Eric was more of a " mess " than dylan ?

aquillina wrote:

Did he really say that in his journals or online rants?

He wrote that apparently.

aquillina wrote:

That's where I'm still a little confused because Dylan talked about a lot about suicide, but he never mentioned anything about harming others. So how could he go from suicidal from homicidal?

I suggest you take a look at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and either read it all or Ctrl+F "ill go on my killing spree against anyone I want"

dahlia_rose wrote:

I definitely
Deep down I get the impression that Dylan pitied Eric because it was harder for him to keep up a facade and hide his social and emotional dysfunctions,

Really, he pitied Eric? There is no evidence to support pity. Anyway, to say that Eric was hiding behind a facade is ridiculous, given what we know about Eric and his violent tempers, as well as his excellent impression management skills when he needed to persuade adults to do his bidding. Anyway back to Eric's early life. I honestly don't think it's normal for 12 year old to buy GI Joes from a friend in order to mutiliate them; I don't suppose it's normal to play with matches and lighters as young as nine, only to almost burn your own house down and a bridge; and I don't assume it's normal behavior to build pipebombs before you reach adolescence. Do you honestly think Eric was a lackey? Seriously? The only reason Eric didn't have a lot of friends was because he held ridiculous grudges because of his violent temper. Do you think Dylan put hin up to it? (Also, there is evidence that Eric had other friends besides Dylan, mostly girls he met at the mall, Blackjack's, school, etc) Lol.

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Dylan wins by miles and miles. I think he had been discussing violent fantasies and scenarios with Chris, Zach and Eric as early as 1996 (the year Eric first started making bombs).

And so did Eric. Only he chose to let the world in on his own dark secret too late in the game, (Eric exchanged his fireworks for pipebombs), whereas Dylan wanted to commit suicide; Dylan knew he didn't fit in with kids his own age, and so he made bizarre jokes about death and murder, which isn't unusual behavior for a depressive. Also, did I forget to mention that Eric had an obsession with weapons as a small child?  Eric's arrogance and hatred and Dylan's self-loathing reinforce each other.

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He put all of his energy into Eric, who quite frankly seemed desperate for a smothering friendship with someone. Dylan even had to use his mom to reject Eric's calls to hang out, that's how clingy he was.

Lol. Did you miss the part where Dylan told his mother Eric was "crazy"? Or why Sue felt Dylan needed to distance himself from Eric? Do you think it was because he was too clingy?  Lol

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think Dylan was completely indifferent to his parents and thought poorly even of his own friends, including Eric.

Because he couldn't see past his own narrow-minded depression. That's not anger, that's serious depression. You numb yourself so much that you can't process what you are about to do and don't care. In the basement tapes, he's released from life.

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he was done pretending and hiding the truth and probably took comfort in the fact that he'd be gone by the time his loved ones discovered his real self and he'd never have to answer for it.

No,  he couldn't wait to die and didn't think about his parents because he was so focused on his own death, until Eric brought them up. If both boys truly felt remorse, they wouldn't have done it. They mocked their parents, even Eric, because they pulled a fast one on them.

shades wrote:

Eric Harris wrote:

I have a goal to destroy as much as possible, so I must not be sidetracked by my feelings of sympathy, mercy, or any of that.

Eric wrote that.

jada887 wrote:

dahlia_rose wrote:

I definitely
Deep down I get the impression that Dylan pitied Eric because it was harder for him to keep up a facade and hide his social and emotional dysfunctions,

Really, he pitied Eric? There is no evidence to support pity. Anyway, to say that Eric was hiding behind a facade is ridiculous, given what we know about Eric and his violent tempers, as well as his excellent impression management skills when he needed to persuade adults to do his bidding. Anyway back to Eric's early life. I honestly don't think it's normal for 12 year old to buy GI Joes from a friend in order to mutiliate them; I don't suppose it's normal to play with matches and lighters as young as nine, only to almost burn your own house down and a bridge; and I don't assume it's normal behavior to build pipebombs before you reach adolescence. Do you honestly think Eric was a lackey? Seriously? The only reason Eric didn't have a lot of friends was because he held ridiculous grudges because of his violent temper. Do you think Dylan put hin up to it? (Also, there is evidence that Eric had other friends besides Dylan, mostly girls he met at the mall, Blackjack's, school, etc) Lol.

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Dylan wins by miles and miles. I think he had been discussing violent fantasies and scenarios with Chris, Zach and Eric as early as 1996 (the year Eric first started making bombs).

And so did Eric. Only he chose to let the world in on his own dark secret too late in the game, (Eric exchanged his fireworks for pipebombs), whereas Dylan wanted to commit suicide; Dylan knew he didn't fit in with kids his own age, and so he made bizarre jokes about death and murder, which isn't unusual behavior for a depressive. Also, did I forget to mention that Eric had an obsession with weapons as a small child?  Eric's arrogance and hatred and Dylan's self-loathing reinforce each other.

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He put all of his energy into Eric, who quite frankly seemed desperate for a smothering friendship with someone. Dylan even had to use his mom to reject Eric's calls to hang out, that's how clingy he was.

Lol. Did you miss the part where Dylan told his mother Eric was "crazy"? Or why Sue felt Dylan needed to distance himself from Eric? Do you think it was because he was too clingy?  Lol

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think Dylan was completely indifferent to his parents and thought poorly even of his own friends, including Eric.

Because he couldn't see past his own narrow-minded depression. That's not anger, that's serious depression. You numb yourself so much that you can't process what you are about to do and don't care. In the basement tapes, he's released from life.

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he was done pretending and hiding the truth and probably took comfort in the fact that he'd be gone by the time his loved ones discovered his real self and he'd never have to answer for it.

No,  he couldn't wait to die and didn't think about his parents because he was so focused on his own death, until Eric brought them up. If both boys truly felt remorse, they wouldn't have done it. They mocked their parents, even Eric, because they pulled a fast one on them.

Just to get this out of the way... It might take me a while to get a hold of the whole quotey thing, so I apologize for that.

Though to start, you misunderstood my post. I'm simply stating my thoughts as to why I thought Dylan to be more of a 'mess' than Eric. It's an opinion. I'm not trying to reinvent canon here.

I didn't state that Eric was hiding under a facade. I said that Dylan was and he may have pitied Eric because it was easier for HIM to hide his inner turmoil and lead a more normal social life. ("Not me, I'm 6'4. But they give Eric hell.") I never claimed that Eric was normal or intended to completely absolve him of his own violent tendencies either. I don't think Eric was merely a lackey in any sense, though I do hold that Dylan had quite an influence on his personal tastes and behavior to an extent. I know he didn't depend on Dylan for everything and wasn't always at his beck and call. And I didn't say that he lacked other friends besides Dylan, only that he lacked a close relationship with any of them and Dylan was willing to fill that role.

I agree that Eric and Dylan's hatred and violent ideation reinforced the other, but those streaks might have shown in Zach, Chris and Nate behind closed doors as well. That's why I said that I think Dylan discussed fantasies and scenarios WITH Chris, Zach and Eric, not merely unloading all of his sick thoughts onto them. I think they discussed back and forth, exchanging ideas about what they'd like to do to this person or that person, or a building or institution they'd like to blow up or take hostage, ect. Dylan may have been trying to discern who was the most receptive to his ideas and what may come of it in the future.

I didn't miss the part where Dylan called Eric "crazy". I read Sue's book as well. Obviously Eric's behavior was problematic even for Dylan. I used the word 'clingy' because Eric not only had a history of calling girls and emailing them repeatedly with no response, but he took excuses not to hang out personally and to me that is a sign of clingy behavior. It's a "if you can't hang out with me I assume you have a problem with me" type of thing.

I'm aware Dylan's depression made him mind-numbingly apathetic. Depression does numb you and you can't bring yourself to care about anything, like I said in my post. When I said he 'thought poorly' of his friends, I meant that toward the end they meant little to him and their feelings about what he was about to do didn't matter. He grossly underestimated what he meant to his loved ones and disregarded all they had done for him. Any way you play it, it will always be fucked up to go through with a plan to murder hundreds of your own classmates with the possibility of taking out your OWN friends. ("Morris, Nate, if you live...")

Obviously he couldn't wait to die, but not having to deal with the aftermath of his carnage was probably an appealing thought. His words are curt and to the point in their last video before the attack. I say he was indifferent to his parents because when Eric brought up Dylan's parents, he simply remarked, "It's my life, I'll do what I want with it."

I am sorry. You are right on several points.I misunderstood what you wrote, so I hope you will accept my apologies.

Anyway, back to Dylan, my favorite subject. Dylan is a tragedy, and to this day, I don't understand why his friends didn't do more to help him, but my impression is that Dylan was partly suspectible to peer influence. Dylan's journal indicates that he latched onto Eric and Chris because he felt that he might lose them, like he lost Zack; this betrayal reinforced his depression and anger. But because Dylan was so focused on his own death, he allowed Eric to take his "idea" down the field because Eric was already headed down a destructive path.

So, in summation, you are right. Dylan was more of a mess than Eric. Although Eric gave off more weird, violent vibes.

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. I used the word 'clingy' because Eric not only had a history of calling girls and emailing them repeatedly with no response, but he took excuses not to hang out personally and to me that is a sign of clingy behavior. It's a "if you can't hang out with me I assume you have a problem with me" type of thing.

Eric was called a "live wire," who didn't take rejection lightly. He had threatened numerous girls over the phone and via email. He even setup a separate hit list for females who turned him down.( I would not want to date Eric Harris because I probably wouldn't live to tell the story. )At times, his paranoia borders on psychosis. I think that might explain why Eric felt no physical enjoyment in the library. He was performing a soldier's duty to eliminate those whom he thought had held him down or were inferior.

jada887 wrote:

I honestly don't think it's normal for 12 year old to buy GI Joes from a friend in order to mutiliate them; I don't suppose it's normal to play with matches and lighters as young as nine, only to almost burn your own house down and a bridge; and I don't assume it's normal behavior to build pipebombs before you reach adolescence.

Destroying GI Joes and other toys/action figures isn't unusual little boy behavior. I knew kids who kept those little green plastic army men for the sole purpose of destroying them, sometimes in pretty creative ways. I don't think these examples are definite indications that someone has psychotic tendencies, but that's just based on my own observations from people I've known who displayed similar traits, and ultimately grew up to be normal, healthy adults.  I think a lot of Eric's interests stemmed from his upbringing and what he was exposed to.

As far as the bridge burning incident goes, I don't think there's any proof that it ever actually happened. Didn't he only tell that story to a girl he was dating? I'm a little rusty on my research. But the way Eric bragged about his lying abilities, I doubt the bridge burning story is even true. And I wasn't aware of the story about him almost burning his own house down!

I agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], what a kid plays with is by no means an indicator of what they will be like when they grow up. I know someone who used to play with Tickle Me Elmo, Tickle Me Cookie Monster and watched "Blues Clues" and he turned out to be a psychopath. And the purpose of army men is to play with them like they are in the army (war, battles, shooting things, destroying things, invasions). It is what they're made for.

I'm more of a data person, and I don't readily trust instinct when it comes to what is "normal" behavior for boys at that age. I don't suppose most young boys would heat metal clips to insert into their GI Joes' chests, but I have no way of knowing for certain because I am not an expert on childhood development.
Okay, let's go back to what we do know about Eric. The incident about the bridge comes from Sasha Jacobs' testimony to police. I have no way of proving the validity of Jacobs's testimony, so you'll have to weigh that evidence yourself. Now, as to Eric almost burning down his own house in Plattsburgh, that comes from an interview I conducted with one of Eric's childhood friends ten years ago. Apparently the two boys were playing with matches outside, and Eric dropped a lit match by a bush. Anyway, this childhood friend (he asked me not to reveal his name when I interviewed him) said that Eric loved playing with fireworks; he had a strong fascination with fire, as well, because he loved to watch "shit get destroyed."He didn't think that that was bizarre behavior at the time, but in hindsight, it's freaky, he said.
Anyway, Eric/Dylan's behavior makes perfect sense when you consider Columbine's toxic culture and the intense bullying that went on there. That's not to say that mental illness doesn't warp reality. That was true for Dylan, and to a certain extent, Eric.

um....

jada887 wrote:

I'm more of a data person, and I don't readily trust instinct when it comes to what is "normal" behavior for boys at that age. I don't suppose most young boys would heat metal clips to insert into  their GI Joes' chests, but I have no way of knowing for certain because I am not an expert on childhood development.
Okay, let's go back to what we do know about Eric. The incident about the bridge comes from Sasha Jacobs' testimony to police. I have no way of proving the validity of Jacobs's testimony, so you'll have to weigh that evidence yourself. Now, as to Eric almost burning down his own house in Plattsburgh, that comes from an interview I conducted with one of Eric's childhood friends ten years ago. Apparently the two boys were playing with matches outside, and Eric dropped a lit match by a bush. Anyway, this childhood friend (he asked me not to reveal his name when I interviewed him) said that Eric loved playing with fireworks; he had a strong fascination with fire, as well, because he loved to watch "shit get destroyed."He didn't think that that was bizarre behavior at the time, but in hindsight, it's freaky, he said.
Anyway, Eric/Dylan's behavior makes perfect sense when you consider Columbine's toxic culture and the intense bullying that went on there. That's not to say that mental illness doesn't warp reality. That was true for Dylan, and to a certain extent, Eric.

I won't say it is normal to start fires, but there are a ton of kids that play with matches. Myself included. I did start a fire on our boat when I was growing up. It was not on purpose, I was stupid and young and freaked out. I am a mostly normal person now with no homicidal thoughts. I don't know, I think if you took Eric's childhood and early teen background and showed it to someone that had no idea what Columbine was, that that person wouldn't think anything of anything Eric did. I think even if he had more "damaging" interests they still on their own were pretty innocuous. I think his later thinking is more worrisome.

See, now, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you and I are gonna clash cause I am all instinct and instincts don't lie. You seem very determined to prove Eric was a headcase. All those things you point out doesn't prove anything.

And now that you brought up interviewing a childhood friend of his and all people might ask you to prove that. Also, what would his childhood friend know anyway? Anyone who ever knew Dylan and Eric hardly knew who they really were at all. Are we forgetting they carefully chose how they portray themselves to different people?

I feel like you keep going on very specifically but are all over the place with what you're trying to point out.

To be honest, I never thought of Eric and Dylan as 100% crazy at all. I know they were no James Holmes or Elliot Rodgers. BUT, was there a faulty-wiring in Eric? Definitely. Alot of his reaction to things and his anger/rejection issues were quite worrying, I think the way his family brought him up played a part. I won't really cover Dylan cause that boy was pure depression.
The better way to see it is, let's say Eric got everything he wanted, every single thing from a girl to success in friends and school/career, would he be happy and was able to get by? Because to me it seemed like he tried and he gave up when nothing came his way and by then Dylan pitched a massacre to him. I see a huge difference from other mass shooters cause Eric was a fairly normal kid who accomplished a couple of things if not more, same for Dylan.

shades wrote:

See, now, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you and I are gonna clash cause I am all instinct and instincts don't lie. You seem very determined to prove Eric was a headcase. All those things you point out doesn't prove anything.

And now that you brought up interviewing a childhood friend of his and all people might ask you to prove that. Also, what would his childhood friend know anyway? Anyone who ever knew Dylan and Eric hardly knew who they really were at all. Are we forgetting they carefully chose how they portray themselves to different people?

I feel like you keep going on very specifically but are all over the place with what you're trying to point out.

Agreed. Someone who knew Eric even very well at 10 years old really did not know the 18 year old Eric. People who knew him back when he was younger were shocked. The people in Colorado that knew him were not shocked at all.

Lizpuff wrote:

I won't say it is normal to start fires, but there are a ton of kids that play with matches.  Myself included.  I did start a fire on our boat when I was growing up.  It was not on purpose, I was stupid and young and freaked out.  I am a mostly normal person now with no homicidal thoughts.  I don't know,  I think if you took Eric's childhood and early teen background and showed it to someone that had no idea what Columbine was, that that person wouldn't think anything of anything Eric did.  I think even if he had more "damaging" interests they still on their own were pretty innocuous.  I think his later thinking is more worrisome.

I agree with this. I'm pretty sure if Eric never committed the massacre he would look back on his childhood interests and probably laugh about it.

Take for instance all my male cousin's. All of them were little pyros growing up and they were all handling weapons at very young ages due to all the older men in my family being involved in hunting. They could be destructive little shits with their toys - they decapitated their action figures, pulled off their limbs, burned them, drug them behind their four wheelers, ran them over, buried them... You'd find pieces of them all over their yards.  All of their toys were beat up or completely ruined. And as adults? They're completely stable and level-headed with good jobs. I think the same could be said for Eric and even Dylan if they hadnt decided to carry out a massacre.

When I was around 10 I remember I tied my jumping chord around a cat's neck tightly and it managed to escape my hands and run off probably choking a bit on it until a neighbour saved it - most likely caue i had no empathy at that point.

Guess what I'm studying for in uni now : Yup , veterinary medicine (6years). I have tried my best to help cats since then by giving them food and shelter, they're definitely a soft spot for me. Even at this age when I see an injured cat I cry like a baby.

Until late teens people gradually build empathy, so having kids do creepy shit isn't really an indicator for future problems.

shades wrote:

See, now, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you and I are gonna clash cause I am all instinct and instincts don't lie.

Sometimes instincts can lie. Be careful.

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You seem very determined to prove Eric was a headcase. All those things you point out doesn't prove anything.

I never said Eric was crazy. He may have had mental illness, same as Dylan. That's not insanity.

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And now that you brought up interviewing a childhood friend of his and all people might ask you to prove that. Also, what would his childhood friend know anyway?

I can't speak for what Eric's childhood friends have said. The few that have spoken to the public have stated that Eric seemed normal, if painfully shy. I interviewed anonymous for my thesis in college. I respect his right to privacy, as he has already spoken to the press in the early days of the tragedy, and doesn't want to answer anymore questions about Columbine or Eric. That quote is in my 60+ page thesis on juvenile criminology. There is only a small section on Columbine, not much of interest to anyone else here. But if anyone wants to see the document, they can email me, and I will gladly scan the Columbine pages.

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Anyone who ever knew Dylan and Eric hardly knew who they really were at all. Are we forgetting they carefully chose how they portray themselves to different people?

True. I never said they weren't. They were playing roles. So what?

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I feel like you keep going on very specifically but are all over the place with what you're trying to point out.

Ok, I admit I tend to be all over the place. But here is what I am getting: neither Eric nor Dylan were mentally insane or crazy; they may have had personality disorders, but we will never know for certain. I think both boys were more or less equal partners in crime; they had a mutual dependency that I will never understand. Although Eric may have done more for NBK, that's not to say Dylan didn't plan as well.
In summation, I think it's misleading to say that one was more messed up than the other. If we really want to know how Dylan/Eric got so messed up, you don't need to look beyond Columbine for most of your answers.

jada887 wrote:

Anyone who ever knew Dylan and Eric hardly knew who they really were at all. Are we forgetting they carefully chose how they portray themselves to different people?

True. I never said they weren't. They were playing roles. So what?

So what? SO you can't take what childhood friend said to prove your point let alone being at that age of 10/pre-teen. How Eric was doesn't determine why he did Columbine. Aren't you contradicting yourself? You can't even take Eric's playing habits to prove jack!

jada887 wrote:

neither Eric nor Dylan were mentally insane or crazy; they may have had personality disorders, but we will never know for certain. I think both boys were more or less equal partners in crime; they had a mutual dependency that I will never understand. Although Eric may have done more for NBK, that's not to say Dylan didn't have plan as well.
In summation, I think it's misleading to say that one was more messed up than the other. Columbine's toxic culture played a large role in understanding the tragedy.

Thank you. Now I very much see what you're getting at.

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Someone who becomes angry easily, over silly things, subconsciously desires to be loved.

This reminds me of Eric

jada887 wrote:

shades wrote:

See, now, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], you and I are gonna clash cause I am all instinct and instincts don't lie.

Sometimes instincts can lie. Be careful.

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You seem very determined to prove Eric was a headcase. All those things you point out doesn't prove anything.

I never said Eric was crazy. He may have had mental illness, same as Dylan. That's not insanity.

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And now that you brought up interviewing a childhood friend of his and all people might ask you to prove that. Also, what would his childhood friend know anyway?

I can't speak for what Eric's childhood friends have said. The few that have spoken to the public have stated that Eric seemed normal, if painfully shy. I interviewed anonymous for my thesis in college. I respect his right to privacy, as he has already spoken to the press in the early days of the tragedy, and doesn't want to answer anymore questions about Columbine or Eric. That quote is in my 60+ page thesis on juvenile criminology. There is only a small section on Columbine, not much of interest to anyone else here. But if anyone wants to see the document, they can email me, and I will gladly scan the Columbine pages.

Quote :

Anyone who ever knew Dylan and Eric hardly knew who they really were at all. Are we forgetting they carefully chose how they portray themselves to different people?

True. I never said they weren't. They were playing roles. So what?

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I feel like you keep going on very specifically but are all over the place with what you're trying to point out.

Ok, I admit I tend to be all over the place. But here is what I am getting: neither Eric nor Dylan were mentally insane or crazy; they may have had personality disorders, but we will never know for certain. I think both boys were more or less equal partners in crime; they had a mutual dependency that I will never understand. Although Eric may have done more for NBK, that's not to say Dylan didn't plan as well.
In summation, I think it's misleading to say that one was more messed up than the other. If we really want to know how Dylan/Eric got so messed up, you don't need to look beyond Columbine for most of your answers.

I would be interested in reading the document you wrote!

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I must say you really have some interesting points. So do you really think Eric and Dylan had any mental illnesses at all? Even though Sue claimed her son has for a long time. How would you define insanity? Do you think Columbine's toxic environment and their mental instabilities contributed to their downfalls?

Is it safe to say that Eric's downfall plummeted the most when he first entered Columbine so meaning from the start of his teen years, and that Dylan had been depressed throughout, even before Eric.

So which means the pressure that teenagers feel and their issues really brought the worst out of Eric, and that's when we are finally able to see the fault in his mind more clearly. Adding medication to the mix and you produce erratic actions.

Is mental illness something you could cure and work on whereas insanity is straight up unrecoverable, pretty much doomed for life (Elliot Rodgers, Cho)?

Now that I review this thread, I think it's fair to say that while Dylan was more of a mess which I agree on, Eric actually had more to lose. Initially I said Dylan because he had good foundation/family/friends+ people liked him.

But Eric could actually be saved. I think that boy had alot of determination to attempt things but he freaks out when he fails. What if Eric succeeded? What if he made his dad proud?

I probably would also say Columbine not only contributed to their doomed fates, but it's possible it escalated/accelerated it at a much quicker paste. What do you think?

aquillina wrote:

I probably would also say Columbine not only contributed to their doomed fates, but it's possible it escalated/accelerated it at a much quicker paste. What do you think?

I would agree because Columbine = teenage years/high school life and we know the hell on earth it was to be a teen. I know when I was in high school holy shit I thought I was unredeemable.

shades wrote:

Now that I review this thread, I think it's fair to say that while Dylan was more of a mess which I agree on, Eric actually had more to lose. Initially I said Dylan because he had good foundation/family/friends+ people liked him.

But Eric could actually be saved. I think that boy had alot of determination to attempt things but he freaks out when he fails. What if Eric succeeded? What if he made his dad proud?

I still believe both boys were on equal terms on how much they had given up. In addition both boys had the potential to change and succeed if they were ever given the chance to prove themselves. Sadly it never did.

aquillina wrote:

Do you think Columbine's toxic environment and their mental instabilities contributed to their downfalls?

I apologize once again for causing confusion. Dpression is defined as mental illness; there is no question Dylan was depressed. However, I am not entirely sure what disorder Dylan might have had because he never received psychological treatment. It's very difficult to clinically diagnose disorders after death because you cannot individually observe the client's behaviors. All we know about Dylan's mental health is what he wrote.  

There is little to suggest Dylan was clinically insane. Psychosis is linked to insanity; psychotic individuals see and hear hallucinations, but someone could be clinically insane and still can distinguish between right and wrong. However, I want to make this very clear: mental illness doesn't have a strong correlation to homicide. Only 4 percent of homicides are linked to the shooter's  mental health, so most depressives like Dylan don't commit homicide; he's an outlier.

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I would be interested in reading the document you wrote!

I wrote my thesis in 2006 on an IBM personal wheelwriter because I found I could easily bind the pages to make a book for presentation purposes. I have the typed manuscript somewhere in my closet. I don't want to scan 60+ pages on non-Columbine material, but I believe there are only one or two pages. I will have to check.

jada887 wrote:

Quote :

I would be interested in reading the document you wrote!

I wrote my thesis in 2006 on an IBM personal wheelwriter because I found I could easily bind the pages to make a book for presentation purposes. I have the typed manuscript somewhere in my closet. I don't want to scan 60+ pages on non-Columbine material, but I believe there are only one or two pages. I will have to check.

Don't stress yourself out over it. I just find things like this interesting

shades wrote:

Anyone who ever knew Dylan and Eric hardly knew who they really were at all. Are we forgetting they carefully chose how they portray themselves to different people?

You're suggesting that these two idiots were somehow master manipulator chameleon's, which I'm quite sure isn't the reality. They lied to gullible people and held stuff back like "yeah we are gonna do a shooting". They weren't smart in any way.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] well yea you do have a point. They did straight up told people they were gonna shoot. But yet a statement like that could be meant as a joke. Is that really gullible?

x5000x wrote:

You're suggesting that these two idiots were somehow master manipulator chameleon's, which I'm quite sure isn't the reality. They lied to gullible people and held stuff back like "yeah we are gonna do a shooting". They weren't smart in any way.

You. I like you.

Tell me there wasn't a time they weren't manipulative though. Teach me the difference from lying for your own means to manipulation.

Reading Erics journal I felt really concerned how dark his fantasy was. Each entry coming closer to the judgement day felt like it was progressing into something very sinister. I think anyone saying he could be helped doesn't understand that both these guys made up there mind that the world was against (except a select few). I think both Eric and Dylan were the mess. They lived out their fantasy and for them it was even easier then sleeping with their crush or whatever they felt was impossible for them at that age. The disturbing part was that had someone been aware of their fantasy they could of been snapped out of deciding peoples fate isn't up to a mortal person. That is plain evil and i do not think Eric thought what he was doing was evil. He wrote about it like it was a mission he had deemed neccesary. I am not sure about Dylan but I am sure that what they did was literally a built up fantasy of their own self importance in the world as judge and jury and executioner which is plain dead set disturbing evil.

The sad part is as the creator of South Park mentioned is that these guys had so much more life and high school sucks but its just a small chunk to get through. College may suck a bit too but at least you get to meet more friends. Highschool is like a pressure cooker for trouble with the outsiders. Where as College seems to embrace that different culture. You are sure to find people that like you.

dreamzone wrote:

and i do not think Eric thought what he was doing was evil. He wrote about it like it was a mission he had deemed neccesary.

I like this point that you brought up. He did look at the massacre like a mission and something justifiable to do. He didn't see it as wrong, and I understand the perspective when you don't look at something that's traditionally wrong to do as so but rather as reasonable because it's your choice. He did write an entry something like "Just because people tell you something is wrong and violence is bad doesn't mean it is". I mean, he had that mindset where one can't believe everything society tells you, You do what you want to do and you make your own rules.

afrrs wrote:

i believe so , moving all the time , gaining friends and losing them pretty quick , he didnt had a fixed place to properly grow up . Eric says in his goodbye video in the morning before the shooting spree .

dylan on the other hand was in littleton most of his life , so it was easier in a way for dylan .

dylan had more to lose than eric , i think .

Was Eric more a mess? No not in my opinion. I think Eric's friendship with Dylan brought out the worst in both. We have no idea how Eric's life was pre 4/20. Well we know very little. Seems anyone that knew him is tight lipped. I grew up moving a bit because my father worked for the Government. I don't think I am no worse off because of it. I do understand how Eric felt though. At any rate I maintain Eric was more honest with himself than Dylan was. Eric knew he had anger issues, that he was "suicidal" at times (I even doubt this to an extent based on perhaps how the question was worded on his assessment). Eric took his assessment with seriousness. He says his goodbyes which tells me he has remorse but is more driven by his overwhelming anger at the world.

I think Eric and Dylan fed off one another. Dylan wanted to die but had no balls to do it. Eric was mad enough at the world to accomplish that. They fed into each other given each other what they desired.

aquillina wrote:

So even if Dylan did attend ASU do you think he would have still had the desire to shoot up another school something?

It's a bit controversial to suggest, but personally I think Dylan was a ticking time bomb. I think if he had decided to not go through with attacking Columbine, he would've been just as unhappy in college, if not more, and in turn the rage and envy he'd hold for his peers would spurn him on to commit an attack at ASU if he had the chance.

I'm less certain with Eric, but I wouldn't have high hopes for a bright future.

Kiwik wrote:

Destroying GI Joes and other toys/action figures isn't unusual little boy behavior. I knew kids who kept those little green plastic army men for the sole purpose of destroying them, sometimes in pretty creative ways. I don't think these examples are definite indications that someone has psychotic tendencies, but that's just based on my own observations from people I've known who displayed similar traits, and ultimately grew up to be normal, healthy adults.

I think it's important to take everything into account here though. On its own roughhousing your toys as a kid isn't anything to be concerned about, but when you view it in the context of the rest of Eric's behaviors and actions that were definitely concerning, it starts to look like a warning sign.