Do you wish they felt pain when they died or not?

Eric was 100% dead first. There's no other way for Dylan to end up face down on top of Eric's leg with Eric's gun under his own leg unless Eric -

1. Sat down in front of a bookshelf with his knees bent towards his chest.
2. Shot himself in the head and his gun flew out of his hand and landed under his leg.
3. He died and his legs dropped on top of the gun that was under him.
4. Dylan shot himself and fell face down on top of Eric's legs.

cakeman - You're convinced that the cafeteria was gonna blow up at 11:35 because of a clock that is set for 9:35. How you come to that conclusion, I really don't know (since Dylan wrote down on his timeline "set bombs for 11:17") but you don't see how Dylan could have seen Eric kill himself when the evidence pretty much proves Eric was dead first?

I think you just like to argue.

If you have some other reasonable explanation as to how Eric ended up with his suicide weapon under his leg and Dylan on top of his leg, I'm all ears. That gun flew under his leg after he was dead.

And actually, I recanted my statement about the shotgun awhile ago when someone pointed out to me that it was a 9MM bullet in Dylan's boot and not a shotgun bullet.

And obviously, their guns were not gonna match. They got all 4 of those guns illegally and bought whatever they could get their hands on. Everyone pretty much already knows that. They couldn't just walk into a store and get custom matching guns like their t-shirts. Come on, now.

Saying I 'just like to argue" is just lame and false. You also seem to take it personally; I wasn't trying to insult you. On the contrary, I was saying others tend to believe what you say. It's interesting that you recanted about the plan for both to commit suicide by shotgun, and I never was sure which kind of bullet it was in Dylan's shoe, so it's interesting if we know it was a 9mm. That makes sense, as above he was more comfortable with the TEC-9 and a double barrel probably isn't fitting in his mouth, and he had already seen several people die from shotgun wounds to the head. There's no reason for Eric's to be particularly surprising and make him change his plans.

I don't think it makes any sense for Dylan to have fallen face down on Eric's legs. That would not explain the blood on Eric's legs or the position of his hat or his body it seems to me. The back of the hat which Dylan used as the front, the part with the Red Sox "B", is facing away from Eric. It seems to me, for that to happen with him falling face down, he would need to have somersaulted. The exit wound with all the blood was on the right side of Dylan's head, not the front of his face. I think he was at a right angle to Eric, facing North as Eric faced West, and fell on to Eric's legs on his right side. That is the side of his exit wound, where the momentum of the bullet would have taken him, and then he bounced off a bit and rolled on to his back, where he expired, hence all that blood underneath him. There would be more blood on Eric's legs than underneath him if that's where he died and was later flipped onto his back by SWAT or whatever. So, I think we simply have to drop that assumption.

Nowhere, ever, did I argue that Eric did not die first. I took it for granted based on his brain being under the molotov cocktail, and the additional point about the gun under his leg and Dylan's blood on top is interesting - though I'm not entirely sure Eric's shotgun wasn't moved, I'm glad to assume it wasn't.  I just said there's no evidence Dylan saw him die (or changed plans as a result). I don't think he was facing him, and that there was some difference between when they were shot means just that - some, i. e. any. It could be fractions of a second. It doesn't need to be several minutes.

Their gun purchases don't seem to be merely whatever they could get at all, and far from obviously so. They had the same shotguns as Doom 1 and Doom 2, and Eric talks endlessly about the AB-10 from the Doom novels, of which the TEC-9 is just another version. That's some real serendipity if that was whatever they could get their hands on. They had several to choose from at the gun show, and seemed to have asked around for a TEC-9. Eric even made fun of the school shooters who just use 22s, which seems more "whatever they can get their hands on".  

I've explained at length how I've come to that conclusion about the bombs. The clock is set to 9:35. It's my avatar. The minute hand is pointed at the 7, not the 9. Nothing happened at 9:35; it's fair to assume the clock was two hours early. Everything else we know also shows it was 11:35. 11:35 is when they stop shooting. That is huge and completely inexplicable on every other interpretation. They said, repeatedly, that the library was going to explode while they were in there. Also huge and completely contradicted by "both bombs failed at 11:17".  Dylan tells Evan he is going to live after 11:35, when before he was telling John to run if he wants to survive and along with Eric saying the library was going to explode. No less than 7 library witnesses say he told John it was because he would die in the bomb blast if he didn't. That's the only thing that makes sense. They could have just avoided shooting him if it was only a shooting spree and they wanted him to live; but if everybody in the library is going to die from an explosion, he needs to run.  Dylan said something about the massacre would be "the most nerve-racking fifteen minutes" of his life - 11:20 (when the first bomb was set to go off, surely, hence they start at 11:19) to 11:35 is 15 minutes. They leave the library at 11:36 to try and make the bomb explode (and only one of them, not the other), not before, not at 11:18.  Expecting to die in the library at 11:35 may also explain why they return there to shoot themselves a half hour later.

There were two bombs. No reason to lose the complexity of two bombs by setting them for the same time. We also know the diversions were set to go off at different times, one by timer and one by motion to kill or injure the responders who came  to it, and the whole "both bombs failed at 11:17 so they gave up on shooting from the parking lot and went to the stairs and started firing as Plan B" makes no sense whatsoever. No witness corroborates this and the stairs where they began solves all the problems that shooting from the parking lot would have (glass would kill them, victims could turn around, no cover from cops coming behind them) and nothing about bombs failing makes one head to the stairs.  Further, changing plans in one minute is absurd and had they really changed plans to shoot everyone, they would have shot in the cafeteria which they planned to be full, not outside which only makes sense if Plan A was still in play. Even Cullen admits with their clocks "setting the bombs to 11:17" is not something they could have done, and amounted to "setting it between 11:15 and 11:20", i. e. on the numbers.  This is not "I just like to argue". This is an attempt at logical inference based on the known facts. It's I just like for nearly two decades  to go "they said the library was going to explode but everybody tells me the bombs had failed already. they said they changed plans in one minute after fantasizing for a year but still shot outside. wtf, something curious here." I just like to reconcile contradictions instead of shrug at them.

I can't understand a word Cakeman dribbles on about. Not one post.

Well, then we'll just agree to disagree. Dylan's hat nor blood could not have gotten on Eric at all unless Eric was dead first because Eric's knees were bent when he shot himself. They did not fall until he was dead. After that, Dylan's blood and hat ended up on Eric along with the smear of blood on Dylan's arm that matches up to the smear on Eric's boot. Blood transfer from Eric's boot got onto Dylan's arm when Dylan landed on Eric's leg. His inner right arm landing on Eric's left boot.

If you look at the suicide photo, Dylan's knees are still kinda bent because of rigor mortis. In my opinion, he was in the kneeling position when they found him and rolled him over. Envision rolling him back over and you'll see exactly where he landed, kinda between Eric's legs. He dropped his tec 9 between his legs and that's why it's underneath of him. He also has a dried line of blood running across his chin and that line of blood could not be achieved if he were laying flat on his back. Gravity doesn't work like that. He was face down with his head slightly tilted when that blood dried on his chin.

The puddle of blood is yes, most likely from the exit wound because again, he was lying face down with his head slightly tilted. The blood poured out of the right side of his head and formed that puddle. When law enforcement rolled him over, the puddle was now underneath of him.

And sorry but I'm not buying that one of them accidentally set a clock for 9:35 instead of 11:35 (if that's what you're even implying). Your whole conclusion about that mess just confuses me so I'm not really gonna discuss that any further. In my opinion, it's pretty clear what happened with the bombs. Dylan wrote it down on the timeline and so I'm gonna stick with what he wrote and not this "what if" someone set the clock wrong", etc.

And yea, it is kinda insulting to imply people just believe what I have to say because why? I own the site? Lol, alright. Or maybe, people just have minds of their own and the ones that agree with me agree because what I'm saying sounds logical to them.

The only thing I want to say is that in the 11k law enforcement says they did flip Dylan over from his stomach to his back. Dylan did not do so on his own. I don't have time to find it right now but if anyone else wants to look it is in there.

When the cops arrived in the library, Dylan was on his stomach.

Jenn wrote:

Well, then we'll just agree to disagree. Dylan's hat nor blood could not have gotten on Eric at all unless Eric was dead first because Eric's knees were bent when he shot himself. They did not fall until he was dead. After that, Dylan's blood and hat ended up on Eric along with the smear of blood on Dylan's arm that matches up to the smear on Eric's boot. Blood transfer from Eric's boot got onto Dylan's arm when Dylan landed on Eric's leg. His inner right arm landing on Eric's left boot.

If you look at the suicide photo, Dylan's knees are still kinda bent because of rigor mortis. In my opinion, he was in the kneeling position when they found him and rolled him over. Envision rolling him back over and you'll see exactly where he landed, kinda between Eric's legs. He dropped his tec 9 between his legs and that's why it's underneath of him. He also has a dried line of blood running across his chin and that line of blood could not be achieved if he were laying flat on his back. Gravity doesn't work like that. He was face down with his head slightly tilted when that blood dried on his chin.

The puddle of blood is yes, most likely from the exit wound because again, he was lying face down with his head slightly tilted. The blood poured out of the right side of his head and formed that puddle. When law enforcement rolled him over, the puddle was now underneath of him.

And sorry but I'm not buying that one of them accidentally set a clock for 9:35 instead of 11:35 (if that's what you're even implying). Your whole conclusion about that mess just confuses me so I'm not really gonna discuss that any further. In my opinion, it's pretty clear what happened with the bombs. Dylan wrote it down on the timeline and so I'm gonna stick with what he wrote and not this "what if" someone set the clock wrong", etc.

And yea, it is kinda insulting to imply people just believe what I have to say because why? I own the site? Lol, alright. Or maybe, people just have minds of their own and the ones that agree with me agree because what I'm saying sounds logical to them.

I don't know where you get that I deny Eric died first. I never did, and explicitly said I think he did. For the third time, the point is Eric died first doesn't tell you how long before. If Eric died .000000000000001 seconds before Dylan did, he died first. If Eric died 10 hours before Dylan did, he still died first.  That's all I said. The point was that it is still possible that Eric died first and Dylan did not see him die. There's no contradiction there.

The blood running out his ear to his chin is a good point, though I still can't get over the large puddle and the hat. I even wonder if that bit came out his mouth and ran into his ear, though I admit it doesn't look like it. It still seems to me like there would be more blood on Eric's leg if Dylan died on it rather than temporarily landed on it. It seems to me that's not how gravity works, to make a huge puddle several inches to the right where the center of his head just happened to be hours later, rather than the blood coming straight down on Eric's legs. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] who is no dummy seemed to agree where we see Dylan is where he died for similar reasons.

I didn't say just because you own the site, though that's part of it, I said because you point out how many things they did that day which matched, and granted that's true at first blush. I meant it as "I can see why people believe that, given Jenn, who is an authority, both in the sense of "runs the forum" and "not a dummy", believed it".  And that was about Dylan planning to use his shotgun before seeing Eric die, which we both don't believe anymore.  It certainly was not intended as insulting, and I've been insulted far worse for just not repeating the same thing everybody has for 20 years, including the post above yours.

And no, I'm saying they completely 100% intentionally set the second bomb for 11:35 and that the clock was 2 hours slow. As is so often the case, no other explanation is given for the clock; I'm just given the incredulous stare for why it was set to 9:35, which seems like a smoking gun to me.  I don't know why this is so difficult. You also literally cannot just go by Dylan's timeline. Dylan wrote two different timelines and both were obviously very rough. Nobody thinks he planted the bombs at 11:09 for instance, that obviously meant "before class lets out at 11:10". Nobody thinks he set the car bombs for 11:18, either. He also wrote 11:16 for the first the bomb on one, and 11:17 on the other. He also clearly says on one of them "Go to outside hill, wait" and "when first bombs go off, attack", both of which seem to support my narrative, that the stairs were plan A, and that the second bomb was set for another time.  Inference based on the facts is what you have to do, not go by an evolving and rough timeline written beforehand.

Lizpuff wrote:

The only thing I want to say is that in the 11k law enforcement says they did flip Dylan over from his stomach to his back.  Dylan did not do so on his own.  I don't have time to find it right now but if anyone else wants to look it is in there.

When the cops arrived in the library, Dylan was on his stomach.

Well if that's true I am most likely wrong about Dylan dying where we see him of course, but I still cannot explain the blood under Dylan's head in the slightest, or the cap. I wonder if they say whether he was on Eric's legs or next to him. Also, Ethan's pretty good with the 11k.

Adzybear wrote:

I can't understand a word Cakeman dribbles on about. Not one post.

Well, it's not complicated. I'll express a few of the reasons in premise-conclusion form for those who are just too smart to get it:

P1) If a bomb was supposed to go off while they were in the library, then both bombs weren't set for 11:17
P2) A bomb was supposed to go off while they were in the library; they said as much
C) Both bombs weren't set for 11:17. (via modus ponens)

To motivate P2, is there another theory that accounts for this other than the absurdity that they were lying? No, not that I've ever heard. This alone is a kill shot for the orthodox story.

P1) If they were telling everybody they were going to die in the library and telling John to run because of a bomb, but then tell Evan he is going to live, then a second bomb failed between these times.
P2) They were telling everybody they were going to die in the library and telling John to run because of a bomb, but then tell Evan he is going to live
C) A second bomb failed between these times. (via modus ponens)

To motivate P1, is there another theory that accounts for this other than their caprice in deciding who lives and dies? No, not that I've ever heard. To motivate P2, not only did they say it several times; not only did Eric tell Bree they would blow up the school; not only does John running only make sense if they thought a bomb was still in play, but 7 library witnesses relay that Dylan said he was telling John to run because of the bomb.

P1) If a bomb was supposed to go off while in the library, and they stop shooting at 11:35 and leave the library at 11:36 to try and make the second bomb go off, then the bomb probably failed at 11:35
P2) A bomb was supposed to go off while in the library, and they stop shooting at 11:35 and leave the library at 11:36 to try and make the second bomb go off.
C) The bomb probably failed at 11:35 (via modus ponens)

To motivate P1, is there another theory that accounts for why they stopped shooting at 11:35 other than caprice? No, not that I've ever heard. It's also downright bizarre to think they tried then but not earlier to make the second bomb explode, and not the first one, but to also think it had failed since 11:17.

P1) If their clocks could not set the bombs for precisely 11:17, but had to set them on the numbers, i. e. at 5 minute intervals, 11:15, 11;20, 11:25, so on, then the first bomb being set to 11:17 means 11:20
P2) They couldn't set the bombs for precisely 11:17, but had to set them on the numbers; Cullen heavily implies as much if he doesn't say it outright.
C) Then the first bomb being set to 11:17 means 11:20 (via modus ponens)

To motivate P1, it makes infinitely more sense that beginning at 11:19 is because it's one minute before the round number of 11:20, than two minutes after a prime number like 11:17 (not all their notes even say 11:17 for when to set them).  Dylan said something would take 15 minutes. 11:20 to 11:35 is 15 minutes, and again you'll not find any other even partially satisfying theory for why he said this.

P1) If they had moved on to "Plan B" of "screw the bombs, shoot everyone you can", then they would have started shooting in the full cafeteria, not outside.
P2) They started shooting outside
P3) They had not moved on to Plan B (via modus tollens)

To motivate P1, makes no sense unless they were expecting the bombs to bring those in the cafeteria outside, and is another reason why 11:20 makes more sense.

P1) If they started shooting because the bombs failed, then Dylan would not have needed to check on the bombs to see they had failed; they would have already known that.
P2) Dylan does check on the bombs to see they had failled
C) They did not start because the bombs failed (via modus tollens)

P1) If no witness has them wait by their cars, then they probably never waited by their cars
P2) No witness has them wait by their cars (on the contrary, they have Eric waiting up on the stairs)
C) They probably never waited by their cars (via modus ponens)

Krabbe makes the same inference; they never waited by the cars.

P1) If a plan results in them dying from glass hitting them in the face, their victims running away from them if the victims turn around, and cops shooting them in the back of the head, then that probably was not their plan.
P2) Shooting from parking lot result in them dying from glass hitting them in the face, their victims running away from them if they turn around, and cops shooting them in the back of the head
C) Shooting from the parking lot probably was not their plan (via modus ponens)

Witnesses have them heading straight for the stairs anyway, which solves all of these problems. No glass hitting them, just go back up the stairs and enter the school when victims turn around (which they did), and have one stay up on the stairs to cover the back of the other from cops, as Eric did. Nothing about bombs failing entails heading to the stairs rather than the parking lot. From the parking lot was a much further shot than the bottom of the stairs, too.

All of those inferences are valid (the point of the citing inference rules with 'via'), meaning if one wants to deny the conclusions one has to tell me which of the premises are false and why, or they can just pout and call me stupid. It more than sounds logical; it is logical.