Social Status/Groups The Victims Belonged To

So we know that the casualties on 4/20 were tragically at random, they were not specifically targeted individuals, and the boys had killed no one in their supposed "Shit List" nor any particular person they may have bad mouthed or brought up in the basement tapes.
Now, has anyone ever thought about and realised that coincidentally the victims belonged under different and specific social statuses that was somehow enough to pass off as the statement that the boys were trying to make with their rampage? What I mean is that despite not killing anyone in particular they hated, but the victims ended up as collateral damage to represent the hierarchies the boys always despised - COINCIDENTALLY though, and not planned. We have ex-athletes, special needs, a minority, the popular girl, the smart quiet geek, the beloved teacher, the youngest who was the bravest there and a hero, the religious sporty girl, the girl who repented from rebellion, and the ordinary beloved ones who had bright futures and were just pleasant people to their family and friends. Maybe I'm looking too much into it, but I can't help but realise the result of the carnage left us with various statuses of victims which made the message of Columbine as strong as it is, and I know some people feel aggravated that it's the most innocent ones who never even knew the boys that got taken out.

And as a side question, if lets say they had killed particular people they hated, people who openly picked on them, bullies or freshmen who everyone else infamously knew about for being horrible, would it make it easier to accept and understand Columbine? Would we have been on the boys' side as much as murder is obviously wrong, but we get to say, "oh, well, these people deserved it."

Nobody deserves what happened to those kids.

Draw_It_White wrote:

Nobody deserves what happened to those kids.

No, but some would say it was justifiable if it were someone who gave them years of hell.

Austin Eubanks was on one of their lists iirc. I want to elaborate more but need more time. I will be back!

Lizpuff wrote:

Austin Eubanks was on one of their lists iirc. I want to elaborate more but need more time. I will be back!

Okay, sure. It crossed my mind Austin was on their list.

I made this thread cause I thought we could discuss how weirdly fitting the victims fit different social statuses and how frustrating people may initially feel they didn't went and find the people they really wanted dead instead.

I feel like there *may* have been some more support (that is not the right word but I cannot think of what word I want atm) for them if they had done this in 1998 when people like Rocky were at the school.

BUT when you read the 11k for the interviews of the people on the shit lists, some do freely admit that yes they deserved to be there because they picked on them or gave them shit, however most have had nothing to do with Eric or Dylan. They have no idea why they would want them killed.
I think more of the reality is that E&D really didn't have much motive honestly to kill any specific individual at all.

I mean sure we can pick out people like Rocky or Peggy Dodd and say well they did this or that to them. They would have deserved this more than others but still I have a hard time supporting any of that.

I think the fact that they killed so many that were nerds, christians, quiet kids etc really makes them seem just more delusional. They wanted to get back at people. So they killed them. Only they didn't pick the right target.

It's almost like you hurt your left arm so you chop off the right. Man I have such a hard time getting my thoughts together. I need more time to think lmao

lololol it's okay babygirl I get what you mean.

It just made me realise also like, what would hurt more than cause emotional damage to the families of the innocent victims? They got back at the school, the town, the country, by causing the worse kind of homicide and that is to take people out at random.

But as hard as it is to also say, yeah I do agree that it might be more..ish..reasonable, had they taken people who were horrid to them in the flesh. If they knew what they had done then they could understand why just like Evan Todd.

In a hypothetical sense if they wanted NBK to be a pre-meditated murder plot, I've always imagined what if they waited for specific people or bullies they wanted to take out and kill them.....but, yeah, it wasn't like that at all. The rampage didn't even turn out how they wanted to be.
Most of the victims hardly even knew them at all.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

lololol it's okay babygirl I get what you mean.

It just made me realise also like, what would hurt more than cause emotional damage to the families of the innocent victims? They got back at the school, the town, the country, by causing the worse kind of homicide and that is to take people out at random.  

But as hard as it is to also say, yeah I do agree that it might be more..ish..reasonable, had they taken people who were horrid to them in the flesh. If they knew what they had done then they could understand why just like Evan Todd.

In a hypothetical sense if they wanted NBK to be a pre-meditated murder plot, I've always imagined what if they waited for specific people or bullies they wanted to take out and kill them.....but, yeah, it wasn't like that at all. The rampage didn't even turn out how they wanted to be.
Most of the victims hardly even knew them at all.

Yea. Most were like who? OH yea wait I saw that guy in the hall once....

They sure caused a nightmare to that town for a long long time. People like Anne Marie had cascading effects.

I just always seem to think back to a comment Bubbles made. That their mortal enemy (at least for Eric) was Brooks because he was late to pick him up for school. I just I guess am having a harder and harder time understanding any motives the more and more I find out.

Lizpuff wrote:

I just always seem to think back to a comment Bubbles made. That their mortal enemy (at least for Eric) was Brooks because he was late to pick him up for school. I just I guess am having a harder and harder time understanding any motives the more and more I find out.

Yeah see now that's a weird one to me. Did he have serious anger management issues? Did he have a bad day and got incredibly offended about that? That was the beginning of a nightmare, getting mad over not getting picked up. It's these little things that remind me he had to have a mental issue up in there. At least something, idk what, but he's off.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I just always seem to think back to a comment Bubbles made. That their mortal enemy (at least for Eric) was Brooks because he was late to pick him up for school. I just I guess am having a harder and harder time understanding any motives the more and more I find out.

Yeah see now that's a weird one to me. Did he have serious anger management issues? Did he have a bad day and got incredibly offended about that? That was the beginning of a nightmare, getting mad over not getting picked up. It's these little things that remind me he had to have a mental issue up in there. At least something, idk what, but he's off.

Yea....I mean I know bullying did go on. But I just can't anymore with all E&D excuses

Wasn't Rpcky the big bully? But he graduated right? Anne Marie was his sister though right? Do you think they knew that and jumped at the opportunity when she walked out of the cafeteria? Did they know they paralyzed her instead of killing her?
And who is Peggy Dodd?

NotYourRobot wrote:

Wasn't Rpcky the big bully? But he graduated right? Anne Marie was his sister though right? Do you think they knew that and jumped at the opportunity when she walked out of the cafeteria? Did they know they paralyzed her instead of killing her?
And who is Peggy Dodd?

Peggy Dodd worked in the library.

Anne Marie was Not his sister. Dusty Hoffenschnider however you spell it was his brother. He was in the commons and was not hurt.

And yep Rocky graduated in 1998.

This is a terrible thing to say, but I kind of doubt Rachel's "it" girl status. Yes the girl was gorgeous and pretty socially in tune, what with drama and filming things, but her journal revealed this really suicidal person

NotYourRobot wrote:

This is a terrible thing to say, but I kind of doubt Rachel's "it" girl status. Yes the girl was gorgeous and pretty socially in tune, what with drama and filming things, but her journal revealed this really suicidal person

I have been doubtful from the start, but the reason I said she was popular because the majority of people gave her death the most attention and from pictures and videos, most of school flocked to her car and her crosses, her funeral. I mean she was the perfect picture of the popular friendly talented girl of the school. She got more attention than any of the other victims which for ME feel they deserve attention too. Sure, her journal shows otherwise, that's her prerogative, perhaps she was just an emotional troubled girl with alot to say. People can be normal in the eyes of their peers and go back home to feeling lonely.

But then there is Kyle Velasquez who most certainly didn't deserve to die. I hate to think about them killing Kyle.
There were a handful of people injured who just moved to Columbine High School in the months, or even just weeks, leading up to April 20. Obviously the shooting was a shock to everyone in the school, but I can't imagine what it was like for a new student who didn't know anybody and maybe didn't completely know their way around the school yet.
And finally, I feel really bad for Kacey Reugsegger,who "had transferred to Columbine just months before the shootings because two of her friends had committed suicide and another had died of leukemia at her old school and her parents wanted her to be in a more positive environment."

doomsdaydream wrote:

But then there is Kyle Velasquez who most certainly didn't deserve to die. I hate to think about them killing Kyle.
There were a handful of people injured who just moved to Columbine High School in the months, or even just weeks, leading up to April 20. Obviously the shooting was a shock to everyone in the school, but I can't imagine what it was like for a new student who didn't know anybody and maybe didn't completely know their way around the school yet.
And finally, I feel really bad for Kacey Reugsegger,who "had transferred to Columbine just months before the shootings because two of her friends had committed suicide and another had died of leukemia at her old school and her parents wanted her to be in a more positive environment."

I feel the exact same way for Kyle! Of course! None of the victims deserved to die.
And I didn't know that information about Kacey, thanks for sharing it.

Why was Austin on the shit list?

NotYourRobot wrote:

Why was Austin on the shit list?

Shrug....he wore a white hat. Probably because he was an athlete/hung out with them....

He could also have been a giant ass....I don't know

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I am not sure why, by association with jocks maybe, but he's friends with Corey and was under the table with him that day. [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

And austin is the one who recently had articles about him on his drug addiction and his life today etc etc...he actually looks pretty good.

I know who he is, I've just never heard that he was on their "list". Irregardless his story is so sad, to watch your best friend be murdered (last one shot makes it even worse) would mess up anybody , but to find out you're "partially responsible" is a serious mindf**k. Austin not returning to school and getting addicted to drugs makes so much sense

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I just always seem to think back to a comment Bubbles made. That their mortal enemy (at least for Eric) was Brooks because he was late to pick him up for school. I just I guess am having a harder and harder time understanding any motives the more and more I find out.

Yeah see now that's a weird one to me. Did he have serious anger management issues? Did he have a bad day and got incredibly offended about that? That was the beginning of a nightmare, getting mad over not getting picked up. It's these little things that remind me he had to have a mental issue up in there. At least something, idk what, but he's off.

To be fair Eric also got mad at Brooks because Brooks took off from school that day without telling him and Eric had to walk home in the snow which took about an hour.
Then when Eric threw the snowball and cracked the windshield (Which Eric always claimed had been an accident), Brooks went right to Eric's Mom and told her about Eric drinking,sneaking out of the house at night and spraying graffiti somewhere.This caused Eric a lot of trouble as you'd imagine.It was after this that things really got bad between Eric and Brooks.

I think that Eric overreacted but the feud was over a lot more than just rides to school.
That's just where it started.

NotYourRobot wrote:

I know who he is, I've just never heard that he was on their "list". Irregardless his story is so sad, to watch your best friend be murdered (last one shot makes it even worse) would mess up anybody , but to find out you're "partially responsible" is a serious mindf**k. Austin not returning to school and getting addicted to drugs makes so much sense

I feel bad that Austin felt there was a deliberate responsibility on his part with his friend's death because his name was on the list. Honestly, it's really not. I don't think the boys took that list seriously otherwise they'd find those faces specifically and finish them off. And as tragic as it is to say, the boys did the worst kind of damage and that was to kill the innocent people associated with the ones they hated.

PaintItBlack wrote:

To be fair Eric also got mad at Brooks because Brooks took off from school that day without telling him and Eric had to walk home in the snow which took about an hour.
Then when Eric threw the snowball and cracked the windshield (Which Eric always claimed had been an accident), Brooks went right to Eric's Mom and told her about Eric drinking,sneaking out of the house at night and spraying graffiti somewhere.This caused Eric a lot of trouble as you'd imagine.It was after this that things really got bad between Eric and Brooks.

I think that Eric overreacted but the feud was over a lot more than just rides to school.
That's just where it started.

yeah, it's been noted that brooks was always a downright snitch though and a compulsive liar and I can't imagine the few times where Eric was telling the truth but no one believed him. brooks snitched a lot.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Then when Eric threw the snowball and cracked the windshield (Which Eric always claimed had been an accident),

So why throw a snowball with that much force at a windshield in the first place if you weren't intending to damage the car in some way?

Because it's not like Eric was vindictive, had anger issues and was prone to lying in order to cover his ass, right?

Lizpuff wrote:

Austin Eubanks was on one of their lists iirc.  I want to elaborate more but need more time.  I will be back!

Is there an uncensored version of the list? I too would be interested in Eric's rationale for putting Austin on the list if that is indeed true.

doomsdaydream wrote:

But then there is Kyle Velasquez who most certainly didn't deserve to die. I hate to think about them killing Kyle.

Funny that, I feel the same way about all of Dylan's and Eric's victims.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Nothing but a whole lot of redaction. Damn, now I do wanna see it uncensored. It may not be that serious, but to have made it on the list I'd like to know who they had bad blood with.

bubbles wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Then when Eric threw the snowball and cracked the windshield (Which Eric always claimed had been an accident),

So why throw a snowball with that much force at a windshield in the first place if you weren't intending to damage the car in some way?

Because it's not like Eric was vindictive, had anger issues and was prone to lying in order to cover his ass, right?

Lizpuff wrote:

Austin Eubanks was on one of their lists iirc.  I want to elaborate more but need more time.  I will be back!

Is there an uncensored version of the list? I too would be interested in Eric's rationale for putting Austin on the list if that is indeed true.

doomsdaydream wrote:

But then there is Kyle Velasquez who most certainly didn't deserve to die. I hate to think about them killing Kyle.

Funny that, I feel the same way about all of Dylan's and Eric's victims.

The list has never fully been unredacted but they did deduce many of the names. I have a link to it but I don't know if it is against the rules to post it so I will pm it to you

May I request for a pm too? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

ultraviolencelv wrote:

May I request for a pm too? [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Sure. I believe its also in the 11k but I don't have too much time to look thru right now.

That's a very detailed couple of uncensored list. And you're right about the class of '98 students.

although I feel like those people had probably said like offensive thing to them or rubbed them off a bad way and that was it, they barely remember eric and dylan existed.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

although I feel like those people had probably said like offensive thing to them or rubbed them off a bad way and that was it, they barely remember eric and dylan existed.

There was someone in the 11k who mentioned a time in early 1999 where he turned a corner and bumped into Eric. And Eric just lost it. I think Eric put people like that on the list. He did put that in the Hate list too.

I think both E&D were very angry people and put these kids on the list that did things that most people would not notice. I mean Eric's aunt was on his list. Like what did she do to him?

Lizpuff wrote:

I think both E&D were very angry people and put these kids on the list that did things that most people would not notice. I mean Eric's aunt was on his list. Like what did she do to him?

lol his aunt too? Oh no not the auntie! What'd she do put too much frosting on his cake?

Eric's aunt was not on the hit list.

I saw the same thing discussed/misinterpreted many years ago, and I thought this was the case for a long time, myself.

But [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (on this forum) clarified this for us a few years back.

On [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] of this particular thread, you can read our posts and sororityalpha's correction.

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric's aunt was not on the hit list.

I saw the same thing discussed/misinterpreted many years ago, and I thought this was the case for a long time, myself.

But [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (on this forum) clarified this for us a few years back.

On this page of this particular thread, you can read our posts and sororityalpha's correction.

Thank you!

ultraviolencelv wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

Eric's aunt was not on the hit list.

I saw the same thing discussed/misinterpreted many years ago, and I thought this was the case for a long time, myself.

But [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (on this forum) clarified this for us a few years back.

On this page of this particular thread, you can read our posts and sororityalpha's correction.

Thank you!

You're welcome.

Thanks for clearing it up...I wish the link in that thread wasn't dead though

I remembered seeing it before but alpha deleted so many posts...

Wow [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you were on a roll in that thread. That was quite a read hahah.

I can't find an open thought to say about this topic. It never really occurred me about the social groups or status the victims belonged to. Probably for me cuz it never really mattered to Eric and Dylan because they just wanted to eradicate Columbine out of the face of the earth.

aquillina wrote:

I can't find an open thought to say about this topic. It never really occurred me about the social groups or status the victims belonged to. Probably for me cuz it never really mattered to Eric and Dylan because they just wanted to eradicate Columbine out of the face of the earth.

The only reason I think about it is because Eric and Dylan constantly thought about it. They always were upset with their location on ye olde totem pole.

Lizpuff wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
I can't find an open thought to say about this topic. It never really occurred me about the social groups or status the victims belonged to. Probably for me cuz it never really mattered to Eric and Dylan because they just wanted to eradicate Columbine out of the face of the earth.

The only reason I think about it is because Eric and Dylan constantly thought about it. They always were upset with their location on ye olde totem pole.

Yeah. They thought about it, but they thought about it throughout their time in high school and when they were teens and put it in writing especially for Eric. Eric was more adamant to ranting about these sort of stuff. However, I don't think they brought this focus on the day of NBK itself or go around looking for recognisable faces to take out. Wait, actually, I don't know. Remember that whole "look at those bitches over there" comment that supposedly could be heard on the 911 call said by Dylan?
I don't know if they recognised a group of people and consciously shot rounds at them.

I'm not trying to say they shot at specific a certain person or who they shot was planned, I'm just saying it's quite a fascinating coincidence the ones that died fit almost each section of a hierarchy in school.

Then you take Evan Todd. He was wearing a white hat. He may not have been someone who picked on them. He may not have been "a jock" and they left him alive....He didnt look too much like a jock other than the hat per say but their 'targeting' was bad.

Lizpuff wrote:

Then you take Evan Todd. He was wearing a white hat. He may not have been someone who picked on them. He may not have been "a jock" and they left him alive....He didnt look too much like a jock other than the hat per say but their 'targeting' was bad.

I think for Evan being alive it goes back to the whole having a direct conversation with him which low-key made it hard for the boys to kill him, by that time I think Dylan was doing too much conversation and taunting and Eric may have been winded then, so he ignored the entire ordeal and let Evan go and called Dylan to go downstairs.  But I mean like, you're right. Horrible targeting cause they let Evan go? After Columbine years later he was doing interviews and he went back to talking shit about them. I'm not saying because the boys were victims and are dead it means they have to be talked about empathetically or respectfully but Evan was dissing them with the same tone and mindset of a teen. At least be humble and act like an adult, Todd.

How did the conversation really go between Evan and Dylan? Did Dylan say "you use to call me a fag. Who's the fag now?" Or was what Evan said it was during his interviews?

aquillina wrote:

How did the conversation really go between Evan and Dylan? Did Dylan say "you use to call me a fag. Who's the fag now?" Or was what Evan said it was during his interviews?

From the 11k
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

You could call it "trickle truth" but personally I think he made that part up

Lizpuff wrote:

You could call it "trickle truth" but personally I think he made that part up

Which part?

aquillina wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

You could call it "trickle truth" but personally I think he made that part up

Which part?

The who is the fag now part.

Evan's interview here too sounds pretty fabricated...Idk if it was a spur of the moment thing or, his memory's all fuzzy, or he straight up lied but, yeah. I was expecting to hear the fag comment made in this interview. I mean I guess I would trust the 11K report more as it was done at the period after 4/20 so he would remember the actual things there and then.

Do you think that Evan's response got to Dylan a little bit? As in, he was affected by those words about not wanting trouble with them? Maybe I'm just thinking too much

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Evan's interview here too sounds pretty fabricated...Idk if it was a spur of the moment thing or, his memory's all fuzzy, or he straight up lied but, yeah. I was expecting to hear the fag comment made in this interview. I mean I guess I would trust the 11K report more as it was done at the period after 4/20 so he would remember the actual things there and then.

Do you think that Evan's response got to Dylan a little bit? As in, he was affected by those words about not wanting trouble with them? Maybe I'm just thinking too much

I thought it would more of when he said "I never had any trouble with you guys and I never will" that kinda got through to Dylan. Perhaps when you're in a life/death situation, it would be pretty hard to find the right words to say in order keep from getting your head blown off.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Evan's interview here too sounds pretty fabricated...Idk if it was a spur of the moment thing or, his memory's all fuzzy, or he straight up lied but, yeah. I was expecting to hear the fag comment made in this interview. I mean I guess I would trust the 11K report more as it was done at the period after 4/20 so he would remember the actual things there and then.

Do you think that Evan's response got to Dylan a little bit? As in, he was affected by those words about not wanting trouble with them? Maybe I'm just thinking too much

IDK he was staring Evan in the face mere inches away....I just think after all they had done the adrenaline was already starting to wear off. Moreso for Eric though.