Done

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Tomb wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

One other thing I guess I would ask is this... people speculate on the cuts/abrasions on Eric and Dylan's arms/legs.  I tried to read the description but it is confusing.  Does the description of these cuts and abrasions fit what might be self harm or not quite?

These don't appear to be self harm. I would say their actions that day led to many of the scrapes, contusions and bruises. Dylan's autopsy noted healing bruises on his lower legs. There is also no mention of recent or healed self-inflicted cuts or scars.

TY! That is what I thought as well...based on google knowledge

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I have always been curious about the partially digested potato skins mentioned in Dylan's autopsy. I wonder how long it had been since he ate the potato skins? I can't imagine him having time to get them and eat them on his last trip to Columbine.

It is said that Dylan cooked up some left over potato skins the morning of the massacre.

tomb wrote:

An interesting tidbit I forgot to include about Eric's suicide. They only submitted 600 grams of decomposing brain tissue to the coroner, while the average weight of a male brain is more than double that, over 1,300 grams. Rohrbough's brain, for example, weighed 1,460 grams.

eric has a small brain...because he has a small head?

It's because they didn't have much brain matter to really take from. He blew his brain out of his skull.. So they had to take whatever they could scrape up. Unlike Daniel who's brain was fully intact in his skull.

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This is so heartrendingly sad.
I wish that all 15 were alive today and no autopsy reports existed.


People call E &D cowards but I don't agree.I think it takes courage to do what they did and then kill themselves especially the way Eric did, horrible as it all is.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] oh right of course. Good lord me, small head?! You guys are totally right. I can't even deem that sad it's just....it's horrid. It's tragic. Who took himself out with no mercy.

I thought I read in the autopsy reports that Dylan had marks/scars consistent with self-harm? I can't remember in regards to Eric, but I thought he did, also.

Does anyone know how long records are kept after a suicide, by the coroner's office and/or the police etc.? I've been interested in getting any from my father's suicide, but since it was in the 1990s, I'm not sure how lucky I'd be.

If I may offer, I'd be glad to answer any questions that I can in regards to Eric's method of suicide, in particular. My father died in the same manner, .12 gauge, double-barrel, and yes, it really is a truly horrific and virtually guaranteed method of suicide. I've often wondered about Eric's service, because my grandmother did insist on an open casket viewing, for immediate family, and he was embalmed, so I know it's possible, and it is done at times. (The face/head area was hidden, so that we were able to view his body from the neck down, and see his hands, at least. It was absolutely as f-ed up as it sounds.)

I agree with what others said, regarding the weight of brain matter. You can only collect so much before you have to resort to using a putty knife or wringing out carpeting, book pages, etc. Luckily, I did NOT see that part, but others did. I know that my family had to pay for the damages, and I heard what had to be done so that the landlord was able to rent the apartment out again. I've done years of researching into this area, sort of a way to combat PTSD and desensitize myself as much as possible. I feel terrible for the Dylan's and Eric's families, to have those photos splashed all over a tabloid magazine, and now the internet. How devastating that would be. I can't believe that they were actually published, in print. Absolutely nothing is sacred.

seether wrote:

If I may offer, I'd be glad to answer any questions that I can in regards to Eric's method of suicide, in particular. My father died in the same manner, .12 gauge, double-barrel, and yes, it really is a truly horrific and virtually guaranteed method of suicide. I've often wondered about Eric's service, because my grandmother did insist on an open casket viewing, for immediate family, and he was embalmed, so I know it's possible, and it is done at times. (The face/head area was hidden, so that we were able to view his body from the neck down, and see his hands, at least. It was absolutely as f-ed up as it sounds.)

I agree with what others said, regarding the weight of brain matter. You can only collect so much before you have to resort to using a putty knife or wringing out carpeting, book pages, etc. Luckily, I did NOT see that part, but others did. I know that my family had to pay for the damages, and I heard what had to be done so that the landlord was able to rent the apartment out again. I've done years of researching into this area, sort of a way to combat PTSD and desensitize myself as much as possible. I feel terrible for the Dylan's and Eric's families, to have those photos splashed all over a tabloid magazine, and now the internet. How devastating that would be. I can't believe that they were actually published, in print. Absolutely nothing is sacred.

I'm extremely sorry for your loss and I'm appreciative that you're willing to talk about it and are handling it well. Continue remaining strong. I'm really proud that your choice of engaging in such researches helps you as you said combat PTSD and desensitise yourself. Sometimes it's the best way to cope and I understand that aspect.

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Lizpuff wrote:

One thing I have always wondered about is this:

This is a snip from Dylan's autopsy.

It mentions pulmonary edema.  And from what I gather it is associated or can be associated with heart failure.  Could this be caused from his suicide or would this have been something going on from when he was alive?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I know Tomb already answered this quite well, but I'll add my 2 cents because I work with heart failure patients and see this in almost all of them: From what I gather the pulmonary edema occurred because Dylan shot himself in such a way that his heart continued to beat for a short period of time (he didn't blow out his brainstem like Eric did).  As Dylan lost blood his blood pressure drastically dropped and he went into hypovolemic shock. His heart began to fail and when the left side of the heart fails to pump blood out of the heart, the blood backs up into the lung vessels and causes pulmonary congestion.  Pressures in the lungs increase and fluids begin to seep out into the air spaces, which causes pulmonary edema. It's like drowning in your own body fluids. The body's natural response it to start coughing.....which is probably why Patrick Ireland heard coughing in the library at some point. Between the two guys, I say Eric did it the right way. His death was instant. I always wondered why Dylan chose to shoot himself this way. If I was going for instant, sure death, I would have chosen Eric's way.

Freezingmoon wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

One thing I have always wondered about is this:

This is a snip from Dylan's autopsy.

It mentions pulmonary edema.  And from what I gather it is associated or can be associated with heart failure.  Could this be caused from his suicide or would this have been something going on from when he was alive?[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I know Tomb already answered this quite well, but I'll add my 2 cents because I work with heart failure patients and see this in almost all of them: From what I gather the pulmonary edema occurred because Dylan shot himself in such a way that his heart continued to beat for a short period of time (he didn't blow out his brainstem like Eric did).  As Dylan lost blood his blood pressure drastically dropped and he went into hypovolemic shock. His heart began to fail and when the left side of the heart fails to pump blood out of the heart, the blood backs up into the lung vessels and causes pulmonary congestion.  Pressures in the lungs increase and fluids begin to seep out into the air spaces, which causes pulmonary edema. It's like drowning in your own body fluids. The body's natural response it to start coughing.....which is probably why Patrick Ireland heard coughing in the library at some point. Between the two guys, I say Eric did it the right way. His death was instant. I always wondered why Dylan chose to shoot himself this way. If I was going for instant, sure death, I would have chosen Eric's way.

Wow. Thank you for the response and it makes total sense. I don't usually feel bad for Eric and Dylan but this made me feel bad for him. No matter what he did this sounds like a horrible way to die!

That is so sad Dylan! That is soooo sad. Urgh I'm frustrated.

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I just wonder if Dylan just didn't know how to kill himself properly....It seems kinda silly because he wanted to die so bad...but in movies this is how a lot of people kill themselves. Could it be possible he thought this was a good way to commit suicide? I don't know. TBH before all this kind of talk I would have thought the same.

My husband's uncle committed suicide the same way as Dylan but with a much larger caliber of gun. He died instantly

It could be between freaking out at that moment seeing the result of his best friend's suicide and assuming the classic movie-method of gun to the head. Either way, he's the one who always wanted to die and yet he let himself suffer that way.

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Tomb wrote:

Like I say, it's very intriguing and provocative because, based on their journals, you would think the suicides would be reversed, Dylan with the shotgun and Eric with the Tec-9. Well, maybe not Eric. He strikes me as somebody that would have made up his mind he was going to blow his brains out with the 12 gauge in advance of the massacre. I don't think he would have left anything to chance.

Most police departments now no longer use 9 mm ammunition because it is unpredictable. Say a police officer is shooting someone in the drivers seat and they have a rear passenger. It's well documented that the 9 mm round can enter the driver of the vehicle, pass through them and the seat and enter the rear passenger, potentially killing an innocent person.

There have been cases of attempted suicide with 9mm ammunition that has ended up either maiming the individual or causing extensive damage that requires long-term, round the clock care. I think I addressed this on this thread too, but there are cases of attempted suicide via a 12 gauge that didn't kill the person. That's why I say it's *almost* guaranteed death.

So based on all of this. When this was going on with Dylan he was probably unconscious? It sounds like the coughing and whatnot was probably a natural body response.

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Tomb wrote:

It's possible he was conscious for a period of time, but it's also possible he wasn't. We know he moved some after he shot himself. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] has a pretty good description somewhere on here I've read. For instance, he moved his head after shooting himself based on the blood patterns around his mouth. I don't think he lived for long, maybe a minute or so, but it's hard to tell. What we do know is that he did live for enough time for the pulmonary edema to develop enough to show at autopsy.

I guess for my own personal sake I hope he was not conscious just because I don't wish that suffering on anyone. Anyway thanks for your opinions I find it all fascinating!

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[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This maybe? I have differing thoughts than hers on some things but others I believe

Thank you for that information, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] , including the information and theories about Dylan's last moments. It was my dad, rather than grandfather, who died by suicide - although his father/my grandfather actually DID die by suicide as well (overdose, in his case). I'm still mixed about the open casket; I appreciate the lengths that they go to, to honor family wishes. The head and face was built up - it was more or less a decapitation - and while it was all covered with a silk scarf, they really did a great job of constructing and shaping things. Hence, why I often wonder about Eric's funeral.

I'll try to find where I read about SI marks - who knows where my brain might have swiped it from, if not any actual medical records. I'm really curious about the pulmonary edema. My mom had congestive heart failure, and obviously, it didn't happen within moments, but Dylan's case is obviously different. I didn't notice that term when I was scanning the autopsy report. So what is the possible timeline for that, in this kind of case? Obviously death was not instant, but I wonder how long it would have taken to flood and overwhelm his body like that.

In regards to his manner of death and weapon of choice, I think a couple of things affected that. He had the tendency to romanticize everything; I think that it was sort of symbolic, so similar to movies. I think that he thought of it as a "cleaner" death and body, and I think that seeing Eric after death was enough in itself to freak him out.

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seether wrote:

Thank you for that information, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] , including the information and theories about Dylan's last moments.  It was my dad, rather than grandfather, who died by suicide - although his father/my grandfather actually DID die by suicide as well (overdose, in his case).  I'm still mixed about the open casket; I appreciate the lengths that they go to, to honor family wishes.  The head and face was built up - it was more or less a decapitation - and while it was all covered with a silk scarf, they really did a great job of constructing and shaping things.  Hence, why I often wonder about Eric's funeral.

I'll try to find where I read about SI marks - who knows where my brain might have swiped it from, if not any actual medical records.  I'm really curious about the pulmonary edema.  My mom had congestive heart failure, and obviously, it didn't happen within moments, but Dylan's case is obviously different.  I didn't notice that term  when I was scanning the autopsy report.  So what is the possible timeline for that, in this kind of case?  Obviously death was not instant, but I wonder how long it would have taken to flood and overwhelm his body like that.

In regards to his manner of death and weapon of choice, I think a couple of things affected that.  He had the tendency to romanticize everything; I think that it was sort of symbolic, so similar to movies.  I think that he thought of it as a "cleaner" death and body, and I think that seeing Eric after death was enough in itself to freak him out.

Now that I'm looking at Dylan's autopsy again, I see that it says he actually died from the aspiration of blood and subdural hemmhorage, but he did have pulmonary edema as well.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

So it looks like he mainly sucked blood into his lungs and in addition to this he had pulmonary edema.  I think it all happened rather quickly and he wasn't really that aware of what was going on after he shot himself. The immediate swelling of the brain, blood loss, and lack of oxygen to the brain would mean that he was most likely unaware and not feeling anything.....but it still took a few minutes for his heart to completely stop.

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Is there a report of Cassie? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], did you find one on hers? Cause if so I was wondering if you know whether she too died instantly or, what're the details on her. Cause hers was brutal aswell, right in the face.

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I think about Steve Curnow a lot. He was found with his hands still folded in his lap. I think he must have went quick. I hope so at least. I think Cassie probably went quick. Poor Lauren whimpered for a while. I feel so terrible for her

for reference
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

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Tomb wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

for reference
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Yes, it's Lauren whose death position looks like she suffered. I would like to see the full reports for all the victims just to see if they died instantly or lingered.

In the 11k, it was mentioned by a few near Lauren that she whimpered for at least a bit. I feel so sad for her.

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I do not believe Lauren suffered more than a few seconds as she had multiple wounds.If she lived a few minutes I believe she was unconscious and felt nothing.She must have went unconscious very fast.

Cassie went unconscious and died very quickly too.I'd say in a matter of seconds.While her family said that they didn't think she looked enough like herself to be shown at the funeral, her Dad was surprised at how well she looked since she was shot at such close range.

seether wrote:

I thought I read in the autopsy reports that Dylan had marks/scars consistent with self-harm?  I can't remember in regards to Eric, but I thought he did, also.

Does anyone know how long records are kept after a suicide, by the coroner's office and/or the police etc.?  I've been interested in getting any from my father's suicide, but since it was in the 1990s, I'm not sure how lucky I'd be.

If I may offer, I'd be glad to answer any questions that I can in regards to Eric's method of suicide, in particular.  My father died in the same manner, .12 gauge, double-barrel, and yes, it really is a truly horrific and virtually guaranteed method of suicide.  I've often wondered about Eric's service, because my grandmother did insist on an open casket viewing, for immediate family, and he was embalmed, so I know it's possible, and it is done at times.  (The face/head area was hidden, so that we were able to view his body from the neck down, and see his hands, at least.  It was absolutely as f-ed up as it sounds.)

I agree with what others said, regarding the weight of brain matter.  You can only collect so much before you have to resort to using a putty knife or wringing out carpeting, book pages, etc.  Luckily, I did NOT see that part, but others did.  I know that my family had to pay for the damages, and I heard what had to be done so that the landlord was able to rent the apartment out again.  I've done years of researching into this area, sort of a way to combat PTSD and desensitize myself as much as possible.  I feel terrible for the Dylan's and Eric's families, to have those photos splashed all over a tabloid magazine, and now the internet.  How devastating that would be.  I can't believe that they were actually published, in print.  Absolutely nothing is sacred.

I'm so sorry for your loss and sorry you had to see your Dad like that.I would not have wanted to see my Dad in such a condition.

Cassie Bernall Autopsy:

PATHOLOGIC DIAGNOSES:

1. Shotgun wound of head

A. Skull fractures, massive
B. Cerebral lacerations and contusions
C. Subdural and subarachnoid hemorrhage
D. Aspiration of blood

2. Shotgun wound of right hand

OPINION:

Death was due to a shotgun wound of the head.

**Cassie Bernall may have been alive for a few seconds because she did aspirate blood (like Dylan).

thank you [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

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Tomb wrote:

Unfortunately, for most of the victims, we only have 1-2 pages that's pretty much a synopsis of what killed them. Therefore, without access to the full reports, we can't say for sure how many dies instantly or how many may have lingered. We know no one suffered very long, but as evidenced by Cassie's synopsis, she lived long enough to breathe in blood.

It's likely some didn't feel the pain of being shot at the time. Some of the survivors didn't even realize they were shot until later. Adrenaline accounts for a lot of this. Terror was probably the overwhelming emotion felt by most.

For someone like Cassie though could it have been like she was shot, and the shock of being hit made her gasp and she happened to gasp at the right time to cause her to aspirate some blood? I'd like to think so just so that I would not have to think about suffering.

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Tomb wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Tomb wrote:

Unfortunately, for most of the victims, we only have 1-2 pages that's pretty much a synopsis of what killed them. Therefore, without access to the full reports, we can't say for sure how many dies instantly or how many may have lingered. We know no one suffered very long, but as evidenced by Cassie's synopsis, she lived long enough to breathe in blood.

It's likely some didn't feel the pain of being shot at the time. Some of the survivors didn't even realize they were shot until later. Adrenaline accounts for a lot of this. Terror was probably the overwhelming emotion felt by most.

For someone like Cassie though could it have been like she was shot, and the shock of being hit made her gasp and she happened to gasp at the right time to cause her to aspirate some blood?  I'd like to think so just so that I would not have to think about suffering.

Yes, it's possible it was her final breath. Even Eric's autopsy reveals "the lumen of the lower respiratory tract contains a small amount of hemorrhagic fluid on the right side." We know he dies instantly, so again, he was likely breathing in when the shot decimated his head. He was possibly breathing rapidly as he was preparing to commit suicide.

Rohrbough's autopsy contains the same line as Eric's having "the lumen of the lower respiratory tract contains hemorrhagic fluid."

Rohrbough's autopsy is heartbreaking at the number of wounds he sustained, but I feel like he died almost instantly, having suffered a through and through shot of the aorta, which will cause you to bleed to death very rapidly. But he also had significant damage from a gunshot wound to the heart, lungs, stomach, liver and a less life threatening gunshot to the lower left leg. The coroner breaks down these as wounds and comes to the conclusion all the damage was done by 3 gunshots, all with 9 mm ammunition. They do a good job of describing the trajectory of each bullet and the damage caused by each one.

Interesting tidbit on Eric I didn't know that. So I guess it could have been her last breath then.

Tomb wrote:

Yes, it's possible it was her final breath. Even Eric's autopsy reveals "the lumen of the lower respiratory tract contains a small amount of hemorrhagic fluid on the right side." We know he dies instantly, so again, he was likely breathing in when the shot decimated his head. He was possibly breathing rapidly as he was preparing to commit suicide.

Rohrbough's autopsy contains the same line as Eric's having "the lumen of the lower respiratory tract contains hemorrhagic fluid."

Rohrbough's autopsy is heartbreaking at the number of wounds he sustained, but I feel like he died almost instantly, having suffered a through and through shot of the aorta, which will cause you to bleed to death very rapidly. But he also had significant damage from a gunshot wound to the heart, lungs, stomach, liver and a less life threatening gunshot to the lower left leg. The coroner breaks down these as wounds and comes to the conclusion all the damage was done by 3 gunshots, all with 9 mm ammunition. They do a good job of describing the trajectory of each bullet and the damage caused by each one.

Interesting Tomb. Very very excellent.

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I'd like to see more detailed diagrams - not necessarily detailed in wounds, but in position of hands etc., at a high resolution. I doubt it would help solve many questions, but little details could answer random nagging questions that one thinks of.

Does anyone know exactly how long it was, before the two photographs were taken of the bodies of Dylan and Eric in the library? I'm SO curious about that one, like pretty much everyone else. I think that Dylan definitely is not in the position in which he landed, after falling to the floor. I've heard the theory that he was pushed over, or kicked over, by police/SWAT; that's upsetting to think of. I know that they have to stay safe, and might have felt that he was best turned over from a distance, but it makes a difference if he was nudged over, or forcefully kicked over. Just regard for a human body, regardless of the circumstance. It's horrifying to consider how the bodies of so many people were treated (or neglected) after this.

I also think there's weight to the idea that he turned over himself, just before death, whether voluntarily or not - if he was conscious to any degree, I think it would be instinct to turn from anything pressing against his face. Maybe even if he was unconscious; thinking about the reflexes I've seen on ultrasounds and then in person, with my babies, it's amazing what reflexes we have, and how strong they can be.

Then there's a similar idea, that I really haven't seen mentioned by name, but would make sense given that he died in a very sudden and violent manner. Even if he had fallen face first onto Eric's leg, and hadn't moved himself voluntarily or involuntarily while choking, it's very possible IMO that a "cadaveric spasm" would account for his position (just as I imagine it would account for other people, such as one student who was clutching a pencil).

That question is one that puzzles me the most. I'm definitely not well versed in wounds like his, where death might be slower. It appears that he had been on his face, looking at the flow of blood; however, and this could be completely off, it looks as though he didn't spend much time in that position. Would he have such a large amount of blood underneath him, if he were turned over hours after his death? The blood etc. from his face first position seems very minor in comparison, impact injury aside, when you look at the trickle of blood on his face... I'm not sure why it matters, but it just nags at me. I understand that a large amount of blood came from Eric, when moving him, but that's understandable, given that it was a collection of blood and perhaps other fluids that would not have evaporated or dried quickly.

I guess the other thing is their coloring. I wonder, did the newspaper touch up the images, or were they really that color when they were found? I've only seen a few bodies, so again, I'm a noob when it comes to this part, but their color seemed almost absurd when considering things such as blood loss and time from death to discovery. I remember reading about how people appeared to be sleeping after death, and then being shocked the first time I saw a body, because I wasn't expecting the blue/gray on almost white pallor, or other coloring changes (I apologize if I'm too graphic at any point!).

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - I can't read of Dave Sanders without feeling angry. I've heard and read the excuses, but I just cannot accept any of them. There just is no "reasonable" excuse for him not at least surviving to make it to the hospital. The whole rescue and recovery aspect was bullshit, IMO, but the death of Sanders is another kind of heartbreaking.

What kind of work is it that you do, exactly? I apologize - I haven't made my way around enough to see a description, apart from working with the deceased. Do you have a post or thread that has detail on your job, how you got into your field, experiences, etc? I would love to work in that general area. I actually wouldn't have much trouble, I think, in working with suicide victims, and my mother taught me to follow traditional "laying out" practices as much as we could legally manage with family, but I think I would fail miserably when it came to anyone in a very active stage of decomposition. Mess without stench or additional 'creatures' involved isn't so much of a put off. It was an appalling idea to have my father in an open casket, but I have intense respect and admiration, as well as gratitude, for whoever spent the time and effort to rebuild the general structure and shape of his head and face, especially in profile.

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Re: SI. I have this much from Eric's autopsy report - it was saved in one of my notes, and I'm trying to dig through again to find elaboration or other mentions.

"“Present on the lateral aspect of the left upper arm is a small cluster of punctate lacerations and cuts.”"

These sound like wounds consistent with self-injury, and have been discussed at length between myself and some others who are totally not pros when it comes to all things medical, but deserve at least some form of distinction in SI. /dry humor Eric being a righty, that lines up perfectly - that's where the worst of the scarring is for many with SI, the non-dominant arm, as well as the upper thighs. I'm going to dig more when I have more time, to see where it was noted for Dylan - I cannot be losing my mind here!

I'm not sure if it was this thread, but I know many people have wondered about the postmortem dried artifact on an area of Dylan's... personal area, shall we say. I read some really interesting postmortem things unrelated to that, but they did include the information that a male CAN get an erection upon death, and even ejaculate or leak semen. I knew about the urinary and fecal incontinence, and that a female will continue to menstruate (although gravity can have an effect), but this was new to me!