the morning of 4/20 and E/D parents

I was wondering if anyone knew whether the Harris's said anything about their contact with Eric the morning of 4/20? In the Oprah essay, I think Sue Klebold talks about how she heard Dylan leaving and said, "Dyl?" and all he said was "Bye." To me, it seems like if you knew you would never see your parents again, wouldn't you want to say more than "Bye?" Wouldn't you want to tell them you loved them one more time or hug them one more time or something? I guess maybe not because it might make what they were going to do harder. Eric mentions something like that in the basement tapes in terms of not wanting to spend more time with his parents to make it easier.  Since Eric seemed especially sorry toward his parents, I can't help but wonder if he said anything or interacted with them at all that morning. I don't think I ever read anything about that though. Also, does anyone know if it is true that Eric's mom said to police when they wanted to go downstairs into Eric's room that "You can't go in there. We don't even go in there?" A radio host in my area kept saying that this exchange took place, but I never read any evidence that confirmed it.

I do remember reading somewhere that Eric's mother did tell police they couldn't go down into Eric's room, like she wanted them to stay away from Eric's room/belongings. But, I don't remember reading anything about her saying that they(her/Wayne) didn't even go down there.

I haven't read anything that discusses what Eric said to his parents that morning.

Quote :

Wouldn't you want to tell them you loved them one more time or hug them one more time or something? I guess maybe not because it might make what they were going to do harder.

If they started thinking about how to make things easier for their parents, they might have doubted themselves -"Just why are we doing this anyway?" However they acted on that morning, I'm sure if was a product of their teenage brains coping with the trauma of what they were about to do.

Wasn't that Nixon tape that Eric left behind a goodbye tape to his parents?

In the phone call Wayne made to the police he said he did not speak to Eric that day. I also agree with Having a conversation with their parents and seeing them would make it even harder.

Pages 010222-010223:

WHEELDON was requested to respond to a suspect, ERIC HARRIS' residence along with several other officers. Upon arrival at HARRIS' house, WHEELDON and WSZOLEK. watched the rear side of the house while other officers approached and made contact at the front door, upon contacting the occupants of the residence, WHEELD0N and WSZOLEK walked to the front door and began assisting. Not knowing if the suspect ERIC HARRIS was hiding inside the house or if evidence was being destroyed, officers entered the house at the front door.

Once inside the residence, WHEELDON learned that there were three known people occupying the house upon the arrival of the police. These individuals were identified as Mr and Mrs HARRIS and Mrs HARRIS' sister, both Mr and Mrs HARRIS were uncooperative with police by initially refusing to allow police to enter their residence to search of ERIC. Mr HARRIS stated to officers that his lawyer was on his way over. WHEELDON smelled a very strong odor of automobile engine gasoline throughout the HARRIS' house. WHEELDON asked Mr. HARRIS if the odor of gas was normal and he replied "no". Officers explained to the HARRIS' that exigent circumstances existed and that for officer safety issues, a search for their son ERIC needed to be conducted throughout the residence. The HARRIS' with hesitation, verbally agreed to allow officers to search the house for their son ERIC. Knowing that bombs were involved, WHEELDON attempted to locate the source of the gasoline odor. WHEELDON walked through the living room and into the HARRIS' two car garage at which time it was obvious that the gas odor was originating from within the HARRIS' garage because of the heaviness of the odor.

WHEELDON returned inside the house and began looking for ERIC. During the search for ERIC, WHEELDON observed the HARRIS' house to be a three level structure with the dining room, kitchen, living room and garage on the ground level. On the upper level there were several bedrooms, a bathroom and a loft which had been made into an office. The lower level contained two rooms one of which was later identified as ERIC's bedroom. Mrs HARRIS accompanied WHEELDON upstairs and she showed WHEELDON inside each room. After completing his search for ERIC upstairs, WHEELDON and Mrs HARRIS walked back down stairs to the ground level. WHEELDON asked Mrs HARRIS what was on the lower level and she replied ERlc's room. WHEELDON and Sheridan Police Officer GREG MILLER began walking downstairs towards ERIC's room, when Mrs HARRIS stated, " I don't want you going down there'. Mrs HARRIS was again explained that for officer and the public's safety, officers needed to go downstairs to look for any possible threats and Mrs HARRIS replied "ok". MILLER and WHEELDON walked downstairs to the lower level of the house. Once downstairs, WHEELDON walked into a bedroom located on the south west corner of the basement. The bedroom door was open and WHEELDON walked inside with his gun drawn looking for ERIC. Once inside the room, WHEELDON observed a clear plastic bag containing an unknown amount of shot gun she Vis on the bed. An unknown gauge shot gun with a sling was hanging in clear view on the side of a dresser table inside the bedroom. After clearing the basement, WHEELDON and MILLER returned to the ground level of the residence. It was decided that due to the gas vapors and the possibility of a bomb inside the house, the house would be evacuated.

All police personnel and civilians left the house and the bomb squad was notified and later responded. While awaiting the bomb squad, WHEELDON was approached by Mrs HARRIS' sister. She said that herself, Mr and Mrs HARRIS were afraid of retaliation from the parents whom their children were killed at high school. WHEELDON noticed while standing outside with the HARRIS' that neither Mr nor Mrs HARRIS appeared upset or surprised of what was happening.

The HARRIS' lawyer arrived on scene and began talking to the HARRIS'. Littleton Fire Dept arrived and it was decided to evacuate the entire block for safety reasons. As officers awaited for the bomb squad to arrive, several members of the news media began arriving on scene. A police line had been established and no unauthorized personnel was allowed to penetrate the line.

The bomb squad arrived on scene and evaluated the situation, several members of the bomb team entered the HARRIS'S residence in search of explosive devises. When they returned outside, it was learned that they had discovered an explosive devise in the lower level room (ERIC's bedroom). The bomb was reportedly found on the same dresser table where HEELGON had previously observed the shot gun. The bomb squad safely and without incident removed the devise from the HARRIS'S residence.

The house was secured and WHEELDON along with other officers were relieved of their duty at the HARRIS' house. Several other officers remained or location while awaiting a search warrant. WHEELDON responded back to the command post where a short time later he was released from the scene with no other involvement.

sororityalpha wrote:

Pages 010222-010223:

WHEELDON noticed while standing outside with the HARRIS' that neither Mr nor Mrs HARRIS appeared upset or surprised of what was happening.

This part always bothered me. I don't understand what Wheeldon expected them to do, what would be an adequate reaction? At this point I think I would be in great denial and shock. I can't imagine processing much of anything. Would fainting/crying/screaming/clawing at the ground be sufficient? "Surprised", walking around open-mouthed? I just don't really know what to think of it.

Kinney wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

Pages 010222-010223:

WHEELDON noticed while standing outside with the HARRIS' that neither Mr nor Mrs HARRIS appeared upset or surprised of what was happening.

This part always bothered me. I don't understand what Wheeldon expected them to do, what would be an adequate reaction? At this point I think I would be in great denial and shock. I can't imagine processing much of anything. Would fainting/crying/screaming/clawing at the ground be sufficient? "Surprised", walking around open-mouthed? I just don't really know what to think of it.

Firstly, thanks for the information and replies all. I appreciate it.
Kinney, I kind of think that maybe this is telling of the kind of people the Harris's were. Obviously, nobody really knows how they felt, but their reaction to what was happening suggests to me that they are the sort of people who believe emotions are a weakness and hide them from others. Maybe this is because they seem to be kind of on the quiet side and maybe this is also because of the military background. I agree with you that it is really hard to say how a person should react in these circumstances, but I think it is telling to a certain degree that they didn't show much emotion. Maybe this is part of the reason that Eric developed emotional problems  because he wasn't taught how to properly express them from his parents. I also feel very wary when people in these circumstance are more concerned with being protected legally than doing everything they can to help the police with the investigation, at least in the beginning anyway. It adds to the lack of emotions in my opinion that they were more concerned with their lawyer and keeping the police out of their property than with the fact that their son was killing people and might be dead himself.

btvs899705 wrote:

Kinney wrote:

sororityalpha wrote:

Pages 010222-010223:

WHEELDON noticed while standing outside with the HARRIS' that neither Mr nor Mrs HARRIS appeared upset or surprised of what was happening.

This part always bothered me. I don't understand what Wheeldon expected them to do, what would be an adequate reaction? At this point I think I would be in great denial and shock. I can't imagine processing much of anything. Would fainting/crying/screaming/clawing at the ground be sufficient? "Surprised", walking around open-mouthed? I just don't really know what to think of it.

Firstly, thanks for the information and replies all. I appreciate it.
Kinney, I kind of think that maybe this is telling of the kind of people the Harris's were. Obviously, nobody really knows how they felt, but their reaction to what was happening suggests to me that they are the sort of people who believe emotions are a weakness and hide them from others. Maybe this is because they seem to be kind of on the quiet side and maybe this is also because of the military background. I agree with you that it is really hard to say how a person should react in these circumstances, but I think it is telling to a certain degree that they didn't show much emotion. Maybe this is part of the reason that Eric developed emotional problems  because he wasn't taught how to properly express them from his parents. I also feel very wary when people in these circumstance are more concerned with being protected legally than doing everything they can to help the police with the investigation, at least in the beginning anyway. It adds to the lack of emotions in my opinion that they were more concerned with their lawyer and keeping the police out of their property than with the fact that their son was killing people and might be dead himself.

Couldn't agree with you more on all points!

btvs899705 wrote:

Kinney, I kind of think that maybe this is telling of the kind of people the Harris's were. Obviously, nobody really knows how they felt, but their reaction to what was happening suggests to me that they are the sort of people who believe emotions are a weakness and hide them from others. Maybe this is because they seem to be kind of on the quiet side and maybe this is also because of the military background. I agree with you that it is really hard to say how a person should react in these circumstances, but I think it is telling to a certain degree that they didn't show much emotion. Maybe this is part of the reason that Eric developed emotional problems  because he wasn't taught how to properly express them from his parents. I also feel very wary when people in these circumstance are more concerned with being protected legally than doing everything they can to help the police with the investigation, at least in the beginning anyway. It adds to the lack of emotions in my opinion that they were more concerned with their lawyer and keeping the police out of their property than with the fact that their son was killing people and might be dead himself.

Excellent points!

I have had discussions long ago (elsewhere) about the the parts of your post that I underlined and italicized. It was not received very well by those that I shared it with back then, and I am happy to see that there are people here who can at least entertain the idea that this could possibly be the case. I strongly believe that this is definitely a possibility with them, and a big piece to the so called "puzzle" of Eric. I think that he completely repressed all of his emotions that weren't angry or "masculine" (making him even more angry), and I believe it had a lot to do with how he was raised. A lot of that, if it is indeed the case, was "all on him"/his responsibility to try and work through, but again, he was only 18 for barely 11 days when this happened, so, some of the responsibility more than likely lies elsewhere.

I know this is a very touchy subject, and I will admit outright that if I were in their position and remained out of the public eye to the best of my ability, and mourned privately, and found out that people were saying I didn't allow my child to express his emotions when they didn't even know me, I'd be quite infuriated (if I paid any mind to it in the first place). There is no question that their behavior in multiple instances (most notably the morning of the massacre, of course) raises a lot of suspicion.

tfsa47090 wrote:

btvs899705 wrote:

Kinney, I kind of think that maybe this is telling of the kind of people the Harris's were. Obviously, nobody really knows how they felt, but their reaction to what was happening suggests to me that they are the sort of people who believe emotions are a weakness and hide them from others. Maybe this is because they seem to be kind of on the quiet side and maybe this is also because of the military background. I agree with you that it is really hard to say how a person should react in these circumstances, but I think it is telling to a certain degree that they didn't show much emotion. Maybe this is part of the reason that Eric developed emotional problems  because he wasn't taught how to properly express them from his parents. I also feel very wary when people in these circumstance are more concerned with being protected legally than doing everything they can to help the police with the investigation, at least in the beginning anyway. It adds to the lack of emotions in my opinion that they were more concerned with their lawyer and keeping the police out of their property than with the fact that their son was killing people and might be dead himself.

Excellent points!

I have had discussions long ago (elsewhere) about the the parts of your post that I underlined and italicized. It was not received very well by those that I shared it with back then, and I am happy to see that there are people here who can at least entertain the idea that this could possibly be the case. I strongly believe that this is definitely a possibility with them, and a big piece to the so called "puzzle" of Eric. I think that he completely repressed all of his emotions that weren't angry or "masculine" (making him even more angry), and I believe it had a lot to do with how he was raised. A lot of that, if it is indeed the case, was "all on him"/his responsibility to try and work through, but again, he was only 18 for barely 11 days when this happened, so, some of the responsibility more than likely lies elsewhere.

I know this is a very touchy subject, and I will admit outright that if I were in their position and remained out of the public eye to the best of my ability, and mourned privately, and found out that people were saying I didn't allow my child to express his emotions when they didn't even know me, I'd be quite infuriated (if I paid any mind to it in the first place). There is no question that their behavior in multiple instances (most notably the morning of the massacre, of course) raises a lot of suspicion.

The Harris' also seem to flat out embrace that Eric was a garden variety sociopath and that to this day, they remain perplexed.   I recall that they imparted this generally feeling while meeting with victim's parents.  That to me is like taking the easy way out. I guess it's easy to shrug it off and say "oh, well, guess my boy was one of those. a sociopath. that explains it in a nutshell."  It absolves them from any sort of responsibility in their son's life or how they may have had the slightest part in shaping his life. Even if they stated that all the moving around was a mistake. That would've been honorable and relatable. It would make them seem more human in their struggles.  The Klebold's worked overtime trying to figure out what they did wrong but one can't say that the Harris' closely examined how they may have played a part as parent's of this boy.  Again, I believe a big part of the equation is Mr. Harris and his in-control, emotionally unavailable guarded personality.  The mother seems very 1950s submissive to me, too.  Very gentle, meek, submissive and cries at the drop of a hat when the Brown's confronted her regarding complaints about Eric.  She seems to stand by her man and will stand united and not voice a personal, independent thought or opinion in the slightest.  Her thoughts are unknownable. Sue Klebold is vastly different and more appealing as she has made public attempts to voice her thoughts/feelings.  Anyway, Mr. Harris is/was in charge from the get go.  Got the lawyers in place after 4/20 and we never heard a stitch since.  The silence speaks volumes and alludes that they have something to hide.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

btvs899705 wrote:

Kinney, I kind of think that maybe this is telling of the kind of people the Harris's were. Obviously, nobody really knows how they felt, but their reaction to what was happening suggests to me that they are the sort of people who believe emotions are a weakness and hide them from others. Maybe this is because they seem to be kind of on the quiet side and maybe this is also because of the military background. I agree with you that it is really hard to say how a person should react in these circumstances, but I think it is telling to a certain degree that they didn't show much emotion. Maybe this is part of the reason that Eric developed emotional problems  because he wasn't taught how to properly express them from his parents. I also feel very wary when people in these circumstance are more concerned with being protected legally than doing everything they can to help the police with the investigation, at least in the beginning anyway. It adds to the lack of emotions in my opinion that they were more concerned with their lawyer and keeping the police out of their property than with the fact that their son was killing people and might be dead himself.

Excellent points!

I have had discussions long ago (elsewhere) about the the parts of your post that I underlined and italicized. It was not received very well by those that I shared it with back then, and I am happy to see that there are people here who can at least entertain the idea that this could possibly be the case. I strongly believe that this is definitely a possibility with them, and a big piece to the so called "puzzle" of Eric. I think that he completely repressed all of his emotions that weren't angry or "masculine" (making him even more angry), and I believe it had a lot to do with how he was raised. A lot of that, if it is indeed the case, was "all on him"/his responsibility to try and work through, but again, he was only 18 for barely 11 days when this happened, so, some of the responsibility more than likely lies elsewhere.

I know this is a very touchy subject, and I will admit outright that if I were in their position and remained out of the public eye to the best of my ability, and mourned privately, and found out that people were saying I didn't allow my child to express his emotions when they didn't even know me, I'd be quite infuriated (if I paid any mind to it in the first place). There is no question that their behavior in multiple instances (most notably the morning of the massacre, of course) raises a lot of suspicion.

The Harris' also seem to flat out embrace that Eric was a garden variety sociopath and that to this day, they remain perplexed.   I recall that they imparted this generally feeling while meeting with victim's parents.  That to me is like taking the easy way out.  I guess it's easy to shrug it off and say "oh, well, guess my boy was one of those. a sociopath. that explains it in a nutshell."  It absolves them from any sort of responsibility in their son's life or how they may have had the slightest part in shaping his life.  Even if they stated that all the moving around was a mistake.  That would've been honorable and relatable. It would make them seem more human in their struggles.  The Klebold's worked overtime trying to figure out what they did wrong but one can't say that the Harris' closely examined how they may have played a part as parent's of this boy.  Again, I believe a big part of the equation is Mr. Harris and his in-control, emotionally unavailable guarded personality.  The mother seems very 1950s submissive to me, too.  Very gentle, meek, submissive and cries at the drop of a hat when the Brown's confronted her regarding complaints about Eric.  She seems to stand by her man and will stand united and not voice a personal, independent thought or opinion in the slightest.  Her thoughts are unknownable. Sue Klebold is vastly different and more appealing as she has made public attempts to voice her thoughts/feelings.  Anyway, Mr. Harris is/was in charge from the get go.  Got the lawyers in place after 4/20 and we never heard a stitch since.  The silence speaks volumes and alludes that they have something to hide.

Oh my gosh, what an incredible post!!!

I've saved some of my older posts (some not that old)....it's almost scaring me that you've said many of the same things I did before; sort of the same wavelength! I'm glad others feel similarly, and that they're willing to discuss it.

Your intuition about the character of his parents is giving me chills. I have felt the same way about them (the character descriptions you've mentioned in your post) for SO, SO long. I can basically sense it.

I'm just going to post (copy/paste) my old saved posts from elsewhere here. Not necessarily as an actual, direct response, but to add to the brilliant points you have made :


"....I agree that Dylan wanted to simply die. I also think Eric wanted to die. I don’t think he just resigned himself to the fact that he had to so he wouldn’t go to jail, like I see a lot of people saying. I truly believe Eric desperately hated himself. I feel he struggled with it for most of his insanely short life, too. I feel like he also stopped sharing his feelings because he was often told to stop whining. I don’t know how to fully explain why I feel that, I just do. I think he was once very open, and very emotional, and I think he was shot down by someone at home. I really do. And, every time he tried to find someone he could get close to, he was yanked away from them due to his parents always moving. And, every time he’d cry or complain about how sad that made him, and how much it hurt him,  he’d be told to shut up and act like a man. I know I could be wrong about that, but that’s just what I sense. The constant moving itself completely screwed him up and made him very hesitant to get close to people over time. The cycle of what happened and the reactions he’d receive to his emotions made him just shut down. And, he’d deny these feelings to himself over time, because all he came to know were negative reactions when he’d express them. In time, I think he deeply resented whoever was doing this to him at home, but he couldn’t react to them the way he’d like. I’m not saying his parents didn’t love him, I just think they weren’t tolerant of his true, emotional and sensitive nature. He buried it, and tried to control it, and all that did was make him violently angry."




"I truly believe Eric was not allowed to be the sensitive and emotional person he actually was at home (I know I’ve been blabbing about this in other posts. Sorry for being so repetitive). I think any time he met someone who potentially accepted him when he was younger, he was taken away from them with all of the moving around he was forced to do. I think when he showed this part of himself, it was rejected and ridiculed, and any lack of acceptance after that from his peers was accentuated due to this happening when he was younger. It reminded him of how badly it hurt him when someone in his household rejected/ridiculed who he truly was inside. He probably tried to express himself and explain himself, and he was probably forced to stop discussing it. When he finally settled down somewhere, many of the people there were very narrow minded, boring, shallow, and cliquey, and that is why he so desperately longed to be back in touch with his old friends in the other states he’d lived in.

I don’t think he was ever allowed to continue on with a discussion, when there even was one, with his parents, if it ventured into something that made them question themselves or accept his (overall harmless, to start) eccentricities and supposedly unorthodox views. Even if his mother was willing, I feel like his father didn’t want to hear it. It was all black and white, I feel. This is this, and that is that, end of discussion. I don’t think Eric’s “weirdness" was anything to be ashamed of, or bizarre. But in a sanitized, culture-less place like where they were living, it was probably deemed as such by most of the narrow minds. It was probably a relief for him to write out his thoughts, although I think he desperately NEEDED to say them, out loud. I think he was ALWAYS being told to shut up, to drop it, and any time he made a point, that he was being a wise ass/talking back. I can entirely relate to this. It is still the story of my life with my parents (and I haven’t lived with them in a LONG time, but it was never-ending back when I was a teen, and again, still is even though I don’t live with them and haven’t depended on them for anything since I was 18). Other people still do it now, especially when they feel a need to exude power or control, and something about what I’m saying threatens that, even though I am not actually trying to “threaten" anyone, I’m just being myself. 

It seems this was a real issue in that house for him. He was endlessly rejected in every way. Very lonely and isolated. And that is what he himself described himself as being in his intake form when he was seeing a psychologist after the van break in. He admitted he was feeling suicidal, homicidal, lonely, sad, angry, anxious, paranoid, and that he cried constantly. This also had to do with the drugs he was forced to be on, but I strongly believe those emotions existed without drugs. The drugs just made them exponentially worse.

I think he did genuinely love his brother, but I do feel he did not feel he could live up to him, and that he was a failure because he didn’t please his father the same way his brother seemed to. "





"[another poster: "Eric wrote that if his dad had gone to the gun show with him, how they could have bonded"]."

"YES!!! THIS is a HUGE part of why I believe what I do. I do think it was mainly his father, and I think his mother didn’t really stand up to his father when he’d berate him. Oh, yes, Eric was too sensitive and emotional, and not manly enough for his father’s liking. I really think that had a devastating impact on him in every way. I have thought this for a very, very long time.

I don’t think Eric’s interest in weapons, to start (like DOOM and all of that) were weird or out of line, nor do I feel that they were necessarily bad at first. But, yes, this whole thing in the end was partly a HUGE “fuck you" to daddy, and to himself, for not being what his dad felt he should be. I know some people may find this to be too over the top, but I think this is a gigantic factor in the bigger picture. I think a lot of what he did was to seek his father’s approval. Most, but not all, teenagers are always seeking acceptance of some kind. I know that it’s annoying that Eric and Dylan lived in a much better and more fortunate manner than a lot of people, and it pisses people off that they weren’t counting and appreciating their blessings, but when you truly do not feel accepted anywhere, including your own home, and nothing that you do seems to be what anyone wants/likes/needs, you can go a bit insane.

I remember reading about some supposed excerpts from the basement tapes ( I say supposed because the media are a bunch of lying, filthy scumbags, and there is no proof for us to see since they’ve locked the tapes up), and Eric says that his mom is always bringing him things when he’s sad, like candy and so on. I am sure, again, that they both loved him, but I don’t think emotions were a part of their dynamic. It seems like his mom would show her feelings and sympathy by giving him things instead of hugs, or an ear, or a shoulder, if that makes sense. They tried to blot out his emotions, feelings and sensitivity by putting him on notoriously horrible prescription psychotropic drugs, instead of accepting who he really was, as well, to top it off.

You can see that in the way his parents acted after everything happened. I’m not saying they had to be giving interviews, it’s ok to be private. I am a very private person, and I’d lose it if I had a kid and he did something like that and then took his own life afterward. I can’t imagine how I’d react to the media getting in my face. I’d probably end up in jail. BUT, they pretty much refused to acknowledge the victims’ families overall, while Dylan’s parents were showing a lot of emotion, empathy, sympathy, and support. Dylan’s mother reached out to each and every one of the victims’ families. Eric’s family hid away and got attorneys to hide everything. I just think as a whole that says a lot about how they deal with everything. It seems quite methodical and emotion-less. This does not mean they’re to blame, or that they’re bad, horrible people. It’s just something I’ve observed over all of these years of looking into this case."

^ I disagree. I don't think the fact they have remained so private means that they have something to hide. From all accounts that I've read, they seemed to have been loving, supportive parents. Eric was a troubled child, but it doesn't mean it was their fault. People who knew them have always spoken of how nice and well-rounded Kevin was. I personally think Eric just had deep psychological issues. It's unfair to blame the parents.

Quote :

I think that he completely repressed all of his emotions that weren't angry or "masculine" (making him even more angry), and I believe it had a lot to do with how he was raised.

You may be right, but personally I think a lot of this behavior may be genetic too. Some families are just like that. My own family is a lot like the Harris family and I've always been able to sympathize with them better than the Klebolds. I think the Harris family has a lot of pride.

My family has a lot of pride too and if the police turned up wanting to search our house, my parents would be uncooperative also, even if I'd just done what E/D did. My family would see it as an invasion of their home. My dad would feel like he'd lost his masculine authority over the house.

My own family are the kind of people who derive their sense of pride from being strong. My entire family believe that showing painful emotions in public means that you've lost control over yourself, however, showing anger in public is probably just part of standing up for yourself. I think we were just born that way. I wonder if the Harris family was a bit like this?

I could be wrong too.

I think people with Eric's type of gene pool have a harder time in life because they're always seeing things in black and white -you're either strong or your weak. They always feel the need to restore their pride.

snegopady wrote:

^ I disagree. I don't think the fact they have remained so private means that they have something to hide. From all accounts that I've read, they seemed to have been loving, supportive parents. Eric was a troubled child, but it doesn't mean it was their fault. People who knew them have always spoken of how nice and well-rounded Kevin was. I personally think Eric just had deep psychological issues. It's unfair to blame the parents.

It's unfair to entirely blame them, of course. But just as InFiNiNcEX5 has mentioned, when they met with Daniel Mauser's parents, not only did they just resign themselves to the "fact" (cough....) that he was a "sociopath", they could not find ONE thing that they might've overlooked, misunderstood, or unintentionally disregarded or brushed off. As InFiNiNcEX5 has stated, they (through the information we have from the meeting they had with the Mausers, at least) pretty much let the post-mortem "diagnosis" of "sociopathy" absolve them of ANYTHING regarding not even necessarily what their child had done, but their part in raising him. Again, as was stated in their post, they couldn't even say "well, maybe our moving around didn't help matters, even though it is not the actual reason".

I understand you are just sharing your opinion, as you're absolutely entitled to, it's just that this is a bit more than simply blaming them for their son partaking in a massacre, and more about how suspiciously they behaved during every issue their son was involved with (primarily concerning the Browns), and most importantly, on the day of the massacre, and afterward, including their behavior and statements when they met with the Mausers. I understand that you may still feel this way even if that is being taken into account. I just wanted to explain.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Quote :

I think that he completely repressed all of his emotions that weren't angry or "masculine" (making him even more angry), and I believe it had a lot to do with how he was raised.

You may be right, but personally I think a lot of this behavior may be genetic too. Some families are just like that. My own family is a lot like the Harris family and I've always been able to sympathize with them better than the Klebolds. I think the Harris family has a lot of pride.

My family has a lot of pride too and if the police turned up wanting to search our house, my parents would be uncooperative also, even if I'd just done what E/D did. My family would see it as an invasion of their home. My dad would feel like he'd lost his masculine authority over the house.

My own family are the kind of people who derive their sense of pride from being strong. My entire family believe that showing painful emotions in public means that you've lost control over yourself, however, showing anger in public is probably just part of standing up for yourself. I think we were just born that way. I wonder if the Harris family was a bit like this?

I could be wrong too.

That makes a lot of sense, and obviously, it is absolutely possible. But, if you don't mind my asking, after everything had somewhat subsided in such a scenario, do you think your parents would just immediately accept an entirely unofficial (and essentially impossible) post-mortem diagnosis for you as the final and only reason why you had done such a thing, and not even try to delve into the "what ifs" and "maybe we should haves"?

tfsa47090 wrote:

That makes a lot of sense, and obviously, it is absolutely possible. But, if you don't mind my asking, after everything had somewhat subsided in such a scenario, do you think your parents would just immediately accept an entirely unofficial (and essentially impossible) post-mortem diagnosis for you as the final and only reason why you had done such a thing, and not even try to delve into the "what ifs" and "maybe we should haves"?

Yes! I think my family would have accepted the psychopathy diagnosis because it would have hurt their pride too much to imagine that they could have failed in such a big way. My brother took a mood stabilizer as a teenager. He was hanging out with a lot of bad friends at the time, and I'm certain that having him diagnosed with a psychiatric condition helped my parents cope with what my brother was doing. My dad could never admit that he'd failed as head of the house. If I had done a school shooting and my dad had felt it was due to his own failings, I'm certain the shame would have driven him to commit suicide.

Maybe Mr. Harris looks at Kevin's normality and uses this as evidence to support Eric's psychopathy diagnosis.

EDIT: I also think the 90s were a bad time for someone like Eric to grow up in. The 90s were heavy on the conservative Christianity (well, at least that's the way I see them). Christianity was respected (masculine men were the ideal). Kids who played video games were useless sloths, and computer nerds were weak, not praised for their intelligence. Not to mention that bombs, war, and school shootings were cool. Parents were terrified by the new phenomenon of school shootings in the 90s -if you wanted to hurt your community good and proper, attacking your school was the best way to go.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

That makes a lot of sense, and obviously, it is absolutely possible. But, if you don't mind my asking, after everything had somewhat subsided in such a scenario, do you think your parents would just immediately accept an entirely unofficial (and essentially impossible) post-mortem diagnosis for you as the final and only reason why you had done such a thing, and not even try to delve into the "what ifs" and "maybe we should haves"?

Yes! I think my family would have accepted the psychopathy diagnosis because it would have hurt their pride too much to imagine that they could have failed in such a big way. My brother took a mood stabilizer as a teenager. He was hanging out with a lot of bad friends at the time, and I'm certain that having him diagnosed with a psychiatric condition helped my parents cope with what my brother was doing. My dad could never admit that he'd failed as head of the house. If I had done a school shooting and my dad had felt it was due to his own failings, I'm certain the shame would have driven him to commit suicide.

You have an excellent perspective about things. I can entirely see why you so acutely understand the reasons the Harris' might behave as they do, and that you seem to empathize more with them. You know, my parents are actually quite similar, as well. In their minds, there is nothing that they've done that could ever be considered an element in anything I've done that they've disapproved of. For an example (one of the milder ones), I can remember them blaming me; just venomously ranting and chastising me, because my younger sister started swearing, yet, they couldn't seem to comprehend that I had started swearing because it was all I'd heard out of their mouths for as long as I could remember. They also couldn't seem to realize that it was both of them, firstly, and then me, influencing my younger sister. They've humiliated me indescribably by outright lying in an attempt to cover up any of their mistakes. I love them with all of my soul and being, but wow, they are incredibly similar to what you're describing.

It could indeed be genetic, but there's typically the "weirdo" of the family who does not fit in in ANY way, including characteristics such as these that you're describing.

Quote :

You have an excellent perspective about things.

Aw... Thank You  

Quote :

It could indeed be genetic, but there's typically the "weirdo" of the family who does not fit in in ANY way, including characteristics such as these that you're describing.

Are you that "weirdo" in your family? I'm definitely the weirdo in mine. But I still have that sense of indignant pride that my family has. If someone wrongs me, I have a deep need to restore my pride. When I read about how Eric broke his friendship with Brooks after Brooks was late to pick him up for school repeatedly, I sympathize with that. Most people seem to think that this is evidence of Eric's bad temper over trivial things, but I probably would have reacted exactly the same. I probably would have gone there at night and cut Brook's tires. I tend to take every little thing as a sign that people are against me. I wonder if Eric was a bit like this.

And I know this has been brought up before, so I apologize for the repeat, but I also think the media fascination with school shootings in the 90s was probably a bad influence on Eric. I know the media still obsesses over these shootings, but not in the same way they did in the 90s. These days school shootings are almost cliche -every one of them is "just another Columbine". But in the 90s they were the most frightening thing you do.

If Eric had been a teenager today, I'm not sure what kind of attack he would have planned. I'm certain it would be different than what he did in the 90s.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Quote :

You have an excellent perspective about things.

Aw... Thank You  

Quote :

It could indeed be genetic, but there's typically the "weirdo" of the family who does not fit in in ANY way, including characteristics such as these that you're describing.

Are you that "weirdo" in your family? I'm definitely the weirdo in mine. But I still have that sense of indignant pride that my family has. If someone wrongs me, I have a deep need to restore my pride. When I read about how Eric broke his friendship with Brooks after Brooks was late to pick him up for school repeatedly, I sympathize with that. Most people seem to think that this is evidence of Eric's bad temper over trivial things, but I probably would have reacted exactly the same. I probably would have gone there at night and cut Brook's tires. I tend to take every little thing as a sign that people are against me. I wonder if Eric was a bit like this.

And I know this has been brought up before, so I apologize for the repeat, but I also think the media fascination with school shootings in the 90s was probably a bad influence on Eric. I know the media still obsesses over these shootings, but not in the same way they did in the 90s. These days school shootings are almost cliche -every one of them is "just another Columbine". But in the 90s they were the most frightening thing you do.

If Eric had been a teenager today, I'm not sure what kind of attack he would have planned. I'm certain it would be different than what he did in the 90s.

You're very welcome!  

OH, YES INDEED, I am THE weirdo in my family.  Not just my immediate family, either. I have very, very few ties to any of them. I was forced to be around them as a child and younger teen, but after that, I avoided them as often as possible. They are not all demons or anything, but they're a pack of clucking hens (both genders). They can not shut the hell up about anyone. They viciously back stab and criticize everyone, all the time. They go sit with one group and gossip, lie, and make up horrible stories about the others, and then go to another group and do the same thing to the ones they were gossiping with prior. It's like a high school cafeteria. It's nauseating. The extended family is gargantuan, too. It really is a shame that there's so much bad blood.

I don't know that I'd have stopped hanging out with Brooks if I were in Eric's position simply because he didn't pick me up on time. But, if he'd said anything obnoxious when I confronted him about it, or had mocked me about it, I definitely would have cut him off. I still struggle with thinking people are against me. I do have to admit I've gotten much better about this as I've gotten older, BUT, it still exists within me. Primarily at work.

I've been screwed over hard core by many people in all areas of my life, and it's never been as bad at any job as it is where I am now. All of this goes back to being a child, and fearing getting my head kicked in at home if I stood up for myself and got in trouble for it at school. I'd hold it in, and hold it in. Which, as a whole, is against my true nature, but the fear of dealing with my father had I gotten in trouble stopped me. Then, as I entered my later teens, I just verbally exploded on everyone, even when it was unnecessary. So, I realized the ramifications of going from one extreme to the next, and tried to balance it out as best I could with people. As I continued to get older, I started seeing that I couldn't do ANYTHING when it came to certain things at my place(s) of work, or I'd lose my job. So, I started bottling it in again until I couldn't take it anymore, and then when I'd let it flow, I'd hear "why'd you wait so long to say something. We find it hard to believe that these things are actually that bad since you waited so long". So, it was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. And, the nonsense politics at this idiotic place really have me on edge and paranoid. I can't cope with the endless nepotism and disrespect I receive because I don't bow down to said "politics".

I'm sorry for trailing off, but, I also still feel persecuted much more often than I'd like to, even though I've gotten much better with it. And a lot of Eric's reactions to things also resonate with me in different ways.

If Eric was a teen now, and he still had all of the different character components, issues, and outside influences that made him who and how he was during the period that led up to the massacre, I can't even begin to imagine what he'd concoct and hope to achieve.

Yeah, I remember how endlessly focused American media was on school shootings in the 90s. There was definitely an influence there. How large, I'm personally not sure, but it really was so much more shocking back then.

The Harris's perfectly resemble and allude to the Anglo-Saxon "stoicism". Don't show emotion in hard-times.

The Klebold's seem more like regular emotionally open people to me. The type of liberal/hippyish people but not quite hippy. Tom seems rather private, but Sue is all open. I can kind of relate to a having a parent like Sue. She seems like she was always there for Dylan. I would find it hard to believe that Dylan's parents harmed him.

tfsa47090 wrote:

OH, YES INDEED, I am THE weirdo in my family.  Not just my immediate family, either. I have very, very few ties to any of them. I was forced to be around them as a child and younger teen, but after that, I avoided them as often as possible. They are not all demons or anything, but they're a pack of clucking hens (both genders). They can not shut the hell up about anyone. They viciously back stab and criticize everyone, all the time. They go sit with one group and gossip, lie, and make up horrible stories about the others, and then go to another group and do the same thing to the ones they were gossiping with prior. It's like a high school cafeteria. It's nauseating. The extended family is gargantuan, too. It really is a shame that there's so much bad blood.

There's a lot of bad blood in my family too. Extended family all talk to each other, but deep down they want to see each other fail.

Quote :

I don't know that I'd have stopped hanging out with Brooks if I were in Eric's position simply because he didn't pick me up on time. But, if he'd said anything obnoxious when I confronted him about it, or had mocked me about it, I definitely would have cut him off. I still struggle with thinking people are against me. I do have to admit I've gotten much better about this as I've gotten older, BUT, it still exists within me. Primarily at work.

In No Easy Answers, Brooks says that Eric phoned him up and demanded to know why he was late all the time. Brooks says he told him to piss off and find another lift if he didn't like it. After that, Eric wanted him dead. I know it's a trivial thing to want to murder someone and their entire family because of, but I'm certain I would have, at the very least, fucked up Brooks car if it were me. Sometimes I don't think my bad temper has lessened over the years -I think it's gotten worse.

Quote :

I've been screwed over hard core by many people in all areas of my life, and it's never been as bad at any job as it is where I am now. All of this goes back to being a child, and fearing getting my head kicked in at home if I stood up for myself and got in trouble for it at school. I'd hold it in, and hold it in. Which, as a whole, is against my true nature, but the fear of dealing with my father had I gotten in trouble stopped me. Then, as I entered my later teens, I just verbally exploded on everyone, even when it was unnecessary. So, I realized the ramifications of going from one extreme to the next, and tried to balance it out as best I could with people. As I continued to get older, I started seeing that I couldn't do ANYTHING when it came to certain things at my place(s) of work, or I'd lose my job. So, I started bottling it in again until I couldn't take it anymore, and then when I'd let it flow, I'd hear "why'd you wait so long to say something. We find it hard to believe that these things are actually that bad since you waited so long". So, it was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. And, the nonsense politics at this idiotic place really have me on edge and paranoid. I can't cope with the endless nepotism and disrespect I receive because I don't bow down to said "politics".

I've lost jobs because of my bad temper. I'm going to take a risk and be honest here. I often fantasize about going on a rampage. I've got children, so I couldn't do it. But yeah, I'd like to go postal at work.

Quote :

If Eric was a teen now, and he still had all of the different character components, issues, and outside influences that made him who and how he was during the period that led up to the massacre, I can't even begin to imagine what he'd concoct and hope to achieve.

If Eric lived now, he'd have a whole history of school shootings to learn from, what does and doesn't work. Because he wanted to be original though, he might have attacked a mall instead of a school (obviously there's been mall shooters before, but I don't think any teenage ones, and there's a number of ways to get creative with a mall shooting), or maybe he would have gone house to house killing everyone inside just to see how long he could get away with it. Maybe he and Dylan would have hijacked a school bus each and rampaged through town shooting everything that moved and hurling bombs out the windows before crashing them into each other and shooting any survivors of the crash -and uploaded the whole event live on the internet. Eric was creative and I can't come close to imagining what he'd come up with in this day and age. Or maybe he'd have realized that the best way to kill a large amount of people is just with a plain old shooting and he might have become more systematic about doing that.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Maybe Mr. Harris looks at Kevin's normality and uses this as evidence to support Eric's psychopathy diagnosis.

EDIT: I also think the 90s were a bad time for someone like Eric to grow up in. The 90s were heavy on the conservative Christianity (well, at least that's the way I see them). Christianity was respected (masculine men were the ideal). Kids who played video games were useless sloths, and computer nerds were weak, not praised for their intelligence. Not to mention that bombs, war, and school shootings were cool. Parents were terrified by the new phenomenon of school shootings in the 90s -if you wanted to hurt your community good and proper, attacking your school was the best way to go.

I definitely think it's probable that both of Eric's parents view the difference between his and Kevin's overall character and behavior as evidence of his "diagnosis" of "psychopathy". (I've been writing "sociopath" over and over in this thread!   I'm so overtired. Please excuse me!).

The later 90s were very, very dark. I remember it. It was just a dismal, creepy vibe that I can't quite adequately explain in words. (I recall this "starting" around 1996, personally). I also recall everything you've mentioned. That is certainly how I remember much of it.

But I must say, the only actual difference I see these days is a decline in the focus and promotion of Christianity. I know more feminine men are accepted now, and homosexuality isn't as vehemently demonized, mainly in the media. However, the masculine male is still the ideal, in my view, even if his "look" is different. Many men may be more comfortable dressing more femininely, but overall, their mindsets are still chauvinistic and domineering.  (The ones being portrayed in most modern media and pop culture, at least. Unless they're homosexual.). They may wear makeup and crazier, less masculine clothes and hairstyles, but the vibe is still shallow. The smarter video game addicts and computer "geeks" are just able to connect more with others online with the advancement of that technology. Hence, they aren't as isolated as they were before, and are more readily able to share how they look and such. They're still portrayed and viewed by many as lower than the "outgoing", "trendy", "popular and social" sorts, overall (from what I see). But, one other thing: the terror of the school shooter was pretty much brand new then, just as you've said, and without question it did incite a social/moral panic of sorts. Many have been a bit more desensitized to the concept of them at this point.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

OH, YES INDEED, I am THE weirdo in my family.  Not just my immediate family, either. I have very, very few ties to any of them. I was forced to be around them as a child and younger teen, but after that, I avoided them as often as possible. They are not all demons or anything, but they're a pack of clucking hens (both genders). They can not shut the hell up about anyone. They viciously back stab and criticize everyone, all the time. They go sit with one group and gossip, lie, and make up horrible stories about the others, and then go to another group and do the same thing to the ones they were gossiping with prior. It's like a high school cafeteria. It's nauseating. The extended family is gargantuan, too. It really is a shame that there's so much bad blood.

There's a lot of bad blood in my family too. Extended family all talk to each other, but deep down they want to see each other fail.

Quote :

I don't know that I'd have stopped hanging out with Brooks if I were in Eric's position simply because he didn't pick me up on time. But, if he'd said anything obnoxious when I confronted him about it, or had mocked me about it, I definitely would have cut him off. I still struggle with thinking people are against me. I do have to admit I've gotten much better about this as I've gotten older, BUT, it still exists within me. Primarily at work.

In No Easy Answers, Brooks says that Eric phoned him up and demanded to know why he was late all the time. Brooks says he told him to piss off and find another lift if he didn't like it. After that, Eric wanted him dead. I know it's a trivial thing to want to murder someone and their entire family because of, but I'm certain I would have, at the very least, fucked up Brooks car if it were me. Sometimes I don't think my bad temper has lessened over the years -I think it's gotten worse.

Quote :

I've been screwed over hard core by many people in all areas of my life, and it's never been as bad at any job as it is where I am now. All of this goes back to being a child, and fearing getting my head kicked in at home if I stood up for myself and got in trouble for it at school. I'd hold it in, and hold it in. Which, as a whole, is against my true nature, but the fear of dealing with my father had I gotten in trouble stopped me. Then, as I entered my later teens, I just verbally exploded on everyone, even when it was unnecessary. So, I realized the ramifications of going from one extreme to the next, and tried to balance it out as best I could with people. As I continued to get older, I started seeing that I couldn't do ANYTHING when it came to certain things at my place(s) of work, or I'd lose my job. So, I started bottling it in again until I couldn't take it anymore, and then when I'd let it flow, I'd hear "why'd you wait so long to say something. We find it hard to believe that these things are actually that bad since you waited so long". So, it was damned if I did, and damned if I didn't. And, the nonsense politics at this idiotic place really have me on edge and paranoid. I can't cope with the endless nepotism and disrespect I receive because I don't bow down to said "politics".

I've lost jobs because of my bad temper. I'm going to take a risk and be honest here. I often fantasize about going on a rampage. I've got children, so I couldn't do it. But yeah, I'd like to go postal at work.

Quote :

If Eric was a teen now, and he still had all of the different character components, issues, and outside influences that made him who and how he was during the period that led up to the massacre, I can't even begin to imagine what he'd concoct and hope to achieve.

If Eric lived now, he'd have a whole history of school shootings to learn from, what does and doesn't work. Because he wanted to be original though, he might have attacked a mall instead of a school (obviously there's been mall shooters before, but I don't think any teenage ones, and there's a number of ways to get creative with a mall shooting), or maybe he would have gone house to house killing everyone inside just to see how long he could get away with it. Maybe he and Dylan would have hijacked a school bus each and rampaged through town shooting everything that moved and hurling bombs out the windows before crashing them into each other and shooting any survivors of the crash -and uploaded the whole event live on the internet. Eric was creative and I can't come close to imagining what he'd come up with in this day and age. Or maybe he'd have realized that the best way to kill a large amount of people is just with a plain old shooting and he might have become more systematic about doing that.

In my family they LOVE watching each other fail. I sincerely think they're incapable of feeling any sort of happiness for anyone for any reason. There is always a snide air to any sort of compliment or pseudo-congratulatory comment. They'll always say something to make you question anything good that you have going for yourself. (Example: at my Grandmother's funeral two months ago, my aunt and cousin asked how work was, and why I was so tired. I told them I am completing my bachelor's degree while working full time in a stressful environment. They asked how long I'd been in school. I told them four years so far. They completely disregarded the fact that I said I was working toward a bachelor's degree, and went on to say "well, I worked full time and completed two different certificate courses. I managed to do it in two years. It's alright, some people just aren't able to reach their goals as quickly as others". Ugh.......I'm telling you.......)


Sometimes when I hear myself flipping out, I think I've gotten worse, too. But, I know I haven't because I'm not in prison. I have many fantasies about showing these lowlife scumbags a thing or two at work, and other areas of my life. But I wouldn't. They aren't worth losing my freedom. Sometimes this isn't true, but many times it actually is true: when I calm down and attempt to utilize some patience, and just back off, I do see that karma, or whatever it is each of us would like to call it, completely knocks these people on their asses in time. Again, not all the time, but more often than I realized before.

It is incredibly frightening to contemplate what BOTH Eric and Dylan could have come up with in this day and age. And, if they were in the same mindset with the same issues now, they'd be ready to BLOW. If they thought that vapidity, shallowness, and general idiocy was bad then, their heads would spin now. They knew it'd get much worse. I still personally wish they'd stayed alive and done something constructive to try and put a dent in it, without taking innocent lives, and their own.

Eric and Dylan really haven't missed anything. Everything went to shit after the 90's. Movies, Music, etc. Anything worthwhile was released BEFORE the Columbine incident. They probably foresaw how shit it would be in the future, which it is now. I think they'd detest what is here now.

I can totally sympathize with them on this fact.

-eulogy- wrote:

Eric and Dylan really haven't missed anything. Everything went to shit after the 90's. Movies, Music, etc. Anything worthwhile was released BEFORE the Columbine incident. They probably foresaw how shit it would be in the future, which it is now. I think they'd detest what is here now.

I can totally sympathize with them on this fact.

I utterly and entirely agree.

tfsa47090 wrote:

But I must say, the only actual difference I see these days is a decline in the focus and promotion of Christianity. I know more feminine men are accepted now, and homosexuality isn't as vehemently demonized, mainly in the media. However, the masculine male is still the ideal, in my view, even if his "look" is different. Many men may be more comfortable dressing more femininely, but overall, their mindsets are still chauvinistic and domineering.  (The ones being portrayed in most modern media and pop culture, at least. Unless they're homosexual.). They may wear makeup and crazier, less masculine clothes and hairstyles, but the vibe is still shallow.

Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion started a big change in the attitude towards Christianity, I believe. Asian culture became popular in the early 2000s, which may have helped make it more sexy for men to show feminine attributes (so many professional men wear salmon pink shirts these days). Homosexuality definitely got a positive media boost. But you're right, masculine men are still the ideal. I know human beings appreciate power and we all want it, but being a neanderthal isn't the only power there is.

I think that around the time The Matrix was released, computer nerds were starting to be seen as cool and dangerously smart people, before that they were told to "get out in the real world and do something real".

I do think that if E/D were alive now and planning an attack, they'd plan to upload the carnage online -and that other school shooters would follow in their footsteps afterwards (no matter what, E/D were always destined to be the trendsetters).

As for my comment about going postal at work. I hope no one on this board takes that too seriously...

tfsa47090 wrote:

-eulogy- wrote:

Eric and Dylan really haven't missed anything. Everything went to shit after the 90's. Movies, Music, etc. Anything worthwhile was released BEFORE the Columbine incident. They probably foresaw how shit it would be in the future, which it is now. I think they'd detest what is here now.

I can totally sympathize with them on this fact.

I utterly and entirely agree.

I agree also!

I think the 2000s should be dubbed "the decade of useless media". Every second person felt the need to get out their mobile phone camera and record crappy low-res movies of crappy events that no one cares about, like their dog chasing a ball around the yard, and share them with the world. Everyone else who wasn't old enough to own a mobile phone spent their spare time attention whoring in front of the webcam. The older ones spent their free time downloading pirate movies which were far worse quality than VHS ever was in the 90s. DVDs, while superior to VHS, were so fragile to scratches that you only got to watch your "superior" movie twice before it couldn't read the disc anymore. And all those cheap imported electronics from China meant that both your HDD and the external HDD you bought to back it up on would both fail in the first month, usually at the same time.

tfsa47090 wrote:

-eulogy- wrote:

Eric and Dylan really haven't missed anything. Everything went to shit after the 90's. Movies, Music, etc. Anything worthwhile was released BEFORE the Columbine incident. They probably foresaw how shit it would be in the future, which it is now. I think they'd detest what is here now.

I can totally sympathize with them on this fact.

I utterly and entirely agree.

I mostly agree. I think they would absolutely hate majority of today's stuff such as TV, movies, etc. If they didn't like the TV shows in the 90s when it was awesome then they probably wouldn't like it today. But at the same time E/D missed out on so many great things in life such as finally graduating high school, being apart of their brother's weddings, losing their virginity, possibly turning their life around and being successful while seeing the jocks and the other people who tormented them had peeked since high school.

The 2000's have brought a ton of fantastic films and television shows.

[/quote] such as finally graduating high school, being apart of their brother's weddings, losing their virginity.[/quote]

Big whoop. Both of these boys were too smart for their own good and saw how mundane everyday life in when you become an adult, only to rot away and eventually die.

I've really enjoyed reading all the opinions on the matter of Eric and his parents. Very interesting and enlightening. I think that one of the reasons people are harder on Eric and his family even nowadays is because of their reaction to the massacre and because they have kept so quiet about it. Even though I get why they do, it suggests that they have something to hide or that they are less sorry about it. I don't know why it comes off like that, but it does. I think that Dylan and his family receive much more sympathy because Sue and Tom have been more open about it. I really do hope one day that the Harris's tell their side of the story, but, of course, they don't owe the public anything, but maybe it would help either the victims or help parents identify potential warning signs in their own kids.

One thing that I think is really strange though is that as far as I know the Klebolds and Harris's have never spoken to each other about the attack. That seems really weird to me. It seems like they would be able to share each others pain better than anyone else could, but I get the sense that there is a lot of anger between these two families like they both blame the other for their son's involvement. Maybe they have met secretly, but something tells me that they haven't

Lastly, I would agree with those of you who say that Eric and Dylan have not really missed out much since they died. If they had lived, with the way the economy and the world is going, they might be back living with their parents, jobless, and maybe with greater mental health problems depending on if they ever got them addressed properly. There is a tiny part of me that envies them for getting out before things really started going bad with country and the world, but, of course, I certainly don't envy the way they went about it.

-eulogy- wrote:

Big whoop. Both of these boys were too smart for their own good and saw how mundane everyday life in when you become an adult, only to rot away and eventually die.

Perhaps E/D saw that life is fairly similar the whole way through. Everyone dies, so the question isn't: Do I want to die? The question is more like: Do I want to live the space inbetween until I die anyway? If E/D weren't enjoying life, why live that space inbetween?

btvs899705 wrote:

I think that Dylan and his family receive much more sympathy because Sue and Tom have been more open about it.

Dylan wrote about wanting to die and how unhappy he was. Eric wrote about how great it'd be to kill people. I think this also contributes to the greater sympathy the Klebold's receive. I think the public hates Eric much more than Dylan.

It's also fair to note that Eric killed many more people than Dylan.

-eulogy- wrote:

It's also fair to note that Eric killed many more people than Dylan.

Though I do wonder why the public doesn't pay more attention to the accounts that Dylan was the one enjoying himself the most in the library?

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

-eulogy- wrote:

It's also fair to note that Eric killed many more people than Dylan.

Though I do wonder why the public doesn't pay more attention to the accounts that Dylan was the one enjoying himself the most in the library?

Eric also seemed to be having quite the time. "Peekaboo", "sure, I'll help you".

CatherineM813 wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

-eulogy- wrote:

Eric and Dylan really haven't missed anything. Everything went to shit after the 90's. Movies, Music, etc. Anything worthwhile was released BEFORE the Columbine incident. They probably foresaw how shit it would be in the future, which it is now. I think they'd detest what is here now.

I can totally sympathize with them on this fact.

I utterly and entirely agree.

I mostly agree. I think they would absolutely hate majority of today's stuff such as TV, movies, etc. If they didn't like the TV shows in the 90s when it was awesome then they probably wouldn't like it today.

I'm guessing that the only thing they'd like is the new technology. And MAYBE Dylan would like Dubstep. Eric was into Goth/Industrial, and that scene surely isn't around anymore. Both liked Sci-fi and there hasn't really been much of that. I can't see them liking TV now if they hated it then logically speaking. Fuck....sometimes I wish they were alive so I could ask them their opinions on stuff TODAY.

I think this next decade is going to be an interesting one though. I'm noticing a violent trend in music, movies, media. I think ultra-violence is making a comeback. And so are a lot of 90s things.

tfsa47090 wrote:

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

The Harris' also seem to flat out embrace that Eric was a garden variety sociopath and that to this day, they remain perplexed.   I recall that they imparted this generally feeling while meeting with victim's parents.  That to me is like taking the easy way out.  I guess it's easy to shrug it off and say "oh, well, guess my boy was one of those. a sociopath. that explains it in a nutshell."  It absolves them from any sort of responsibility in their son's life or how they may have had the slightest part in shaping his life.  Even if they stated that all the moving around was a mistake.  That would've been honorable and relatable. It would make them seem more human in their struggles.  The Klebold's worked overtime trying to figure out what they did wrong but one can't say that the Harris' closely examined how they may have played a part as parent's of this boy.  Again, I believe a big part of the equation is Mr. Harris and his in-control, emotionally unavailable guarded personality.  The mother seems very 1950s submissive to me, too.  Very gentle, meek, submissive and cries at the drop of a hat when the Brown's confronted her regarding complaints about Eric.  She seems to stand by her man and will stand united and not voice a personal, independent thought or opinion in the slightest.  Her thoughts are unknownable. Sue Klebold is vastly different and more appealing as she has made public attempts to voice her thoughts/feelings.  Anyway, Mr. Harris is/was in charge from the get go.  Got the lawyers in place after 4/20 and we never heard a stitch since.  The silence speaks volumes and alludes that they have something to hide.

Oh my gosh, what an incredible post!!!

I've saved some of my older posts (some not that old)....it's almost scaring me that you've said many of the same things I did before; sort of the same wavelength! I'm glad others feel similarly, and that they're willing to discuss it.

Your intuition about the character of his parents is giving me chills. I have felt the same way about them (the character descriptions you've mentioned in your post) for SO, SO long. I can basically sense it.

Thank you. You make some excellent points in your 'old' posts.  Good stuff!  I think we are essentially sympatico when it comes to the Harris' austere, 'Keep Calm and Carry On' demeanor and that that type of not-so-warm family culture may (operative word here) have affected Eric in his formative years.  

tfsa47090 wrote:

" I feel like he also stopped sharing his feelings because he was often told to stop whining. I don’t know how to fully explain why I feel that, I just do. I think he was once very open, and very emotional, and I think he was shot down by someone at home. I really do. And, every time he tried to find someone he could get close to, he was yanked away from them due to his parents always moving. And, every time he’d cry or complain about how sad that made him, and how much it hurt him,  he’d be told to shut up and act like a man. I know I could be wrong about that, but that’s just what I sense.

If you watch Eric in the videos it's clear that he is projecting and maintaining a machismo, tough demeanor.  He wears it like armor that conceals his insecurity. And you can just see that he's essentially become his father, the military man, at least the outside of him appears silent and unknowable. To cope in the external world, he's 'quit his bitchin' as perhaps he'd done as a small boy and then fell in alignment with his rigid father's wishes.  Do good in school, be on time, be respectful, don't complain.  Buck up.  Inside, I believe you are correct that there is an emotional side of him (and he's denied that so much he no longer acknowledges feelings because they're 'weak') that has been supressed and it longs to be free.  He longs to just say "fuck it!" I don't give a shit about my father's rules anymore and by extension.. societies rules. Society and it's patriarchal, pointless robot-like rules.  I'm going to finally do what I want to do, when I want to, IF I feel like it. I've been denied, my own wishes have been denied, and I'm damn angry.  So, NBK is a way of freeing himself from the tight grip his father molded him into.  It's a way to release the anger and resentment - those primal emotions that were probably denied because he was not to express too much feeling as a male and too openly in his father's "black and white" sort of presence.  Of course, folks, this is all just my speculation, my theory based on how Wayne Harris' personality seems based on his notebook and how he conducted himself before and after 4/20. The other side of the coin is Eric's mother who is, by  contrast to her husband, kindly and quiet and submissive.  Idk, to me she seems docile and passive for a 20th century wife/mother.  I wouldn't know but I'm guessing she is the perfect epitome of wives married to military or mafia men. ;)  She is sympathetic and kind to Eric, and I'm going to speculate and say that she spends her time giving moments of attention to Eric likely not so much in the presence of her husband.  It's was exclusive time between mother and dutiful son.  So, in the Basement Tapes, Eric is especially underscoring how she took care of him, bought him things to make him feel better.   I wonder to what degree she spent talking to him in a fashion where he could express his feelings.  Maybe Eric didn't go into too much detail with his mom because at that point, he'd already learned from his father that men do not wallow in feelings or cry. I believe he made a statement to his mom: "sometimes being a teenager sucks." That might be the extent of his woeful expression and so she then went to the store and bought him snacks that he liked to lift his spirits.  All of which are, essentially, like putting band aids on the pain deep inside. It's not an effective way to suss out the pain deep inside of him.    Eric is then very focused on finding a girlfriend.  He calls them, pages them, hounds them until they pay attention.  When he goes out with potential girlfriends, instead of cultivating a potential enjoyable future with them, he spends time talking about what is bothering him or pissing him off - who at school has hurt or slighted him now.  It's a real turnoff to the girls, I'd bet, but I'm thinking Eric somehow thinks women, because of his mother, will want to listen sympathetically to the pain he is lugging around with him. Women represent some sort of safety in dumping problems.  His father, represents doing things correctly, precisely, being an achiever (like his brother), and being successful to the outside world. Eric seems to have developed obsessive compulsive disorder probably because of wanting to meet his father's idea of success.  Just look at the way Eric compulsively checks his watch in the 'Eric in the commons of CHS' video.'  He's compulsive to be on time to a fault.  His father had programmed him well.  Anyway, this is the type of dysfunctional dynamic I tend to think was laid down for Eric.   Be a man, follow the rules, conceal your feelings - control yourself.  It's no wonder Eric rebelled  His family culture is very traditional 1950s style where men are stoic and women are gentle and meek.  So, to Eric, "they were the best parents. They made mistakes but, still, they were good parents."  Eric protects and backs them and essentially says ' it's not their fault he has all this anger in him.'  It's his fault he's bad and inadequate.  He hates himself so he externalizes that hate.  To me, at least partially, this is why Eric has these hidden ugly feelings. Emotional disconnect and not even knowing where parts of his anger is stemming from.

tfsa47090 wrote:

The constant moving itself completely screwed him up and made him very hesitant to get close to people over time. The cycle of what happened and the reactions he’d receive to his emotions made him just shut down. And, he’d deny these feelings to himself over time, because all he came to know were negative reactions when he’d express them. In time, I think he deeply resented whoever was doing this to him at home, but he couldn’t react to them the way he’d like. I’m not saying his parents didn’t love him, I just think they weren’t tolerant of his true, emotional and sensitive nature. He buried it, and tried to control it, and all that did was make him violently angry."

Agreed. His physical uprooting and displacement as a kid most definitely could have laid the foundation for stunting  his emotional intelligence. His inner wish was to stay where he was, so that he could continue friendships he established which were connected and he cared about those people.  Moving around, not just once or twice, but more than that, being thrust into new schools and environments, caused him to become insecure: to disconnect and gradually become calloused and cynical.   Not all kids have this kind of problem. Some adapt well to change but Eric was one of those that needed to remain growing up longer in one area.  But for Eric as an sensitive individual, establishing close friendships and staying connected was of importance to him.  For whatever military career reason, his parents chose moving as the primary focus rather than considering at least one of their children's wishes. Kevin may have been old enough or less insecure and could deal with the change.  Eric may have felt like he had little say or control over his own life. And like you said, he probably complained but his father was only interested in what career move was best for him, so he probably told Eric to stop with the whining and adapt. When Eric was unable to replicate quality friendships in Littleton, infact, was at the very bottom of the social caste, he  probably felt extremely resentful and cheated out of the happiness that was his past (though he would never think to blame his parents for it).  It's kind of like with Dylan in his journal: the past was a happy time, the best of times but the future will never ever measure up.  So, what's the point?

tfsa47090 wrote:

He was endlessly rejected in every way. Very lonely and isolated. And that is what he himself described himself as being in his intake form when he was seeing a psychologist after the van break in. He admitted he was feeling suicidal, homicidal, lonely, sad, angry, anxious, paranoid, and that he cried constantly. This also had to do with the drugs he was forced to be on, but I strongly believe those emotions existed without drugs. The drugs just made them exponentially worse.

I'll give credit to Eric's father for being diligent and proactive to get his son in therapy after the confrontation with the Browns, however, it almost seems like they handed all the "uglies" about Eric over to the therapist and washed their hands of it.  Sort of a: "Here. My son is problematic. I can't manage him any longer. That's why we'll pay you to shape him up."  Did the parents think that the drugs would conveniently fix Eric's problems without really dealing with anything in a connected family way?  I'm sure the Harris' thought that because their son is in therapy he is getting all the help he needs. Perhaps this is why they expressed being flummoxed about their son doing what he did. It's easier to say 'we don't get it; he must be a psychopath' because they didn't talk about problems with their son in a way that he'd feel safe to do so.  Eric punch holes in walls - but ah, not at home, right?   It's ok to express that rage outside of it.  I also recall when Eric was having that AOL IM with Jen, he mentions how proud of himself he is for writing a letter to his parents about what is bothering him because obviously trying to confront them about it verbally is not working at all.   Again, it's difficult to place the extent of the blame on the parents. They're only human and did the best they could with the tools they had (or didn't have) but I'm simply saying it's easy to see the dynamics of how the parents and the family culture laid down a foundation where their son felt unsafe to express his deep feelings so that he bottled them up and exploded at the age of eighteen.  

tfsa47090 wrote:

I think he did genuinely love his brother, but I do feel he did not feel he could live up to him, and that he was a failure because he didn’t please his father the same way his brother seemed to."

YES. Exactly.  Still, Eric could never resent his brother. Actually, on the Diversion file, he mentions he is closest to his brother.  That says a lot. He also mentions he can talk to his mother more easily (sorry dad).  On some level he must've felt like the inadequate runt of the family and the since he didn't have plans for the future like Kevin likely did, a disappointment to dad.  His emotions must have been mixed about his brother but just like he covered for his parents in the Basement Tapes 'they made mistakes; but they were good parents', Eric is unable to to place blame on his family members.  Externalizing that anger on the umbrella of the stupid fucked up human race or a group like 'the jocks' is much easier because there is no absolutely no emotional connection to any one else. He lost that ability a long time ago.

-eulogy- wrote:

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

-eulogy- wrote:

It's also fair to note that Eric killed many more people than Dylan.

Though I do wonder why the public doesn't pay more attention to the accounts that Dylan was the one enjoying himself the most in the library?

Eric also seemed to be having quite the time.  "Peekaboo", "sure, I'll help you".

Didn't Dylan say "Sure, I'll help you" to Lance Kirklin? Eric used "Quit your bitchin" from Enemy Gold. And what a lame ass B movie that was.. Not even bad in a good way. Babes with (fake) boobs so, of course, it held the attention of horny teenage boys. ;)

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

-eulogy- wrote:

It's also fair to note that Eric killed many more people than Dylan.

Though I do wonder why the public doesn't pay more attention to the accounts that Dylan was the one enjoying himself the most in the library?

Dylan proclaimed he'd go ahead and make the best of NBK with Eric, 'have fun!' because it was his last day on the toilet earth, no? Dylan spent time outside using his double barrel. It was the worst possible choice for killing at a distance. Why'd he use that weapon? Because it was a romantic choice straight out of Desperado. Meanwhile, Eric is leaning against the fence so he can maximize the proficency of his kills. This doesn't make Dylan any better than Eric it simply demonstrates they are using NBK with differing motivations.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

tfsa47090 wrote:

-eulogy- wrote:

Eric and Dylan really haven't missed anything. Everything went to shit after the 90's. Movies, Music, etc. Anything worthwhile was released BEFORE the Columbine incident. They probably foresaw how shit it would be in the future, which it is now. I think they'd detest what is here now.

I can totally sympathize with them on this fact.

I utterly and entirely agree.

I agree also!

I think the 2000s should be dubbed "the decade of useless media".

Hm. I think a lot of stuff from the 90's was ridiculous and looks pretty dated now.  Twin Peaks and Lost Highway?  Ugh. It's so affected and bizarre in style. They're like watching a psychedelic sixties style movie.  Makes no sense whatsoever but oh, so chic in the 90s.  I don't know, maybe it's a generational thing: if you're born late, a decade or two after, the previous  'retro' decades look cooler by comparison. Wonder if E & D liked Xena Warrior Princess. heh.

snegopady wrote:

^ I disagree. I don't think the fact they have remained so private means that they have something to hide. From all accounts that I've read, they seemed to have been loving, supportive parents. Eric was a troubled child, but it doesn't mean it was their fault. People who knew them have always spoken of how nice and well-rounded Kevin was. I personally think Eric just had deep psychological issues. It's unfair to blame the parents.

Essentially, I used the word alluded. So, whether the Harris' did or didn't hide anything, they portrayed themselves as fishy by being isolationists building a mote around themselves. Kevin was first born and may have had more attention as the only child before Eric came along and perhaps stayed in one location longer than Eric. There again, people that knew Eric said he was also nice, respectful and seemingly well-rounded. It's hard to say what the two brothers were really like in the homestead. Perhaps Kevin has some ugly tales to tell that, of course, he'd never divulge as it's a personal, family stuff. In any case, simply because siblings are related, doesn't mean the personalities are going to mirror one another in demeanor. And, of course, unless Eric inherited a genetic mythological psychopathic gene mutation, I prefer (and enjoy) to toss out theories.. connections as to why he would have developed psychological issues and not just simply that he had them and was therefore, a problem child compared to his brother from the get go. Exploring the nurture versus just the nature aspect is fun.   Sure, we don't want to place the blame entirely on the parents but we shouldn't really just tip the scales of blame all on the Harris' youngest son and single him out apart from their family unit. He was a part of that family culture and his deep psychological issues occurred for some particular. Or else he can be written off as Cullen's convenient sociopath. I personally don't buy that because of the strong connection Eric had for animals.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Dylan proclaimed he'd go ahead and make the best of NBK with Eric, 'have fun!' because it was his last day on the toilet earth, no?

Agreed. But he was still able to enjoy NBK, which is what I feel the public is overlooking. Dylan gets more public sympathy because Cullen has portrayed him as a suicidal teen who got led into doing a massacre with his psychopathic friend. But how exactly does a guy get tricked into enjoying a massacre?

Quote :

Dylan spent time outside using his double barrel.  It was the worst possible choice for killing at a distance.

Especially a sawed-off one...

Quote :

Why'd he use that weapon?  Because it was a romantic choice straight out of Desperado.  Meanwhile, Eric is leaning against the fence so he can maximize the proficency of his kills.  This doesn't make Dylan any better than Eric it simply demonstrates they are using NBK with differing motivations.

Eric often gets the psychopath diagnosis because he has no remorse. But I'd like to grab Cullen and say, "Dylan didn't have much either, now did he?"

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Dylan proclaimed he'd go ahead and make the best of NBK with Eric, 'have fun!' because it was his last day on the toilet earth, no?

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Agreed. But he was still able to enjoy NBK, which is what I feel the public is overlooking. Dylan gets more public sympathy because Cullen has portrayed him as a suicidal teen who got led into doing a massacre with his psychopathic friend. But how exactly does a guy get tricked into enjoying a massacre?

I think the public overlooks his apparent enjoyment because his journal seems so contradictory to how he appeared that day.  It's like a switcharoo in personality.
Whereas Eric sounds as unremorseful in his journal as he appears on the day. Therefore, it seems a no brainer to people.  Especially arm chair psychologists like Cullen.

Quote :

Dylan spent time outside using his double barrel.  It was the worst possible choice for killing at a distance.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Especially a sawed-off one...

Haha, yes.  It's that wanting to look cool with characture movie weapons rather than actually using efficient ones to get the best kills.   Eric got jacked up the ass when his sawed off got the best of him while shooting Cassie at close range. Stupid move in his thrill of the moment.   Breaking his nose quite possibly put a damper on NBK.  So, GO sawed off weapons. w00t!

Quote :

Why'd he use that weapon?  Because it was a romantic choice straight out of Desperado.  Meanwhile, Eric is leaning against the fence so he can maximize the proficency of his kills.  This doesn't make Dylan any better than Eric it simply demonstrates they are using NBK with differing motivations.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Eric often gets the psychopath diagnosis because he has no remorse. But I'd like to grab Cullen and say, "Dylan didn't have much either, now did he?"

Cullen just likes it cut and dry.  I think Eric kept supressing his remorse.  Dylan kept mentioning in his journal that he is becoming numb, simply too depressed to care anymore.  In addition, the both of them were brainwashing one another, and reforcing the mantra: do not bond, do not give a shit, etc.   The fact is that on 4/20 they both willingly engaged in kills.  Both are equal in that regard despite the fact that Eric shot for accuracy and Dylan just pointed around randomly and threw a lot of pipe bombs outside.    It's just that Eric was ready and raring to go from the start.  Dylan slowly warmed up to the killer roll once in the library.  After they left that blood orgy, they seem to have lost the desire for anything at all.  Was the shock and remorse slowly kicking in at that point?  We'll just never know.  But instead of sticking around and killing more students hiding in classrooms or waiting to have a full on battle with cops in the building, which they envisioned - they, instead, opted out of the world in less than an hour.   In my opinion, these virgin killers tried it on for size and weren't as NBK as they thought. So, yes, I think the remorse was seeping in. They were exhausted too, I bet. Plus the bombs didn't do the dirty work for them and it was probably all just.. anticlimatic.

Wanted to ask about one of the earliest posts on this thread, stating that when the police first showed up to the Harris's there was a heavy odor of gas and they also found a bomb in Eric's room. Was the bomb active? I'm guessing probably not and was probably one that got left behind that he didn't care about anyone finding, like the gun in plain sight as well. Also, what caused the heavy smell of gas that was coming from the garage? Have never heard or read anything else about these facts.

The bomb was not active. Eric also painted a picture of a bomb on his wall with a fuse leading to a crude drawing of a building called "CHS" and the word "clue" written under it.