Unpopular opinion on the van incident?

I’m currently reading Jeff Kass’s book and when trying to diagnose Eric as a psychopath, he brings up that Eric tried to put all the blame on Dylan for the van incident by saying it was his idea. Whenever I hear about that anywhere, especially when it’s used to suggest Eric was a psychopath, it irritates me because I really do think he was telling the truth.

One reason why is because I really doubt they both suddenly said “let’s break into the van” at the exact same time. One of them had to have had the idea first and suggest it to the other, which fits with Dylan’s story too. Dylan said they had the idea at “almost the same time.” I think Dylan got the idea first, suggested it to Eric, and a minute or two later, like he said in his statement, he agreed. If that happened, neither of them would have been lying. They technically did have the idea (or agree to the idea) at “almost” the same time like Dylan said, but it was also Dylan’s idea first like Eric said.

The way they explained what happened also makes sense. If it was Dylan’s idea first, he wouldn’t want to admit it and would want to try to lessen the blame on himself by saying they both got the idea around the same time, which wouldn’t have really been a lie. Eric wanted to lessen the blame on himself too so he said it was Dylan’s idea first, which also wouldn’t have been a lie.

I don’t know why some people think that makes Eric a psychopath, but not Dylan. They both did the same exact thing and after they were caught, they both tried to lesson the blame on themselves. Neither of them actually lied about it either. It doesn’t make either of them a psychopath and I don’t get why it’s always used to diagnose Eric as one.

Anyone agree?

kblu wrote:

Anyone agree?

100% agree. Even assessing their personalities suggests that Dylan had the idea first. Eric was the more uptight, controlled, think things through and plan it out one. Dylan was the combustible, emotional, maybe even hyper one so it's completely believable to me that Dylan had the idea first. But even if it was Eric's idea, lying about it doesn't make him a psychopath. This is tantamount to saying that everybody who lies about something to get in less trouble is a psychopath. Well, then count me in because I did that when I was younger, too. And probably just about anyone I've ever known has done it, too. In my opinion, if you want to argue the psychopath angle for Eric there are far stronger things to base your belief on than this.

I also think it's ridiculous that Fuselier (yes, it's in Cullen's book but the idea came from Fuselier because I've seen interviews in which he speaks of it) classifies Eric as a psychopath because he wrote a seemingly sincere apology letter for Diversion to the van break- in victim, but then wrote in his journal that he wasn't sorry at all.
Ummmm, he HAD to write a letter as part of his Diversion requirements. He wouldn't have gotten out of the program without it! Was he supposed to write something to the effect of "sorry, not sorry" and expect to get away with that? So stupid.
Also, Dylan had to write an apology letter, too, and both Tom and Sue said he wasn't sorry about the van break-in, he was mad he got caught, and that he didn't think it was that big of a deal. Dylan himself wrote in his journal that his revenge for January's incident (presumably the arrest) would be God-like and complained about Deputy Walsh and being arrested in the Basement Tapes. Yet no one makes one peep about this being psychopathy on his part.

This is why I'm just not sold on this whole characterization of Eric. They (Fuselier and others) have done this for numerous things. If both boys had the same actions but you only apply the psychopath label to one of the boys for those actions, it loses all credibility.

kblu wrote:

Anyone agree?

It's an interesting theory. However, Eric seems to have committed this crime in a more methodical and calculating manner than Dylan. It seems that Dylan thought up the idea on a whim, while Eric hesitated, clearly uncertain that they would get away with the crime (hence his decision to act as the get-away, to avoid possible detection from passing cars). I believe it's possible that both thought of committing the crime at the same time. After all, I am certain both boys wanted some diversion and fun that Friday night, so burglary seemed an exciting thrill. However, Eric, it seems, doesn't care for improvisation or spur-of-moment decisions. I imagine that is why Eric wasn't gung-ho on the idea when Dylan suggested. This crime suggests that Eric was able to control some of his impulses.

jada887 wrote:

However, Eric, it seems, doesn't care for improvisation or spur-of-moment decisions. I imagine that is why Eric wasn't gung-ho on the idea when Dylan suggested. This crime suggests that Eric was able to control some of his impulses.

Agreed.
In both of their statements, it is clear that Dylan actually did the breaking of the van window and Dylan removed all the objects from the van. They say that first they tried to break the window with a fist. Dylan says he hit it "like 4 times & then Eric tried a couple of times," and Eric said he hit the window one time. They looked for the rock together but Dylan is the one who found it and Dylan is the one who broke the window with it. Eric didn't use the rock; again he played "lookout." Eric is just as guilty because he agreed to the burglary, tried to break the window, didn't stop Dylan from breaking the window and removing items from the van, and he left the scene with the items in his car. But his actions don't demonstrate the impulsivity or poor behavioral controls that one would expect from a psychopath in this instance.

thelmar wrote:

jada887 wrote:

However, Eric, it seems, doesn't care for improvisation or spur-of-moment decisions. I imagine that is why Eric wasn't gung-ho on the idea when Dylan suggested. This crime suggests that Eric was able to control some of his impulses.

Agreed.
In both of their statements, it is clear that Dylan actually did the breaking of the van window and Dylan removed all the objects from the van. They say that first they tried to break the window with a fist. Dylan says he hit it "like 4 times & then Eric tried a couple of times," and Eric said he hit the window one time. They looked for the rock together but Dylan is the one who found it and Dylan is the one who broke the window with it. Eric didn't use the rock; again he played "lookout." Eric is just as guilty because he agreed to the burglary, tried to break the window, didn't stop Dylan from breaking the window and removing items from the van, and he left the scene with the items in his car. But his actions don't demonstrate the impulsivity or poor behavioral controls that one would expect from a psychopath in this instance.  

I always found it funny how they thought they could break the window by punching it with their fists lmao.

kblu wrote:

The way they explained what happened also makes sense. If it was Dylan’s idea first, he wouldn’t want to admit it and would want to try to lessen the blame on himself by saying they both got the idea around the same time, which wouldn’t have really been a lie. Eric wanted to lessen the blame on himself too so he said it was Dylan’s idea first, which also wouldn’t have been a lie.

I don’t know why some people think that makes Eric a psychopath, but not Dylan. They both did the same exact thing and after they were caught, they both tried to lesson the blame on themselves. Neither of them actually lied about it either. It doesn’t make either of them a psychopath and I don’t get why it’s always used to diagnose Eric as one.

Anyone agree?

Yes, I've thought the same. Whether they were lying or not, if it was Dylan's idea, it makes sense for him to mitigate blame by saying it was both of their idea, and for Eric to say it was Dylan's idea. Also, not sure if he knew, but you think if it wasn't Dylan's idea this would've been a sore spot for him for Eric to say that.

And indeed Dylan was as twisted if not more so, just read his entry about how the massacre is in 26 hours and everyone needs to pay. The main point to say Eric was a psychopath is the van apology more so than blaming Dylan, though I'm sure some have cited that as well.

thelmar wrote:

But his actions don't demonstrate the impulsivity or poor behavioral controls that one would expect from a psychopath in this instance.  

Well, psychopaths are both calculating and impulsive; it depends on the situation. If the stakes are high enough, and the payoff low at the moment, they might return to the pursuit later on, when the timing is right. That's calculation. However, they are also impulsive in that they want what they want now and will not stop in their pursuit. That's what makes high-functioning psychopathy in individuals so dangerous. They always are on the look-out for opportunities and will delay gratification until they get what they want. Poor behavioral controls, on the other hand, refer to impatience and irritability. As I've pointed out in another thread, Eric and Dylan both displayed poor behavioral controls in everyday life, so that personality trait is not exclusive to Eric. However, in this scenario, Eric probably got impatient when he said, "All right, that's enough," to Dylan after 10 minutes into the burglary. That's just my opinion based on what I've read in Eric's testimony.

jada887 wrote:

thelmar wrote:

But his actions don't demonstrate the impulsivity or poor behavioral controls that one would expect from a psychopath in this instance.  

Well, psychopaths are both calculating and impulsive; it depends on the situation. If the stakes are high enough, and the payoff low at the moment, they might return to the pursuit later on, when the timing is right. That's calculation. However, they are also impulsive in that they want what they want now and will not stop in their pursuit. That's what makes high-functioning psychopathy in individuals so dangerous. They always are on the look-out for opportunities and will delay gratification until they get what they want. Poor behavioral controls, on the other hand, refer to impatience and irritability. As I've pointed out in another thread, Eric and Dylan both displayed poor behavioral controls in everyday life, so that personality trait is not exclusive to Eric. However, in this scenario, Eric probably got impatient when he said, "All right, that's enough," to Dylan after 10 minutes into the burglary. That's just my opinion based on what I've read in Eric's testimony.

Eric never said that. It's not in any police report, not in either of their statements. Cullen wrote that Eric said it and he has no proof of that whatsoever.

thelmar wrote:

Eric never said that. It's not in any police report, not in either of their statements. Cullen wrote that Eric said it and he has no proof of that whatsoever.

I apologize for leading you on a wild goose chase here. Eric wrote about that in a written assignment to T-dog (Mr. Tonelli) in his government class. It's on page 26,778 in the Columbine document:

So we got a rather large rock, broke the window and Dylan started removing items from the van while I waited in my car keeping a lookout for incoming cars. After about 10 minutes I said, "that's enough, let's go."

kblu wrote:

thelmar wrote:

jada887 wrote:

However, Eric, it seems, doesn't care for improvisation or spur-of-moment decisions. I imagine that is why Eric wasn't gung-ho on the idea when Dylan suggested. This crime suggests that Eric was able to control some of his impulses.

Agreed.
In both of their statements, it is clear that Dylan actually did the breaking of the van window and Dylan removed all the objects from the van. They say that first they tried to break the window with a fist. Dylan says he hit it "like 4 times & then Eric tried a couple of times," and Eric said he hit the window one time. They looked for the rock together but Dylan is the one who found it and Dylan is the one who broke the window with it. Eric didn't use the rock; again he played "lookout." Eric is just as guilty because he agreed to the burglary, tried to break the window, didn't stop Dylan from breaking the window and removing items from the van, and he left the scene with the items in his car. But his actions don't demonstrate the impulsivity or poor behavioral controls that one would expect from a psychopath in this instance.  

I always found it funny how they thought they could break the window by punching it with their fists lmao.

Unironically speaking, they must've been watching too many movies.

jada887 wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Eric never said that. It's not in any police report, not in either of their statements. Cullen wrote that Eric said it and he has no proof of that whatsoever.

I apologize for leading you on a wild goose chase here. Eric wrote about that in a written assignment to T-dog (Mr. Tonelli) in his government class. It's on page 26,778 in the Columbine document:

So we got a rather large rock, broke the window and Dylan started removing items from the van while I waited in my car keeping a lookout for incoming cars. After about 10 minutes I said, "that's enough, let's go."

Thank you! I have searched unsuccessfully for that quote for a very long time!

Has anyone seen Dylan's apology letter? I don't remember seeing it amongst his Diversion documents. His time management essay and the essay on the ISAE class are there but not the apology. Sanchez mentions reviewing the outline for it with Dylan at his first Diversion appointment and then mentions at his next one that he wrote it and together they made some revisions. But after that I don't recall any mention of it and I can't find the actual letter anywhere.

Another thing that is not factored into this is the possible trouble Eric would be in at home. Makes sense that he would try to mitigate his involvement in fear of his parents/father.

thelmar wrote:

jada887 wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Eric never said that. It's not in any police report, not in either of their statements. Cullen wrote that Eric said it and he has no proof of that whatsoever.

I apologize for leading you on a wild goose chase here. Eric wrote about that in a written assignment to T-dog (Mr. Tonelli) in his government class. It's on page 26,778 in the Columbine document:

So we got a rather large rock, broke the window and Dylan started removing items from the van while I waited in my car keeping a lookout for incoming cars. After about 10 minutes I said, "that's enough, let's go."

Thank you! I have searched unsuccessfully for that quote for a very long time!

Has anyone seen Dylan's apology letter? I don't remember seeing it amongst his Diversion documents. His time management essay and the essay on the ISAE class are there but not the apology. Sanchez mentions reviewing the outline for it with Dylan at his first Diversion appointment and then mentions at his next one that he wrote it and together they made some revisions. But after that I don't recall any mention of it and I can't find the actual letter anywhere.

I have never seen it either! It's weird that it would not have been released.

I imagine it was sarcastic... but that's just me.