The Posthumous Diagnosis

As requested by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], here's a little more detail on my discussion with a therapist regarding whether or not the diagnoses that Eric & Dylan were correct, and if were even possible to accurately diagnose them posthumously.

She is of the belief that they can not be accurately diagnosed based on their journals, especially given the possibility that Eric's journal was written for an audience and that it would have been necessary to have seen him in person to complete the psychopathy checklist.

As far as Dylan went, her opinion was that depressive and particularly schizotypal disorders, particularly, would not be possible to diagnose without observation, be it over a time period of several appointments or during a hospital stay, and interview covering life history and questions regarding symptoms.

I tend to agree with her on both counts , but particularly regarding Eric, due to the conditions of the Hare Psychopathy Checklist required to make the diagnosis valid and the possibilities that other mental health conditions are the cause of some symptoms.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

lilypadlane wrote:

As requested by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],  here's a little more detail on my discussion with a therapist regarding whether or not the diagnoses that Eric & Dylan were correct, and if were even possible to accurately diagnose them posthumously.

She is of the belief that they can not be accurately diagnosed based on their journals, especially given the possibility that Eric's journal was written for an audience and that it would have been necessary to have seen him in person to complete the psychopathy checklist.

As far as Dylan went, her opinion was that depressive and particularly schizotypal disorders, particularly, would not be possible to diagnose without observation, be it over a time period of several appointments or during a hospital stay,  and interview covering life history and questions regarding symptoms.

I tend to agree with her on both counts , but particularly regarding Eric, due to the conditions of the Hare Psychopathy Checklist required to make the diagnosis valid and the possibilities that other mental health conditions are the cause of some symptoms.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I agree with her. People like Cullen and langman trying to diagnose the boys is just silly. Just a random question..how did you get her on the subject of Columbine? Is it just something you discuss as like an interest or something?

I just asked straight out. We don't discuss my interest in true crime as a general rule, but she is aware of it , and is used to me asking blunt and seemingly random questions

lilypadlane wrote:

I just asked straight out. We don't discuss my interest in true crime as a general rule, but she is aware of it , and is used to me asking blunt and seemingly random questions

Interesting...and she just knew about their diagnoses? Sorry for asking I am just curious!

I don't mind She didn't know about the diagnosis, and I believe the question that led us into the conversation was me asking her whether or not it was possible to make a psychiatric diagnosis after death. She asked me why I wanted to know, and I explained that I had been researching Columbine (at which point she gave me that "oh boy, here we go again" look) and she asked me what the diagnoses were. I told her what they were, and at that point, we got into a more in depth discussion which produced the above conversation.

lilypadlane wrote:

I don't mind She didn't know about the diagnosis, and I believe the question that led us into the conversation was me asking her whether or not it was possible to make a psychiatric diagnosis after death. She asked me why I wanted to know, and I explained that I had been researching Columbine (at which point she gave me that "oh boy, here we go again" look) and she asked me what the diagnoses were. I told her what they were, and at that point, we got into a more in depth discussion which produced the above conversation.

That is really interesting to me! Thanks for answering!

Thank you so much lilypadlane.
This is so interesting to me.I hope that the Cullen believers on the board will give this a look, although I don't expect it to change anyone's mind.

Listen, technically I get it, you can't diagnose somebody post death. I get it, I really do but lets call a spade a spade for a second here.

Manson was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Tupac was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Osama Bin Laden was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Eric Harris was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker along with his partner in crime Dylan Klebold.

I don't need Hare's psychopathy checklist to confirm anything. You know what all these guys have in common? They have a strong ability to manipulate others to buy into their bullshit even though they know their bullshit can cause harm to others (even innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems).

Sane One wrote:

Listen, technically I get it, you can't diagnose somebody post death. I get it, I really do but lets call a spade a spade for a second here.

Manson was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Tupac was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Osama Bin Laden was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Eric Harris was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker along with his partner in crime Dylan Klebold.

I don't need Hare's psychopathy checklist to confirm anything. You know what all these guys have in common? They have a strong ability to manipulate others to buy into their bullshit even though they know their bullshit can cause harm to others (even innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems).

You need to calm down if you want people to understand you and if you're trying to make some sense. That wasn't clear enough for me to get the point you're making.

You know human beings are hardly black and white and these are groups of people you brought up inclusive of Eric and Dylan who are way beyond complex characters. I wouldn't deny manipulation incurred for most murderers, politicians and that's what makes them the most popular and dangerous people in the world. That I will agree with. The rest that you said sounds like annoyance to me and I can't get the point you are making.

What do the people you bring up having anything to do with posthumous diagnosis?

Edit: and btw Manson and Bin Laden CANNOT be put in the same wavelength at all! Sure in manipulative aspect but these two have totally separate backstories behind them along with their agendas. Please! Bin Laden was a true blue terrorist leader and Manson gained a cult following throughout an acid-filled sixties-seventies era.

Wasn't it Dwayne Fuselier that suggested Eric was psychopathic, and then Cullen ran with it?

Juicy Jazzy wrote:

Wasn't it Dwayne Fuselier that suggested Eric was psychopathic, and then Cullen ran with it?

Find one of Lasttrains posts lol he quotes the list all the time! There were like 5 original people stating he was a psychopath and Cullen ran with it.

Sane One wrote:

Listen, technically I get it, you can't diagnose somebody post death. I get it, I really do but lets call a spade a spade for a second here.

Manson was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Tupac was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Osama Bin Laden was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Eric Harris was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker along with his partner in crime Dylan Klebold.

I don't need Hare's psychopathy checklist to confirm anything. You know what all these guys have in common? They have a strong ability to manipulate others to buy into their bullshit even though they know their bullshit can cause harm to others (even innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems).

I do not disagree that Eric and Dylan had issues. And I'm sorry that this opinion has upset you, truly.

The point of adding Hare's psychopathy checklist was for anyone who may read this now or later, who might not be familiar with it. It is the gold standard, so it makes sense to add what criteria is used for diagnosis.

I'm not a fangirl, I don't at all condone what Eric and Dylan did. I didn't,don't, and won't defend their actions that day . I believe that the boys were wrong, regardless of why they did it. And I stood in the same horror that everyone else did on that day . So please do not snap at me as if I am celebrating them.

Sane One wrote:

Listen, technically I get it, you can't diagnose somebody post death. I get it, I really do but lets call a spade a spade for a second here.

Manson was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Tupac was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Osama Bin Laden was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Eric Harris was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker along with his partner in crime Dylan Klebold.

I don't need Hare's psychopathy checklist to confirm anything. You know what all these guys have in common? They have a strong ability to manipulate others to buy into their bullshit even though they know their bullshit can cause harm to others (even innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems).

Comparing the above is your first mistake. Different people, different minds, different crimes. Comparing Bin Laden with Dylan Klebold?! Please. You can believe what you want, but you aren't confirming anything.

Sane One wrote:

Listen, technically I get it, you can't diagnose somebody post death. I get it, I really do but lets call a spade a spade for a second here.

Manson was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Tupac was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Osama Bin Laden was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker.

Eric Harris was bat shit crazy and one evil mother fucker along with his partner in crime Dylan Klebold.

I don't need Hare's psychopathy checklist to confirm anything. You know what all these guys have in common? They have a strong ability to manipulate others to buy into their bullshit even though they know their bullshit can cause harm to others (even innocent people who have nothing to do with their problems).

Sane One,
if you think that E &D were among the top evil people of the last 100 years, you don't read much true crime. I'm not trying to be rude in any way, but you obviously don't.

Juicy Jazzy wrote:

Wasn't it Dwayne Fuselier that suggested Eric was psychopathic, and then Cullen ran with it?

As far as I know he was the first one to come up with it.

lilypadlane wrote:

As requested by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],  here's a little more detail on my discussion with a therapist regarding whether or not the diagnoses that Eric & Dylan were correct, and if were even possible to accurately diagnose them posthumously.

She is of the belief that they can not be accurately diagnosed based on their journals, especially given the possibility that Eric's journal was written for an audience and that it would have been necessary to have seen him in person to complete the psychopathy checklist.

As far as Dylan went, her opinion was that depressive and particularly schizotypal disorders, particularly, would not be possible to diagnose without observation, be it over a time period of several appointments or during a hospital stay,  and interview covering life history and questions regarding symptoms.

I tend to agree with her on both counts , but particularly regarding Eric, due to the conditions of the Hare Psychopathy Checklist required to make the diagnosis valid and the possibilities that other mental health conditions are the cause of some symptoms.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If it is not possible to diagnose someone after death, why have so many doctors done it? And so many medical authorities (such as the NVAVC reviewers in 1999) endorsed it?

And why should we take the word of one therapist unacquainted with the case over the word of all of these doctors who specialize in psychopathy?

lasttrain wrote:

lilypadlane wrote:

As requested by [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],  here's a little more detail on my discussion with a therapist regarding whether or not the diagnoses that Eric & Dylan were correct, and if were even possible to accurately diagnose them posthumously.

She is of the belief that they can not be accurately diagnosed based on their journals, especially given the possibility that Eric's journal was written for an audience and that it would have been necessary to have seen him in person to complete the psychopathy checklist.

As far as Dylan went, her opinion was that depressive and particularly schizotypal disorders, particularly, would not be possible to diagnose without observation, be it over a time period of several appointments or during a hospital stay,  and interview covering life history and questions regarding symptoms.

I tend to agree with her on both counts , but particularly regarding Eric, due to the conditions of the Hare Psychopathy Checklist required to make the diagnosis valid and the possibilities that other mental health conditions are the cause of some symptoms.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

If it is not possible to diagnose someone after death, why have so many doctors done it? And so many medical authorities (such as the NVAVC reviewers in 1999) endorsed it?

And why should we take the word of one therapist unacquainted with the case over the word of all of these doctors who specialize in psychopathy?

100 people can be of the same opinion on any given thing, and that doesn't mean they are correct.

As far as the opinion goes, you are free to take her word or not.