what about the staff?

Something thats been bugging me. Columbine was a very large school. I dont have any numbers but there must have been over 100 teachers/other staff in the school that day.  Yet we only hear about a small handful who tried to help.  Where was everybody? Has this ever been brought up?

It was a different timE , in 1999 school shootings didn't happen everyday, teachers and other faculty weren't trained.

From most of the accounts I've read it sounded like there was such a state of panic that it was every man for himself in that place. You really don't get the feeling that getting the students to safety first was the staff's top priority. In most cases the students were on their own - look at the library. Staff had barricaded themselves into another room and those kids were sitting ducks. I mean yeah there were a few people like the maintenance guy, poor Dave Sanders and even the principal who tried to warn kids or help whoever they saw. Its possible there are more staff accounts in the 11k but most of the documents and articles I've read mention very little about the staff focusing on getting the kids to safety.

I agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]'s comment that no one was trained or prepared to handle a situation like that back then and no one really knew what to do. Everyone was just scrambling to get away from the gunfire.

Yeah....most of the staff weren't selfless at all besides Dave. Sigh. But this thread deserves a peruse through the 11K to be more thorough.

I have read the 11k. Staff were scattered. Lunch ladies hid in the closets and bathrooms with students. There is a lot of info on the science teachers who helped students and the math teachers that did as well.

The Andres both helped kids in the auditorium. It is not like people disappeared but everyone was hiding. When people realized what was going on they all hid pretty much where they were.

Lizpuff wrote:

I have read the 11k.  Staff were scattered.  Lunch ladies hid in the closets and bathrooms with students.  There is a lot of info on the science teachers who helped students and the math teachers that did as well.  

The Andres both helped kids in the auditorium.  It is not like people disappeared but everyone was hiding.  When people realized what was going on they all hid pretty much where they were.  

I agree. Patti Nielsen and another teacher went into hiding from their places in the library. I think she summed it up best when she said "I have 3 kids" . I'm not sure they were selfish so much as they were thinking of their own families, and as a parent, I can understand that.

I also agree that they were unprepared. School shootings happened back in the 90's, but they weren't as common as they are today.

That one library lady who got paranoid about getting shot because she recognised Dylan and knew he hated her.

Be kind to everyone.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

That one library lady who got paranoid about getting shot because she recognised Dylan and knew he hated her.

Be kind to everyone.

Peggy Dodd lol she was on the Shit list

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

That one library lady who got paranoid about getting shot because she recognised Dylan and knew he hated her.

Be kind to everyone.

Peggy Dodd lol she was on the Shit list

This is probably a dumb question, but why was she on the Shit List ? Did she do something specific ?

lilypadlane wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

That one library lady who got paranoid about getting shot because she recognised Dylan and knew he hated her.

Be kind to everyone.

Peggy Dodd lol she was on the Shit list

This is probably a dumb question, but why was she on the Shit List ? Did she do something specific ?

There was a 10 page printing limit. Over 10 pages and you had to pay for the pages. Dylan did not want to follow this rule and she enforced it with him. He called her a bitch and got in trouble with Rich Long for it. It was pretty close to April 20 and when he was told he would lose computer access because of this he stated it "didn't matter anymore"

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

That one library lady who got paranoid about getting shot because she recognised Dylan and knew he hated her.

Be kind to everyone.

Peggy Dodd lol she was on the Shit list

This is kinda what I meant with the "every man for himself" comment. Wasn't there another male staff memeber who ran into the library and only told a couple people that there was a shooter in the building and then he ran into that back room where the other staff members hid? His name escapes me and I could be remembering this completely wrong or getting it confused with another account. But it was little details like that that gave me the opinion that the staff was just as panicked as the kids and not many of them put student lives before their own

Kiwik wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

That one library lady who got paranoid about getting shot because she recognised Dylan and knew he hated her.

Be kind to everyone.

Peggy Dodd lol she was on the Shit list

This is kinda what I meant with the "every man for himself" comment. Wasn't there another male staff memeber who ran into the library and only told a couple people that there was a shooter in the building and then he ran into that back room where the other staff members hid?  His name escapes me and I could be remembering this completely wrong or getting it confused with another account. But it was little details like that that gave me the opinion that the staff was just as panicked as the kids and not many of them put student lives before their own

Rich Long was in the library with Peggy Dodd (well a conference room). In any case he ran in and yelled for everyone to get out of the library and then left. However by that time Patti was there and telling everyone to get down. Since he left and she remained yelling at the kids they stayed.

Lizpuff wrote:

Kiwik wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

That one library lady who got paranoid about getting shot because she recognised Dylan and knew he hated her.

Be kind to everyone.

Peggy Dodd lol she was on the Shit list

This is kinda what I meant with the "every man for himself" comment. Wasn't there another male staff memeber who ran into the library and only told a couple people that there was a shooter in the building and then he ran into that back room where the other staff members hid?  His name escapes me and I could be remembering this completely wrong or getting it confused with another account. But it was little details like that that gave me the opinion that the staff was just as panicked as the kids and not many of them put student lives before their own

Rich Long was in the library with Peggy Dodd (well a conference room).  In  any case he ran in and yelled for everyone to get out of the library and then left.  However by that time Patti was there and telling everyone to get down.  Since he left and she remained yelling at the kids they stayed.

Ah-ha! That's what I was referring to! Not sure why I thought I had read accounts that he only told a couple people there was a shooter or that only a coupe people heard him... There's so much info and so many accounts its hard to keep track sometimes!

Lizpuff wrote:

lilypadlane wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

That one library lady who got paranoid about getting shot because she recognised Dylan and knew he hated her.

Be kind to everyone.

Peggy Dodd lol she was on the Shit list

This is probably a dumb question, but why was she on the Shit List ? Did she do something specific ?

There was a 10 page printing limit.  Over 10 pages and you had to pay for the pages.  Dylan did not want to follow this rule and she enforced it with him.  He called her a bitch and got in trouble with Rich Long for it.  It was pretty close to April 20 and when he was told he would lose computer access because of this he stated it "didn't matter anymore"

I think it was more than that as a student said she saw Peggy Dodd and another staff member pick on E &D unfairly

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Lizpuff wrote:

lilypadlane wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

That one library lady who got paranoid about getting shot because she recognised Dylan and knew he hated her.

Be kind to everyone.

Peggy Dodd lol she was on the Shit list

This is probably a dumb question, but why was she on the Shit List ? Did she do something specific ?

There was a 10 page printing limit.  Over 10 pages and you had to pay for the pages.  Dylan did not want to follow this rule and she enforced it with him.  He called her a bitch and got in trouble with Rich Long for it.  It was pretty close to April 20 and when he was told he would lose computer access because of this he stated it "didn't matter anymore"

What an awful woman! How dare she enforce school rules?! I totally agree with the comment that people better be kind (read: pander) to people in case some uptight, self-entitled, bratty kid goes on a rampage

bubbles wrote:

What an awful woman! How dare she enforce school rules?! I totally agree with the comment that people better be kind to everyone in case some uptight, self-entitled, bratty kid goes on a rampage Rolling Eyes

Just in case you know, better to keep the attitude in check, like a non-asshole starter kit cause people these days just can't be a decent human being know what I mean?

Lol [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I know you're being sarcastic, but who's to say it didn't get grating when an elderly woman personally picks on a teen when she sees their face.

If peggy started freaking out about getting killed then she knew she had been nothing but salty to Dylan despite her setting him straight for breaking school rules.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

If peggy started freaking out about getting killed then she knew she had been nothing but salty to Dylan despite her setting him straight for breaking school rules.

Uh, maybe because Dylan had called her a "bitch" a few weeks prior to the massacre because she tried to get him to pay for the extra pages he had printed (students were only allowed 10 free pages worth of printing in accordance to the school's policy). Yeah, it may have seemed stingy, but those were the school rules and keep in mind that printing equipment wasn't as available and competitively priced as today.

No offence, but when people make comments alluding to this type of instance as constituting to "bullying", they're only doing a disservice to the "bullying caused them to do it" theory. Just like the other people who call Brandi Tinklenberg a bitch for turning down Eric's invitation to prom or those who call Brooks Brown an asshole for not giving Eric rides after Eric got shitty that Brooks was continuously late to pick him up.

Sometimes self-entitled suburban kids with God complexes don't always get what they want, shock horror!

bubbles wrote:

Uh, maybe because Dylan had called her a "bitch" a few weeks prior to the massacre because she tried to get him to pay for the extra pages he had printed (students were only allowed 10 free pages worth of printing in accordance to the school's policy). Yeah, it may have seemed stingy, but those were the school rules and keep in mind that printing equipment wasn't as available and competitively priced as today.

No offence, but when people make comments alluding to this type of instance as constituting to "bullying", they're only doing a disservice to the "bullying caused them to do it" theory. Just like the other people who call Brandi Tinklenberg a bitch for turning down Eric's invitation to prom or those who call Brooks Brown an asshole for not giving Eric rides after Eric got shitty that Brooks was continuously late to pick him up.

You know, I don't know why I even started the conversation considering I pretty much know how you feel about the boys and you think they're self-indulgent, bratty teen murderers.
I guess I find it hilarious that peggy freaked out. I mean what are the chances the one kid you've openly been hostile with would walk in the next week with a gun. and maybe I'm seeing this in perspective of Dylan too as i know how teachers or staff who personally dislike students will harp on them on purpose.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

bubbles wrote:

Uh, maybe because Dylan had called her a "bitch" a few weeks prior to the massacre because she tried to get him to pay for the extra pages he had printed (students were only allowed 10 free pages worth of printing in accordance to the school's policy). Yeah, it may have seemed stingy, but those were the school rules and keep in mind that printing equipment wasn't as available and competitively priced as today.

No offence, but when people make comments alluding to this type of instance as constituting to "bullying", they're only doing a disservice to the "bullying caused them to do it" theory. Just like the other people who call Brandi Tinklenberg a bitch for turning down Eric's invitation to prom or those who call Brooks Brown an asshole for not giving Eric rides after Eric got shitty that Brooks was continuously late to pick him up.

You know, I don't know why I even started the conversation considering I pretty much know how you feel about the boys and you think they're self-indulgent, bratty teen murderers.
I guess I find it hilarious that peggy freaked out. I mean what are the chances the one kid you've openly been hostile with would walk in the next week with a gun. and maybe I'm seeing this in perspective of Dylan too as i know how teachers or staff who personally dislike students will harp on them on purpose.

Ever thought there might be a reason why some of the teachers had problems with Dylan and Eric? Have you read some of the witness accounts about their behaviour and attitude towards some of their teachers in the 11k? I know that I was a smartass, argumentative shit to teachers when I was in high school and that some of them couldn't stand me. At the time I felt like I was being picked on periodically and that they'd come down on me extra hard, but now that I'm older and have grown up, I can see why (with the exception of one teacher who genuinely was an incredibly unprofessional bully who was eventually fired for misconduct after I left school).

bubbles wrote:

Ever thought there might be a reason why some of the teachers had problems with Dylan and Eric? Have you read some of the witness accounts about their behaviour and attitude towards some of their teachers in the 11k? I know that I was a smartass, argumentative shit to teachers when I was in high school and that some of them couldn't stand me. At the time I felt like I was being picked on periodically and that they'd come down on me extra hard, but now that I'm older and have grown up, I can see why (with the exception of one teacher who genuinely was an incredibly unprofessional bully who was eventually fired for misconduct after I left school).

I get it, I totally do. I'm just gonna assume due to their self-consciousness and the prior pickings that they had received, the boys and for this case Dylan may have felt that it was a personal attack against them. I guess the insecurity was so bad that as long as someone even talks to them in a shitty tone they'd take it very personally. Eric for example, who tend to get offended by almost anyone. So yeah I get it. I feel it's fair if it's reasonable that teachers and staff have problems with them as opposed to many cases of teachers who choose to pick on a kid for no reason infront of everyone, power-trips and all that. I've seen that first hand and I think it's disgusting and such an abuse of power.

One thing though. Ok let's take one example. Dylan kept falling asleep in class. I get it. That is bad. I get punishing him for falling asleep in class fine. I do NOT get humiliating him in front of his peers because of this. Maybe the teacher thought this was the only way to get thru to him but hey there was a teacher at a school of mine that thought throwing items at kids was ok...its all up to one's own discretion right?

Dylan was a punk. They were both punks. I can imagine their attitudes being even worse as Judgement Day grew closer - hence the "It doesn't matter now".

It's one thing when a teacher reacts to a problematic kid in class and another when they obviously show favouritism and kiss asses of the popular kids, the athletes and all that. From what I understand e&d have gotten personal sarcastic pickings in front of everyone and that's almost unnecessary. If a shy student feels like it's a personal attack who wouldn't get angry? Let alone from a teacher?

Lizpuff wrote:

One thing though.  Ok let's take one example.  Dylan kept falling asleep in class.  I get it.  That is bad.  I get punishing him for falling asleep in class fine.  I do NOT get humiliating him in front of his peers because of this.  Maybe the teacher thought this was the only way to get thru to him but hey there was a teacher at a school of mine that thought throwing items at kids was ok...its all up to one's own discretion right?

Slightly off topic but I fell asleep in history class junior year and the teacher slammed his cart into my desk (I was in the front, and it wasn't a normal occurance for me to sleep in class). And he apparently did it nonchalant during a discussion without skipping a beat. I, along with the other kids, thought it was hilarious. E&D just needed to lighten up a little.

Kiwik wrote:

Slightly off topic but I fell asleep in history class junior year and the teacher slammed his cart into my desk (I was in the front, and it wasn't a normal occurance for me to sleep in class). And he apparently did it nonchalant during a discussion without skipping a beat. I, along with the other kids, thought it was hilarious. E&D just needed to lighten up a little.

They sure could, but as I said above they already felt like the whole school was personally attacking them, like lashing out at them. Their self-conscious issues were close to paranoia. Maybe nothing was going on around them at all but in their eyes they felt picked.

Kiwik wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

One thing though.  Ok let's take one example.  Dylan kept falling asleep in class.  I get it.  That is bad.  I get punishing him for falling asleep in class fine.  I do NOT get humiliating him in front of his peers because of this.  Maybe the teacher thought this was the only way to get thru to him but hey there was a teacher at a school of mine that thought throwing items at kids was ok...its all up to one's own discretion right?

Slightly off topic but I fell asleep in history class junior year and the teacher slammed his cart into my desk (I was in the front, and it wasn't a normal occurance for me to sleep in class). And he apparently did it nonchalant during a discussion without skipping a beat. I, along with the other kids, thought it was hilarious. E&D just needed to lighten up a little.

The reason I picked that example really was just to highlight Dylan's embarrassment. He hated to be the center of attention. He hated when all eyes were on him. And there we go. Now everyone was staring at him. Laughing at him. I think it was more mortifying than most can imagine for him. It went beyond embarrassment and into rage for him.

One time way back in elementary school a friend and I were caught passing notes. The teacher had warned kids about passing notes and said she would read any she found. She read our notes. It was nothing embarrassing but I was mortified.

Later the same week other kids were caught but their notes were not read. That made me very angry. Why didn't she read those? Why were they not shamed in front of the class? I can get that point very easily

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I chalk Dylan and Eric's bad behavior towards their teachers/students to 2 things:
1. They were so close to NBK that they felt like they could do whatever they wanted to and it wouldn't matter. Not a good reason, but still valid, AND
2. Often kids who lash out or are rude do so because they themselves were mistreated. They may feel self conscious and overreact to slightly embarrassing situations. Their own behavior aside, Dylan and Eric WERE bullied; you can't deny that. I really think their behavior in school was just self-defense after so many years of "just dealing with it."

On their god complexes:
I really think this was their way of coping. We read in both their journals how they don't fit in, they're self-conscious, they feel left out, etc. They KNOW they are different, and at first, it's obvious that they feel they are different in a bad way. As a result, Dylan (and maybe Eric) are depressed and suicidal. To cope with that, they begin to view their differences as being good differences. They tell themselves, "You know what? I'm just too smart for them. They don't like me because they can't understand what I understand." So, yes, maybe a god complex, but I truly think they developed it in response to feelings of depression and loneliness.
They aren't narcissistic or bratty for doing so. We all do a form of this. After someone breaks up with your friend, what do we usually say? "Don't feel bad. You are TOO GOOD for them." Your friend doesn't get a job they applied for? "Don't worry. They are too stupid to see how right you are for the job." It's a natural coping mechanism to put down another person in order to make yourself feel better. A normal, stable person wouldn't then shoot up a school and murder innocent people, but I think we can all agree that Eric and Dylan were not mentally stable. You can call them bratty and self-entitled all you want, but it is unfair to apply normal expectations on Eric and Dylan (who were unable to process anger and humiliation in a normal, healthy way, gosh dangit!!).

Lizpuff wrote:

One time way back in elementary school a friend and I were caught passing notes.  The teacher had warned kids about passing notes and said she would read any she found.  She read our notes.  It was nothing embarrassing but I was mortified.

Later the same week other kids were caught but their notes were not read.  That made me very angry.  Why didn't she read those?   Why were they not shamed in front of the class?  I can get that point very easily

I absolutely Hated that kinda shit in school. How is it fair to deliver a humiliating punishment to one kid but almost dismiss it when another kid does the same kid?? I have so many humiliating stories like this and I'm sure others do but I don't wanna get too far off topic!

Also [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], very well put! I think a Lot of people don't always put themselves in others' positions to try and understand where someone is coming from when they cause problems or act shitty.

The whole point of me posting the statement of Mollie Weskler was to illustrate that according to her Peggy Dodd and two other staff members had been unfairly picking on E &D LONG before the confrontation over the printing occurred.Whatever you think of the incident over the printed pages she had apparently picked on E &D for a long while before hand ,according to Mollie Weskler's account.


And yes teachers really do bully students or stand by and allow other students to bully them while doing nothing or sitting their laughing themselves.
It does happen and I know this firsthand because it happened to me.A teacher is supposed to be a professional and an adult and not engage in such behavior.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

It's one thing when a teacher reacts to a problematic kid in class and another when they obviously show favouritism and kiss asses of the popular kids, the athletes and all that. From what I understand e&d have gotten personal sarcastic pickings in front of everyone and that's almost unnecessary. If a shy student feels like it's a personal attack who wouldn't get angry? Let alone from a teacher?

You're right that some teachers single out the trouble makers more. Its kind of a "fool me once" kind of deal though. There's no denying that E/D could be rude assholes to people who didnt deserve it. Dylan called Peggy a bitch after he chose to break a rule. Sling enough bullshit around and people will start to see you in a negative manner. That's not to say that some teachers at Columbine weren't selfishly picking favorites. There's plenty of stories and anecdotes about teachers turning their heads away from bullying and abuse.

Still that doesn't mean E/D didnt earn their fair share of ire from the staff, or that staff didnt have a reason to be wary of them. Lets not forget that they did end up going on a shooting spree at that very same school lol. It really is quite sad how no one put two-and-two together. So many different staff members have come out and said they should have seen it coming. I can't imagine the level of guilt that must bring.

Nirvana92 wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

It's one thing when a teacher reacts to a problematic kid in class and another when they obviously show favouritism and kiss asses of the popular kids, the athletes and all that. From what I understand e&d have gotten personal sarcastic pickings in front of everyone and that's almost unnecessary. If a shy student feels like it's a personal attack who wouldn't get angry? Let alone from a teacher?

You're right that some teachers single out the trouble makers more. Its kind of a "fool me once" kind of deal though. There's no denying that E/D could be rude assholes to people who didnt deserve it. Dylan called Peggy a bitch after he chose to break a rule. Sling enough bullshit around and people will start to see you in a negative manner. That's not to say that some teachers at Columbine weren't selfishly picking favorites. There's plenty of stories and anecdotes about teachers turning their heads away from bullying and abuse.

Still that doesn't mean E/D didnt earn their fair share of ire from the staff, or that staff didnt have a reason to be wary of them. Lets not forget that they did end up going on a shooting spree at that very same school lol. It really is quite sad how no one put two-and-two together. So many different staff members have come out and said they should have seen it coming. I can't imagine the level of guilt that must bring.

Didn't he call her a bitch partly though because he already had a grudge against her from before for picking on him and Eric?

I think they could be jerks at times but I do think they were treated badly by a lot of people in a lot of ways at different times.
I believe that the wellspring of their bitterness had to start somewhere.And I believe that was their treatment in the general environment of the school.

Dylan calling Peggy a bitch had to start from somewhere much bitter. And by that period he no longer had anymore tolerance and patience for the significance pickings he was getting. Like i said, I think he felt personally Attacked even if he wasn't acting right at first.