What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?

I think Columbine was caused as a product of the worst in society. You've got two kids who can't live up to the expectations some set for them, with constant rejection at their heels, whose interests label them apart from others their age - not to mention budding rage, lack of coping skills, and possible mental illnesses. You have parents who didn't bother to keep these two apart even after the January Incident of 1998, and never searched their rooms. You have friends and faculty and police who never took signs of the attack seriously. A huge, huge coincidence of warning signs being glanced over or causing heads to turn the other way; a tornado of circumstances and chances that led to two boys coming together and deciding that this was their fate, this was how they were going to leave an indelible imprint on human history. And even more chance that they managed to do it.

How someone can says that Columbine was caused because of sadism ?

Tell me one sadist serial killer who was suicidal :-)



Do you know what says Elliot Rodger in his manifesto ?



" I am not part of the human race. Humanity has rejected me. The females of the human species have never wanted to mate with me, so how could I possibly consider myself part of humanity? Humanity has never accepted me among them, and now I know why. I am more than human. I am superior to them all.
I am Elliot Rodger…"




"If you feel as if the whole world is against you, it makes it easier to start attacking random individuals – and then kill yourself.
Dr Lankford is professor of criminal justice studies at the University of Alabama"



Eric Harris "EVERYONE IS MAKING FUN OF ME" , He says EVERYONE - Yes he was bullied and bullying creates social anxiety = social anxiety makes you paranoid ...


Bree Pasquale "It was all because people were mean to them last year"


And i do not get people who believe that everything in Eric's diary is the truth .. He wrote it only for "efect" , he wanted look "badass"


For example " “I want to kill everyone except about 5 people.”"

"there are probably about 100 people max in the school alone
who I don’t want to die, the rest, MUST FUCKING DIE!”"


Eric got what he wanted ... he fooled everoyne with his diary , he wanted look like "powerfull rebel without emphaty"


REAL Eric Harris was probably shaking suicidal kid , who hated himself, who felt rejected.


I think moving to Denver was the big factor in his life ... "I wanna kill everyone in Denver"


He hated this place ..



HE WAS NOT A PSYCHOPATH

-He cared for animals
-He blamed himself "dont blame friends"
- Tell me one psychopath who commited a suicide
- One girl called him to go hangoug , he declined it because his parents were not at home and he did not wanted make them angry
-He was crying on one tape

Are you saying that E &D's parents were neglectful?

Arendelle wrote:

I think Columbine was caused as a product of the worst in society. You've got two kids who can't live up to the expectations some set for them, with constant rejection at their heels, whose interests label them apart from others their age - not to mention budding rage, lack of coping skills, and possible mental illnesses. You have parents who didn't bother to keep these two apart even after the January Incident of 1998, and never searched their rooms. You have friends and faculty and police who never took signs of the attack seriously. A huge, huge coincidence of warning signs being glanced over or causing heads to turn the other way; a tornado of circumstances and chances that led to two boys coming together and deciding that this was their fate, this was how they were going to leave an indelible imprint on human history. And even more chance that they managed to do it.

No, I wasn't trying to imply they were neglectful, just that they didn't keep E & D apart after getting into a criminal act together and that their rooms weren't searched. If anyone was neglectful it was the police. But not the parents; they couldn't have seen this coming unless they got ahold of the boy's notebooks or seen their weapons.

It would have taken some drastic measures to break up E &D's friendship at that time. They went to school together,worked together,were old enough to drive.Should their parents have done that knowing what they knew at the time?

The parents also committed mistakes like not be enough close to them to knew what was going on, the same with the search of the rooms. But many parents are like that, they dont see a reason to search the room of their teenage boy, if they dont start to suspect that something weird is going on (there are exceptions but are very few) and Eric and Dylan could hide everything very well and they didnt make their parents to suspect anything, Eric's father did a bit more and knew more about what he had in home but is probable that he didnt feel the need to search Eric's room because he could thought that his behaviour was normal or not something very serious. Parents just dont think that they are gonna find guns in their kids rooms and less at that time. Eric and Dylan fooled them like they did with everyone and even if their parents kept them apart , they would still hang out together anyway because teenagers are very rebel and dont care.

Exactly; even if they had attempted to do so, I don't think Eric and Dylan could really be kept apart. For example, I'd gotten into theft last year with a friend; we eventually went to juvenile court together. My parents wanted me to be kept apart from this guy, but we had several classes together, so it was nigh impossible to restrict contact between each other (though we're only Sophomores). Of course, once I became homeschooled, that's a different story...

But anyhow. Unless Tom, Sue, Wayne, and Kathy all got together and decided to severely curb their children's actions (which I don't see occurring, esp. since the Klebold's seemed to be very liberal-type parents), to the point where E&D were under heavy monitoring...despite my suggestion earlier, I doubt they'd stay apart. Those two were conjoined at the hip.

columbine22 wrote:

HE WAS NOT A PSYCHOPATH

-He cared for animals
-He blamed himself "dont blame friends"
- Tell me one psychopath who commited a  suicide
- One girl called him to go hangoug , he declined it because his parents were not at home and he  did not wanted  make them angry
-He was crying on one tape

None of Hare, Fuselier, Langmann, or Cullen claim that psychopathy precludes all other affects in all situations.

Cullen: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

In his account of Eric's childhood, Cullen describes "A sports enthusiast hanging out with minorities" (p. 112), who is "painfully shy," "timid but popular," (p. 113), "treasured his own tranquility" and "serenity" (p. 114) and "loved the water" (p. 115). He is not "thrilled with his looks" but "attended football games, , dances, and variety shows" and is a "big time fan" of sports. Cullen argues that "two months into high school" Eric begins "breaking through his shell" (p. 134) and while "Sophomore year, the changes began to show" (p. 146), even in the days before the massacre he is "nice" to Susan (p. 118) and shows other good traits, apologizing to the Black Jack crew and lamenting how much me will miss Bob, his boss (p. 332).

columbine22 wrote:

HE WAS NOT A PSYCHOPATH

-He cared for animals
-He blamed himself "dont blame friends"
- Tell me one psychopath who commited a  suicide
- One girl called him to go hangoug , he declined it because his parents were not at home and he  did not wanted  make them angry
-He was crying on one tape

None of Hare, Fuselier, Langmann, or Cullen claim that psychopathy precludes all other affects in all situations.

Cullen: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

In his  account of Eric's childhood, Cullen describes "A sports enthusiast hanging out with minorities" (p. 112), who is "painfully shy," "timid but popular," (p. 113), "treasured his own tranquility" and "serenity" (p. 114) and "loved the water" (p. 115). He is not "thrilled with his looks" but "attended football games, , dances, and variety shows" and is a "big time fan" of sports. Cullen argues that "two months into high school" Eric begins "breaking through his shell" (p. 134) and while "Sophomore year, the changes began to show" (p. 146), even in the days before the massacre he is "nice" to Susan (p. 118) and shows other good traits, apologizing to the Black Jack crew and lamenting how much me will miss Bob, his boss (p. 332).

It's complex and I have answered that many factors play into why Columbine happened...Such as had they been to another school or landed in good situations would they be okay? The thing is, is there a clear difference between Eric and Dylan's disorders? Such as for Dylan, I think it is hereditary, I know his mother Sue has some issues of her own, she admitted it herself in her book and I think even Jeff Kass too so, Dylan might've gotten some of his mental instability through her. I don't know if Eric's parents have any problems of their own and there's no way we will but for Eric, he always saw red, anger problems perhaps, possibly his upbringing, after which taking medication might've added more fuel to the fire, but Eric was nothing like Dylan. Now, I think both of them had a pretty good and average life. I don't think they had been abused in any way at all.

So in a way, Dylan was actually slightly mentally unstable as compared to Eric who, had a poor tolerance of his problems/failure/anger?

It's like a venn diagram and their years in Columbine is the big main circle while Eric and Dylan's own issues are the two separate ones and then combined which resulted in murder/suicide.

I'm still very confused and amazed at the fact that the parents of a teenage boy ticked "suicidal thoughts" knowing that boys at that age, especially Eric, try to avoid showing emotions. I'm just imagining him throwing fits: crying and threatening suicide because else I can't understand how that could happen. In my opinion we barely have anything regarding their personalities and happenings in their daily lives. Just quotes here and there, very small in number. A page of a few 'accounts' don't picture a person as a whole. I love it when people fall for some 'accounts' especially on Tumblr. Had some people completely eat up some stories 'a girl' who says she talked to them and said especially Dylan talked about 'love and society'. I mean come on, everyone talks about these things, GIVE US SPECIFIC INTERACTIONS, not general bullshit. (/rant over).

Even though Eric gave a tough man impression I can't help but think he was openly suicidal to some people and it's sad we don't have much info about this probable part of him. I somewhat believe the accounts of the girl who went out (don't remember her name) with him and said she had to talk him out of suicide.

And no, unlike some, I don't blame his parents for not reacting to his behavior because I lived with a troubled person and you're put in an incredibly difficult position, especially concerning a family member. It's easy to point fingers when the rabbit's out of the hat but trust me, when you're cloaked in uncertainty and can't possibly imagine that person could do bad things on such a massive scale, you've no idea what could happen next. You're confronted with choosing between taking action and end up like an overreacting freak who could ruin that persons' or your future in many ways (socially, economically) or hoping that it's not that bad, try to work it out and having that blow up in your face.


Edit: It's completely off-topic but man stuff like this makes me mad. It wasn't goddamn Dylan who went 'la da da" around the end of the Dykeman Morning Ride, it was most likely Nate or someone else, jesus christ I want to punch a baby right now cause even respected Columbine blogs fall for it. I know people on here don't make these silly confusions but I had to release some steam somewhere. Pls don't ban me ;^)

Magnaphoria wrote:

I'm still very confused and amazed at the fact that the parents of a teenage boy ticked "suicidal thoughts" knowing that boys at that age, especially Eric, try to avoid showing emotions. I'm just imagining him throwing fits: crying and threatening suicide because else I can't understand how that could happen. In my opinion we barely have anything regarding their personalities and happenings in their daily lives. Just quotes here and there, very small in number. A page of a few 'accounts' don't picture a person as a whole. I love it when people fall for some 'accounts' especially on Tumblr. Had some people completely eat up some stories 'a girl' who says she talked to them and said especially Dylan talked about 'love and society'. I mean come on, everyone talks about these things, GIVE US SPECIFIC INTERACTIONS, not general bullshit. (/rant over).

Even though Eric gave a tough man impression I can't help but think he was openly suicidal to some people and it's sad we don't have much info about this probable part of him. I somewhat believe the accounts of the girl who went out (don't remember her name) with him and said she had to talk him out of suicide.

On page 17 you can see that Eric's parents were able to indicate the items on the psychological checklist because he mentioned them to the psychologist he saw after the van incident. They said that this is what led to him being prescribed antidepressants.

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I don't get the impression that Eric discussed his feelings with his parents very often and he doesn't seem like the type to have had crying fits or threaten suicide, especially in front of his parents.

I believe Eric's parents were at least aware of his anger issues. And the main reason I think that is b/c of Sue mentioning him freaking out at Dylan after that soccer game, and how his parents were quick to react and knew how to calm him down. And he was like 15 then. So I think they probably saw this more than once prior to that, if not somewhat often.

I know when they met with the Mausers they claimed the only time they recalled Eric reacting violently in front of them was when he slammed his fist into a wall, but I honestly feel like they saw much more than just that and were aware that he had a short fuse. This doesn't mean I blame them at all for what Eric did, more than likely they chalked it up to teenage hormones and figured he'd grow out of it. People back then didn't think their kid's anger issues would result in mass murder.

Another thing, and I know everyone particularly the media likes to blame the music, movies and video games for violence among teenagers, but I feel that Dylan was actually deeply influenced by his preferences in the pop culture of that time. His obsession with Natural Born Killers, emulating Mickey and wanting his own Mallory-esque partner to go on a killing spree with. He mentioned in his journals something about girls he was attracted to being "pure"... I don't remember how it's written exactly off the top of my head, but some people seemed confused by what that meant. Sometimes I wonder if that was influenced by Nine Inch Nails lyrics. Several of their songs make reference to "purity" or being "pure/impure", and it's possible he identified with it or like the way it sounded when describing things in his own writing. Shooting his gun sideways like all the badasses in the movies... I've thought of other examples to support this opinion but I can't think of them right now.

Even though columbine happened nearly 20 years ago and that E&D would be in their mid 30s now, I still forget that they were just teenagers when they did this.

Mj2beat wrote:

Ive seen lots of opinions in this board about the massacre and Eric and Dylan personalities and problems but I would like to know what you guys think that caused everything?

The problem I have with insiders' accounts of the tragedy is that these supposed "insiders" tend to project their own biases and life experiences onto the killers and the school. That's a common logical fallacy. But I don't necessarily blame the insiders. Eric and Dylan were very secretive people, and I doubt insiders had the ability interpret what they were seeing.

Having said that, I think there might be no single cause for Columbine. I know it's not too difficult to believe, but it's difficult to conceptualize in our own minds. We often want to see pretty patterns and cause and effect tables. But the truth is much, much more incongruent, disoriented.

Eric and Dylan were not insane, nor were they disturbed. If I could blame psychosis and violent video games, I don't think this forum could survive for very long. I think the best question to ask is, "How?" I think how gets us closer to understanding and closure.

columbine22 wrote:

How someone can says that Columbine was caused because  of sadism ?

Tell me one sadist serial killer who was suicidal  

Although it's not common for serial killers to feel suicidal, there are a few who have committed suicide while in police custody or in the process of being transferred to a high-security prison. Although it's impossible to say why serial killers sometimes commit suicide, I believe frustration and anger play a larger role than empathy or remorse. For example, Israel Keyes slit his wrists. Why did he do this? Because he was in a position where he could no longer stimulate his awful desires.

I see that many are still saying that Eric for example had actually shown his true Colours to people many times and people never took it seriously. So is it safe to say their surrounding caused it?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I agree they weren't insane but it's almost undeniable that Dylan was depressed and his time in Columbine made things worse.

jettfyre80 wrote:

I think both boys suffered from childhood trauma, especially Eric. I wonder if he was molested when his father was in the military. Rape and molestation are common on bases and the Harrises seem very secretive about their life. Maybe they tried to cover something up and that's why they over indulged Eric. Childhood trauma can cause rage and anxiety that lasts for years. Both boys were very disconnected from reality. I think Dylan dealt with something from childhood but to a lesser degree. Brooks Brown mentioned in his book that Dylan would have these major meltdowns over what seemed like minor things when he was a kid. That anxiety had to come from somewhere.

A myriad of multiple things. Mental Illness I don't think caused this, just a convenient excuse/scapegoat to explain away this tragedy. Self loathing and warped perceptions. Perhaps some personality disorder issues (mainly Eric).

I believe just from what I have read of Eric to include but not limited to his journals, the moving, sexual frustrations, a desire to be higher social ladder have all influenced his negative and warped perception of the world. Short sighted (ironic given his attention to planning and detail) view of life. I think it all fueled his hatred of life but I don't think he was as suicidal as Dylan. I don't think he was a sociopath or a pyscho (he had feelings, sorrow and regret albeit overshadowed by his burning hatred). The DSM IV of that time period would not have allowed to diagnose either as psychopaths/sociopaths (ages and at least history wasn't long enough). This I also believe is why the body count wasn't as high as it could have been (disregarding the failed bombs). The "quiet" period after the library shootings indicates to me that neither had any real motivation to continue to indiscriminately kill further. Despite the hooting and hollering at that point it became 'self' motivation that was quickly sapping. Neither used knives (stabbing is real personal in respect to guns and bombs) which further raises the question to the accusations of psychopathy/sociopathy. Although I do agree they had diminished states of mind or some Dunning-Kruger type effect. I honestly in the case of Eric or wishful thinking, believe when he reached that point in the library where he knew surrender wasn't an option, he regretted his piss poor choices.

I am drawn more to Eric as I feel he gets the worse wrap of the two because he was more honest with who he was. He definitely cried for help even if he wouldn't have admitted to it.

Imperator wrote:

I am drawn more to Eric as I feel he gets the worse wrap of the two because he was more honest with who he was. He definitely cried for help even if he wouldn't have admitted to it.

You, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I think we might get along.

Thanks!

Anger. Hatred for the school. Infamy. Jealousy of others. Severe depression and hopelessness. Part of the reason I don't agree with them leading normal lives even if they didn't choose to go through with it was because their core beliefs have already been formed which consisted of anger/hatred for normalcy. They didn't like people telling them what to do and didn't like how the social ladder worked in America. Not all the time but in most cases, if you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 17/18, you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 30. Your interests will change but your core beliefs typically don't.

There will never be a singular answer to this question, and I think that's what this thread was trying to get at. if we could put it on ONE reason what would it be? It's impossible cause many factors play into Columbine. Even if we could narrow it down, it would be between their mental issues, and the pressuring teenage/school life in the 90s-Columbine.

In terms of their beliefs, how soon did your views change once you age past your teens? Don't teenagers often think they know it all until they're experiencing adult life when real issues come into play?

Certain beliefs are difficult to change because that's what makes you, you. What we go through and how we see the world shapes our core beliefs. Lets say for instance one of my core beliefs was guns give me and people power, it would be very difficult for anybody to change this belief of mine. I have no doubt one of Eric's core beliefs was guns give people power. This belief isn't necessarily something that will just die just because he gets older, more often than not, it gets stronger the older we get.

Sane One wrote:

Certain beliefs are difficult to change because that's what makes you, you. What we go through and how we see the world shapes our core beliefs. Lets say for instance one of my core beliefs was guns give me and people power, it would be very difficult for anybody to change this belief of mine. I have no doubt one of Eric's core beliefs was guns give people power. This belief isn't necessarily something that will just die just because he gets older, more often than not, it gets stronger the older we get.

I think I get what you mean. If you're fixated on looking at things a certain way then yeah it will sure influence other issues as you grow older, and it will determine how you look at life, what you choose. I guess I get it. Kinda like if you're gonna be a democrat or a republican.

Sane One wrote:

. Not all the time but in most cases, if you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 17/18, you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 30. Your interests will change but your core beliefs typically don't.

That also depends on upbringing. Mid to upper class adolescence going Malibu's Most Wanted screaming F the Police likely won't be doing it at 30. If at 30 someone is saying F the police it's likely because at 7 they were being taught to F the police.

The main cause of Columbine was Eric's fantasy of creating a huge fireball of destruction that would stun the world.

Yes, Dylan had a fantasy of going on a spree with a girl but that is not what he ended up doing. It was Eric's fantasy they enacted.

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

lasttrain wrote:

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

Likewise if Eric never met Dylan who was all suicidal Columbine would not have happened.

Imperator wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

Likewise if Eric never met Dylan who was all suicidal Columbine would not have happened.  

Correct, but suicidal kids meet each other all the time and Columbine does not happen.

When looking for a cause you have to find the thing in Columbine that is not present in all other cases.

And in Columbine that is that one of the students involved had a consuming obsession with committing an act of terrorism at a national scale. Without that, it's a suicide that barely makes the local news.

lasttrain wrote:

The main cause of Columbine was Eric's fantasy of creating a huge fireball of destruction that would stun the world.

Yes, Dylan had a fantasy of going on a spree with a girl but that is not what he ended up doing. It was Eric's fantasy they enacted.

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

They acted out Dylan's fantasy as well. Maybe his fantasy would have been more complete if Eric had been willing to put on a long, blonde wig but I guess Eric had some limits after all.

lasttrain wrote:

Imperator wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

Likewise if Eric never met Dylan who was all suicidal Columbine would not have happened.  

Correct, but suicidal kids meet each other all the time and Columbine does not happen.

When looking for a cause you have to find the thing in Columbine that is not present in all other cases.

And in Columbine that is that one of the students involved had a consuming obsession with committing an act of terrorism at a national scale. Without that, it's a suicide that barely makes the local news.

Not all suicidal kids have NBK fantasies.

The boys weren't isolated. Were not rejected. They were traumatized and abused. Their behavior was constantly judged whilst others that were harming them physically were allowed to get away with it. People enjoyed their suffering and they knew it. They wanted to kill themselves because their reality was nothing but pain, seeing it, feeling it, wanting to give it. So they figured their minds were destroyed and wanted to die. This was a way to get revenge on whatever they blamed for themselves losing their minds as they did die.

Also, I don't think that they felt love for anything.

Abuse puts a horrible feeling inside of you that doesn't go away. It fuels the rage. If you can make it go away somehow, then good for you. But good luck with that. That's why people do all this bizarre shit and drugs. The feeling. Call it, Feeling X.

abuse, punish, traumatize = feeling X.

Abused, punished and traumatized are some really strong words. And who exactly put Dylan and Eric through this? They had good families, like really good families. They had a lot of friends, they were intelligent and could have actually made something of themselves. They were spoiled brats is what they were. No one abused them. Another student picking on your t shirt is not abuse or being punished.

I'm actually interested in hearing about the abuse they went through cuz I've never heard about that before. Neither of them had even gotten into a physical fight in or outside of school. In fact, the police were contacted over what Eric was doing, not what someone else was doing to Eric.

Dylan was depressed and suicidal, yea that is true but it had nothing to do with someone abusing him. Some people are just mentally sick without there being some extreme reason behind it.

Jenn wrote:

Abused, punished and traumatized are some really strong words. And who exactly put Dylan and Eric through this? They had good families, like really good families. They had a lot of friends, they were intelligent and could have actually made something of themselves. They were spoiled brats is what they were. No one abused them. Another student picking on your t shirt is not abuse or being punished.

I'm actually interested in hearing about the abuse they went through cuz I've never heard about that before. Neither of them had even gotten into a physical fight in or outside of school. In fact, the police were contacted over what Eric was doing, not what someone else was doing to Eric.

Dylan was depressed and suicidal, yea that is true but it had nothing to do with someone abusing him. Some people are just mentally sick without there being some extreme reason behind it.

Abuse:

watch?v=XI0HngZYVps
[Lost Boys Part 3]
[at 1:05 chris morris explains some abuse]

watch?v=AZix8_7f_lY
[Columbine - Brooks Brown describes bullying at Columbine]
[Brooks Brown explains some of it]

(Add those urls to the end of YTs url)

Sue Klebold pushed Dylan against the fridge once and got physical with him.

Traumatize:
Eric said prison was the most traumatizing experience of his life and Dylan said it branded him a criminal for life.
I don't know if they were at family funerals, but that would traumatize someone.
Dylan and Eric were watching Gore and serial killers online, and BDSM, which is traumatizing.

Punishments:
Eric and Dylan were blamed for hacking the school system using a teacher's password, with no evidence they were punished for it. They were also punished for the notes in the lockers, with no hard evidence. Punished for breaking into the van. Punished for breaking Brooks Brown's car windshield. Punished for misrepresenting that he was taking luvox on his marine application, although there is some speculation as to if he knew he was rejected by the military or not. Punished by Gardener when he was alerted by police that Eric threatened to kill Brooks Brown. They were judging his behavior when he got angry and were scared, so they were plotting to either put him in jail or scare him or something. Maybe he "deserved" it but to him it was all unfair.

I'm sure more can be added to this.
Also Eric was known for being in grade 12(i think?) and being interested in the freshman girls that were a lot younger, giving one girl his email and asking her if she would talk to him online, but she said she wasn't allowed on the internet unless her parents were supervising. (which is a smart thing, and shows how young she really was). So there is that, some people might find that a little odd, as her father did. There were girls in the school who thought Eric and Dylan were hot because they looked like bad boys heh. Teens keep things secret too, so we will never know the true extent of what the two went through in their lives, they were hanging around a pretty rough crowd who had a lot of anger themselves, and who knows what kind of things went on.

As far as being punished for the van incident goes, I feel like they knew it was wrong and they were aware that their actions would result in punishment if they got caught. I don't think they were so dense or mentally innocent or whatever that they were oblivious to any sort of consequences to their actions. They knew better, so I don't feel sorry for them at all for that one.

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Lol, prison? Eric was never in prison. Dylan and Eric were arrested (which was their own fault) and they were taken to the county police station where they were held until they were finished being booked, you know, for theft? And then they were picked up by their parents. Being that they never had any kind of legal trouble before, they didn't even have to wait for a judge to set a bail for them. They were released into their parents custody within a few hours after they were arrested. They didn't even go to jail let alone prison. And their "punishment" for breaking into someone else's property was to send the owner of the van a letter of apology and do some community service. And with that program, they wouldn't even have a criminal record when it was all said and done. They were lucky and got off easy.

And his Mother getting physical with him. Oh, come on now. That's is a bit of stretch and I'd hardly call that physical. She was upset because he was treating her like shit. She didn't slam him or punch him and he was a lot bigger than her anyway. He should have some respect for his Mother, which obviously he didn't. I mean he ruined her life in the end.

What does Eric being interested in younger girls have to do with anything? Freshmen girls date Senior guys all the time. What, because he was turned down by girls? Well that is apart of life. You're never going to get everything you want when you want it.

It is still judging their behavior and putting material possessions above the well being of a humans life. Humiliating them and so on. They didn't believe in those laws, so the effects of being punished for doing something like that isn't what it would be for someone who supports those laws. All that stuff they went through is still scary and humiliating and degrading.

What his mother did is still physical abuse. Regardless. He told people he hated his parents and so did Eric.

Some feel he was too old to hang out with young girls.

I've only read one account of Eric asking a girl out who was a freshman (when he was a senior) and her parents not allowing it due to the age difference. If I'm remembering correctly he was just asking her to prom and not actually asking to date her. I think he reached a level of desperation trying to find a prom date that he didn't care what grade the girls were in. I haven't read anything else that indicates Eric often spent time with much younger girls; he seemed to stay in and around his own age group for the most part

While I do question if Eric & Dylan were abused in any way (besides bullying), I don't think we can point to one incident as evidence either way.

I'm not at all justifying Sue pushing Dylan against a wall, but was this an isolated incident or a pattern ? Even mothers have their limits, and it's quite possible that Dylan found Sue's.

Most likely isolated.

Hi, I'm new here and this is my first post. I started reading this thread but before I got to the second page I already wanted to add my thoughts because what I was reading was thought provoking.

I can only paint some of the picture as I see it, in this first post...

Eric Harris grew up not being able to make long-lasting friends because his family continually moved around when he was younger. That would have had a great deal of effect on him, not just from losing his friends all the time, but because as he got older it would have become harder to fit in and establish strong friendships. By the time he moved to Littleton, he was already feeling socially frustrated because of this, and fitting in would have been that much harder when he found himself in the environment at Columbine, where there was a lot of bullying going on. (And there was, no matter that some will still deny it.)

For Harris, home life was probably typical of many military families: Strict rules while growing up but also a lot of freedom later on based on giving him more responsibilities as he moved into adulthood. Unfortunately, many parents don't pay so much attention to their kids at that age because they're giving them more freedom and expect them to be responsible, so it's very easy at that age to get into things that you shouldn't, and the parents don't know, especially once you've convinced your parents that you have learned well from them already. But excessive strictness makes a person want to exercise their freedoms a little more than otherwise, once they get them. I think that was the case here with Eric.

For Dylan, it was obviously different. He was well-loved in his family, and that affected his character in a good way, making him a very loving person who was very sensitive to others feelings (as much as his own), and that made him very shy and so it was difficult to make friends or feel like he fit in. On the other hand, coming from such a loving family meant that he probably had a lot of pent up frustrations that needed an outlet because he couldn't easily relate his frustrations to his parents, who, like most parents, are out of touch with the younger generation and the sort of problems they face in today's world. Dylan might have been fine and gotten through his issues and come out okay if he hadn't become such close friends with Eric. But I think Harris was the spark that ignited Klebold's deepest feelings and brought them to the surface.

Adulthood was a looming threat to both Harris and Klebold. The future looked very dismal to them both. They would soon have to face a (for Harris, another) major turning point in their lives where they would be separated from those friends they had made, who were all they had at that point, and all they could really expect to have, given how things had turned out. The past had shown them both that real friends were hard to come by. I think that's what made the two of them such good friends to each other. They both recognized the value of friendships and the necessity of having long-lasting ones in order to have a happy and fulfilling life. It wasn't just the lack of a fulfilling social life that caused this tragedy, but that was certainly a major factor.

I'm certain there must have been a conversation between the two of them sometime before they started planning this out where they brought this all out on the table and really looked at their prospects for the future, and decided that it was pointless to go on. That's when they made the commitment to do this, and from that point on, they focused on it completely, and it gave them a sense of purpose. It gave value to their lives, especially when they decided to make as big a splash as they could, and send a message to the world. The main goal was to release themselves from the pain they felt. The secondary goal was to make a point to the world about how fucked up it is that two kids would have go to this length to make a statement about their anguish. Unfortunately, the authorities and the media will take a situation like this and turn it to their own advantage, so the most important message we could have gotten from this event was lost to most people. It became just another tragedy in a world of tragedies. Let's move on, folks. Nothing to see here!

But seriously, we take it far too lightly that the world is becoming increasingly formidable for many young people to enter into. Many will get the breaks and have the right connections to have a happy and fulfilling life and be successful, but many others are doomed to eke out an bare existence where they will never achieve anything that could amount to feeling secure or happy. It only becomes apparent which group you're in once you start getting into adulthood and start having to think about it.

Those sorts of thoughts played a large part in leading Eric and Dylan to decide they wanted to die. They began to embrace the release that death would give them, and from that point on they used every slight and abuse against them to fuel their determination to carry out their plan. This is why they were able to keep their secret so well, and to carry it out in the last instant without any doubts or misgivings. They had convinced themselves that death was the only solution.

The two of them had started planning this as much as two years prior to doing it. In that time, they began to associate with others who helped to fuel the idea, irrespective of their knowledge that these two were planning actually carry this out.
The apparent support of such a plan from their friends, even as idle talk, would have helped to convince Eric and Dylan that it wasn't such a bad idea. And there was talk among them about doing this sort of thing for a long time. I just read a police interview with Chris Morris, who apparently knew about E&D's bomb-making activities long before the shooting, so it wasn't like E&D's friends weren't going to dissuade them. Just the opposite. Their friends had a huge influence on their desire to attack the school.

I'll stop here for now....

I read some comments that suggest that Harris was a psychopath.

Psychopathy is a condition where the emotions are no longer a factor in decision making. Instinctive reasoning is in control.

A little lesson...

The brain is structured in four evolutionary stages that parallel certain responsive traits. To put it simply, the first and lowest stage (brain stem or reptilain brain) deals with purely survival-related responses, the second stage (limbic system) deals with emotion-related responses. The third stage (neocortex) deals with intelligence-related responses. The fourth stage (pre-frontal lobes) deals with planning and predicting. The brain is structured so that signals normally loop through these various stages so that lower-level responses can be overruled by higher-level responses before they're acted on... i.e. you get an urge to react to something based on instinct or emotion, but you catch yourself and think better of it because you foresee the consequences will not be good for you if you do. That wouldn't be possible without looped signals. You would always react from the first and lowest stage.

A psychopath has effectively turned off the emotions. Their brain signals are based on the instinctive drive to survive without any interference of emotional responses. The limbic system is bypassed completely. They still have full use of the other stages, but they bypass the emotions.

The brain is very adaptable and neural changes can occur quite easily and rapidly in certain situations. For instance, sections of the brain can be removed through surgery, and other parts will make up for the loss so that little to no functionality is lost. On the other hand, a part of the brain (or any other part of the body) that isn't used will atrophy and stop working altogether after a while.

Consider this in respect to what I stated in my last post about Eric and Dylan making the decision to kill themselves, after which they fueled that commitment with every slight and abuse against them. At that point, they consciously decided to disregard their emotions and they began to practice doing so. At first it would have been hard, but with time and practice, the brain would become more habituated to not responding and the signals would be more and more easily rerouted. Those signal paths become stronger over time with use. It becomes easier to turn off the emotions. The result is a growing emptiness, coldness, but also a heightened awareness and even intelligence. Psychopathy begins to take root.

I believe that Eric was always denied a healthy amount of love in his family, even if it wasn't a bad home otherwise. I believe that he started shutting off his emotions long before all this, and that a psychopathic tendency was taking root as a consequence. I'm not saying he was a psychopath, but things aren't just there or not there. They come about by degrees. We normally have that ability to temper the emotions in a moment of frustration or anger. Some of us not so well as others, but it's usually healthy to do so anyway. Some of us turn them off, at least temporarily, in order not to have to suffer them. Some of us reach a point where we actually contemplate doing something like Eric and Dylan did. Few of us carry it out however, because we aren't pushed hard enough to decide to shut off our emotions completely long enough to plan and carry out such an act. We catch ourselves because we have reasons to be concerned about the consequences. But when you make a commitment such as they did, it would be a completely different story. At the point that they made their commitment, they only cared about not getting caught with their plans and being stopped.

You know it is interesting that Eric never mentioned suicide. He only mentions getting shot (suicide by cop perhaps?)


From the Basement Tapes:

He says he's going to be "one tired mother fucker come Monday then Boom! I'll get shot & die"


From Eric's Journal:

I know I could get shot by a cop after only killing a single person, but hey guess the fuck WHAT! I chose to kill that one person so get over it! It’s MY fault! Not my parents, not my brothers, not my friends, not my favorite bands, not computer games, not the media. IT is MINE! so shut the fuck up!

REB

Imperator wrote:

The "quiet" period after the library shootings indicates to me that neither had any real motivation to continue to indiscriminately kill further.  Despite the hooting and hollering at that point it became 'self' motivation that was quickly sapping.  Neither used knives (stabbing is real personal in respect to guns and bombs) which further raises the question to the accusations of psychopathy/sociopathy.  Although I do agree they had diminished states of mind or some Dunning-Kruger type effect.  I honestly in the case of Eric or wishful thinking, believe when he reached that point in the library where he knew surrender wasn't an option, he regretted his piss poor choices.

I agree for the most part, but I don't think Eric was the one who wavered with regret. The explanation will become clear at the end of this post.

I have wondered about the planning of this event, more specifically how they planned to deal with any number of the things that might have gone wrong.

AFAIK, the plan was to detonate all those bombs, both in the school and the parking lot, and then to 'clean house' by shooting people as they tried to escape or lay wounded. But I wonder, when most of the bombs failed, did they have a contingency plan? Or what about getting caught before they had a chance to turn the guns on themselves, and ended up with life in prison? Or even failing to kill themselves, and ending up surviving, but as mental vegetables or cripples from their own injuries?

I'm certain that these possibilities came to mind over the long time that they planned this out. Based on how things unfolded, I think they had a basic plan that would assure their own deaths, and the rest of their plans with all the bombs and carnage was for the added excitement and, more importantly, to release their pent up rage.

After their rage was spent in the library, I don't think they really had the heart to keep shooting people in cold blood. At least, not after it started sinking in what they were doing.

They started shooting at the cops, trying to engage them, and I think that was part of their plan. I think they expected the cops to come in after them. They had hoped for 'suicide by cop', but they were still resolved to killing themselves if they had to. And that's what happened in the end when the police held back.

Interestingly, the infamous suicide photos of Eric and Dylan show that Dylan couldn't have shot himself. He was left-handed and the head wound is on the back-right side of his head. That means that Eric shot him, and then killed himself. Was that in the plans? That would be a tough thing for them to have to deal with, but I think it must have been a contingency plan, and it was carried out. They were committed all the way. I think that they agreed that if one of them began to back down at that point, the other would assist. And it was Dylan who would have been the most likely to back down in the end, wouldn't it?

Forgive me if this has gotten slightly off-topic to the thread...

Anthony Forwood wrote:

Adulthood was a looming threat to both Harris and Klebold. The future looked very dismal to them both. They would soon have to face a (for Harris, another) major turning point in their lives where they would be separated from those friends they had made, who were all they had at that point, and all they could really expect to have, given how things had turned out. The past had shown them both that real friends were hard to come by. I think that's what made the two of them such good friends to each other. They both recognized the value of friendships and the necessity of having long-lasting ones in order to have a happy and fulfilling life. It wasn't just the lack of a fulfilling social life that caused this tragedy, but that was certainly a major factor.

I'm certain there must have been a conversation between the two of them sometime before they started planning this out where they brought this all out on the table and really looked at their prospects for the future, and decided that it was pointless to go on. That's when they made the commitment to do this, and from that point on, they focused on it completely, and it gave them a sense of purpose. It gave value to their lives, especially when they decided to make as big a splash as they could, and send a message to the world. The main goal was to release themselves from the pain they felt. The secondary goal was to make a point to the world about how fucked up it is that two kids would have go to this length to make a statement about their anguish. Unfortunately, the authorities and the media will take a situation like this and turn it to their own advantage, so the most important message we could have gotten from this event was lost to most people. It became just another tragedy in a world of tragedies. Let's move on, folks. Nothing to see here!

I agree with some of what you said but I might disagree with the part quoted above. I was reading through this thread a few days ago and there are some points brought up about Dylan's feelings toward Eric and toward their carrying out "NBK" that you might be interested in.
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The quote being discussed is from Dylan's journal in early 1999.

Dylan Klebold wrote:

I hate this non-thinking stasis. Im stuck in humanity. maybe going "NBK" (gawd) w. eric is the way to break free. i hate this.

Regardless of exactly what he means here, there seems to be some indication that although he had been considering it for a long time, he wasn't completely committed to the plan ("maybe," "gawd"), even a few months before they carried it out. I would assume that neither of them were quite sure at first but I don't know if Dylan ever fully committed himself until the very end. I won't suggest that he was an unwilling participant because I believe he wanted to do it but I think it's clear that this was the main event of Eric's life for a year before the massacre while Dylan kept his distance from serious planning and preparation, always letting Eric take the lead. In my opinion, it's possible that they were not both equally committed and focused on this outcome from the beginning. I also question how much (or how honestly) they talked about their personal reasons for doing it and whether Eric and Dylan were as close as their actions might suggest. I feel that the secondary goal you mentioned was discussed far more than their primary goal and I think it's possible that neither of them knew exactly how much pain the other boy was feeling.

On the topic of Eric being a psychopath, I think what you're saying might be true to some extent. These perpetrators seem to develop a strategy by which they can either turn off emotional reactions or train themselves to view their victims in such a way that their empathy is deadened. Anders Breivik was consciously working at this process by viewing his victims as Marxist traitors and "had used Bushido meditation. He said that this involved manipulating your own mind to suppress fear, but also other feelings. ‘That’s the reason I seem de-emotionalised. I couldn’t have survived otherwise’" (although there is evidence that his empathy and emotion was already lacking due to trauma/neglect at an early age). Mary Ellen O'Toole, who reportedly had access to Adam Lanza's journals, said, "Over the course of time he trained his mind to view humans more as objects" (she decided that he was a textbook psychopath, and while this makes little sense to me, there is evidence that Lanza was already impaired in his experience of empathy, possibly due to autism). In Eric's case, he said something indicating that his process was very similar.

Eric Harris wrote:

I have a goal to destroy as much as possible so I must not be sidetracked by my feelings of sympathy, mercy, or any of that, so I will force myself to believe that everyone is just another monster from Doom like FH [Former Human, mob in Doom] or FS [Former Sergeant] or demons, so it’s either me or them. I have to turn off my feelings.”

In one part of the basement tapes, he says that he wishes he was a sociopath so he didn't have to feel remorse for putting his parents in this position. Some see this as evidence of his psychopathy, since he went ahead with it anyway, but it might be closer to what you are suggesting and I believe that this interpretation may be more likely. Eric may also have had some emotional impairment from an earlier age but the main point is that he had committed himself to this mission and he recognized that he would have to tone down his emotional processing in order to carry out his plans so that is what he worked at. Some people might believe that this would not be possible if you were not already emotionally impaired but this is what military training does in order to turn normal men into soldiers who can kill with no hesitation when they are carrying out a mission. I've heard that tactics to normalize the act of killing while distancing soldiers from the humanity of their targets are routine. If you frame the act of killing properly, it can even become something that a person aspires to.

Check out 8:45-13:00


Obviously soldiers face the possibility of being killed by their enemies so there is a distinct difference between soldiers and other killers but I still think it's interesting to note that while they may not have started out at the same emotional level, Breivik, Lanza and Eric Harris all had an interest in or aspirations to join the military, they all consciously developed their ability to disregard their emotional response or dehumanize their victims as the military does and they all used shooter video games to train their reflexes or mindset to some extent, as the military does. Apparently, there is a reliable process to turn men into soldiers (and killers) and they all seem to have mimicked this process in their own way as part of their preparation.

sscc wrote:

I agree with some of what you said but I might disagree with the part quoted above. I was reading through this thread a few days ago and there are some points brought up about Dylan's feelings toward Eric and toward their carrying out "NBK" that you might be interested in.
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The quote being discussed is from Dylan's journal in early 1999.

Dylan Klebold wrote:

I hate this non-thinking stasis. Im stuck in humanity. maybe going "NBK" (gawd) w. eric is the way to break free. i hate this.

That's very interesting.

Allow me to finish reading what you have to say and looking at all of what you posted here and then I'll get back to you.

sscc wrote:

I feel that the secondary goal you mentioned was discussed far more than their primary goal...

Yes, of coarse, and once the primary goal was decided on (whether or not fully committed) it didn't have to be thought about much, and better that it wasn't. That actually made it easier to focus on the secondary goal and put the other one out of mind.

sscc wrote:

On the topic of Eric being a psychopath, I think what you're saying might be true to some extent. These perpetrators seem to develop a strategy by which they can either turn off emotional reactions or train themselves to view their victims in such a way that their empathy is deadened. Anders Breivik was consciously working at this process by viewing his victims as Marxist traitors and "had used Bushido meditation. He said that this involved manipulating your own mind to suppress fear, but also other feelings.

sscc wrote:

this is what military training does in order to turn normal men into soldiers who can kill with no hesitation when they are carrying out a mission. I've heard that tactics to normalize the act of killing while distancing soldiers from the humanity of their targets are routine. If you frame the act of killing properly, it can even become something that a person aspires to.

Yes, indeed. The military and intelligence agencies both do this routinely. They've studied the human mind inside and out, and have discovered some very interesting things. Early on during MKULTRA, they tried to create the perfect soldier who would kill on command, no matter who the person might be. This posed a problem, because they found out that even when hypnotized, the soldier's underlying morals tended to get in the way. So what they did was they changed the soldier's perceptions. While under hypnosis, they made them think that they were seeing someone other than who it really was, or make them think the person posed a serious threat to them, or whatever else was required to get over the moral issue. It worked very well.

In a sense, this is what Eric was probably doing whenever he projected his anger through computer games or mental fantasies. Computer games are very hypnotic. And I can't dismiss the fact that he was essentially training his mind while playing Doom, and then when he was facing the people who angered him, he was internalizing his feelings in the moment and then processing them through fantasies of revenge in a Doom-like scenario. It was important that that scenario was there in order for them to continue with their plans, even if they didn't realize it. It was one of the factors that kept them focused. All the videos and classroom essays on death and destruction were also part of staying focused. And the focusing was nothing less than maintaining a kind of hypnotic state by continually reinterpreting reality through a substituted one. Just like them soldiers!

Well, not quite. The sort of self-hypnosis that might have been involved here is nothing like the hypnosis that is used on soldiers and spies. Those guys go through very sophisticated processes.

I don't know about Dylan now. You messed up my perfect understanding.