Deliberate Signs Left or Mishaps?

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I am just really unsure. I feel in a way like he would lie his way out of it. But on the other hand I do feel like he wanted to be caught. It is an interesting thing to think about Def if Dylan was around he would try to weasel out of it because he would never want Dylan to know if he did want out of it. If he even did.

If we go with the idea that Eric did want out of it, I would think if the right person, lets say for example someone finds out and calls his parents to the school and they confront him in a little room with no out, I think he would confess perhaps.

Then there is a part of me that goes no way....he would lie his ass off.

I am conflicted

Same. and this is why Columbine is interesting and always fresh on our minds! Eric, I can't seem to figure you out!

Understatement of the century!  The evidence he left behind was so contradictory that it's hard to figure out who the 'real' Eric was vs. the Reb 'character' and all of his tough-guy posturing.

aquillina wrote:

Dylan have been dead anyways even if Eric was caught?

When would he be dead? Cause what I meant was say Eric was caught was before NBK happened. I don't see a scenario where Dylan would end up dead? I think he would just continue living if NBK couldn't happen.

Like if Eric put himself in a position where he could get caught wouldn't it be because he wanted to and to get out of the massacre?

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

Dylan have been dead anyways even if Eric was caught?

When would he be dead? Cause what I meant was say Eric was caught was before NBK happened. I don't see a scenario where Dylan would end up dead? I think he would just continue living if NBK couldn't happen.

Yes, it is very unlikeable that Dylan could have done himself in without NBK & Eric's support. I think he would have continued to live (a miserable life), too.

Moonshadow wrote:

Yes, it is very unlikeable that Dylan could have done himself in without NBK & Eric's support. I think he would have continued to live (a miserable life), too.

Would Dylan have ended up like Kurt Cobain, River Phoenix, or Robin Williams if NBK never occured?

When you say Dylan end up like them do you mean go through the lifestyle until their suicide? I would count robin out cause he managed to fool everyone with how Normal and happy he was until he took his own life. I would say maybe, maybe Dylan might do hard drugs or drink and then eventually just slip away to suicide but yet I feel that he might cave into living a normal life, find a girl and turn out okay.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

When you say Dylan end up like them do you mean go through the lifestyle until their suicide? I would count robin out cause he managed to fool everyone with how Normal and happy he was until he took his own life. I would say maybe, maybe Dylan might do hard drugs or drink and then eventually just slip away to suicide but yet I feel that he might cave into living a normal life, find a girl and turn out okay.

Pretty much, like drugs alcohol and maybe some hard partying nights that would eventually have lead him to suicide or maybe an accidental overdose. Even if he did live a normal life up into or adulthood he would have shared the same fate as Robin Williams. That is if he never received the treatment needed for his depression.

aquillina wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

When you say Dylan end up like them do you mean go through the lifestyle until their suicide? I would count robin out cause he managed to fool everyone with how Normal and happy he was until he took his own life. I would say maybe, maybe Dylan might do hard drugs or drink and then eventually just slip away to suicide but yet I feel that he might cave into living a normal life, find a girl and turn out okay.

Pretty much, like drugs alcohol and maybe some hard partying nights that would eventually have lead him to suicide or maybe an accidental overdose. Even if he did live a normal life up into or adulthood he would have shared the same fate as Robin Williams. That is if he never received the treatment needed for his depression.

I am pretty certain as a teen Dylan became blackout drunk more than a few times. I can see him abusing alcohol. And let's say NBK didn't happen and Dylan went off to college, a college is a place full of drugs and alcohol so I think he could certainly have gone down that path.

So overall what I have gotten back to the topic is that their surroundings were both ignorant yet also can't be blamed because at that point of time one would ever guess that something tragic was going to happen and planned by the two. Basically yeah in hindsight these were signs but at that point of time really easy to overlook.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

So overall what I have gotten back to the topic is that their surroundings were both ignorant yet also can't be blamed because at that point of time one would ever guess that something tragic was going to happen and planned by the two. Basically yeah in hindsight these were signs but at that point of time really easy to overlook.

Yea...I mean it is so easy for all of us to go "well why didn't (Sue Tom Wayne Brooks whoever) notice what was going on?" There are and were so many kids going thru the exact same things Eric and Dylan did, that turn out to be perfectly normal. It is also easy to say that the environment caused NBK but it really isnt that simple either.

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

So overall what I have gotten back to the topic is that their surroundings were both ignorant yet also can't be blamed because at that point of time one would ever guess that something tragic was going to happen and planned by the two. Basically yeah in hindsight these were signs but at that point of time really easy to overlook.

Yea...I mean it is so easy for all of us to go "well why didn't (Sue Tom Wayne Brooks whoever) notice what was going on?"  There are and were so many kids going thru the exact same things Eric and Dylan did, that turn out to be perfectly normal.  It is also easy to say that the environment caused NBK but it really isnt that simple either.

I feel as if Columbine was fated to happen. As what Brooks Brown said, "Eric and Dylan created the Columbine tragedy but Columbine created them." In the end, we will never know if this tragedy could have been prevented.

aquillina wrote:

I feel as if Columbine was fated to happen. As what Brooks Brown said, "Eric and Dylan created the Columbine tragedy but Columbine created them." In the end, we will never know if this tragedy could have been prevented.

Yeah, it's the first of its kind. Eric and Dylan invented that. They are legends now really. They changed the game. Gave us the pop culture that we came to know and love along the years since Columbine happened.

I don't think Eric wanted to get caught. I think he wanted to make it impossible to turn back.

If you chicken out, yes, you can just go home. But can you explain to your parents the suicide tape on the counter? If you're a good liar, maybe. But what about the drawing on the wall? That's harder.

And what if a bomb has actually blown up on South Wadsworth Boulevard, the one you planted there earlier, an event that would have dominated the evening news if Columbine itself had not happened? A bomb only a mile from your house. Suddenly it all gets harder to explain.

And what if you uploaded documents to the school server that implicate you in all this? You're not graduating, the police are involved again, you're maybe looking at prison. Your life is over.

All of this was Eric's way of painting himself into an absolute corner. To leave himself no other option when the time came.

lasttrain wrote:

I don't think Eric wanted to get caught. I think he wanted to make it impossible to turn back.

If you chicken out, yes, you can just go home. But can you explain to your parents the suicide tape on the counter? If you're a good liar, maybe. But what about the drawing on the wall? That's harder.

And what if a bomb has actually blown up on South Wadsworth Boulevard, the one you planted there earlier, an event that would have dominated the evening news if Columbine itself had not happened? A bomb only a mile from your house. Suddenly it all gets harder to explain.

And what if you uploaded documents to the school server that implicate you in all this? You're not graduating, the police are involved again, you're maybe looking at prison. Your life is over.

All of this was Eric's way of painting himself into an absolute corner. To leave himself no other option when the time came.

Well look at you go, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]! Bravo! Very interesting!

That being said this is all only if he managed to LIE from being caught though.
and if he's trying to make it impossible to turn back, I'm quite confused. This would also only apply if he got away with every single one - which he did.

I feel like your point is an irony or I'm just confused.

I think I get what you mean somehow yes. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

lasttrain wrote:

And what if a bomb has actually blown up on South Wadsworth Boulevard, the one you planted there earlier, an event that would have dominated the evening news if Columbine itself had not happened?  A bomb only a mile from your house. Suddenly it all gets harder to explain.

The bomb there was a set to try and distract police response to the school though.

lasttrain wrote:

And what if a bomb has actually blown up on South Wadsworth Boulevard, the one you planted there earlier, an event that would have dominated the evening news if Columbine itself had not happened?  A bomb only a mile from your house. Suddenly it all gets harder to explain.

x5000x wrote:

The bomb there was a set to try and distract police response to the school though.

No lasttrain is right, he meant that if the shooting in the school didn't happen there was still the diversion bomb to think about which might've gone off anyway.

I agree with lasttrain too. There is a part of me that makes me think he just wanted to make sure he did it. He left gun parts on his bed, didn't clean up his materials like he usually did and all the other things mentioned. It would also make a lot of sense!
Another reason I am torn

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] always comes in and says something that changes the game lol.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] always comes in and says something that changes the game lol.

Many times I do not agree with him but on this topic I am just so confused. I think it could have been just about any possibility. I have thought about it for a while now and I just keep changing my mind. All these grey areas....

lasttrain wrote:

All of this was Eric's way of painting himself into an absolute corner. To leave himself no other option when the time came.

I thought this was an interesting idea that you posted but it hinges on the assumption that Eric actually needed some extra push to go through with it. Or at least that he needed an extra incentive to make sure that he didn't go back on his plans.

In your mind, what would it have been that made Eric turn back? In other words, why do you think he needed these "safeguards" to force himself to go through with it?

Do you think he would have been afraid of having to kill himself? Do you think he knew it was wrong and would have had doubts for that reason? Basically, would these last minute doubts have been "cowardice" of some sort or pangs of conscience or something else?

sscc wrote:

Do you think he would have been afraid of having to kill himself? Do you think he knew it was wrong and would have had doubts for that reason? Basically, would these last minute doubts have been "cowardice" of some sort or pangs of conscience or something else?

it's exactly all of that. Upon reading that point I realised - just as I have always felt that Eric was afraid. Probably also with a hint of feeling sad about having to leave this earth and his life. Eric was afraid and I'll always believe that.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

sscc wrote:

Do you think he would have been afraid of having to kill himself? Do you think he knew it was wrong and would have had doubts for that reason? Basically, would these last minute doubts have been "cowardice" of some sort or pangs of conscience or something else?

it's exactly all of that. Upon reading that point I realized - just as I have always felt that Eric was afraid. Probably also with a hint of feeling sad about having to leave this earth and his life. Eric was afraid and I'll always believe that.

If he was afraid then say if someone had somehow intervened like a close friend or family would he have not done it? Maybe even a girl that he liked. I'd like to believe that anything could have been possible.

Even if he was afraid I feel like his loyalty to Dylan and his personality of not wanting to let others down kept him from backing out. I think it would have taken a lot from someone else to get him to abandon nbk. I think even Susan said in her report in the 11k that she ran into Eric outside on 4/19 and that he seemed agitated and didn't talk much. I took it as he was mentally in the zone and didn't want to be distracted from it, of that makes sense.

There was no longer a chance for a person to intervene despite him being afraid because as mentioned above he already had everything in order and in place so there's no turning back now. You know like that scene in Zero Day when they burned their video games and their precious things and they said to each other "now we really have to go through with it!" Exactly that.

Kiwik wrote:

Even if he was afraid I feel like his loyalty to Dylan and his personality of not wanting to let others down kept him from backing out. I think it would have taken a lot from someone else to get him to abandon nbk. I think even Susan said in her report in the 11k that she ran into Eric outside on 4/19 and that he seemed agitated and didn't talk much. I took it as he was mentally in the zone and didn't want to be distracted from it, of that makes sense.

you make sense, I agree. If he let himself speak to Susan and spend that little time with her he would feel so guilty and bummed out and brought back to reality. He had to shut everything off. And yes on being loyal to Dylan.

I hate to admit but that's the very very sad truth to it all. Probably because no one was ever close enough to either of them to convince them not to go through with it. Both of them were too far from being saved. As I've mentioned before, it was all fate.

Eric being afraid is not the kind of fear where it left the chance for someone to intervene and stop him from the massacre. He was afraid of the act of taking his own life - pain?, and killing people, and his conscience letting him feel things about it. He didn't want to deal with the reality of it. I would even say how cold and robotic he was during the massacre was to fight off the array of emotions he may have had in him prior to the shooting until it started where he shut everything off and took people out like a mission.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

you make sense, I agree. If he let himself speak to Susan and spend that little time with her he would feel so guilty and bummed out and brought back to reality. He had to shut everything off. And yes on being loyal to Dylan.

I'm gonna change the scenario here. If Sue somehow was able to get into the school and confront her son, would either of them try to shoot her?

aquillina wrote:

I'm gonna change the scenario here. If Sue somehow was able to get into the school and confront her son, would Eric try to shoot her?

I believe this was a topic of its own before. Was it by you? Hahah.

I said that either one wouldn't shoot Sue/their parents, but fire missing shots around them to scare them to leaving. Then they would finish the massacre and kill themselves. They did everything they could not to have contact with those dearest to them by 4/20 so no way they would cave had they seen them and stop the massacre. They were killing and made sure they died that day.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

I'm gonna change the scenario here. If Sue somehow was able to get into the school and confront her son, would Eric try to shoot her?

I believe this was a topic of its own before. Was it by you? Hahah.

I said that either one wouldn't shoot Sue/their parents, but fire missing shots around them to scare them to leaving. Then they would finish the massacre and kill themselves. They did everything they could not to have contact with those dearest to them by 4/20 so no way they would cave had they seen them and stop the massacre. They were killing and made sure they died that day.

I found it. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
I'm gonna kick it up a notch then. What if Sue refuses to leave her son? Even after given the warning shots she still stays. I doubt he would have the guts to shoot himself right in front of his own mother. But then I wouldn't rule out Eric trying to kill her for that.

Wow, hmm.....that's a legit question. Gee I can't tell. I really don't think they would shoot her though. No way would Dylan let Eric shoot his own momma!

That I can't tell. This is what I think. If she refuses to leave then Dylan just offs himself there. He's definitely not gonna shoot his mother but her persistence left him no choice but to rid of himself first despite her watching.

I don't think either Eric or Dylan would have shot each others parents. But if they somehow showed up after they had shot the other kids there is no telling what would happen. I don't think either could have shot themselves in front of their parents though.

So say if they wouldn't shoot themselves infront of their parents and definitely not at their parents then are they all just stuck in a limbo? Cause, I really doubt the boys want to be taken out alive, let alone with their parents next to them, no way. I think maybe they'd just - worst come to worst - injure their parents so they can't keep budging their massacre.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

So say if they wouldn't shoot themselves infront of their parents and definitely not at their parents then are they all just stuck in a limbo? Cause, I really doubt the boys want to be taken out alive, let alone with their parents next to them, no way. I think maybe they'd just - worst come to worst - injure their parents so they can't keep budging their massacre.

That is where I have no idea. would they try to run at that point? That might be all they have to do

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think either Eric or Dylan would have shot each others parents.  But if they somehow showed up after they had shot the other kids there is no telling what would happen.  I don't think either could have shot themselves in front of their parents though.

The only possibility I could think of is Dylan and Eric finally surrendering themselves and giving up their quest for revenge. That is if Sue had the right words it would have been possible to save Dylan and maybe Eric as well. I can totally picture Dylan just breaking down in front of everyone in the library.

aquillina wrote:

The only possibility I could think of is Dylan and Eric finally surrendering themselves and giving up their quest for revenge. That is if Sue had the right words it would have been possible to save Dylan and maybe Eric as well. I can totally picture Dylan just breaking down in front of everyone in the library.

Ehhhhh................
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sscc wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

All of this was Eric's way of painting himself into an absolute corner.  To leave himself no other option when the time came.

I thought this was an interesting idea that you posted but it hinges on the assumption that Eric actually needed some extra push to go through with it. Or at least that he needed an extra incentive to make sure that he didn't go back on his plans.

In your mind, what would it have been that made Eric turn back? In other words, why do you think he needed these "safeguards" to force himself to go through with it?

Do you think he would have been afraid of having to kill himself? Do you think he knew it was wrong and would have had doubts for that reason? Basically, would these last minute doubts have been "cowardice" of some sort or pangs of conscience or something else?

All of the above. Just plain old fear that he couldn't actually do it.

Interestingly, many mass shootings are preceded by some small-scale public exposure or act that makes it impossible to go home. Look at the Aurora shooter rigging his own apartment with explosives, making it literally impossible to go back home.