If Dylan ever tried to get away from Eric, he didn't try very hard.

This is another thing in the book that drives me up the wall.
Sue makes a big deal in the book how Dylan once told her"Eric is crazy." and used her as an excuse to turn down Eric's invitations when he'd call him for a while after the van break in.
She says that's firm evidence that Dylan once recognized how dangerous Eric was and make an effort to escape the friendship on his own.
I don't think that indicates that at all.Dylan kept hanging around Eric all the time and he was at the Harris house so often the last several months of his life that one of Eric's neighbors thought he lived there too.
I think that either Eric and Dylan were going through a period then of not getting along, which does happen even with the closest of friends.There are times when everything you do or say drives the other nuts and it leads to argument after argument.
Lots of times one friend will try to limit their time with the other just to keep the peace.

Or Dylan was trying to make himself look better in front of his parents so they would get off his back sooner and things would go more back to normal.

I doubly believe this because Sue still won't admit that Eric was Dylan's best friend at the time of the tragedy and had been for quite some time.
She still insists Nate Dykeman was.
I also think she doesn't want to accept that E &D did indeed have their own little world that they lived in.Just because they had other friends and engaged with others doesn't mean that wasn't the case.

I always thought they were "best" friends but after joining this site I've had second thoughts. I know everyone expresses their feelings differently but in Dylan's journals he refers Eric as a friend, Eric on the other hand refers to Dylan as his best friend. I think Dylan was good friends with Eric but used him as a means to an end because no one else would.

Granted this is just my thoughts on this, which may change again.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Two people have to have an incredible bond to do something like this.The absolute trust you must have in the other person is unbelievable .Eric knew things about Dylan nobody else did and I feel that's because Eric was the only other person he knew who felt somewhat the same and had the same thoughts.
I don't think that Eric was always his very best friend.
They were close friends for a long time and their four guy group all seemed to be best friends and Dylan once considered himself closest to Zack, but by the time they died they were much closer to each other than anyone else.
Dylan also wrote once in a worried tone that "Eric will be getting further away soon."
Drawn your own conclusions but I find it hard to accept knowing everything we know that Eric was Dylan's best friend when they died.

I think if you asked Eric who his best friend was, he would have said Dylan, but not the other way around. I do agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that Dylan did use Eric as a means to his suicidal end. I just am awestruck though by the Cullenists, etc. (including, I believe Sue Klebold herself, sadly) that believe in the Eric the Psychopath/Dylan the Depressive mantra.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
How do you think that Dylan felt and thought about Eric and his friendship with him?

Thanks [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I think Dylan felt that Eric was a friend and a kindred spirit, but only to a certain extent. I think he saw their friendship as one in which Dylan could get the affirmation and support that he clearly wanted for NBK. I am much more interested in Dylan than Eric, for various reasons, but I feel deep down that Dylan liked Eric, but I also feel that he felt superior in many ways to Eric, including being more intelligent than him (which I tend to agree with). I think it served Dylan more than Eric, and while others may argue that it was a synergistic relationship, I think Dylan clearly benefited from it more than Eric did, in more ways than any of us can speculate upon.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
But didn't Dylan see Eric as an equal? The only other one he knew that had true self awareness?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], that's a good question, I guess I would want to go through Dylan's journals and see what he said about that. I am not so sure of the answer, but my guy instinct is that he may have seen him as closer to an equal than anyone else he knew, if not exactly on the same metaphysical plane that Dylan fancied himself at.

Both parts of the title of the thread are true.

Dylan did try to get away from Eric, but he did not try very hard.

lasttrain wrote:

Both parts of the title of the thread are true.

Dylan did try to get away from Eric, but he did not try very hard.

Indeed! If he did, things would have ended up a lot differently. As many have said here, including myself, Eric was a mean's to Dylan's end, so he had no reason to try particularly hard to get away from him, even if he wasn't the "true love" that he had imagined himself originally going through NBK with.

I myself find the fact that Dylan also wanted to go NBK with a GIRL to be tremendously significant.
How can that be blamed on Eric or even his influence in any way?

We know that Dylan "tried" to get away from him, but in all honesty if he had gotten away then everything they had planned for would have gone away. I truly believe that if they had actually been separated then the whole thing would not have happened. They needed each other to pull this off. Neither one wanted to do this alone. We know Eric would not have chosen anyone else to do this with, but we know that Dylan had others in mind. I also think though that had one of Dylan's other friends decided to say ok, Eric would not have been included. I also think that Dylan may have been trying to find one of his close friends to do this with and probably looking at all of them closely, that Eric was the one he felt would do this with him. All the guys in their group knew that Eric would allow you to see his anger quickly. So I honestly think that this is how Dylan determined that was who he would do this with.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I myself find the fact that Dylan also wanted to go NBK with a GIRL to be tremendously significant.
How can that be blamed on Eric or even his influence in any way?

Exactly! When Jenn created and then stickied the "Dylan's Journal" thread, I found that info and the dialogue in that particular thread to be one of the most meaningful things I have gotten out of this forum in terms of my general overall understanding of the circumstances surrounding the Columbine tragedy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that is the one thing that seems to be lost on the professionals who have made their opinions known. Dylan may have been talking about love but he mentioned a few times wanting to go nbk with a girl

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Exactly. The lengths that so called professionals and Cullenites go to explain away several things about Dylan and to demonize Eric astounds me. I don't think I'll ever understand it.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] the thing is Eric was extremely vocal in all of his ways of expressing how he felt. The problem with Dylan in my opinion is that he was a big ball of contradiction within himself. I think so many times when he addressed people he constantly contradicted his own actions. What I am seeing is the fact that Eric's parents haven't spoken publicly about him and of course his psychologies isn't going to release his records. Honestly all these people who are making their opinions on him also overlook the fact that he was getting help... But he hadn't been seeing this person for very long so it's possible that Eric didn't open up about a lot of stuff. I know when I start with a counselor I think I try to them everything but for a long time I didn't share everything immediately

PaintItBlack wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Exactly. The lengths that so called professionals and Cullenites  go to explain away several things about Dylan and to demonize Eric astounds me. I don't think I'll ever understand it.

You say you "don't think you'll ever understand" why some people think Eric was a psychopath and Dylan a depressive.  Well, every qualified doctor to have examined the case (Dr. Frank Ochberg, Dr. Mary Ellen O'Toole, Dr. Peter Langman, and Dr. Dwayne Fuselier) has reached the exact same diagnosis.  

You may not agree with it, but I don't see how "can't understand" why some people would choose to side with experienced medical experts over a message board poster.

Would you allow an uneducated message board poster to diagnose you if you had a mental problem?

Awerry wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that is the one thing that seems to be lost on the professionals who have made their opinions known. Dylan may have been talking about love but he mentioned a few times wanting to go nbk with a girl

Or maybe they think it is more significant that he actually did it with Eric?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
almost every time I make a post like this you come in with Dr so and so and so and so and so and so says.....

I have to tell you that I really don't care.I've studied this intently for almost 17 years and I can make up my own mind and feel my beliefs and conclusions have a solid basis.
These people may have degrees but they also don't seem to be able to think outside the book or outside or the overwhelming group think they all subscribe to.
So if you want to take their words as gospel on this, please go ahead but I am not going to.

Awerry wrote:

Exactly. The lengths that so called professionals and Cullenites go to explain away several things about Dylan and to demonize Eric astounds me. I don't think I'll ever understand it.

Really?
You really don't understand how someone can look at someone who went into a School with a shirt with the words "Natural Selection" on it and made all of the bombs and aquired most of the weapons can be made out to be a psychopathic megalomaniac?

I mean I think Dylan is a depressive still, but I can't tell for sure. Does me saying that Dylan might be a depressive mean that I'm trying to lighten the load on Dylan? Fuck no. I think Dylan is just as big of a fucking scumbag as Eric is. At the end of the day, Dylan was right next to Eric, gun in hand, firing shots and laughing like it was the time of his life.

The thing about Eric is, to believe he isn't a psychopath means you operate off of the assumption that 90% of the things Eric wrote in his journal and said in the videos were him just putting on a show, and it just seems too damn unbelievable to just dismiss all of the things he said.

Dylan obviously harbored some type of rage underneath his depression. Hell, I harbor rage underneath my depression as well. But I let it out by having a good night out at the gym every once and a while. There used to be times I didn't do that and it would boil and pile up underneath the surface like every emotion does when supressed, and it would usually explode and make me say and do bad things to my family that I deeply regret.

Dylan Klebold's mother actually recounted a story where he forgot to get her a present on Mother's Day and she pushed him up against the fridge, and he said "Mom please. I don't know how much I can control myself."

That, coupled with the fact he wore a shirt that said "Wrath" on it during the massacre, just points to the fact that he was a depressive with rage udnerneath.

I seriously don't understand why exactly anti-Cullenites don't see how these can be plausible.

anonacc489 wrote:

Awerry wrote:

Exactly. The lengths that so called professionals and Cullenites go to explain away several things about Dylan and to demonize Eric astounds me. I don't think I'll ever understand it.

Really?
You really don't understand how someone can look at someone who went into a School with a shirt with the words "Natural Selection" on it and made all of the bombs and aquired most of the weapons can be made out to be a psychopathic megalomaniac?

I mean I think Dylan is a depressive still, but I can't tell for sure. Does me saying that Dylan might be a depressive mean that I'm trying to lighten the load on Dylan? Fuck no. I think Dylan is just as big of a fucking scumbag as Eric is. At the end of the day, Dylan was right next to Eric, gun in hand, firing shots and laughing like it was the time of his life.

The thing about Eric is, to believe he isn't a psychopath means you operate off of the assumption that 90% of the things Eric wrote in his journal and said in the videos were him just putting on a show, and it just seems too damn unbelievable to just dismiss all of the things he said.

Dylan obviously harbored some type of rage underneath his depression. Hell, I harbor rage underneath my depression as well. But I let it out by having a good night out at the gym every once and a while. There used to be times I didn't do that and it would boil and pile up underneath the surface like every emotion does when supressed, and it would usually explode and make me say and do bad things to my family that I deeply regret.

Dylan Klebold's mother actually recounted a story where he forgot to get her a present on Mother's Day and she pushed him up against the fridge, and he said "Mom please. I don't know how much I can control myself."

That, coupled with the fact he wore a shirt that said "Wrath" on it during the massacre, just points to the fact that he was a depressive with rage udnerneath.

I seriously don't understand why exactly anti-Cullenites don't see how these can be plausible.

Nope. Not unless the other person who made a shirt that said Wrath, helped build the bombs and buy the weapons and went there to do the same thing that day can be fairly considered a psychopath too.

PaintItBlack wrote:

anonacc489 wrote:

Awerry wrote:

Exactly. The lengths that so called professionals and Cullenites go to explain away several things about Dylan and to demonize Eric astounds me. I don't think I'll ever understand it.

Really?
You really don't understand how someone can look at someone who went into a School with a shirt with the words "Natural Selection" on it and made all of the bombs and aquired most of the weapons can be made out to be a psychopathic megalomaniac?

I mean I think Dylan is a depressive still, but I can't tell for sure. Does me saying that Dylan might be a depressive mean that I'm trying to lighten the load on Dylan? Fuck no. I think Dylan is just as big of a fucking scumbag as Eric is. At the end of the day, Dylan was right next to Eric, gun in hand, firing shots and laughing like it was the time of his life.

The thing about Eric is, to believe he isn't a psychopath means you operate off of the assumption that 90% of the things Eric wrote in his journal and said in the videos were him just putting on a show, and it just seems too damn unbelievable to just dismiss all of the things he said.

Dylan obviously harbored some type of rage underneath his depression. Hell, I harbor rage underneath my depression as well. But I let it out by having a good night out at the gym every once and a while. There used to be times I didn't do that and it would boil and pile up underneath the surface like every emotion does when supressed, and it would usually explode and make me say and do bad things to my family that I deeply regret.

Dylan Klebold's mother actually recounted a story where he forgot to get her a present on Mother's Day and she pushed him up against the fridge, and he said "Mom please. I don't know how much I can control myself."

That, coupled with the fact he wore a shirt that said "Wrath" on it during the massacre, just points to the fact that he was a depressive with rage udnerneath.

I seriously don't understand why exactly anti-Cullenites don't see how these can be plausible.

Nope. Not unless the other person who made a shirt that said Wrath, helped build the bombs and buy the weapons and went there to do the same thing that day can be fairly considered a psychopath too.

Exactly.

Honestly my problem with the whole thing is the fact although these people are qualified in their jobs, it's their opinion. The fact is they all missed somethings about Dylan. Also I have never said that Eric couldn't be what they are saying he is. Also anyone can think whatever they want to think. I know exactly what is wrong with me. I am a combat veteran with ptsd and depression. I have been seen and diagnosed with this, so if someone wanted to try to make a diagnosis about me the more power to them. Also I find it amazing that you who agree with these professionals are allowed to say they agree but god forbid someone here say differently. What I put one here is my own opinion. I know who these professionals are and they are very respected. Don't ever assume you know me. I am allowed to have my opinions. The thing is Dylan was depressed. That's a fact but he was also homicidal. And he too was a psychopath.

i also never said that Eric wasn't a psychopath. My meaning is how they couldn't say the same for Dylan

PaintItBlack wrote:

Or Dylan was trying to make himself look better in front of his parents so they would get off his back sooner and things would go more back to normal.

ThoughtBox wrote:

I feel deep down that Dylan liked Eric, but I also feel that he felt superior in many ways to Eric, including being more intelligent than him (which I tend to agree with). I think it served Dylan more than Eric, and while others may argue that it was a synergistic relationship, I think Dylan clearly benefited from it more than Eric did, in more ways than any of us can speculate upon.

Awerry wrote:

i also never said that Eric wasn't a psychopath. My meaning is how they couldn't say the same for Dylan

As I've said multiple times before, I truly believe Dylan was the pure psychopath out of the two of them.

I think why Dylan called Eric crazy and avoided his calls for some time is because Eric was known to explode with anger while Dylan was more laid back or I guess was able to keep his composure and cool headed. In his diary Eric talks about how the guy who owned the van was so stupid for leaving things in plain sight in his van and that he had a right to take it "natural selection". That's crazy. Dylan prob thought lots of stuff that Eric said was crazy and nonsense. And sometimes gets annoyed with him. But they prob felt the same than thought the same.

ThoughtBox wrote:

I think if you asked Eric who his best friend was, he would have said Dylan, but not the other way around. I do agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that Dylan did use Eric as a means to his suicidal end. I just am awestruck though by the Cullenists, etc. (including, I believe Sue Klebold herself, sadly) that believe in the Eric the Psychopath/Dylan the Depressive mantra.

I agree, I believe Eric considered Dylan to be his BFF and Dylan considered Eric to be just his friend....I believe that's how it went with Eric and Dylan.

I agree, but I think Dylan put up with more from Eric than others. He screamed at Dylan after a soccer game and Dylan brushed it off.

I recently learned that Dylan did tell one his friends who I inferred as probably Nate or Zach that Dylan told them Eric got a gun but he would kill him if he told anyone. I feel like Eric was a hot head but also a planner. Eric took Dylans ideas and ran with them and there was little you could do to talk him out of it. I think Dylans depression made him lack motivation but having a partner helped. Unfortunately the partnership was a recipe for disaster. Though if you take away the fact they murdered people and committed suicide and when you hear about what a good friend they could be to people, they were good friends to those who they cared about, which makes things even harder I imagine.

Whether he liked it or not, Dylan did not abandon Eric and I think if Dylan was healthier in the mind he may have been able to be a good influence, but they had a dynamic that was toxic. Whether he liked it or not, Eric was his best friend, he was willing to kill and die with him.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I agree, but I think Dylan put up with more from Eric than others. He screamed at Dylan after a soccer game and Dylan brushed it off.

Didn't Eric also get pissed at Dylan over the essay the latter wrote in English class, because it would've risked them getting found out? Or am I imagining that?

QuestionMark wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I agree, but I think Dylan put up with more from Eric than others. He screamed at Dylan after a soccer game and Dylan brushed it off.

Didn't Eric also get pissed at Dylan over the essay the latter wrote in English class, because it would've risked them getting found out? Or am I imagining that?

Huh! I don't know, but I think if it is true someone will be able to confirm.

I imagine Eric would be irritated at it, it was VERY on the nose.

Eric was Dylan's ticket to dying and not dying alone. Dylan probably felt more comfortable dying in a group rather than alone.

I agree. Dylan had been suicidal for years, but for some reason couldn't follow through with his own death.

In my opinion Dylan seemed to need some huge catastrophic event to be able to finally commit suicide. Something so awful that he wouldn't be able to change his mind afterwards. I have often wondered why he always talked about suicide, yet had never attempted it before. Maybe he really was afraid of dying alone, so that is where Eric came into the picture.

I think Dylan did not try very hard to get away from Eric because he was already depressed enough to like being destructive. When people talk about selfharm they think about cutting and stuff but really selfharm can be to keep up thoughtpatterns that will create space for more suffering.

I feel like he had a belief that him abstaining from taking part in destructive behaviours was more a service to his family and people close to him rather than himself because he already identified so strongly with the depressed part of him. He felt that he did the people around him good by choosing to not show his true colours.

As we have heard in AMR he was easily embarrased and insecure which to me describes that he was easily controlled by his own emotions even in an early stage. He embodied whatever feelings came to him. I think that it is normal but not to the extent he did it and I really wonder what caused it.

However, I remember reading in his journal about him going off porn and alcohol and "cleansing" himself. I'll have to check the date of that entry because that would imply that he did try to not be destructive for his own sake as well even though I believe he himself would have referred to it as being "for Dylans sake".

lasttrain wrote:

Both parts of the title of the thread are true.

Dylan did try to get away from Eric, but he did not try very hard.

Sue believes Dylan might not have known how to get away from Eric. He was afraid of Eric.

jada887 wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Both parts of the title of the thread are true.

Dylan did try to get away from Eric, but he did not try very hard.

Sue believes Dylan might not have known how to get away from Eric. He was afraid of Eric.

I think Sue can't rationalize the thought that her son might've actually wanted to kill people and is using any evidence she can to try and make him less responsible for killing over a dozen people with his friend.

I do not take the idea of Dylan being scared of Eric seriously at all.

QuestionMark wrote:

jada887 wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Both parts of the title of the thread are true.

Dylan did try to get away from Eric, but he did not try very hard.

Sue believes Dylan might not have known how to get away from Eric. He was afraid of Eric.

I think Sue can't rationalize the thought that her son might've actually wanted to kill people and is using any evidence she can to try and make him less responsible for killing over a dozen people with his friend.

I do not take the idea of Dylan being scared of Eric seriously at all.

My feelings on this are mixed. I agree that Sue tries to lessen Dylan's role by shifting blame towards Eric and I don't think that Dylan was "afraid" of Eric. I think if there was any fear it was more along the lines of Dylan being afraid that the dynamic between Eric and himself was allowing Dylan to spin further from reality and deeper down the rabbit hole. Maybe in some way Dylan recognized that the way they fed off of each other's anger was unhealthy and that it could lead both of them to doing what neither one of them would do alone. So Dylan wasn't afraid of Eric as a person or afraid that Eric was pushing him into anything, but that they were bringing out something bad in each other. Does that make sense?

Dylan didn't want to get away from Eric, because in Eric, Dylan found what he needed. Eric gave Dylan the bravery he needed to kill himself and Dylan gave Eric the bravery he needed to pull off a mass murder. Neither could have achieved their goals alone. So they both needed each other to achieve their goals. Together they found what they needed in each other, so why would Dylan want to get away from him? The answer is he didn't.

thelmar wrote:

My feelings on this are mixed. I agree that Sue tries to lessen Dylan's role by shifting blame towards Eric and I don't think that Dylan was "afraid" of Eric.

It's not unreasonable to assume Eric would retaliate against Dylan, and that he would follow through with his threats. After all, Devon Adams went to school administrators to warn them about Eric's disturbing behavior. Brooks, Katie Thompson, Mrs.Heckler, Sasha Jacobs believed Eric was a dangerous threat. I don't believe for a moment that Dylan would not have known the extent of Eric's disturbance. So, therefore, I don't believe Sue Klebold would exaggerate this episodic event for literary effect, or to lessen Dylan's guilt. Eric's provocative behavior effected many other people in his circle.

jada887 wrote:

thelmar wrote:

My feelings on this are mixed. I agree that Sue tries to lessen Dylan's role by shifting blame towards Eric and I don't think that Dylan was "afraid" of Eric.

It's not unreasonable to assume Eric would retaliate against Dylan, and that he would follow through with his threats.

He didn't kill Brooks did he? Nor do I think Eric would've risking blowing the plan just to kill Dylan or "get back" at him. It is totally unreasonable to assume Eric would do something to Dylan.

jada887 wrote:

It's not unreasonable to assume Eric would retaliate against Dylan, and that he would follow through with his threats. After all, Devon Adams went to school administrators to warn them about Eric's disturbing behavior. Brooks, Katie Thompson, Mrs.Heckler, Sasha Jacobs believed Eric was a dangerous threat. I don't believe for a moment that Dylan would not have known the extent of Eric's disturbance. So, therefore, I don't believe Sue Klebold would exaggerate this episodic event for literary effect, or to lessen Dylan's guilt. Eric's provocative behavior effected many other people in his circle.

I don't think anything in Sue's book was for literary effect. I think everything she wrote is what she believes in her heart. But as I read her book, I felt that despite acknowledging what Dylan ultimately did was terrible, she still seemed to make excuses for a lot of his problem behaviors along the way. And she still seems, in the book and when I watch videos of her talks, to believe that Eric was influencing Dylan, pushing him towards what happened. It's my belief that this is a coping mechanism for her because I think Dylan was a willing and active participant.
Both boys were equally violent and of the two, Dylan was the more volatile. Just as Dylan may have suspected what Eric was capable of, I think the reverse is also likely true. For this reason, I don't think that Dylan would be physically afraid of Eric. And, this is admittedly a stretch, but Dylan wanted to die anyway so what was there to be afraid of?  

Katie Thompson didn't think Eric was dangerous. Her mom and a friend said this but Katie never did. She told police they were friends. He took her to lunch a few weeks before the attack and after the attack, a teacher said Katie wrote nice things about Eric in a project to help the kids heal. The teacher described Katie as having a crush on Eric.
According to Zach, his dad tried to put a halt on his relationship with Eric after they got suspended for stealing locker combos. According to Heckler's sister, Jocelyn, Zach wasn't supposed to hang around with Eric because he'd been making pipe bombs.  And the irony, of course, is that Dylan was still welcome but he was making bombs, too, and had even taken one into Blackjack.
I've never seen any statements where their mom said Eric was a dangerous threat. Bad influence, maybe. The only thing I've seen regarding Zach's mom comes from Wayne Harris' journal on 4/18/97. Apparently he'd talked to Nick Baumgart's mom and Zach's mom after Brooks told Eric's parents about the "missions". Wayne wrote that Veronica Heckler "No complaints about Eric" "Knows nothing". What are you referencing when you say she thought Eric was dangerous?

About Dylan dodging Eric's phonecalls: Why was he doing that? Did Dylan just need some space from him once in a while? Or was Dylan just busy on his computer or whatever and didn't want to hang out? It makes me feel kinda bad for Eric. His closest friend avoiding his calls. :/

And why would Dylan say Eric was "crazy"? They both talked about the same stuff.

QuestionMark wrote:

jada887 wrote:

thelmar wrote:

My feelings on this are mixed. I agree that Sue tries to lessen Dylan's role by shifting blame towards Eric and I don't think that Dylan was "afraid" of Eric.

It's not unreasonable to assume Eric would retaliate against Dylan, and that he would follow through with his threats.

He didn't kill Brooks did he? Nor do I think Eric would've risking blowing the plan just to kill Dylan or "get back" at him. It is totally unreasonable to assume Eric would do something to Dylan.

I agree. Like it or not all Eric had toward the end of his life was Dylan. I think he found a lot of his own identity in Dylan. He copied him quite a bit and I think Eric was the type of person who was braver when he had a partner. I don't think Dylan could have done much to Eric to have him get so mad he would harm him

sympathyforEandD wrote:

And why would Dylan say Eric was "crazy"? They both talked about the same stuff.

Hypocrisy, maybe. Dylan could also be referring to Eric's temper and tendency to blow up at people with little provocation.

QuestionMark wrote:

He didn't kill Brooks did he? Nor do I think Eric would've risking blowing the plan just to kill Dylan or "get back" at him.

Eric: "Brooks, I like you now. Go home." This indicates one of two things. First, he didn't want to kill Brooks because they had made their peace. Second, Brooks death would have alerted other students in the parking lot to his presence, blowing his cover.

QuestionMark wrote:

It is totally unreasonable to assume Eric would do something to Dylan.

What makes you think Eric wouldn't? There is no evidence to support the conclusion that Eric wouldn't punish him (not kill him: I never said that). He had already made threats to others and followed through on them. What makes you think Dylan is different? I have a hard time understanding the consensus on this forum (and it seems unanimous), which is that Eric is a shrinking violet. If that is your opinion, I don't share it.

I do not think Eric was a shrinking violet I just don't believe he would have done the massacre without Dylan. And I think by the end both of them were relying on each other. I don't think Dylan could have done anything to make Eric break away at that point in time.

thelmar wrote:

I don't think anything in Sue's book was for literary effect. I think everything she wrote is what she believes in her heart. But as I read her book, I felt that despite acknowledging what Dylan ultimately did was terrible, she still seemed to make excuses for a lot of his problem behaviors along the way. And she still seems, in the book and when I watch videos of her talks, to believe that Eric was influencing Dylan, pushing him towards what happened. It's my belief that this is a coping mechanism for her because I think Dylan was a willing and active participant.

I read the same book, I think. She states that Dylan was a willing and active participant in the shooting. I don't have her book in front of me at the moment, but those places are on pages 172 and 265, if memory serves me.

thelmar wrote:

Katie Thompson didn't think Eric was dangerous. Her mom and a friend said this but Katie never did. She told police they were friends. He took her to lunch a few weeks before the attack and after the attack, a teacher said Katie wrote nice things about Eric in a project to help the kids heal. The teacher described Katie as having a crush on Eric.

Yes, all true, but so what? Eric could be a charming little bastard when he wasn't actively planning to blow up his school and neighborhood to imitate the Oklahoma City bombing.

thelmar wrote:

According to Zach, his dad tried to put a halt on his relationship with Eric after they got suspended for stealing locker combos. According to Heckler's sister, Jocelyn, Zach wasn't supposed to hang around with Eric because he'd been making pipe bombs.  And the irony, of course, is that Dylan was still welcome but he was making bombs, too, and had even taken one into Blackjack.

Eric started collecting bomb material in 1996. It's not unreasonable to assume that Zach's mother noted Eric's untoward behavior. Dylan, however, never had to worry. His genial personality never raised anyone's suspicions. Not so with Eric.

thelmar wrote:

I've never seen any statements where their mom said Eric was a dangerous threat. Bad influence, maybe. The only thing I've seen regarding Zach's mom comes from Wayne Harris' journal on 4/18/97. Apparently he'd talked to Nick Baumgart's mom and Zach's mom after Brooks told Eric's parents about the "missions". Wayne wrote that Veronica Heckler "No complaints about Eric" "Knows nothing". What are you referencing when you say she thought Eric was dangerous?

It's implicit that Zach's mother thought Eric a toxic influence and wanted to forbid the relationship. She didn't have to state verbatim that Eric was a threat. As a mother, you don't have to spell out your reservations about a person's behavior. The reasons are implicit when you forbid a relationship. I thought this point obvious to anyone with teenage children.

Lizpuff wrote:

I do not think Eric was a shrinking violet I just don't believe he would have done the massacre without Dylan. And I think by the end both of them were relying on each other.  I don't think Dylan could have done anything to make Eric break away at that point in time.

No, he wouldn't have broken away from his plans, but I don't think he wouldn't have completed them on his own. If not Dylan, someone else.

One of the things that really strikes me about Eric and Dylan is how they were truly best friends forever and even died together, albeit at slightly different intervals.

jada887 wrote:

What makes you think Eric wouldn't? There is no evidence to support the conclusion that Eric wouldn't punish him (not kill him: I never said that). He had already made threats to others and followed through on them.

And what would he do? Vandalize Dylan's home? Big deal.

jada887 wrote:

I have a hard time understanding the consensus on this forum (and it seems unanimous), which is that Eric is a shrinking violet. If that is your opinion, I don't share it.

What? What is giving you this impression?

QuestionMark wrote:

And what would he do? Vandalize Dylan's home? Big deal.

Wow. Are we now minimizing vandalism? Property damage worth over $500 (Dylan's house exceeded this amount many times over) is a felony. Criminal threats (intimidation) are more serious offenses, and many judges sentence defendants up to 4 years in prison.