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 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?

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PostSubject: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 9:58 am

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In Norway we had a similar massacre. The misinformation around the event aswell as Hitchens article has led me to think about it is that we dont rush to judgement:

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Answer isnt 'set in Stone'. RIP to everyone that died that Day, and I hope that the media has becoming better at not giving too much of public exposure to mass murderers and hence creating copycat effects.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 10:05 am

Media coverage can be toxic and I think many survivors and their families (this includes Sue) are trying to change this. Even my own mother agrees and she usually stays out of any political discussion etc.. take a look at what happened last week with Sol Pais?

I think Columbine was different when it comes to Eric and Dylan. I think we learned that there may not be a blue print as to why school or mass shooting happen... I feel like there are so many different motives and "reasons" why they do what they do.

I'm not sure what else...

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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 12:18 pm

I think one of the biggest things we learned is that seemingly normal people are capable of this. When we look at the whole picture, all of the evidence and interviews we have, it's pretty obvious that they'd shoot up their school. But when you take the tidbits that their friends and family DID know, it paints a very different picture. Dylan had a pretty normal social life/ friend group, and it seems like Eric had a somewhat normal one, they weren't the typical mega-goth looking kids who would blast Rammstein and KMFDM in an isolated corner of the school and talk to themselves. Did they make violent videos and write violent reports? Yes, they did. But so do lots of teenage boys. I knew lots of kids in high school who were into violent media and blowing things up.

I'm absolutely not saying they were normal kids, but I'm saying that from a parents' or friends' perspective, it might have come as a shock. It helps to know that it might not just be the kid you'd expect.

This is just my opinion off of my observations, though, and this contradicts what other people have said (namely Brooks)
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 12:25 pm

No you’re not wrong. I think they definitely you’re not wrong. I think they definitely Set out is different from the rest of their classmates. By what high school doesn’t have the kids to dress differently and her counter culture so to speak? I don’t know when the change in them happens usually I’m in the mind that it was junior year. I’m not sure what factors came into play with the changes but they had everyone pretty well fooled, so their friends like Robin, Devon and othet kids who say just had classes with them were shocked it was Dylan and some were surprised it was Eric. I think there’s an interview with someone who said when they heard Dylan’s name they said I would take them off the list he would never do anything like that

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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 12:58 pm

I'm not sure that we've learned much...
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 1:36 pm

They werent goth. Goth subculture is very misunderstood. Sure, some People May think that listening to KMFDM or Rammstein makes you goth. But the fact is that goth is a lifestyle, with interest in darker things. Looking at the profile of the two, its obvious that they werent goth. Cause goth simply means that you are into the clothes, music and litterature:
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(Only video I could find that made somewhat sense. Skip to 3:27. Now, it could be that there are goths who are never bullied or picked on, of course. Also I dont think they necessarily have to dress alternative all the time in order to self identity as a goth. But I believe that this can be a starting point if you want to learn more about the subculture. Im pretty positive, nevertheless, that this is Just another misconception that Eric and Dylan were goths. They May have liked certain bands in the industrial scene, but that hardly makes one a goth).

Take it with a grain of salt, as you will get different Answers from different People about what it actually means. Id say, the basics, howewer, are the music, culture, litterature, which started out during the 70s/80s, with bands like Joy Division, the cure, Siouxsie and the banshees and Bauhaus
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 1:51 pm

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like we still have as much bullying as they did back then. Maybe not so much physical bullying, but now with the internet and social media we have cyberbullying as well. I suppose it also depends on the school etc, but from what I have witnessed bullying is still a horrible epidemic.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 2:19 pm

it's now 11:19 PST. I'm feeling somber, thinking about all of the lives that were never lived out because of that day.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 2:32 pm

I feel like we haven't learned much these past 20 years. Yeah, police tactics have changed, and now schools have more security, but there are still schools being shot up (Even though so far that has barely happened this year), and people are always saying blame the gun and all of that shit. Bullying is still a huge issue, which will very likely trigger someone to commit a school shooting. And lastly, there is barely any focus on mental health, cause again, everyone is just blaming the gun in these kind of situations. But yeah, that's just my thoughts.

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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 3:17 pm

Well yeah, lots of people have obviously "learned alot", otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it, but the intellectual few get drowned out by the ignorant screaming, and it's hard for anything in society to progress the way it ought to, with the structure it's in now.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 4:24 pm

School Massacre Archives wrote:
I feel like we haven't learned much these past 20 years. Yeah, police tactics have changed, and now schools have more security, but there are still schools being shot up (Even though so far that has barely happened this year), and people are always saying blame the gun and all of that shit. Bullying is still a huge issue, which will very likely trigger someone to commit a school shooting. And lastly, there is barely any focus on mental health, cause again, everyone is just blaming the gun in these kind of situations. But yeah, that's just my thoughts.

Agreed. As long as people are taking the short route ("ban guns, ban angry music, ban trench coats, ban communist pins on boots, ban luvox, ban potato skins and Dr. Pepper") rather focusing on the actual issue behind this (being mental health and social isolation), things won't change. I don't think there's a way to stop all shootings, but I see so many missed opportunities to really get to these kids that were missed for whatever reason. We need to work to get people out of the mindset where they'd consider shooting up their school.

But, here we are.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 7:12 pm

I'm taking the time to remember everyone on this tragic day.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSat Apr 20, 2019 8:05 pm

School Massacre Archives wrote:
I feel like we haven't learned much these past 20 years. Yeah, police tactics have changed, and now schools have more security, but there are still schools being shot up (Even though so far that has barely happened this year), and people are always saying blame the gun and all of that shit. Bullying is still a huge issue, which will very likely trigger someone to commit a school shooting. And lastly, there is barely any focus on mental health, cause again, everyone is just blaming the gun in these kind of situations. But yeah, that's just my thoughts.

These are my thoughts, as well. There is little to no focus on mental health at all. That's something we should all be talking about. Sure, police enter the building sooner and some schools have metal detectors. But what good is that gonna do if we don't focus on the mental health crisis ongoing in our country?
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSun Apr 21, 2019 4:55 am

I definitely don't think we've learned anything. We still have mass shootings in schools and other places and it always seems to be the same story in the papers; either the person was known to the police or they discovered, after the fact, that the shooters had issues with mental health. I definitely don't think we do enough for people with mental health issues. Now I'm not claiming that everyone with a mental health issue is going to buy a gun and shoot people, but we need to be more careful about who gets hold of the guns because I know in America it's more common for people to have guns for personal safety etc and these are the minority who probably won't ever use them incorrectly. It's such a shame to hear of shootings happening after Columbine especially in schools because you'd think we'd have learnt how to keep students safe in schools.
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PostSubject: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?   20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeSun Apr 21, 2019 8:33 pm

Apparently after a little bit of research these pics were on Pais’s FaceBook page. These were her tattoos. This went far beyond a fandom. She clearly had a lot of mental health issues. I pity her.

Ironically after Columbine everyone kept asking where were the parents, why weren’t they involved in their child’s life, why they didn’t help their child, etc. I’m wondering the same thing here (to be clear, I didn’t feel any negative feelings toward Dylan’s or Eric’s parents. They have to live the fact every day that their child killed other people’s children and then took their own life).


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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeTue Apr 23, 2019 6:22 pm

The media has become better at not publishing names of the perpetrators. Also, I tend to think that maybe we shouldnt focus too much on bullying in cases like these, but thats Just a thought. As Peter Langman says that they arent bullied more or less than others.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeTue Apr 23, 2019 6:29 pm

The Only failure of Dylans parents imo were not to listen to him. I believe thats important. Other than that I dont think there was anything from with them as parents, Judging from what I know. I believe that Sue was like any other mom. The Only failure was not to listen to Dylan and trie to figure out wether something was wrong.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeTue Apr 23, 2019 6:46 pm

I definitely think we should focus on bullying for a number of reasons. Not just because of Mass shootings which are very rare but bullying is a problem in schools. And I do think that it was a factor in why the shooting happened.

There’s way too much evidence saying that there was a bullying problem in the school. nobody can really say how much they were bullied because nobody was around them 24/7. Dr. Langman didn’t go to that school so how could you know? And how does he know how bullying affected the boys? They’re not here to tell us


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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeTue Apr 23, 2019 7:10 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
I definitely think we should focus on bullying  for a number of reasons. Not just because of Mass  shootings which are very rare but bullying is a problem in schools. And I do think that it was a factor in why the shooting happened.

There’s way too much evidence saying that there was a bullying problem in  the school. nobody can really say how much they were bullied because nobody was around them 24/7. Dr. Langman didn’t go to that school so how could you know? And how does he know how bullying affected the boys? They’re not here to tell us


I can recall my school doing Rachel's Challenge, but nothing really changed. I agree that bullying does need to be talked about more in schools. The approach to bullying that I can remember my school taking did very little. Stuff just wasn't reported because if it was then the person you reported would just beat the shit out of you after school. (If they found out you reported them, of course.) And lots of the basketball players got away with things. They didn't get detention because it would mean missing practice or a game. Suspension meant you got kicked off the team. They weren't reprimanded in the same way.

I can remember a kid failing his Literature test and the teacher gave him a second chance to retake it. He was on the team, and if he failed another test it would mean he got kicked. The school wanted people on the sports teams to maintain good grades. This teacher was a big fan of the basketball team. There was a tournament game that night... etc. They got treated special.

I'd say mental health needs focus, too.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeTue Apr 23, 2019 7:16 pm

hvernon wrote:
Screamingophelia wrote:
I definitely think we should focus on bullying  for a number of reasons. Not just because of Mass  shootings which are very rare but bullying is a problem in schools. And I do think that it was a factor in why the shooting happened.

There’s way too much evidence saying that there was a bullying problem in  the school. nobody can really say how much they were bullied because nobody was around them 24/7. Dr. Langman didn’t go to that school so how could you know? And how does he know how bullying affected the boys? They’re not here to tell us


I can recall my school doing Rachel's Challenge, but nothing really changed. I agree that bullying does need to be talked about more in schools. The approach to bullying that I can remember my school taking did very little. Stuff just wasn't reported because if it was then the person you reported would just beat the shit out of you after school. (If they found out you reported them, of course.) And lots of the basketball players got away with things. They didn't get detention because it would mean missing practice or a game. Suspension meant you got kicked off the team. They weren't reprimanded in the same way.

I can remember a kid failing his Literature test and the teacher gave him a second chance to retake it. He was on the team, and if he failed another test it would mean he got kicked. The school wanted people on the sports teams to maintain good grades. This teacher was a big fan of the basketball team. There was a tournament game that night... etc. They got treated special.

I'd say mental health needs focus, too.


Yes!! That’s why I think regardless of what people think of Sue’s motives she’s doing a lot great work

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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeTue Apr 23, 2019 7:43 pm

Honestly? I've learned that Dylan and Eric did the smartest thing ever by ending their lives in 1999. While they shouldn't have took 13 people with them but 20 years since Columbine, I can see why they wanted out of this existence we call life because there's nothing here for any of us, especially those of us who are different but want to be respected, understood. To be honest, despite never knowing them personally, I miss them both because I feel like they were the only two, real indviduals in a world full of fakes. If they liked you, they liked you and if they hated you, they hated you. They weren't afraid to say how shitty the world really is. I wish I had the bravery to end myself the way they ended theirselves. That's just my opinion....and before anyone says it, NO I do not condone what they did.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeTue Apr 23, 2019 7:50 pm

I absolutely agree with you, @Screamingophielia that bullying is a serious problem. Not Just in schools or online , but in the workplace, at home, even in kindergarden. I believe that more schools should have social workers out there. Ive seen some evidence that this can help in reducing the problem, at least as far as schools and kindergarden is concerned. And not Only that but also to work more exstensively with Kids that have a problem with bullying behaviour.

Im Just not 100% sure to what extent the bullying issue is relevant related to school shootings. Im not saying that its not.

But to take one example: A study suggested that school shooters were not more bullied than other students. It also went on to say that 13% of them had participated in bullying, themselves. Also, I think that we should pay attention to the motive as to why mass shootings are carried out.
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PostSubject: Re: 20 years ago Today and what have we learned?    20 years ago Today and what have we learned?  Icon_minitimeWed Apr 24, 2019 9:08 am

There was so much conflated information and confusion too.

On my local news they were saying the boys were wearing swatsikas, black masks and were graduates of CHS.

Then not only were e and d outcasts but Dylan’s mom paid Robyn to go to prom with him...

Now we know how wrong both of those things were. We know Robyn had to convince Dylan to go with her etc..

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