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 What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?

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Arendelle



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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:36 am

I think Columbine was caused as a product of the worst in society. You've got two kids who can't live up to the expectations some set for them, with constant rejection at their heels, whose interests label them apart from others their age - not to mention budding rage, lack of coping skills, and possible mental illnesses. You have parents who didn't bother to keep these two apart even after the January Incident of 1998, and never searched their rooms. You have friends and faculty and police who never took signs of the attack seriously. A huge, huge coincidence of warning signs being glanced over or causing heads to turn the other way; a tornado of circumstances and chances that led to two boys coming together and deciding that this was their fate, this was how they were going to leave an indelible imprint on human history. And even more chance that they managed to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jul 06, 2014 12:00 pm

How someone can says that Columbine was caused because of sadism ?

Tell me one sadist serial killer who was suicidal :-)



Do you know what says Elliot Rodger in his manifesto ?



" I am not part of the human race. Humanity has rejected me. The females of the human species have never wanted to mate with me, so how could I possibly consider myself part of humanity? Humanity has never accepted me among them, and now I know why. I am more than human. I am superior to them all.
I am Elliot Rodger…"




"If you feel as if the whole world is against you, it makes it easier to start attacking random individuals – and then kill yourself.
Dr Lankford is professor of criminal justice studies at the University of Alabama"



Eric Harris "EVERYONE IS MAKING FUN OF ME" , He says EVERYONE - Yes he was bullied and bullying creates social anxiety = social anxiety makes you paranoid ...


Bree Pasquale "It was all because people were mean to them last year"


And i do not get people who believe that everything in Eric's diary is the truth .. He wrote it only for "efect" , he wanted look "badass"


For example " “I want to kill everyone except about 5 people.”"

"there are probably about 100 people max in the school alone
who I don’t want to die, the rest, MUST FUCKING DIE!”"


Eric got what he wanted ... he fooled everoyne with his diary , he wanted look like "powerfull rebel without emphaty"


REAL Eric Harris was probably shaking suicidal kid , who hated himself, who felt rejected.


I think moving to Denver was the big factor in his life ... "I wanna kill everyone in Denver"


He hated this place ..



HE WAS NOT A PSYCHOPATH

-He cared for animals
-He blamed himself "dont blame friends"
- Tell me one psychopath who commited a suicide
- One girl called him to go hangoug , he declined it because his parents were not at home and he did not wanted make them angry
-He was crying on one tape
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:52 pm


Are you saying that E &D's parents were neglectful?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think Columbine was caused as a product of the worst in society. You've got two kids who can't live up to the expectations some set for them, with constant rejection at their heels, whose interests label them apart from others their age - not to mention budding rage, lack of coping skills, and possible mental illnesses. You have parents who didn't bother to keep these two apart even after the January Incident of 1998, and never searched their rooms. You have friends and faculty and police who never took signs of the attack seriously. A huge, huge coincidence of warning signs being glanced over or causing heads to turn the other way; a tornado of circumstances and chances that led to two boys coming together and deciding that this was their fate, this was how they were going to leave an indelible imprint on human history. And even more chance that they managed to do it.
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Arendelle



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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:14 pm

No, I wasn't trying to imply they were neglectful, just that they didn't keep E & D apart after getting into a criminal act together and that their rooms weren't searched. If anyone was neglectful it was the police. But not the parents; they couldn't have seen this coming unless they got ahold of the boy's notebooks or seen their weapons.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:48 pm

It would have taken some drastic measures to break up E &D's friendship at that time. They went to school together,worked together,were old enough to drive.Should their parents have done that knowing what they knew at the time?

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sun Jul 06, 2014 11:54 pm

The parents also committed mistakes like not be enough close to them to knew what was going on, the same with the search of the rooms. But many parents are like that, they dont see a reason to search the room of their teenage boy, if they dont start to suspect that something weird is going on (there are exceptions but are very few) and Eric and Dylan could hide everything very well and they didnt make their parents to suspect anything, Eric's father did a bit more and knew more about what he had in home but is probable that he didnt feel the need to search Eric's room because he could thought that his behaviour was normal or not something very serious. Parents just dont think that they are gonna find guns in their kids rooms and less at that time. Eric and Dylan fooled them like they did with everyone and even if their parents kept them apart , they would still hang out together anyway because teenagers are very rebel and dont care.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:23 am

Exactly; even if they had attempted to do so, I don't think Eric and Dylan could really be kept apart. For example, I'd gotten into theft last year with a friend; we eventually went to juvenile court together. My parents wanted me to be kept apart from this guy, but we had several classes together, so it was nigh impossible to restrict contact between each other (though we're only Sophomores). Of course, once I became homeschooled, that's a different story...

But anyhow. Unless Tom, Sue, Wayne, and Kathy all got together and decided to severely curb their children's actions (which I don't see occurring, esp. since the Klebold's seemed to be very liberal-type parents), to the point where E&D were under heavy monitoring...despite my suggestion earlier, I doubt they'd stay apart. Those two were conjoined at the hip.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:14 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


HE WAS NOT A PSYCHOPATH

-He cared for animals
-He blamed himself "dont blame friends"
- Tell me one psychopath who commited a  suicide
- One girl called him to go hangoug , he declined it because his parents were not at home and he  did not wanted  make them angry
-He was crying on one tape

None of Hare, Fuselier, Langmann, or Cullen claim that psychopathy precludes all other affects in all situations.

Cullen: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

In his account of Eric's childhood, Cullen describes "A sports enthusiast hanging out with minorities" (p. 112), who is "painfully shy," "timid but popular," (p. 113), "treasured his own tranquility" and "serenity" (p. 114) and "loved the water" (p. 115). He is not "thrilled with his looks" but "attended football games, , dances, and variety shows" and is a "big time fan" of sports. Cullen argues that "two months into high school" Eric begins "breaking through his shell" (p. 134) and while "Sophomore year, the changes began to show" (p. 146), even in the days before the massacre he is "nice" to Susan (p. 118) and shows other good traits, apologizing to the Black Jack crew and lamenting how much me will miss Bob, his boss (p. 332).
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:19 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


HE WAS NOT A PSYCHOPATH

-He cared for animals
-He blamed himself "dont blame friends"
- Tell me one psychopath who commited a  suicide
- One girl called him to go hangoug , he declined it because his parents were not at home and he  did not wanted  make them angry
-He was crying on one tape

None of Hare, Fuselier, Langmann, or Cullen claim that psychopathy precludes all other affects in all situations.

Cullen: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

In his  account of Eric's childhood, Cullen describes "A sports enthusiast hanging out with minorities" (p. 112), who is "painfully shy," "timid but popular," (p. 113), "treasured his own tranquility" and "serenity" (p. 114) and "loved the water" (p. 115). He is not "thrilled with his looks" but "attended football games, , dances, and variety shows" and is a "big time fan" of sports. Cullen argues that "two months into high school" Eric begins "breaking through his shell" (p. 134) and while "Sophomore year, the changes began to show" (p. 146), even in the days before the massacre he is "nice" to Susan (p. 118) and shows other good traits, apologizing to the Black Jack crew and lamenting how much me will miss Bob, his boss (p. 332).
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PostSubject: I am not eloquent so I apologise   Mon Oct 17, 2016 1:57 pm

It's complex and I have answered that many factors play into why Columbine happened...Such as had they been to another school or landed in good situations would they be okay? The thing is, is there a clear difference between Eric and Dylan's disorders? Such as for Dylan, I think it is hereditary, I know his mother Sue has some issues of her own, she admitted it herself in her book and I think even Jeff Kass too so, Dylan might've gotten some of his mental instability through her. I don't know if Eric's parents have any problems of their own and there's no way we will but for Eric, he always saw red, anger problems perhaps, possibly his upbringing, after which taking medication might've added more fuel to the fire, but Eric was nothing like Dylan. Now, I think both of them had a pretty good and average life. I don't think they had been abused in any way at all.

So in a way, Dylan was actually slightly mentally unstable as compared to Eric who, had a poor tolerance of his problems/failure/anger?

It's like a venn diagram and their years in Columbine is the big main circle while Eric and Dylan's own issues are the two separate ones and then combined which resulted in murder/suicide.


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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Oct 17, 2016 6:18 pm

I'm still very confused and amazed at the fact that the parents of a teenage boy ticked "suicidal thoughts" knowing that boys at that age, especially Eric, try to avoid showing emotions. I'm just imagining him throwing fits: crying and threatening suicide because else I can't understand how that could happen. In my opinion we barely have anything regarding their personalities and happenings in their daily lives. Just quotes here and there, very small in number. A page of a few 'accounts' don't picture a person as a whole. I love it when people fall for some 'accounts' especially on Tumblr. Had some people completely eat up some stories 'a girl' who says she talked to them and said especially Dylan talked about 'love and society'. I mean come on, everyone talks about these things, GIVE US SPECIFIC INTERACTIONS, not general bullshit. (/rant over).

Even though Eric gave a tough man impression I can't help but think he was openly suicidal to some people and it's sad we don't have much info about this probable part of him. I somewhat believe the accounts of the girl who went out (don't remember her name) with him and said she had to talk him out of suicide.

And no, unlike some, I don't blame his parents for not reacting to his behavior because I lived with a troubled person and you're put in an incredibly difficult position, especially concerning a family member. It's easy to point fingers when the rabbit's out of the hat but trust me, when you're cloaked in uncertainty and can't possibly imagine that person could do bad things on such a massive scale, you've no idea what could happen next. You're confronted with choosing between taking action and end up like an overreacting freak who could ruin that persons' or your future in many ways (socially, economically) or hoping that it's not that bad, try to work it out and having that blow up in your face.


Edit: It's completely off-topic but man stuff like this makes me mad. It wasn't goddamn Dylan who went 'la da da" around the end of the Dykeman Morning Ride, it was most likely Nate or someone else, jesus christ I want to punch a baby right now cause even respected Columbine blogs fall for it. I know people on here don't make these silly confusions but I had to release some steam somewhere. Pls don't ban me ;^)
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Oct 17, 2016 10:39 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I'm still very confused and amazed at the fact that the parents of a teenage boy ticked "suicidal thoughts" knowing that boys at that age, especially Eric, try to avoid showing emotions. I'm just imagining him throwing fits: crying and threatening suicide because else I can't understand how that could happen. In my opinion we barely have anything regarding their personalities and happenings in their daily lives. Just quotes here and there, very small in number. A page of a few 'accounts' don't picture a person as a whole. I love it when people fall for some 'accounts' especially on Tumblr. Had some people completely eat up some stories 'a girl' who says she talked to them and said especially Dylan talked about 'love and society'. I mean come on, everyone talks about these things, GIVE US SPECIFIC INTERACTIONS, not general bullshit. (/rant over).

Even though Eric gave a tough man impression I can't help but think he was openly suicidal to some people and it's sad we don't have much info about this probable part of him. I somewhat believe the accounts of the girl who went out (don't remember her name) with him and said she had to talk him out of suicide.
On page 17 you can see that Eric's parents were able to indicate the items on the psychological checklist because he mentioned them to the psychologist he saw after the van incident. They said that this is what led to him being prescribed antidepressants.

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I don't get the impression that Eric discussed his feelings with his parents very often and he doesn't seem like the type to have had crying fits or threaten suicide, especially in front of his parents.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:47 pm

I believe Eric's parents were at least aware of his anger issues. And the main reason I think that is b/c of Sue mentioning him freaking out at Dylan after that soccer game, and how his parents were quick to react and knew how to calm him down. And he was like 15 then. So I think they probably saw this more than once prior to that, if not somewhat often.

I know when they met with the Mausers they claimed the only time they recalled Eric reacting violently in front of them was when he slammed his fist into a wall, but I honestly feel like they saw much more than just that and were aware that he had a short fuse. This doesn't mean I blame them at all for what Eric did, more than likely they chalked it up to teenage hormones and figured he'd grow out of it. People back then didn't think their kid's anger issues would result in mass murder.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:18 am

Another thing, and I know everyone particularly the media likes to blame the music, movies and video games for violence among teenagers, but I feel that Dylan was actually deeply influenced by his preferences in the pop culture of that time. His obsession with Natural Born Killers, emulating Mickey and wanting his own Mallory-esque partner to go on a killing spree with. He mentioned in his journals something about girls he was attracted to being "pure"... I don't remember how it's written exactly off the top of my head, but some people seemed confused by what that meant. Sometimes I wonder if that was influenced by Nine Inch Nails lyrics. Several of their songs make reference to "purity" or being "pure/impure", and it's possible he identified with it or like the way it sounded when describing things in his own writing. Shooting his gun sideways like all the badasses in the movies... I've thought of other examples to support this opinion but I can't think of them right now.

Even though columbine happened nearly 20 years ago and that E&D would be in their mid 30s now, I still forget that they were just teenagers when they did this.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Oct 18, 2016 12:39 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Ive seen lots of opinions in this board about the massacre and Eric and Dylan personalities and problems but I would like to know what you guys think that caused everything?

The problem I have with insiders' accounts of the tragedy is that these supposed "insiders" tend to project their own biases and life experiences onto the killers and the school. That's a common logical fallacy. But I don't necessarily blame the insiders. Eric and Dylan were very secretive people, and I doubt insiders had the ability interpret what they were seeing.

Having said that, I think there might be no single cause for Columbine. I know it's not too difficult to believe, but it's difficult to conceptualize in our own minds. We often want to see pretty patterns and cause and effect tables. But the truth is much, much more incongruent, disoriented.

Eric and Dylan were not insane, nor were they disturbed. If I could blame psychosis and violent video games, I don't think this forum could survive for very long. I think the best question to ask is, "How?" I think how gets us closer to understanding and closure.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Oct 18, 2016 1:07 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
How someone can says that Columbine was caused because  of sadism ?

Tell me one sadist serial killer who was suicidal  Smile

Although it's not common for serial killers to feel suicidal, there are a few who have committed suicide while in police custody or in the process of being transferred to a high-security prison. Although it's impossible to say why serial killers sometimes commit suicide, I believe frustration and anger play a larger role than empathy or remorse. For example, Israel Keyes slit his wrists. Why did he do this? Because he was in a position where he could no longer stimulate his awful desires.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:29 am

I see that many are still saying that Eric for example had actually shown his true Colours to people many times and people never took it seriously. So is it safe to say their surrounding caused it?


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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Oct 18, 2016 2:32 am

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I agree they weren't insane but it's almost undeniable that Dylan was depressed and his time in Columbine made things worse.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sat Oct 22, 2016 3:21 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I think both boys suffered from childhood trauma, especially Eric. I wonder if he was molested when his father was in the military. Rape and molestation are common on bases and the Harrises seem very secretive about their life. Maybe they tried to cover something up and that's why they over indulged Eric. Childhood trauma can cause rage and anxiety that lasts for years. Both boys were very disconnected from reality. I think Dylan dealt with something from childhood but to a lesser degree. Brooks Brown mentioned in his book that Dylan would have these major meltdowns over what seemed like minor things when he was a kid. That anxiety had to come from somewhere.

A myriad of multiple things. Mental Illness I don't think caused this, just a convenient excuse/scapegoat to explain away this tragedy. Self loathing and warped perceptions. Perhaps some personality disorder issues (mainly Eric).

I believe just from what I have read of Eric to include but not limited to his journals, the moving, sexual frustrations, a desire to be higher social ladder have all influenced his negative and warped perception of the world. Short sighted (ironic given his attention to planning and detail) view of life. I think it all fueled his hatred of life but I don't think he was as suicidal as Dylan. I don't think he was a sociopath or a pyscho (he had feelings, sorrow and regret albeit overshadowed by his burning hatred). The DSM IV of that time period would not have allowed to diagnose either as psychopaths/sociopaths (ages and at least history wasn't long enough). This I also believe is why the body count wasn't as high as it could have been (disregarding the failed bombs). The "quiet" period after the library shootings indicates to me that neither had any real motivation to continue to indiscriminately kill further. Despite the hooting and hollering at that point it became 'self' motivation that was quickly sapping. Neither used knives (stabbing is real personal in respect to guns and bombs) which further raises the question to the accusations of psychopathy/sociopathy. Although I do agree they had diminished states of mind or some Dunning-Kruger type effect. I honestly in the case of Eric or wishful thinking, believe when he reached that point in the library where he knew surrender wasn't an option, he regretted his piss poor choices.

I am drawn more to Eric as I feel he gets the worse wrap of the two because he was more honest with who he was. He definitely cried for help even if he wouldn't have admitted to it.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:16 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I am drawn more to Eric as I feel he gets the worse wrap of the two because he was more honest with who he was. He definitely cried for help even if he wouldn't have admitted to it.

You, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I think we might get along.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Sat Oct 22, 2016 4:34 pm

Thanks!
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:15 am

Anger. Hatred for the school. Infamy. Jealousy of others. Severe depression and hopelessness. Part of the reason I don't agree with them leading normal lives even if they didn't choose to go through with it was because their core beliefs have already been formed which consisted of anger/hatred for normalcy. They didn't like people telling them what to do and didn't like how the social ladder worked in America. Not all the time but in most cases, if you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 17/18, you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 30. Your interests will change but your core beliefs typically don't.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:07 pm

There will never be a singular answer to this question, and I think that's what this thread was trying to get at. if we could put it on ONE reason what would it be? It's impossible cause many factors play into Columbine. Even if we could narrow it down, it would be between their mental issues, and the pressuring teenage/school life in the 90s-Columbine.

In terms of their beliefs, how soon did your views change once you age past your teens? Don't teenagers often think they know it all until they're experiencing adult life when real issues come into play?

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:05 pm

Certain beliefs are difficult to change because that's what makes you, you. What we go through and how we see the world shapes our core beliefs. Lets say for instance one of my core beliefs was guns give me and people power, it would be very difficult for anybody to change this belief of mine. I have no doubt one of Eric's core beliefs was guns give people power. This belief isn't necessarily something that will just die just because he gets older, more often than not, it gets stronger the older we get.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Nov 08, 2016 1:09 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
Certain beliefs are difficult to change because that's what makes you, you. What we go through and how we see the world shapes our core beliefs. Lets say for instance one of my core beliefs was guns give me and people power, it would be very difficult for anybody to change this belief of mine. I have no doubt one of Eric's core beliefs was guns give people power. This belief isn't necessarily something that will just die just because he gets older, more often than not, it gets stronger the older we get.

I think I get what you mean. If you're fixated on looking at things a certain way then yeah it will sure influence other issues as you grow older, and it will determine how you look at life, what you choose. I guess I get it. Kinda like if you're gonna be a democrat or a republican.

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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:42 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
. Not all the time but in most cases, if you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 17/18, you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 30. Your interests will change but your core beliefs typically don't.

That also depends on upbringing. Mid to upper class adolescence going Malibu's Most Wanted screaming F the Police likely won't be doing it at 30. If at 30 someone is saying F the police it's likely because at 7 they were being taught to F the police.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:26 pm

The main cause of Columbine was Eric's fantasy of creating a huge fireball of destruction that would stun the world.

Yes, Dylan had a fantasy of going on a spree with a girl but that is not what he ended up doing. It was Eric's fantasy they enacted.

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:53 pm

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Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.
Likewise if Eric never met Dylan who was all suicidal Columbine would not have happened.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:38 pm

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:


Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.
Likewise if Eric never met Dylan who was all suicidal Columbine would not have happened.  

Correct, but suicidal kids meet each other all the time and Columbine does not happen.

When looking for a cause you have to find the thing in Columbine that is not present in all other cases.

And in Columbine that is that one of the students involved had a consuming obsession with committing an act of terrorism at a national scale. Without that, it's a suicide that barely makes the local news.
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PostSubject: Re: What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?   Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:22 am

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The main cause of Columbine was Eric's fantasy of creating a huge fireball of destruction that would stun the world.

Yes, Dylan had a fantasy of going on a spree with a girl but that is not what he ended up doing. It was Eric's fantasy they enacted.

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.
They acted out Dylan's fantasy as well. Maybe his fantasy would have been more complete if Eric had been willing to put on a long, blonde wig but I guess Eric had some limits after all.

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