just E & D, but Tad Boles, Zach and Chris, too) would talk of guns, bombs, and killing people but that they never made threats against anyone specific. I would be interested to know what her thoughts on their mental states were. She did say in her statement that even if they had told her about their plan for NBK she would not have believed them because it "sounded so unbelievable."

Screamingophelia wrote:

For the last couple of weeks I have been really reflecting on everything and feeling meloncholy. I was 17 when it happened and I have had a lot of varied experiences and now living in the area, it is a lot.

I know what you mean. I feel like as the anniversary approaches, I have been thinking a lot more about it, as well. I can only imagine how being in the area during this time would be, since the anniversary must weigh heavily on people there, as well.

This is interesting! I'm glad she's been able to move on from the trauma of the shooting and come out of it with something like this. And her major! You think the shooting changed that?

thelmar wrote:

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In the About section she mentions Columbine and her path to healing.
It sounds like her book will mostly discuss ways of dealing with trauma and will not dwell on the attack itself. I do hope she offers her insight into Eric and Dylan since she did spend time with them. In her police statement she says that they (I assume not just E & D, but Tad Boles, Zach and Chris, too) would talk of guns, bombs, and killing people but that they never made threats against anyone specific. I would be interested to know what her thoughts on their mental states were. She did say in her statement that even if they had told her about their plan for NBK she would not have believed them because it "sounded so unbelievable."

Screamingophelia wrote:

For the last couple of weeks I have been really reflecting on everything and feeling meloncholy. I was 17 when it happened and I have had a lot of varied experiences and now living in the area, it is a lot.

I know what you mean. I feel like as the anniversary approaches, I have been thinking a lot more about it, as well. I can only imagine how being in the area during this time would be, since the anniversary must weigh heavily on people there, as well.

I think she’s going to have an interesting perspective. I really also hope that she’ll talk a little more about knowing them and being friends with them even if it was as underclassman just to kind a get a different perspective. I feel like it’s the closest thing we will get since Brooks. Someone who knew them and hung out with them talking about them.

There are so many events coming up And is interesting because some people don’t realize it’s been 20 years and other people actually are very cognizant of it and are already taking the day off etc

Just read the first few pages on Amazon and apparently she is claiming a 3rd shooter.

In her police statement, pg. 5030, she described a really tall male wearing a black trench coat. She believed he was white. He had a large nose. His hair was matted down, unknown length, and she was certain his hair color was dark, not blond. On pg. 5031, police asked her who she though it was. The name is redacted but I am assuming she said Perry because in her book she said this person had dropped out of school. In her police statement she said "she did not clearly see that individual's face and could not positively identify the person." She said she saw this person jog past the hall that she was in, he was not shooting at that time but had a gun. She thought she saw this person again, in silhouette, as she was exiting the main doors but did not see a gun at that time. In her statement she says as she was approaching the main doors to exit, the glass in both doors was intact and as she was running out, a bullet passed her head and the glass on the left side shattered.
Are the "main doors" the west entrance doors where Eric and Dylan entered the school or is this another set of doors? Because I thought, according to the timeline and witness accounts, they had shot out the glass in these doors early in the attack.
She said that she stopped having breakfast with Tad Boles, Zach, Chris, and sometimes E & D, in December of 1998 because she wanted to spend more time with her boyfriend instead.

But now, in her book, she is saying not only that she saw Perry (she doesn't name him) and police are ignoring the claims for the "easy answer" that E & D did it alone, but that she also heard a loud voice in her head telling her to duck and as she did shots were fired and her head got grazed by a bullet. She is also saying that her younger brother (Eric Long pg. 6798-6802) saw Eric and Dylan in their car prior to the shooting "preparing for their rampage." Yet, in his police statement, he says that he walked home for lunch and saw nothing unusual.
Also, she now says that she intentionally distanced herself from Zach, E & D and the rest not because of her boyfriend but because they used to talk about killing people and "she knew the difference between right and wrong and refused to participate in their fantasies."

Not sure I'll buy it now. I'll probably read it if I can get it for free.

thelmar wrote:

Just read the first few pages on Amazon and apparently she is claiming a 3rd shooter.

In her police statement, pg. 5030, she described a really tall male wearing a black trench coat. She believed he was white. He had a large nose. His hair was matted down, unknown length, and she was certain his hair color was dark, not blond. On pg. 5031, police asked her who she though it was. The name is redacted but I am assuming she said Perry because in her book she said this person had dropped out of school. In her police statement she said "she did not clearly see that individual's face and could not positively identify the person." She said she saw this person jog past the hall that she was in, he was not shooting at that time but had a gun. She thought she saw this person again, in silhouette, as she was exiting the main doors but did not see a gun at that time. In her statement she says as she was approaching the main doors to exit, the glass in both doors was intact and as she was running out, a bullet passed her head and the glass on the left side shattered.
Are the "main doors" the west entrance doors where Eric and Dylan entered the school or is this another set of doors? Because I thought, according to the timeline and witness accounts, they had shot out the glass in these doors early in the attack.
She said that she stopped having breakfast with Tad Boles, Zach, Chris, and sometimes E & D, in December of 1998 because she wanted to spend more time with her boyfriend instead.

But now, in her book, she is saying not only that she saw Perry (she doesn't name him) and police are ignoring the claims for the "easy answer" that E & D did it alone, but that she also heard a loud voice in her head telling her to duck and as she did shots were fired and her head got grazed by a bullet. She is also saying that her younger brother (Eric Long pg. 6798-6802) saw Eric and Dylan in their car prior to the shooting "preparing for their rampage." Yet, in his police statement, he says that he walked home for lunch and saw nothing unusual.
Also, she now says that she intentionally distanced herself from Zach, E & D and the rest not because of her boyfriend but because they used to talk about killing people and "she knew the difference between right and wrong and refused to participate in their fantasies."

Not sure I'll buy it now. I'll probably read it if I can get it for free.

I read the interviews, that is REALLY different. Not just a few discrepancies but extreme differences.

I also don't know that they were in a car together...

I know with Cullen's book you can be critical and question but is there anyway to be critical and ask her about the book without sounding like you are trying to disprove a survivor?

I mean people do it with Brooks...

Then again, how many people who will read her book will also read the 11k?

False memories are normal with survivors of traumatic events... (it sounds like dismissing their experience, but it's not, it's just what happens over time)... when a person reports that their memories get clearer over time, it's a 100% a sign that they have generated false memories. It's hard for some to believe, because it seems logical that a person might start to recall more details as time goes on, but decades of studies prove this to be false.

It's fascinating the way it works, especially when you get to be part of one of those experiments, no matter how small! We did that in my criminal justice classes in college.

But... people don't know that's what they're doing. So, I don't think it's something you can approach with them. It's been wired in their brain as fact, the neural pathways have been formed.

The same thing happened when Jeff Kass interviewed the recruiter who talked with Eric over a year after the massacre. He shared a story with more details, completely contradicting his original testimony.

I, too, was going to buy her book, but decided against it when I read the sample on Amazon and she was pronouncing that she identified a third shooter positively and was being ignored...

But she's telling her story so that's healing for her, and if people believe it, then that's their journey to discern and figure out... reading the whole 11k? Ain't nobody got time for that! Except for us

EthanEmerson wrote:

False memories are normal with survivors of traumatic events... (it sounds like dismissing their experience, but it's not, it's just what happens over time)...  when a person reports that their memories get clearer over time, it's a 100% a sign that they have generated false memories. It's hard for some to believe, because it seems logical that a person might start to recall more details as time goes on, but decades of studies prove this to be false.

It's fascinating the way it works, especially when you get to be part of one of those experiments, no matter how small! We did that in my criminal justice classes in college.

But... people don't know that's what they're doing. So, I don't think it's something you can approach with them. It's been wired in their brain as fact, the neural pathways have been formed.

The same thing happened when Jeff Kass interviewed the recruiter who talked with Eric over a year after the massacre. He shared a story with more details, completely contradicting his original testimony.

I, too, was going to buy her book, but decided against it when I read the sample on Amazon and she was pronouncing that she identified a third shooter positively and was being ignored...

But she's telling her story so that's healing for her, and if people believe it, then that's their journey to discern and figure out... reading the whole 11k? Ain't nobody got time for that! Except for us

I agree. I do like that she is sharing her story. It may not be the 100% truth but it is her "truth" now and if it is cathartic for her more power to her. Columbine is already full of grey areas, myths, and plot holes so why not add a few more.

I guess my question with regard to false memories would be is it still a false memory if you come out looking better in the process?

For example, in 1999 Kristen told police that she was good friends with Zach Heckler, etc. and the reason she stopped spending time with them in December 1998 was because she wanted to spend more time with her boyfriend. Flash forward to 2019, she writes a lot about her Christianity on her website, and now she says she stopped hanging out with them because she knew right from wrong and refused to participate in their violent fantasies.

Example [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Evan Todd in 1999- hit by wood splinters when fired at by Harris. Said to Dylan, "I don't want to get in trouble." "That's not what I meant. I mean, I don't have a problem with you guys, I never will and I never did." Fast forward to 2019 and he speaks of getting shot (implying by a bullet) and that he said to Dylan, "Look, I've been good to you and everyone else in this school and you know it". He claims after saying this, Dylan's face changed and he backed off. Todd is definitely implying that he confronted Dylan when in the actual encounter it sounds far less like that.

Example [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Kim Blair Woodruff in 1999- says she made eye contact with the shorter of the 2 gunmen right before the two fired and that he then shot Anne Marie. We know Eric was shorter and he is the one who shot AH. She also said that she did not know either gunmen but that she had seen them at school. She never mentions any interaction at school with either of them and the IO's never ask her to identify them by name. Fast forward to 2019- she says she made eye contact with Dylan right before they opened fire and that she thinks he didn't shoot her because she had always been nice to him. She also says that Dylan spared her twin sister, Patti, in the library because he might have thought Patti was her.

I admittedly know little about false memories. But to me these seem like fundamental items. You were shot or you weren't. You pleaded with someone not to shoot you or you didn't. You knew someone or you didn't. You moved on from a friendship for another relationship or because the friends were scary/violent/whatever. I don't understand how those things could be changed in someone's memory unless they, at one point, deliberately decided to make that change. And then, perhaps, told the story so many times in the new way that it became almost like the truth. But, would someone honestly believe it as truth to the exclusion of what actually happened?

[Edited to add- and for all 3 of these, they had longer than average police interviews. Kim Blair's was roughly 9 pages, Kristen Long's 6 pages, and Evan Todd's 17 pages. It would seem that some of the things they speak of now would have been spoken of in the interviews.]

EthanEmerson wrote:

False memories are normal with survivors of traumatic events... (it sounds like dismissing their experience, but it's not, it's just what happens over time)...  

Yes, you are correct, Ethan. In psychology, what you have described here is called the Mandela Effect.

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After learning tools to dissect my life and analyze situations objectively, I can say that false memories do sneak in without your conscious knowledge. I've actually uncovered several of my own false memories in stories I've told not surprisingly one of them was a situation that involved someone pointing a cocked gun at me.

It was a neighbor threatening to shoot my other neighbor's dog that had gotten loose, and I walked right up to him to grab my neighbor's dog away from him while he was aiming at the dog and I was right in the path of his shot, and his wife was grabbing at him pleading with him not to shoot the dog. Then, she started beating my neighbor's dog with a thick club like stick she was carrying. I found it odd that they were carrying a loaded gun and a stick out on their walk on a private gravel road. Most of us just carry pepper spray because it works for everything from people to bears to cougars and dog fights.

In the moment I wasn't at all scared, I was mad, and I didn't care if he shot me, I wasn't going to let him shoot that dog. So I was very present while the situation was unfolding. While it was happening, I took in every detail of his face, his gun, his two dogs, the words his wife said to one of their dogs, how she tapped the dog on the back and said a word and then the dogs both attacked my neighbor's dog simultaneously going for the hind quarters as if on command (I later researched to find out it's common to train shepherds to attack with various levels of intensity with commands given as a word and a tap on the body)...

However... when I got the dog away and brought her to my neighbor, I felt a rush of fear that was not present in the situation. And that rush of fear clouded my memory of the incident without my knowledge.

I clearly remember telling my neighbor the guy was pointing the gun at me, and I really felt, in that moment, that the guy didn't do anything to make sure he didn't hit me and was in fact aiming for me intentionally. Yet... days later I had this nagging feeling like that story wasn't right... and I sat with it for a while and realized that he was aiming for the dog but I was just in the same path. And he actually held the gun up in the air with his finger off the trigger when the dog moved away, so he was being half responsible... but I overlooked that when the fear was in my body, despite having taken in those details and mapped them in my mind as a photographic memory from the start.

I didn't realize I had omitted part of what I had mapped during the incident, but I didn't have any attachment to the story since it wasn't significant or important, so I didn't need to keep talking about it. I can see how if you are attached to a situation or it has more meaning in your life, you'd keep telling the story.

Kind of how Cassie's parents and Craig Scott can't let go of "she said yes" and the other examples you mentioned, especially Evan Todd.

Trauma does intense things to people. Even slight trauma. Plus, people want to feel certain about things in their life... they feel better when there's certainty around things. The mind wants answers and will invent answers based on limited information.

Just my experience and thoughts!

Ah yes the Mandela effect... I didn't realize that was a term in psychology!

EthanEmerson wrote:

But she's telling her story so that's healing for her, and if people believe it, then that's their journey to discern and figure out... reading the whole 11k? Ain't nobody got time for that! Except for us

Hello Ethan, I'm sorry for being offtopic but how's your website coming up? Really looking forward to it...
Take care!

thelmar wrote:

I guess my question with regard to false memories would be is it still a false memory if you come out looking better in the process?

For example, in 1999 Kristen told police that she was good friends with Zach Heckler, etc. and the reason she stopped spending time with them in December 1998 was because she wanted to spend more time with her boyfriend. Flash forward to 2019, she writes a lot about her Christianity on her website, and now she says she stopped hanging out with them because she knew right from wrong and refused to participate in their violent fantasies.

Example [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Evan Todd in 1999- hit by wood splinters when fired at by Harris. Said to Dylan, "I don't want to get in trouble." "That's not what I meant. I mean, I don't have a problem with you guys, I never will and I never did." Fast forward to 2019 and he speaks of getting shot (implying by a bullet) and that he said to Dylan, "Look, I've been good to you and everyone else in this school and you know it". He claims after saying this, Dylan's face changed and he backed off. Todd is definitely implying that he confronted Dylan when in the actual encounter it sounds far less like that.

Example [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Kim Blair Woodruff in 1999- says she made eye contact with the shorter of the 2 gunmen right before the two fired and that he then shot Anne Marie. We know Eric was shorter and he is the one who shot AH. She also said that she did not know either gunmen but that she had seen them at school. She never mentions any interaction at school with either of them and the IO's never ask her to identify them by name. Fast forward to 2019- she says she made eye contact with Dylan right before they opened fire and that she thinks he didn't shoot her because she had always been nice to him. She also says that Dylan spared her twin sister, Patti, in the library because he might have thought Patti was her.

I admittedly know little about false memories. But to me these seem like fundamental items. You were shot or you weren't. You pleaded with someone not to shoot you or you didn't. You knew someone or you didn't. You moved on from a friendship for another relationship or because the friends were scary/violent/whatever. I don't understand how those things could be changed in someone's memory unless they, at one point, deliberately decided to make that change. And then, perhaps, told the story so many times in the new way that it became almost like the truth. But, would someone honestly believe it as truth to the exclusion of what actually happened?

[Edited to add- and for all 3 of these, they had longer than average police interviews. Kim Blair's was roughly 9 pages, Kristen Long's 6 pages, and Evan Todd's 17 pages. It would seem that some of the things they speak of now would have been spoken of in the interviews.]

Another one... DeAngelis' statement in the 11k was pretty boring in and of itself...went into the office, escaped etc... but later on in an interview he told reporters that Sanders took a bullet for him even though he never saw Sanders that day nor was he ever in the area where Dave was shot! One of the things that makes me not like DeAngelis!

It's all good! I'm looking at launching it this April 20 (or maybe 19) even if it's not 100% complete for the first phase plan (there will be 3 phases)... I've linked to this book as well. I just finished programming Evidence Vol 1 into the viewing system last night. I still have easily 10 hours of work to finish programming the 11k and then I'm not even going to start the 10k for a while since that's not as important.

All in all... the 11k is priority since that's what people want to read most! There will be pages linked that will say "coming soon" but not too many. Unless people have an urge to read another report first, I'm just programming them in alphabetical order lol

The first phase is just to have all documents available in the viewing system (this is unlike anything seen before - I was messing around with some JQuery and Javascript and ended up with something that made my life easier viewing the docs) Eventually the reports will be searchable in a site wide search engine that returns results like Google. At that point I'll need a dedicated server so that's a ways away.

I can easily see this project spanning another 5 years to finish all I have planned...

If you'd like to see a preview with some screen shots let me know, I think I can get PMs here but if not just poke me and I'll change my settings so I can!

It's amazing how memories evolve in these ways, even with DeAngelis. There was a good documentary on this demonstrating this phenomenon that I saw not that long ago. Can't remember the title. There are so many, but this one was REALLY good. Noting to go find it and come back here...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I'm about to send you a PM to answer your question! Sorry it took me a while.

And I can't remember that documentary, but it might pop up in my awareness later on.