13 victims or 15 victims?

Jenn wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

I remember MnM as being someone who was extremely anti-bully and would bring up his years of being bullied all the time.  You shouldn't judge him so harshly.  Right?

He is only "anti-bully" when he is talking about how HE was bullied in junior high school 30 years ago. He isn't "anti-bully" when he is the one bullying.

I see. That's kind of disappointing. I disagree with him many times but he was always cordial.

I only said that the person who sent the message didn't do it to harass , but they did it out of a sense of outrage.That was the point I was making and it is the truth because the person said it their selves.This person was outraged over the family's actions and sent the message to express that outrage.It wasn't harassment done out of being a fan or because they were a fan.In retrospect, it wasn't a good idea.I was only stating the person's stated motivations unlike some of the people on the Mauser's page who I guess at least at times were harassing. I simply stated why the girl whose brother died is so bitter.I don't know that anyone who found their 16 year brother dead from a shotgun wound because of bullying and nothing was ever done about it has gotten a pass on anything.

sergeant hartman wrote:

Jenn wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

I remember MnM as being someone who was extremely anti-bully and would bring up his years of being bullied all the time.  You shouldn't judge him so harshly.  Right?

He is only "anti-bully" when he is talking about how HE was bullied in junior high school 30 years ago. He isn't "anti-bully" when he is the one bullying.

I see.  That's kind of disappointing.  I disagree with him many times but he was always cordial.

His true colors didn't show until after Mad_Hatter got banned from SBB and MnM made a thread practically begging for Hatter (the member who told MnM to kill himself) to be allowed back. When MnM didn't get his way he made this thread attacking the Admin of SBB who then went and banned him. After he was banned, he went and harassed her even more through Facebook and contacting the forum. I am convinced that he was the reason SBB was closed down.

Then, afterwards, he signed up here and told me on several of occasions that he was going to use my forum to bully the Admin of SBB into opening it back up. He told me that if people from SBB reported my forum because of what he was doing that I could always just "open a new one". He was warned here many times for calling people on SBB names and posting their real names and making thread after thread directed towards them. Finally I had enough of him breaking the rules (after he posted a private conversation he had with Adorkable on Facebook that had many people's real names in it) and banned him. After I banned him, he continued to harass me with Abuse Complaints and his friend, Ms Dollhouse Pink, who he opened up "Oddly Interested" with signed up here to tell me to "Dylan Klebold" myself. He then sent out a mass PM on this forum calling Ivan and I "crazy", saying I was just like the Admin of SBB and said they should all leave my forum and go to his all because I banned him for breaking the rules a dozen times. Does that sound like someone who is "anti-bully" to you?

That still constitutes cyberbullying and a personal attack on her family, and is by no means justifiable or productive. I'd be surprised if it was the first time she's gotten a hate letter like that though. Like I said, I've seen that person's tumblr before, and they had made it obvious that their judgment was clouded by their devotion to Eric and Dylan and in the message they even pretended to care about Cassie's memory. That particular person was no different than the people who attacked Tom on his tribute video to Daniel.

And I wish that girl didn't feel the need to disrespect the victims. I hope she comes around and stays strong for her brother- I hope he gets justice. If particular people in fact F'ed with him, they should be punished.

That was for PaintItBlack. Gah it's hard to find the edit button on mobile lol.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

That was for PaintItBlack. Gah it's hard to find the edit button on mobile lol.

Yes, it would be a little bit easier to figure out who you are talking to if you quote that person.

gutenfxckintag wrote:

That still constitutes cyberbullying and a personal attack on her family, and is by no means justifiable or productive. I'd be surprised if it was the first time she's gotten a hate letter like that though. Like I said, I've seen that person's tumblr before, and they had made it obvious that their judgment was clouded by their devotion to Eric and Dylan and in the message they even pretended to care about Cassie's memory. That particular person was no different than the people who attacked Tom on his tribute video to Daniel.

And I wish that girl didn't feel the need to disrespect the victims. I hope she comes around and stays strong for her brother- I hope he gets justice. If particular people in fact F'ed with him, they should be punished.

I didn't say it was the right thing to do.I only stated what the motivation was.I do see a difference in harassing someone just to be an__________ and harassing them because you feel genuinely upset about something, but I agree it shouldn't be done.The H &K families got a lot of hate mail for sometime after the shooting and I thought that was terrible and wrong to do too. Same thing.

PaintItBlack wrote:

gutenfxckintag wrote:

That still constitutes cyberbullying and a personal attack on her family, and is by no means justifiable or productive. I'd be surprised if it was the first time she's gotten a hate letter like that though. Like I said, I've seen that person's tumblr before, and they had made it obvious that their judgment was clouded by their devotion to Eric and Dylan and in the message they even pretended to care about Cassie's memory. That particular person was no different than the people who attacked Tom on his tribute video to Daniel.

And I wish that girl didn't feel the need to disrespect the victims. I hope she comes around and stays strong for her brother- I hope he gets justice. If particular people in fact F'ed with him, they should be punished.

I didn't say it was the right thing to do.I only stated what the motivation was.I do see a difference in harassing someone just to be an__________ and harassing them because you feel genuinely  upset about something, but I agree it shouldn't be done.The H &K families got a lot of hate mail for sometime after the shooting and I thought that was terrible and wrong to do too. Same thing.

If they were only genuinely upset about it though, they would have communicated that differently, instead of personally attacking them with 'your family is full of f**ked up people' and 'you are no better than murderers'.

I think they were sincerely upset.But there is often a kinder, gentler,better way to put things.People often ignore that because they get angry and pop things off out of that anger.

Like Brian chopping up the crosses.

I was glad to hear that some families who did these things and said these things and seemed to hate the H & K family's have softened a little bit in their stances towards them and maybe even have some sympathy towards them now.Brian had nothing good to say as late as 2009 so I was surprised and very pleased to hear that he had expressed some sympathy for their loss.I hope that eventually some of the other family's that still feel that way will come to understand and have some sympathy for their loss too.

In the end, everyone that day was a victim, the people who died are a victim, the survivors with psychological trauma are a victim and after all, Eric and Dylan too and they were the first ones. So in total, there are not 13 or 15 victims, "Teenagers are cruel and can make others feel little and insignificant." like someone said. The whole population of the school was a victim that day, including the killers that were part of the institution too.

Regarding the fans, Ive always said that they feel identified with Eric and Dylan, they can see their lives or the life of someone close to them in the lives of the boys. Many of them, have or had suicide thoughts and are or were depress (I could see it in the tumblr of many of them). They can also see in Daniel Mauser or Rachel Scott, the people of their school that bully them or reject them or the people that had a life that they wish, so a way to offend them is like defend themselves, but of couse that there is a lot of immaturity and they cross the line. I understand them but they do things that are really disgusting and disrespectful sometimes and if they are angry, they must take that hate and anger to another place or taking it out in something helpful.

Mj2beat wrote:

In the end, everyone that day was a victim, the people who died are a victim, the survivors with psychological trauma are a victim and after all, Eric and Dylan too and they were the first ones. So in total, there are not 13 or 15 victims.

I agree that we can't count an exact number of victims because Columbine affected so many people's lives.

I guess I am kinda late to post on this thread but anyway ...

I think that of the 15 dead all 15 were victims, except 2 were victims of a different crime.

There were 15 people who lost their lives that day and I think its teh best way to phrase it.

Eric and Dylan victims? Not really. Perpetrators first and foremost, but we do need to recognize taht tehy also died, that their parents also lost their kids. That the brothers losta  sibling and that they too were CHS students who died on 4/20.

They should nto be equated with teh 13 victims, but they should not be erased out of the picture.

In my opinion, there were more than 15 victims.
Everyone who died there - were victims. I feel for them.
13 people were victims of Eric and Dylan, while Eric and Dylan were victims of their own anger and desperation. They were not innocent, but they were victims.
(I wonder if it is just me, but I think everyone who commits suicide can be considered as a victim. A victim of hopelessness, despair or something like this.)
There were 21 (or 24?) people who injured, many of them became paralyzed for the rest of their lives. They are victims too. Their environments surely experience difficulties.
Those who were lucky enough to survive without injuries are victims too. It is not only some nonsense psycho-blabla: posttrauma and complex posttrauma is difficult to handle.

But the relatives, friends, classmates, colleagues who probably still mourn the deceased - are victims too!

I really don't want to be rude or hurt anyone's feelings, but calling yourself a "fan" of E/D is definitely crossing a line. There's nothing wrong with sympathizing for them or understanding their mindsets. I'd go so far as to argue that Columbine has become a kind of coping mechanism for those of us who suffered through bullying during our own stints in highschool. Hell I don't even see anything wrong with teenage girls having crushes on them. They boys were human beings after all with emotions and feelings like the rest of us.

All that said there is a HUGE difference between being a sympathizer and being a "fan". People are fans of sports players because they inspire them to push their own limits. People are fans of artists and musicians because their work speaks to them. Being a fan of E/D implies that you're okay (or even support) the murders of 13 innocent human beings. It doesn't matter how much you personally were bullied in your own life. There isn't a shred of evidence that a single person killed that day ever so much as spoke Ill of E/D. No matter how hard you try the attack can't be justified.

Do you guys think it's easier for some people or if possible some parents to forgive Eric and Dylan and regard them as victims too because of the fact that the kids they shot and ended up killed were not targeted individually or prior to 4/20? Meaning some would find it easier to grasp and move on by telling themselves, well, Eric and Dylan were victims too before Columbine, they were troubled kids who needed help and acceptance, the school treated them badly etc etc, and my child got killed because they happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, and fell tragic at the hands of two kids who were troubled too. The kids who got killed were collateral damage of a bigger issue which is what was going on in E&D's minds. Do you think this is one way we may see and regard the boys as victims?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: yes, understanding or having sympathy towards Eric and Dylan is definitely not the same as having a fandom. I have heard that certain girls find the "bad boys" exciting in general. Maybe this has something to do with this fandom?
Great that you see the difference between understanding and "fangirl" attitude.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: this can be true, thinking about Eric and Dylan as former victims increases empathy and might lead to some kind of forgiveness.
But I think that moving on is not easy - might be impossible - if a parent loses a daughter or a son. The loss is something irreplaceable. This is why I assume that forgiving the shooters might give some ease, but dealing with the loss of one's own child is always very difficult.

Do you mean: at least the killing was not so calculated, like killing everyone whom they disliked or whom they had had problems with in the past?

Yes. An extended damage. Eric and Dylan had such an enormous rage inside that it was not only them who fell as victims. I still think they had been victims for a long time, and turned into perpetrators.

Moonshadow wrote:

Do you mean: at least the killing was not so calculated, like killing everyone whom they disliked or whom they had had problems with in the past?

Yes. An extended damage. Eric and Dylan had such an enormous rage inside that it was not only them who fell as victims. I still think they had been victims for a long time, and turned into perpetrators.

Yeah, something like that. Meaning like a parent of a victim is able to forgive them somehow because despite the fact that they took their child's life away, they try to tell themselves that my child wasn't specifically targeted to get murdered, my child just happened to be there, and their death is the result of the boys issues, which they choose to handle by homicide and suicide.

Thirteen victims.

I believe in a lot of ways Dylan and Eric are sympathetic and are even victims from certain points of view. But I lose a lot of that sympathy for them whenever I read through what they did in the library (including the taunting and mocking of the dying) and then the (admittedly it would never would have went worked) plans of bombing the school.

It was completely justified to cut down the crosses dedicated to them at the memorial. They are murderers. Murderers should never be honored with their victims. It's terrible behavior that causes more pain to the families.

15 deaths but 13 victims. But I believe Eric and Dylan were victims too. Victims of their own hate and sadness.

I do empathize with Eric and Dylan for several reasons, however, I do not consider them to be victims.  They may have been victims of bullying before the massacre, but the day they decided to kill innocent people they became perpetrators.

pisada wrote:

Thirteen victims.

I believe in a lot of ways Dylan and Eric are sympathetic and are even victims from certain points of view. But I lose a lot of that sympathy for them whenever I read through what they did in the library (including the taunting and mocking of the dying) and then the (admittedly it would never would have went worked) plans of bombing the school.

It was completely justified to cut down the crosses dedicated to them at the memorial. They are murderers. Murderers should never be honored with their victims. It's terrible behavior that causes more pain to the families.

Putting up the crosses wasn't terrible behavior.Greg Zanis put the crosses up out of true Christian love, and compassion.As a Christian, that is exactly what he should have done.If he hadn't put them up, he wouldn't have been acting with a true Christian spirit.
It's worth noting that while some of the other victim's families might not have liked the crosses being there it was only Dan Rohrbough's family that took them down, although they and the Velasquez chopped down 2 of the 15 trees planted by Cassie Bernall's church 6 months later.

Fifteen.