Dylan the angel, Eric the MONSTER

Littlelo wrote:

It's weird because when we talk about Judy and Randy it's rarely as Brooks' parents as a couple and more about them as separate people who are connected to Columbine. Judy seems more emotional and wanting to insert herself into the drama, while Randy wants to hold people accountable and set the record straight.

I agree with whoever above said they trust Randy more. Because I do too.

I believe she barged into the police department demanding to see the basement tapes, she got mad at Sue for not reaching out to the families in the way she wanted and she showed up in Sue's damn driveway on 4/20 which I'm pretty sure I was on the subway listening to the audiobook of AMR for the first time and yelled "what the hell Judy" out loud.. probably got some looks.

I trust Randy FAR more than anyone else in that family.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

It's weird because when we talk about Judy and Randy it's rarely as Brooks' parents as a couple and more about them as separate people who are connected to Columbine. Judy seems more emotional and wanting to insert herself into the drama, while Randy wants to hold people accountable and set the record straight.

I agree with whoever above said they trust Randy more. Because I do too.

I believe she barged into the police department demanding to see the basement tapes, she got mad at Sue for not reaching out to the families in the way she wanted and she showed up in Sue's damn driveway on 4/20 which I'm pretty sure I was on the subway listening to the audiobook of AMR for the first time and yelled "what the hell Judy" out loud.. probably got some looks.

I trust Randy FAR more than anyone else in that family.

I do get the vibe that Judy is/was more of the "We told you so" type.

Also-- I know Sue says she and Tom decided against staying with them the night of 4/20 because she wanted to protect the Browns' safety/privacy, but I honestly think part of her just didn't trust Judy all that much to be discreet.

Littlelo wrote:

Also-- I know Sue says she and Tom decided against staying with them the night of 4/20 because she wanted to protect the Browns' safety/privacy, but I honestly think part of her just didn't trust Judy all that much to be discreet.

That may have played a roll as well.

[quote="ShadowedGoddess"]

Littlelo wrote:

Also-- I know Sue says she and Tom decided against staying with them the night of 4/20 because she wanted to protect the Browns' safety/privacy, but I honestly think part of her just didn't trust Judy all that much to be discreet.

That may have played a roll as well. [/quote

I think they fared much better going to their families house than the Browns.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Also-- I know Sue says she and Tom decided against staying with them the night of 4/20 because she wanted to protect the Browns' safety/privacy, but I honestly think part of her just didn't trust Judy all that much to be discreet.

That may have played a roll as well. [/quote

I think they fared much better going to their families house than the Browns.

Agreed. For some reason I keep seeing Judy shoving hand fulls of Eric website printouts in their faces, saying "SEE I KNEW ALL ALONG ERIC WAS EVIL!"

"....but I decided not to tell you about his pipe bombs and death threats until after he killed and injured a bunch of people!"

Ugh. Judy.

Littlelo wrote:

"....but I decided not to tell you about his pipe bombs and death threats until after he killed and injured a bunch of people!"

Ugh. Judy.

Well in Judy's defense, the Browns DID assume that Eric had indeed gotten into trouble over all that.

They just didn't know that the police hadn't followed up on their reports and that Eric an had gotten in trouble because of the van break in instead.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

"....but I decided not to tell you about his pipe bombs and death threats until after he killed and injured a bunch of people!"

Ugh. Judy.

Well in Judy's defense, the Browns DID assume that Eric had indeed gotten into trouble over all that.

They just didn't know that the police hadn't followed up on their reports and that Eric an had gotten in trouble because of the van break in instead.

Did she not know that Dylan also got into trouble?

I can understand that POV but I guess the assumption would be Dylan got into trouble for the Rebel Missions, but why not Zach, he was KiBBz

Brooks says in his book that word went around the school that both Eric and Dylan were in trouble for something big but wouldn't say what it was.

Wouldn't the Browns have wondered why Dylan was also in trouble, since he supposedly ratted out Eric by giving the website?

That's why their story doesn't add up.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I think that as well. Eric got what he considered or thought was a real friend, and Dylan got someone he could count on to not back away from what he wanted to do.

You can make so many different arguments about the boys, which is what makes this case so interesting. There's evidence that Eric was the  driving force and also that Dylan planted the idea into Eric's head.

Did Dylan look at Eric as a best friend? Well he did take up 7 pages of Eric's  yearbook and they did seem to get along in the videos and have fun with one another.

I actually don't think Dylan thought of Eric as his best friend. But we do know that Eric did consider Dylan his best friend. I think that spot was filled by Zach or Nate. Eric was just a friend until NBK came into the picture. Then I think Dylan knew Eric was likely the only one who would go along with or be interested in NBK.  Also that he was in a certain mind set to be capable of something like that.

Your statement "Then again Dylan needed someone like Eric to do a lot of the NBK work, he just wanted to show up." is spot on in my opinion.

Eric was the planner, the list maker, the get things done type. While Dylan lacked the motivation to even go through with his own suicide, much less do all the thinking and planning of NBK. So he let Eric plan and he was riding shotgun.

The stories you hear about Nate sleeping over involved a lot more fun, cooking and watching TV late into the night and stuff. With Eric it was all secretive and stuff.

We do know Eric looked at Dylan as his best friend. I bet Dylan's laid back attitude (though he did say he hated laid back people, but he seemed more chill then Eric) helped Eric vent and sound off, he had someone  he could be himself around.

Even glancing at their to do lists. Eric's was all tactical and Dylan's was "buy pants"

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Eric copied Dylan all the way down to the way he started dressing, to the stickers he put on his car. Eric didn't even like liquor, but he drank it because Dylan did. And I'm pretty sure it was probably the same with the cigarettes.

Eric referred to Dylan as his best friend all of the time and mentioned how he got the exact same decal to put on his car because Dylan had one.

I think Devon had even said somewhere that Eric copied Dylan and that he HATED it! But I can't remember exactly where I came across it though.

I feel like maybe the 11k? Devon did say that Eric copied everything Dylan did.

So basically Eric wanted to be like Dylan and copied everything Dylan did and from what it sounds like - Dylan was kind of a dick to Eric, behind Eric's back and who really didn't even want to hang around Eric but Dylan just tolerated him? I just want to make sure I have this right for my own research and understanding.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Eric copied Dylan all the way down to the way he started dressing, to the stickers he put on his car. Eric didn't even like liquor, but he drank it because Dylan did. And I'm pretty sure it was probably the same with the cigarettes.

Eric referred to Dylan as his best friend all of the time and mentioned how he got the exact same decal to put on his car because Dylan had one.

I think Devon had even said somewhere that Eric copied Dylan and that he HATED it! But I can't remember exactly where I came across it though.

I feel like maybe the 11k? Devon did say that Eric copied everything Dylan did.

I'm not sure if Devon said this later on or whether someone else said it in the 11k but Devon actually told the police that she felt that Dylan was a follower and that Eric was the leader.

I don’t buy Dylan planning, thinking of it first, really doing anything other than going along with it because he wanted to die anyways. I just feel like Eric had way more intent and drive to wipe out everybody. He was the one who put everything together, he was the one who was caught on tape at that gas station in the early morning. I think his own parents also know how much impact he truly had on Columbine which is part of the reason they want to forget about him and stay away from the tragedy.

I just highly doubt Dylan was the one to spark Columbine. His demeanor and mannerisms in all the footage we have suggest to me of somebody who just goes with the flow.

sscc wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Jenn wrote:

Eric copied Dylan all the way down to the way he started dressing, to the stickers he put on his car. Eric didn't even like liquor, but he drank it because Dylan did. And I'm pretty sure it was probably the same with the cigarettes.

Eric referred to Dylan as his best friend all of the time and mentioned how he got the exact same decal to put on his car because Dylan had one.

I think Devon had even said somewhere that Eric copied Dylan and that he HATED it! But I can't remember exactly where I came across it though.

I feel like maybe the 11k? Devon did say that Eric copied everything Dylan did.

I'm not sure if Devon said this later on or whether someone else said it in the 11k but Devon actually told the police that she felt that Dylan was a follower and that Eric was the leader.

Devon said a lot of contradictory things. She said that Eric followed him in dress and style.

Sane One wrote:

I don’t buy Dylan planning, thinking of it first.

Dylan Klebold - Journal Entry - 2-2-98 wrote:

Well well . . . so much changes . . . (like existence). I understand almost everything now . . . so close to my love — . The runes have shown it, she has shown it, I have felt it. I know the meaning of each life: to be loved by your love, & to be happy with ones self. Only for the gods though (me, , etc.). the zombies & their society band together & try to destroy what is superior (what they don’t understand & are afraid of. Soon. . . . either I’ll commit suicide, or I’ll get with  & it will be NBK for us. My happiness. Her happiness. NOTHING else matters. I’ve been caught with most of my crimes — xpl [for example] drinking, smoking & the house vandalism, & the pipe bombs. If, by fate’s choice,  didn’t love me, I’d slit my wrist & blow up Atlanta strapped to my neck. It’s good, understanding a hard road since my realization, but it gets easier. BUT IT DOESN’T! that’s part of existence. Unpredictable. Existence is pure hell & pure heaven at the same time. I will never stop wondering. The lost highway will never end, the music in my head will never stop . . . total [?] part of existence. The hall will never end. The love will always be there. GOD I LOVE HER!!! It’s so great to love.

I do think Eric's involvement took it from fantasy to reality, but this big grandiose way of going out was Dylan's idea.

they both fed off each other, there was no leader nor follower. The CCTV video shows a lot of that. In some instances Eric is following behind Dylan, and at other times Eric is calling out commands to him while sipping on a drink.

remember Dylan mentioned in his journal going on a killing spree with a girl in 97 before Eric was in the plan eric started likely in 98 /99

spidEr wrote:

they both fed off each other, there was no leader nor follower. The CCTV video shows a lot of that. In some instances Eric is following behind Dylan, and at other times Eric is calling out commands to him while sipping on a drink.

I think they fed off each other too. It may not have been 50/50 but a lot of what we speculate about their dynamic comes from secondhand accounts, so how can we say definitively who was calling the shots?

W.A.R. wrote:

Sane One wrote:

I don’t buy Dylan planning, thinking of it first.

Dylan Klebold - Journal Entry - 2-2-98 wrote:

Well well . . . so much changes . . . (like existence). I understand almost everything now . . . so close to my love — . The runes have shown it, she has shown it, I have felt it. I know the meaning of each life: to be loved by your love, & to be happy with ones self. Only for the gods though (me, , etc.). the zombies & their society band together & try to destroy what is superior (what they don’t understand & are afraid of. Soon. . . . either I’ll commit suicide, or I’ll get with  & it will be NBK for us. My happiness. Her happiness. NOTHING else matters. I’ve been caught with most of my crimes — xpl [for example] drinking, smoking & the house vandalism, & the pipe bombs. If, by fate’s choice,  didn’t love me, I’d slit my wrist & blow up Atlanta strapped to my neck. It’s good, understanding a hard road since my realization, but it gets easier. BUT IT DOESN’T! that’s part of existence. Unpredictable. Existence is pure hell & pure heaven at the same time. I will never stop wondering. The lost highway will never end, the music in my head will never stop . . . total [?] part of existence. The hall will never end. The love will always be there. GOD I LOVE HER!!! It’s so great to love.

I do think Eric's involvement took it from fantasy to reality, but this big grandiose way of going out was Dylan's idea.

Agreed. Dylan had this in his head, but never really acted on it other then taking it to Eric. Eric was the one who set it all into motion, which was what Dylan wanted in my opinion.  After Eric became involved Dylan basically sat back and watched his plan come to life fueled by Eric's rage and enthusiasm.

There was no true leader/follower situation. Both knew it was wrong, both went through with it anyway, both are equally to blame in my eyes.

Dylan manipulated Eric in my true honest opinion.

Ivan wrote:

Dylan manipulated Eric in my true honest opinion.

It's clear to me that Dylan was indeed the better manipulator. He had almost everyone fooled. Much like a wolf in sheep's clothing as the old saying goes. Most saw nothing that would have made them think Dylan was capable of such things. A few friends had seen his anger once or twice. But his own parents were clueless, as was the vast majority of people who knew him.

Everyone always says that Eric was the better deceiver, was better at manipulation. I just don't see it. Sure Eric could lie well, and did get away with A LOT of things. But in my opinion his manipulation capabilities were nothing when compared to Dylan's.

I think we tend to label Eric as more manipulative because he bragged about being such a good liar. He talked about tricking girls into his bedroom and which one would be first.

Dylan didn't really talk about things like that, but that doesn't mean he wasn't also manipulating the people in his life. The love letter where he pretty much tells a girl he will kill him self if his feelings aren't reciprocated is a good example of this.

Littlelo wrote:

I think we tend to label Eric as more manipulative because he bragged about being such a good liar. He talked about tricking girls into his bedroom and which one would be first.

Dylan didn't really talk about things like that, but that doesn't mean he wasn't also manipulating the people in his life. The love letter where he pretty much tells a girl he will kill him self if his feelings aren't reciprocated is a good example of this.

It surprises how many people think it's a romantic letter. He's also vaguely confessing to "crimes"

Sue said in an interview "she didn't have any idea who he was"

I wonder if they spoke to the girl or if she's assuming because he tells her "you don't know who I am" or something to that extent.

I bet they would have at least tried to interview her, but would Sue know about it?

The 11k interviews are pretty vague...the report might say "REDACTED name was found on a piece of paper in Klebold residence". It would be hard to tell, even if the name wasn't redacted, what the paper said (if it was a love letter or just a name and number scribbled down). I don't think they went into more detail than that.

Rebbie556 wrote:

remember Dylan  mentioned  in his journal going on a killing spree with a girl in 97 before Eric was in the plan eric started likely in 98 /99

True, but Eric wrote a lot of violent things in his Doom mod files during 1997 about blowing people up and stuff and I believe some of the threatening messages on his site. Dylan's journal started out as something just for himself, but Eric's was written more for the world to see afterwards, so he could have been thinking about it before, even if he didn't write it down.

Eric definitely wrote for an audience. But Dylan had to have known his writing would be read by other people after he was gone...

Littlelo wrote:

Eric definitely wrote for an audience. But Dylan had to have known his writing would be read by other people after he was gone...

I would pay a decent amount of money to know what was on the hard drive that Dylan destroyed.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

Eric definitely wrote for an audience. But Dylan had to have known his writing would be read by other people after he was gone...

I would pay a decent amount of money to know what was on the hard drive that Dylan destroyed.  

Me too.

One can only speculate.

I hate the fact that people like Cullen who shamelessly push this completely incorrect theory are constantly speaking at events and being interviewed by media on the topic like they're a trustworthy professional on Columbine.
It should say something when Dylan's own mother has come to accept his responsibility in the massacre more than Cullen does now.

Skrik wrote:

I hate the fact that people like Cullen who shamelessly push this completely incorrect theory are constantly speaking at events and being interviewed by media on the topic like they're a trustworthy professional on Columbine.
It should say something when Dylan's own mother has come to accept his responsibility in the massacre more than Cullen does now.

She doesn't really accept it though. She basically pushes the same exact stuff that Cullen does - that Dylan was roped into it by Eric. She's never once addressed or admitted that Dylan was talking about doing this with a girl prior to even bringing Eric into it.

She accepted that Dylan killed people and that she didn't really know him, yea, but she doesn't admit that he was just as responsible as Eric. She blames the entire thing on Dylan's mental health, which is ridiculous. Most suicidal people do not commit mass murder. Most depressed and suicidal people don't even hurt other people, they just wanna kill themselves. There's much more to it than just Dylan's depression and mental health.

I wonder what Sue thinks about the "Dylan picks a girl for NBK" theory. I honestly think she rejects it.

Jenn wrote:

Skrik wrote:

I hate the fact that people like Cullen who shamelessly push this completely incorrect theory are constantly speaking at events and being interviewed by media on the topic like they're a trustworthy professional on Columbine.
It should say something when Dylan's own mother has come to accept his responsibility in the massacre more than Cullen does now.

She doesn't really accept it though. She basically pushes the same exact stuff that Cullen does - that Dylan was roped into it by Eric. She's never once addressed or admitted that Dylan was talking about doing this with a girl prior to even bringing Eric into it.

She accepted that Dylan killed people and that she didn't really know him, yea, but she doesn't admit that he was just as responsible as Eric. She blames the entire thing on Dylan's mental health, which is ridiculous. Most suicidal people do not commit mass murder. Most depressed and suicidal people don't even hurt other people, they just wanna kill themselves. There's much more to it than just Dylan's depression and mental health.

Yeah they were both most likely psychopaths or suffered from APD. Not just one or the other.

I do think Dylan was a better liar than Eric.

Littlelo wrote:

I wonder what Sue thinks about the "Dylan picks a girl for NBK" theory. I honestly think she rejects it.

She's only lying to herself if she rejects something that is true and backed up by hard evidence.

What makes Sue more special than the parents of other mass murderers who have no choice but to see the truth?

She's definitely not more special than anyone else. We just talk about her a lot because she has come forward and spoken publicly unlike most other parents of mass shooters. It's easier to speculate things now that we know how she feels about certain aspects of Columbine. I definitely don't think she's perfect and has 100% owned up to her sons actions.

Littlelo wrote:

She's definitely not more special than anyone else. We just talk about her a lot because she has come forward and spoken publicly unlike most other parents of mass shooters. It's easier to speculate things now that we know how she feels about certain aspects of Columbine. I definitely don't think she's perfect and has 100% owned up to her sons actions.

Not being a parent I don't feel like I can judge. I definitely think she sees a lot of the mistakes that she made. However a lot of people don't think Dylan was 100 percent evil, so why would his own mother. If it was all black and white we wouldn't be talking about it 20 years later.

She is also doing a lot more activism than other parents of mass shooters. Plus it seems like Eric and Dylan came from much different homes than others did.

Screamingophelia wrote:

If it was all black and white we wouldn't be talking about it 20 years later.

EXACTLY! Nothing about Columbine has ever been easily agreed upon. Which is why we are at this very moment on a Columbine forum STILL discussing and debating it.

You can't reject influence of destructive people, especially when you are very close to each other. For example in almost all relationship/friendship one is a leader, and according the statement of people who knew them well, Eric was a leader, and everyone noticed how Dylan have changed thru their friendship with Eric, you can't deny influence of Eric on Dylan. Yes, they took something from each other and fed each other with different emotions, but I really can't imagine that Dylan could kill someone by himself, he probably had some angry thoughts and mby even dreamed to kill someone, but it's very far from take a real gun and make a real gun shoots. Eric had serious mental problems, and strange that some part of people want to deny it, it's not just anger, it's something more deeper. I really believe that if they were never met eachother the story went to the different direction, and I do believe that Eric anyway killed someone soon or later. And yes, idea of NBK was Dylan's according his diary, but Eric was the one who made this dream come true, without him Dylan probably just committed suicide, or survived this teenage depression by himself.

All of this thread is mostly just reminding me of one thing about the relationship between Eric and Dylan: I've never once thought of them as having a "bromance."

I don't mean "gay," I mean "they were utterly entwined together" or something. Very little of my interest in Columbine is about what the two liked to do together.

I think they didn't appreciate their friendship as they should be, because only now I understand how is great to have a real close friend, who understand you as you do. Lovers, spouses etc can leave you one day, but truly fried it's like a sun in the sky.

Jea wrote:

You can't reject influence of destructive people, especially when you are very close to each other. For example in almost all relationship/friendship one is a leader, and according the statement of people who knew them well, Eric was a leader, and everyone noticed how Dylan have changed thru their friendship with Eric,  you can't deny influence of Eric on Dylan. Yes, they took something from each other and fed each other with different emotions, but I really can't imagine that Dylan could kill someone by himself, he probably had some angry thoughts and mby even dreamed to kill someone, but it's very far from take a real gun and make a real gun shoots.  Eric had serious mental problems, and strange that some part of people want to deny it, it's not just anger, it's something more deeper. I really believe that if they were never met eachother the story went to the different direction, and I do believe that Eric anyway killed someone soon or later. And yes, idea of NBK was Dylan's according his diary, but Eric was the one who made this dream come true, without him Dylan probably just committed suicide, or survived this teenage depression by himself.

I feel really torn because I do think Eric really brought a lot of the anger out in Dylan and I believe Eric really needed a friend. I feel like looking at the evidence you can argue for both Eric and Dylan being more of the leader/follower. I think they played off of each other and if they never met, we may never have heard of either of them. Unless Dylan did kill himself and Sue became an advocate for brain health like she is now. Or Eric did something on his own.