The Downward Spiral & Dylan's Mind

After rereading Dylan's and Eric's journals, in which both made reference to NIN's music. It struck me how deeply the music in the band's concept album "The Downward Spiral" resonated with Dylan. (For those who aren't familiar with this album, it's about man's descent into madness and eventual suicide.) Dylan's symbol for TDS appear repeatedly in his journal... In relistening to some of the old tunes it really is uncanny to see the parallels between Dylan's thought process and the antagonist in the songs.

Also, in Eric's infamous journal entry for sometime in November 1998, where he's rambling on about wanting to have violent sex with co-workers and girls in his gym class, it turns into talk of violence and torture...within one sentence. He goes on to reference a NIN music video for "Broken" or "Closer", where someone is tortured like hell. Now, I always assumed that it was Trent's bondage clips from "Closer" that he was referring to. However, I think that's not correct and Eric is actually talking about the banned NIN video for "Happiness In Slavery". It's far more disturbing and indeed, is full of grotesque mutilation and torture. Disturbing stuff, more in synch with the graphic descriptions Eric goes on to discuss.

Now, don't get me wrong... I am not in anyway blaming music, videos or video games for the fact that that some kids decide to carry out violent acts that include murder. But this music was something that Dylan could relate to and that excited Eric. For some of us, the validation that dark music bring can actually be comforting. I just find it interesting that the musician that took the most heat after was Marilyn Manson, who was only mentioned in passing and happened to be one of the numerous posters on Dylan's wall.

Has anyone gone back and listed to this album with Dylan's journals in mind? Any thoughts?

I am actually reading a book about the album The Downward Spiral and it’s cultural impact and there is a whole chapter in there dedicated to Columbine. I briefly looked ahead as I haven’t made it that far yet and it talks a lot about Dylan and his references to the album. I have always loved Nine Inch Nails and was struck by how Dylan would write to Hurt and Piggy which I used to journal to as well.

It can be a fine line between comfort in dark music, listening and knowing you are not alone, but it is also easy to stay down in the ground when you surround yourself with dark material.

The albums concepts fit Dylan’s own self destructive path and loss of self. I feel like he references a lot of hope though, just not for this life. Rather he saw hope in the halcyon after death.

I think listening back I feel like the song Eraser fits Dylan’s thoughts really well.

Dylan also really liked the Smashing Pumpkins and referenced their lyrics in his day planner a lot. Most of them being from Disarm and the “Melancholy” album. For some reason though listening to their album Adore gives me huge Dylan vibes, but I am not sure if he ever listened to that one as it is not referenced by him. A lot of the lyrics and sounds have a more desolate yet dreamy quality that I feel fits some of his writings as well.

Intothenever wrote:

Dylan also really liked the Smashing Pumpkins and referenced their lyrics in his day planner a lot. Most of them being from Disarm and the “Melancholy” album. For some reason though listening to their album Adore gives me huge Dylan vibes, but I am not sure if he ever listened to that one as it is not referenced by him. A lot of the lyrics and sounds have a more desolate yet dreamy quality that I feel fits some of his writings as well.

Thank you for the insightful comments. I had no idea there was a book on The Downward Spiral, in spite of being a NIN fan. What's it called, if you don't mind my asking?

The album does create a specific mood and becomes darker as you move through the songs. By the time you hit the title track...it feels a bit like being trapped in a nightmare that you continue cycling through. I can see someone being sucked down into clothes void, when spending too much time there. Listening, I mean. I think that's probably the part that Dylan could relate to. Anyone who's tasted that level of despair can probably understand how horrific it would be to continually exist there. In the end, I think that was part of Dylan's undoing. Someone else with different wiring might not be affected the same way.

The title of the book is actually my user name haha. Into the Never.

Yeah, I relate to him a lot in that aspect. People can look at you and your life and see all of the good you have in it and a future and yet all you see is another day in pain and wearing a mask. He was pretty closed off about his feelings except I believe with Zack. I wonder how much of himself he shared with Eric aside from rage. I wonder if he had been able to open up to someone if that would have helped. Maybe not. Even though I relate to him heavily, I can’t fathom what actually brought him and Eric to that actual day and what kind of mindset that requires.

Intothenever wrote:

The title of the book is actually my user name haha. Into the Never.

Yeah, I relate to him a lot in that aspect. People can look at you and your life and see all of the good you have in it and a future and yet all you see is another day in pain and wearing a mask. He was pretty closed off about his feelings except I believe with Zack. I wonder how much of himself he shared with Eric aside from rage. I wonder if he had been able to open up to someone if that would have helped. Maybe not. Even though I relate to him heavily, I can’t fathom what actually brought him and Eric to that actual day and what kind of mindset that requires.

Yeah, I hear you on that -the hiding deep depression under a smile thing. Some people become very skillful at hiding their suffering. It's easy to convince yourself that everyone will run in the opposite direction if they find out, look at you differently, make you feel weak...or guilty because you're bringing them down.

As for Dylan, I do think he shared a lot with Eric, but likely not everything. I doubt Dylan shared thoughts on this true love he thought he was going to find in death. The dynamic between the two of them does fascinate me, though. The age old question of leader/follower, how much they did discuss... If there were second thoughts when they were planning? This is one of the reasons why I would like to see the Basement Tapes. I want to watch how they interact and how Eric is different when filming himself alone...

Thank you for the info on the book. I think I'll give it a read.

I think a lot of it is definitely feeling like you bring people down. Or a complete lack of understanding when you share your thoughts. It’s a truly tough thing.

My thoughts on their dynamic has changed so much over the years. I do think Dylan brought up the idea and Eric took the planning reigns. I wonder as well if they both had second thoughts but didn’t want to back out on the other. I wonder if one of them voiced second thoughts if they would have let it go. Or maybe they didn’t at all. From how the basement tapes were described I feel like Eric may have. He seemed more worried about how he would affect others and it is said he even teared up on film when speaking of being dead in a couple weeks or about his friends back east.

I started out viewing it pretty black and white. Eric wanted to kill and Dylan wanted to die, but now I see so much gray in their dynamic. It really is truly interesting. I would love to see the tapes!

I wanted to mention as well, I approach depression from a female existence. I can only imagine what it is like as a male. Especially back then. It would definitely probably be seen more as a sign of weakness and less likely to be shared and talked about.

I do wonder why sometimes that Dylan was adamant about not needing counseling after the van incident. At first it seems like at that point he was too far gone and wanted to stay down in the dark and didn’t want to found out, but at the same time he was taking St Johns Wort which to me indicates that he wanted to try to be and feel better. There are just so many things to think about.

Intothenever wrote:

I wanted to mention as well, I approach depression from a female existence. I can only imagine what it is like as a male. Especially back then. It would definitely probably be seen more as a sign of weakness and less likely to be shared and talked about.

I do wonder why sometimes that Dylan was adamant about not needing counseling after the van incident. At first it seems like at that point he was too far gone and wanted to stay down in the dark and didn’t want to found out, but at the same time he was taking St Johns Wort which to me indicates that he wanted to try to be and feel better. There are just so many things to think about.

Is it okay to PM you? Not sure everyone wants to hear my opinions. Lol

Absolutely! I feel like we would have some good conversations haha.

The Downward Spiral definitely fits with Dylans thoughts. The self-titled song does remind me of Dylans suicide and probably what he was feeling before he pulled the trigger.

Intothenever wrote:

At the same time he was taking St Johns Wort which to me indicates that he wanted to try to be and feel better.

Disagree. There are a lot of people suffering from various mental illnesses that will purposely self sabotage or only half heartedly comply with treatment, using the failure of said treatment as further justification for self destructive behavior (or in extreme cases, suicide and murder suicide). The same period of time Dylan was taking St John's Wort was the same period he was still drinking and making bombs with Eric.