Virginia Tech vs. Aztec High

Seung hui Cho and William Atchison both used the same gun (glock 19) They both had multille magazines and were both determined to kill alot of people. Yet Cho shot 49 people and Atchison shot only two.

What made Cho succeed in killing alot of people and Atchison fail? I think getting to the bottom of this will help stop future school shootings. If we can learn what made Atchison fail when he had the means and the mindset to do as much damage as Cho, we can learn how to replicate those circumstances and stop more people from dying in the future.

What went right for Cho and wrong for Atchison? Thoughts?

Atchison was apparently found in the bathroom, disrupting his plan and possibly panicking him. If his plan went right, he likely would've killed a lot more. I can't verify how accurate the part about him being found in the bathroom is though because I don't have the CCTV, just relying on what people have said. (they approved it, but I gotta pay $40 for it, and I'm struggling to find a method of payment due to different countries and different currencies)

PrettyCoolGuy wrote:

I wonder if there was CCTV footage about the VT shooting at all. It's surprising how they never released anything; no crime scene photos, no guns on crime scene, no dead Cho or at least Cho's clothes, no 911 calls... only that video some paki recorded

There is actually a photo of Cho's autopsy that I found, at least I'm pretty sure it's him.

PrettyCoolGuy wrote:

I wonder if there was CCTV footage about the VT shooting at all. It's surprising how they never released anything; no crime scene photos, no guns on crime scene, no dead Cho or at least Cho's clothes, no 911 calls... only that video some paki recorded

There are a few pics from V-tech, I posted them in a thread here a while ago, I think it was a thread about graphic details from V-tech although the mods may have removed it as of recent. I don't think Norris Hall was equipped with CCTV cameras at the time of the shooting so I don't think there even is any footage of it out there other than the CSI/police footage of the crime scene (which will never be released). Virginia in general is somewhat stingy when it comes to releasing info on serious crimes, I was going to send an FOIA request for stuff related to the shooting but read in the V-tech official report that it's up to the police to decide if they want to obey an FOIA request from people outside of next of kin (which means they almost always say no unless you have an extremely legit reason to need it).

DanielGardner wrote:

Seung hui Cho and William Atchison both used the same gun (glock 19) They both had multille magazines and were both determined to kill alot of people. Yet Cho shot 49 people and Atchison shot only two.

What made Cho succeed in killing alot of people and Atchison fail? I think getting to the bottom of this will help stop future school shootings. If we can learn what made Atchison fail when he had the means and the mindset to do as much damage as Cho, we can learn how to replicate those circumstances and stop more people from dying in the future.

What went right for Cho and wrong for Atchison? Thoughts?

Them both having the same gun wasn't a huge factor imo, the Glock 19 is the most popular or one of the most popular handguns in the world and the US and has been used in dozens of shootings with the number of killed/injured varying widely. Although they were both determined to kill I think Cho was more determined given that Atchison killed himself after not being able to get into one classroom vs. Cho who only killed himself once he heard police had actually entered the building. Cho also got the jump on people as well given that the first people he killed were in a classroom (first shots he fired were in a classroom of 13 of which he killed 9, since they didn't even have a chance to react). Atchinson on the other hand killed people in the bathroom first which gave others time to barricade themselves and take cover. Moreover, since V-tech happened in 2007 people were probably less quick to immediately jump to the conclusion that the sounds they were hearing were a shooting (and consequently able to take appropriate actions) since school shootings were less frequent then (at the time the only famous one that the average person would be aware of was Columbine and that wasn't even at a university). This is also compounded by the fact that the Norris Hall area was undergoing construction at the time so people were slower to react at first because they mistook the shots for construction work. In Atchinson's case, people were more aware of school shootings so they were quicker to recognize and react to the sound of gunfire and therefore hide or get away (and therefore lower the amount of harm done). The area of Norris Hall where the shooting took place is also very close quarters in terms of the classroom layout so Cho was able to get to several classrooms quickly without having to travel more than a couple dozen feet or so. There was also less furniture in the Norris Hall rooms so barricading was less effective there than it was at Aztec (in the Aztec shooting the object barricading the door of the classroom Will failed to get into was a couch vs. Vtech were people could only barricade the doors with their bodies or the student desks, both of which are not good barricade materials).

Iirc Cho also trained more than Atchinson did too (although Cho was no marksman) so he had an edge over him in that sense. Also, Cho had already killed two people earlier so he was used to killing by then and therefore was probably over the shock of killing someone for the first time, unlike Atichison (which imo can slow someone down or mess up their "groove" since it's a huge 'mindfuck' step to go from planning a shooting and gathering all the materials to actually pulling the trigger and killing someone).

Which gun was used - it`s nothing. You can with double-barrel killed more people then with AR-15 for example, because AR-15 can easily jammed, but with double-barrel it`s very rare happens.

Main reason - because it`s real life, not computer games. Many shooters can killed more people if they wanted (Robert Steinhäuser, David Sonboly), but don`t doing that. William was more suicidal, than Cho. It`s all. Because if someone lock door, but don`t barricaded - with 9mm you can break lock with several shots.

Carnifex879 wrote:

PrettyCoolGuy wrote:

I wonder if there was CCTV footage about the VT shooting at all. It's surprising how they never released anything; no crime scene photos, no guns on crime scene, no dead Cho or at least Cho's clothes, no 911 calls... only that video some paki recorded

There is actually a photo of Cho's autopsy that I found, at least I'm pretty sure it's him.

Here's the link to Cho's autopsy pictures that were released in a powerpoint presentation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

exceptionella wrote:

Carnifex879 wrote:

PrettyCoolGuy wrote:

I wonder if there was CCTV footage about the VT shooting at all. It's surprising how they never released anything; no crime scene photos, no guns on crime scene, no dead Cho or at least Cho's clothes, no 911 calls... only that video some paki recorded

There is actually a photo of Cho's autopsy that I found, at least I'm pretty sure it's him.

Here's the link to Cho's autopsy pictures that were released in a powerpoint presentation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Isn't posting NSFW pics regarding suicide, by other means aside from PM's, illegal on this board?

Unfortunately, it all went wrong for William Atchison, and that is sad because you only get one chance at a mass shooting.

Well, William Atchisons plans were thwarted by a couch.

Had Cho came up against such an opponent, i have full confidence that he too would've thrown in the towel.

MysterionSZAF wrote:

exceptionella wrote:

Carnifex879 wrote:

PrettyCoolGuy wrote:

I wonder if there was CCTV footage about the VT shooting at all. It's surprising how they never released anything; no crime scene photos, no guns on crime scene, no dead Cho or at least Cho's clothes, no 911 calls... only that video some paki recorded

There is actually a photo of Cho's autopsy that I found, at least I'm pretty sure it's him.

Here's the link to Cho's autopsy pictures that were released in a powerpoint presentation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Isn't posting NSFW pics regarding suicide, by other means aside from PM's, illegal on this board?

Well it's the link to the picture, not the actual picture itself being posted in the thread. I wasn't really sure though whether it was allowed or not, I can always remove it if it's against the rules

exceptionella wrote:

MysterionSZAF wrote:

exceptionella wrote:

Carnifex879 wrote:

PrettyCoolGuy wrote:

I wonder if there was CCTV footage about the VT shooting at all. It's surprising how they never released anything; no crime scene photos, no guns on crime scene, no dead Cho or at least Cho's clothes, no 911 calls... only that video some paki recorded

There is actually a photo of Cho's autopsy that I found, at least I'm pretty sure it's him.

Here's the link to Cho's autopsy pictures that were released in a powerpoint presentation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Isn't posting NSFW pics regarding suicide, by other means aside from PM's, illegal on this board?

Well it's the link to the picture, not the actual picture itself being posted in the thread. I wasn't really sure though whether it was allowed or not, I can always remove it if it's against the rules

I'm pretty sure it's only the Columbine suicide photos that aren't allowed. Jenn said to mark a picture with a graphic warning if it's a different death photo. Since it's just the link, I don't think it's a problem.

Carnifex879 wrote:

exceptionella wrote:

MysterionSZAF wrote:

exceptionella wrote:

Carnifex879 wrote:

PrettyCoolGuy wrote:

I wonder if there was CCTV footage about the VT shooting at all. It's surprising how they never released anything; no crime scene photos, no guns on crime scene, no dead Cho or at least Cho's clothes, no 911 calls... only that video some paki recorded

There is actually a photo of Cho's autopsy that I found, at least I'm pretty sure it's him.

Here's the link to Cho's autopsy pictures that were released in a powerpoint presentation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Isn't posting NSFW pics regarding suicide, by other means aside from PM's, illegal on this board?

Well it's the link to the picture, not the actual picture itself being posted in the thread. I wasn't really sure though whether it was allowed or not, I can always remove it if it's against the rules

I'm pretty sure it's only the Columbine suicide photos that aren't allowed. Jenn said to mark a picture with a graphic warning if it's a different death photo. Since it's just the link, I don't think it's a problem.

If that's true, someone should bring back the dead body of mass shooters thread.

AmericaMan wrote:

Carnifex879 wrote:

exceptionella wrote:

MysterionSZAF wrote:

exceptionella wrote:

Carnifex879 wrote:

PrettyCoolGuy wrote:

I wonder if there was CCTV footage about the VT shooting at all. It's surprising how they never released anything; no crime scene photos, no guns on crime scene, no dead Cho or at least Cho's clothes, no 911 calls... only that video some paki recorded

There is actually a photo of Cho's autopsy that I found, at least I'm pretty sure it's him.

Here's the link to Cho's autopsy pictures that were released in a powerpoint presentation [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Isn't posting NSFW pics regarding suicide, by other means aside from PM's, illegal on this board?

Well it's the link to the picture, not the actual picture itself being posted in the thread. I wasn't really sure though whether it was allowed or not, I can always remove it if it's against the rules

I'm pretty sure it's only the Columbine suicide photos that aren't allowed. Jenn said to mark a picture with a graphic warning if it's a different death photo. Since it's just the link, I don't think it's a problem.

If that's true, someone should bring back the dead body of mass shooters thread.

Update: I read in another thread that Jenn doesn’t allow them anymore.

(Deleted)

Atchison was prevented from killing anyone else because the classroom nearest to him had been barricaded with a couch and then he got angry about that and shot himself, iirc.

Cho gave it everything he had and was determined he could pull it off, he was ultimately determined, he prepared for what he knew was going to do with grievance, he trained tactical shooting drills, probed responses to bomb threats and chaining doors beforehand. Also it is said he began working out leading up to the event, presumably to gain physical strength, something that may have aided him pushing his way through held doors unlike bill.

William Atchison on the other hand was a lost and non matured kid, I don't believe he had the motive nor conviction to commit to what he expected, his initials shots compromised him, following this a couch would stunt him leading him to hesitate, retreat and kill himself. I knew Vance stone for a short time and it's unfortunate what happened to him, he was like a kid, he couldn't anticipate when it came to it, he did not have the gut, will to effectively commit and I see what he did as more of exclusively a way out from his depraved life in a way at least familiar to him. He was raped as a kid and grew up in a delinquent environment, he was entirely lost with no direction and would wander into something he could not take the gravity of with his state of mind and would sadly lead him to ending his life as he did.

Blaze88 wrote:

William Atchison on the other hand was a lost and non matured kid, I don't believe he had the motive nor conviction to commit to what he expected, his initials shots compromised him, following this a couch would stunt him leading him to hesitate, retreat and kill himself.

Exactly this, while Cho was actually committed to becoming a successful mass murderer, Atchinson was a dime a dozen delinquent who saw a school shooting as an alternative form of suicide.

Both Seung Hui Cho and William Atchison experienced childhood bullying, but more details were released about Cho's high school experiences and bullying than William's. I only read that he was "bullied" because an article that interviewed his high school friend said that some kids "teased" him, which I'm not surprised by. Most school shooters aren't as socially accepted as the majority of students.

Blaze88 wrote:

William Atchison on the other hand was a lost and non matured kid, I don't believe he had the motive nor conviction to commit to what he expected, his initials shots compromised him, following this a couch would stunt him leading him to hesitate, retreat and kill himself.

Atchison seemed primarily suicidal rather than homicidal and only joked about committing a school shooting. He probably just saw shooting up a school as a fun or cool thing to do whereas Cho saw it as his mission in life to become a school shooter.