Harris and Klebold Ancestries In Depth

*This doesn't break any rules and it certainly doesn't intrude on anybodies privacy since everyone listed has been dead for either a very long time or just recently.*
Does anybody have any information as to their ancestries? Dylan, in particularly is quite an interesting mix of things.

It's very interesting to note that Dylan never met any of his grandparents on his mothers side for an extended period of time other than his mother's mom who died in 1987 when he was only 6.

Also, had Eric lived he would've still had his grandparents almost 20 years after the event
Eric, from the sounds of it has pretty unremarkable ancestry. His parents were Presbyterian which hints at Scottish ancestry:

Dylan Klebold is 25% Ashkenazi Jewish and possibly 25% German on father's side?

Sue Klebold (Yassenoff) - 50% Ashkenazi Jewish, other Unknown
Father - Milton Rice Yassenoff (Yassinov) 6 Nov 1919 Birth Place: Toledo, Lucas County, Ohio, United States of America Death Date: 13 May 1967
Mother - Charlotte Huelsman - ancestry unknown 31 Oct 1921 Birth Place: Croton, Licking County, Ohio, United States of America Death Date: 1987

Thomas Klebold - 1/2 German and something else
Great Grandfather - Wilhelm Klebold was born in 1844 in Alsace-Lorraine
Father - William Henry Klebold (born 1895 in Pearl, Texas, died 1959 in Toledo, Ohio)
Mother - Lillian Grace Rae Klebold (1908-1953)

Eric Harris is 100% British Isles (England or Scotland) most likely. Possibly Ireland.

Wayne Nelson Harris - I can only guess 100% English
Father - Walter Harris - Birthdate: 1907 Death: 1969 (61-62)
Mother - Thelma Juanita Mann (Parks)- Birthdate: June 08, 1919 Birthplace: Oklahoma, United States Death: January 25, 2004 (84) Denver, Denver County, Colorado, United States

Katherine Ann Poole/Pool - English?
Father - Richard Pool was born in 1922 and passed away in 2015 at the age of 93.
Mother - Elaine Pool was born in 1924


If anybody else wants to add any other interesting finds feel free to comment. There are so many interesting finds on here I just thought I might contribute.

Rancid43 wrote:

If anybody else wants to add any other interesting finds feel free to comment. There are so many interesting finds on here I just thought I might contribute.

Eric Harris's paternal ancestry, as far as I can tell is English and Irish; his maternal ancestry is English, Swedish, and German.

jada887 wrote:

Rancid43 wrote:

If anybody else wants to add any other interesting finds feel free to comment. There are so many interesting finds on here I just thought I might contribute.

Eric Harris's paternal ancestry, as far as I can tell is English and Irish; his maternal ancestry is English, Swedish, and German.

Do you have any sources for this?

Pool/Poole and Harris are all names of English (Anglo-Saxon) Origin. There's nothing about him being Swedish, German, or Irish. His parents were wedded at a Presbyterian Church which hints at Scottish ancestry.

Quote :

Do you have any sources for this?

Pool/Poole and Harris are all names of English (Anglo-Saxon) Origin. There's nothing about him being Swedish, German, or Irish. His parents were wedded at a Presbyterian Church which hints at Scottish ancestry.

I have an account on ancestry.com, so on my spare time, I researched Eric's maternal and paternal ancestry. Eric's maternal great-grandparents were Myron Pool and Alma (nee Erickson). Alma was born to Swedish parents. Myron's parents surnames were Pool and Kesling (Kesling is a German surname). Wayne's maternal great-grandmother had the surname of Mullens (this is an Gaelic surname of possible Irish origins).

jada887 wrote:

Quote :

Do you have any sources for this?

Pool/Poole and Harris are all names of English (Anglo-Saxon) Origin. There's nothing about him being Swedish, German, or Irish. His parents were wedded at a Presbyterian Church which hints at Scottish ancestry.

I have an account on ancestry.com, so on my spare time, I researched Eric's maternal and paternal ancestry. Eric's maternal great-grandparents were Myron Pool and Alma (nee Erickson). Alma was born to Swedish parents. Myron's parents surnames were Pool and Kesling (Kesling is a German surname). Wayne's maternal great-grandmother had the surname of Mullens (this is an Gaelic surname of possible Irish origins).

How do you know what you found is accurate or correct?

The Swedish and German shocked me. Wasn't really expecting that. Howvever, I think Klebold was the MORE German of the 2.

The Irish doesn't surprise me. He's mostly English, which doesn't surprise me.

Do you have anything for Dylan's side?

Rancid43 wrote:

How do you know what you found is accurate or correct?

Yes, I am fairly certain that it's accurate. There's an obituary for Richard Kesline Pool (Eric's grandfather) available on findagrave.com, so it was easier to look up this side of the tree. Anyway, Richard was born in Illinois, but his two parents, Myron James Pool and Alma Erickson, were born in South Dakota. Myron and Alma were Eric's great-grandparents. Myron's father was Wilson Pool and his mother was Lucy Etta Kesling. Lucy's surname is of German origin. That would make them Eric's great-great-grandparents. I haven't looked into Elaine's origins yet. I will have to set aside an afternoon for that. It was difficult enough finding Richard Pool's census data; ancestry.com's database is unforgiving if you don't know how to use it!

Quote :

Do you have anything for Dylan's side?

I haven't researched that yet. I am still in the process of doing Eric's tree.

Eric's side is pretty predictable for the most part. He's just your standard Celto-Germanic White American.

Dylan is so much more exotic. Hes 25% Ashkenazi Jewish, German, and French it seems like.

Rancid43 wrote:

Eric's side is pretty predictable for the most part. He's just your standard Celto-Germanic White American.

Eric's ancestry is standard for families that have lived the American West for many generations. His ancestry is English, Irish, Swedish, and German.

Eric's paternal ancestry (mostly English and small amounts of Irish:

• Grandfather: Walter Harris: (ancestry unknown, was an orphan and adopted by Isaac Harris and his wife Minnie Harris at 2 years old
  
  Grandmother: Thelma Juanita Mann Parks
  
  Great-Grandparents (Thelma's Parks' parents): Jody Allen Parks and Liddie Parks (née Mullins)
  
  Great-Great Grandparents (Liddie's parents): Henry Mullins and Ida Mullins (née Lovell)
  

Eric's maternal ancestry (English, Swedish, and German):

• Grandparents: Richard Kesline Pool and Elaine Kinsey
  
  Great-Grandparents: (Richard's parents) Myron James Pool and Alma Pool (née Erickson)
  
  Great-Grandparents: (Elaine's parents) Earl Kinsey and Lenora Kinsey (née Wilhemi)
  
  Great-Great-Grandparents(Myron's parents): Wilson J. Pool and Lucy Pool (née Kesling)
  
  Great-Great-Grandparents (Alma's parents): Alfred Erickson and Matilda Erickson (née Johnson)
  
  Great-Great-Grandparents (Earl's parents): Ulyses Kinsey and May Kinsey (née Crain)
  
  Great-Great-Grandparents (Lenora's parents): Peter Wilhemi and Rose Barnhart
  

the fact that dylan had relatives in toledo blows my mind !! i live there, nobody is ever from here lol

jada887 wrote:

Rancid43 wrote:

Eric's side is pretty predictable for the most part. He's just your standard Celto-Germanic White American.

Eric's ancestry is standard for families that have lived the American West for many generations. His ancestry is English, Irish, Swedish, and German.

Eric's paternal ancestry (mostly English and small amounts of Irish:

• Grandfather: Walter Harris: (ancestry unknown, was an orphan and adopted by Isaac Harris and his wife Minnie Harris at 2 years old
  
  Grandmother: Thelma Juanita Mann Parks
  
  Great-Grandparents (Thelma's Parks' parents): Jody Allen Parks and Liddie Parks (née Mullins)
  
  Great-Great Grandparents (Liddie's parents): Henry Mullins and Ida Mullins (née Lovell)
  

Eric's maternal ancestry (English, Swedish, and German):

• Grandparents: Richard Kesline Pool and Elaine Kinsey
  
  Great-Grandparents: (Richard's parents) Myron James Pool and Alma Pool (née Erickson)
  
  Great-Grandparents: (Elaine's parents) Earl Kinsey and Lenora Kinsey (née Wilhemi)
  
  Great-Great-Grandparents(Myron's parents): Wilson J. Pool and Lucy Pool (née Kesling)
  
  Great-Great-Grandparents (Alma's parents): Alfred Erickson and Matilda Erickson (née Johnson)
  
  Great-Great-Grandparents (Earl's parents): Ulyses Kinsey and May Kinsey (née Crain)
  
  Great-Great-Grandparents (Lenora's parents): Peter Wilhemi and Rose Barnhart
  

That was my point. Eric is the all-American White guy while Dylan is quite an "ethnic" white that you'd find in New York. Susan Klebold is 50% Ashkenazi Jewish and looks Middle Eastern with her dark eyes and hooked nose.

Dylans grandfather, Milton Rice Yassenoff, kind of had an Italian vibe to him - [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

You can see the beady eyes, black hair, and hooked nose. Quite Mediterranean looking - [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

betteroffdying wrote:

the fact that dylan had relatives in toledo blows my mind !! i live there, nobody is ever from here lol

Yep. Most of Dylan's maternal side seems to have come from Ohio, and before that, New York where his maternal grandparents were trying to escape anti-Semitic pogroms in the Ukraine.

The Klebold line seems to come from Texas.

What an interesting contrast of ancestries. German and Jewish.

I wonder if he ever felt confused with his identity. Poor kid.

I find it quite hard to believe that Eric hated Jews as much as he was posing and posturing in his journal. His best friend and partner in crime was 1/4 Jewish.

Rancid43 wrote:

Susan Klebold is 50% Ashkenazi Jewish and looks Middle Eastern with her dark eyes and hooked nose.

Dylans grandfather, Milton Rice Yassenoff, kind of had an Italian vibe to him

Dylan's maternal grandfather, Milton, had Russian and German ancestry. Milton's parents (Dylan's great-grandparents) were Leo Yassenoff and Betty Lupton. Milton's grandfather, Isaac Yassenoff, immigrated to the United States from Russia, and his grandmother, Catherine Felsenthal, immigrated to the United States from Germany. Betty Lupton's parents were Levi S. Lupton and Della Lupton (nee Bush). The Lupton surname comes from Yorkshire, England.

There's no hint of Mediterranean (e.g., Italian, Greek, Spain, Turkey, etc) ancestry in Dylan's tree. However, Ashkenazi Jews, in general, do have an admixture of Middle Eastern and European genes.

can see Dylan's face in both those photos. Crazy how long that facial feature has been passed down.

jada887 wrote:

Rancid43 wrote:

Susan Klebold is 50% Ashkenazi Jewish and looks Middle Eastern with her dark eyes and hooked nose.

Dylans grandfather, Milton Rice Yassenoff, kind of had an Italian vibe to him

Dylan's maternal grandfather, Milton, had Russian and German ancestry. Milton's parents (Dylan's great-grandparents) were Leo Yassenoff and Betty Lupton. Milton's grandfather, Isaac Yassenoff, immigrated to the United States from Russia, and his grandmother, Catherine Felsenthal, immigrated to the United States from Germany. Betty Lupton's parents were Levi S. Lupton and Della Lupton (nee Bush). The Lupton surname comes from Yorkshire, England.

There's no hint of Mediterranean (e.g., Italian, Greek, Spain, Turkey, etc) ancestry in Dylan's tree. However, Ashkenazi Jews, in general, do have an admixture of Middle Eastern and European genes.  

Wrong.

Milton and Leo Yassenoff were Ashkenazi Jews who are basically displaced Mediterranean people. Not NATIVE German and Russians. Ashkenazi Jews are half-Middle Eastern and half-European and cluster genetically with Greeks, Southern Italians, and Sicillians so they ARE a Mediterranean people. That's why they have the State of Israel. Israel is on the Mediterranean. Ashkenazi males immigrated from Israel to Europe, so yes, Dylan is part Mediterranean. He has a hooked nose and his mother, Susan has dark brown hair, brown beady eyes, and a curved nose. They both have Middle Eastern/Mediterranean features and most Ashkenazi Jews do.

Dylan was a quarter Ashkenazi Jewish which is basically the same as Southern Italian or Greek.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

See ASH which is represented by a red dot? That's Ashkenazi. They're right beside the Greeks and Turks. Nowhere near the Germans or Russians.

Adam Sandler: Ashkenazi Jew

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Looks extremely Mediterranean to me. Let me guess, you think he looks German or Russian

There's a good reason for Italians always playing Jews in Holywood movies and visa versa. It's because they come from the same gene pool. The only difference is that some Jews took on the appearance of wherever they migrated to in Germany or Poland or whatever but the vast majority of them look Semitic.

You need a bit of schooling in genetics and human populations.

Dylan just inherited the lighter Nordic features from his father who was German. He's mixed.

Ok, I stand corrected. I haven't studied population genetics at university (I studied chemistry as a minor) so I will take your word for it. The only reason I pointed out that Isaac and Charlotte were born in Russia and Germany, was that when immigrants came to this country from Ellis Island, they had to fill out a Naturalization form, which means that the applicant would have to indicate country of origin and birth. Yes, I know ethnicity and nationality are different concepts. I was pointing out that Dylan's recent ancestors (up to third great grandparents) all had central/eastern European ancestry by birth. I am not concerned about Dylan's 17th great-grandparents.

jada887 wrote:

Ok, I stand corrected. I haven't studied population genetics at university (I studied chemistry as a minor) so I will take your word for it. The only reason I pointed out that Isaac and Charlotte were born in Russia and Germany, was that when immigrants came to this country from Ellis Island, they had to fill out a Naturalization form, which means that the applicant would have to indicate country of origin and birth. Yes, I know ethnicity and nationality are different concepts. I was pointing out that Dylan's recent ancestors (up to third great grandparents) all had central/eastern European ancestry by birth. I am not concerned about Dylan's 17th great-grandparents.

It's alright. You're probably totally confused about the Jews but I was as well until I started to study them and find out who they really were. Your ignorance isn't your fault. They're an EXTREMELY mixed population and look like pretty much everything. Lots of Mediterranean populations are like this but the Jews especially. You probably thought that Milton and Leo were actually Russian and German at first? Ashkenazi is an ethnicity. I'm not shocked at you not knowing though. The Jews are an extremely tricky bunch to figure out. And I'm not being racist when I say this, they are. They are literally everywhere. They're sort of like a tribe without a home. Israel was only created in 1951.

Rancid43 wrote:

You probably thought that Milton and Leo were actually Russian and German at first? Ashkenazi is an ethnicity.

Well, I pointed out in my earlier reply that ethnicity and nationality are two separate issues. Because Isaac was born in Russia, his nationality was Russian; however, because he was born to an Ashkenazi Jewish family, his ethnicity was Jewish. For example, suppose I was born in Canada and was granted Canadian citizenship, my nationality would be Canadian. But because I was born to a German family, for example, my ethnicity is German.

As I recall, Dylan's Jew ancestor played for Ohio State football.

The obituary for Eric's grandfather on his mother's side. He died pretty recently as well. I can definetley see Erics face when I look at him with the way the eyes and nose are positioned and the smile.

Richard Kesline Pool
Birth 22 Oct 1922
Rockford, Winnebago County, Illinois, USA
Death 27 Nov 2015 (aged 93)
Lakewood, Jefferson County, Colorado, USA

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"Richard passed away peacefully on November 27, 2015 in Lakewood, Colorado at the age of 93. Dick is survived by his wife of 71 years, Elaine, 3 Daughters, 5 grandchildren, and 5 great-grandchildren. The World War II Air Force veteran served with the Greatest Generation in the Pacific and with the United States Air Force Reserve. He achieved the distinguished rank of Chief Master Sergeant and is still often addressed by his family as "Chief."

A funeral service will be held in Dick's honor on Friday, December 4, 2015 at 9:30AM at the Horan & McConaty Family Chapel, 5303 E. County Line Road, Centennial, Colorado. Interment at Fort Logan National Cemetery will take place immediately following at 11:15AM, Staging Area 'C'.
- See more at: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I wonder if Eric was included in the "survived by" count of grandchildren or whether he was forgotten altogether. The later wouldn't surprise me.

Rancid43 wrote:

I wonder if Eric was included in the "survived by" count of grandchildren or whether he was forgotten altogether. The later wouldn't surprise me.

I doubt Eric was included in the "survived by" count because he preceded his grandfather in death, so it's technically correct to exclude him in the count. I doubt the family wrote him off years ago. He's probably missed and fondly remembered by those who knew him best, his own family. Just because Eric went on a shooting spree doesn't mean he's automatically written off and persona non grata.

I always found the pairing of these 2 considering their ancestries to be so bizarre. In the 1950s they wouldve been against eachother. Enemies. Catholics and Jews werent welcomed at one point in America. Erics ancetsry is likely majority Protestant. Dylan's maternal ancestors escaped from the Ukraine due to antisemitism and settled in Ohio.

Do I think Eric was a Nazi? No. I think he just entertained a few ideas. If he really hated Jews that much he would've dismissed Dylan as inferior and wanted nothing to do with him. I think the racism was a front. These 2 guys hated everyone.

It's funny how these 2 would up together though and ended up sharing the same hatred for humankind. Enough to put aside their ancestral differences.

I always found the pairing of these 2 considering their ancestries to be so bizarre. In the 1950s they wouldve been against eachother. Enemies. Catholics and Jews werent welcomed at one point in America. Erics ancetsry is likely majority Protestant. Dylan's maternal ancestors escaped from the Ukraine due to antisemitism and settled in Ohio.

Do I think Eric was a Nazi? No. I think he just entertained a few ideas. If he really hated Jews that much he would've dismissed Dylan as inferior and wanted nothing to do with him. I think the racism was a front. These 2 guys hated everyone.

It's funny how these 2 would up together though and ended up sharing the same hatred for humankind. Enough to put aside their ancestral differences.

While I doubt Eric could recite the date of the Beer Hall Putsch, or even knew Hitler's birthday, you can hardly honestly entertain the idea whether he was a Nazi or not if you have the post-war TV-driven morality saying Nazis are uniquely the worst thing to happen in history, the Form of the Bad. Obviously, if you don't think that about Columbine, you will infer that he wasn't one, but that's says nothing about him, it just says it doesn't follow from your assumptions.  The relevant point seems to me that Eric grew out of just such a view.

Also, as e. g Jonathan Haidt points out using psychological research, the right (for lack of a better term) can explain what the left believes (they almost certainly were converts from the other side), while the left can't explain what the right believes, and think even entertaining the idea is as taboo as a Victorian talking about pornography. It's just evil racist inferior wizard hate magic, or a 'front' if it isn't that.

For example, a thing right wingers actually say is that the only people who understand the world are Jews and Nazis. It's far from some contradiction for both to find interest in the other. Nazis know a lot more about Jews than some liberal gentile, who would dismiss learning about it as something low-status racist Nazis i. e. inferior people do.

Rancid43 wrote:

I always found the pairing of these 2 considering their ancestries to be so bizarre. In the 1950s they wouldve been against eachother.

No, not necessarily in the 1950s; poll research taken around that time suggested that the religiosity in America was on the decline, so that would suggest a more welcoming behavior towards non-Protestant Americans (hence, the rise in interfaith marriages in the 1950s and 1960s: Eric's great-grandparents had an interfaith marriage because Jody Allen Parks (a Protestant) marriaged Liddie Mullins (a Catholic) ). The animosity towards Catholics and Jews didn't officially end until the late 1960s.

Your joking right? Prejudice against Italian and Jewish Americans was ripe up until the 60s. There are even documented lynchings of both of these groups. Not to mention that the far right still attacks Jewish Americans to this day. They dont seem to care about the Italians though and have pretty much let them in. Anti Semitism is one of the Core tenants of white nationalism, so during the 50s, Dylan wouldve very much been seen as "Other".

Not fully integrated as white in WASP America like the Irish, Polish, and Italians.

So yes. It is strange that 2 different sides of White America ended up together.

Also, Ashkenazi Jews are an actual ethnicity. Not just a religion. There origins are Middle Eastern.

You can't use Eric's tiny bit of Irish ancestry as an argument. The vast majority of his ancestry was of WASP stock. Mostly English. The Swedish are Protestant as are a lot of Germans.

Actually, Eric was even WASPier then what people think of as a WASP (British). The English are only 1/3rd Anglo Saxon.

The Angles and Saxons were tribes from Northern Germany and Scandinavia. The only reason British people are referred to as WASPs is because the South East part of England, facing Scandinavia was conquered by Vikings giving some English people a Nordic look to them with blonde hair and blue eyes.

jada887 wrote:

Rancid43 wrote:

I always found the pairing of these 2 considering their ancestries to be so bizarre. In the 1950s they wouldve been against eachother.

No, not necessarily in the 1950s; poll research taken around that time suggested that the religiosity in America was on the decline, so that would suggest a more welcoming behavior towards non-Protestant Americans (hence, the rise in interfaith marriages in the 1950s and 1960s: Eric's great-grandparents had an interfaith marriage because Jody Allen Parks (a Protestant) marriaged Liddie Mullins (a Catholic) ). The animosity towards Catholics and Jews didn't officially end until the late 1960s.

Has nothing to do with religiosity man; has to do with religious differences telling us about ancestral differences, hence it was in this thread. The Jews are not just a religion; they are a people who have a religion. The Chinese are not just a language; they are a people who have a language. I don't become Chinese by speaking Chinese. I don't become Jewish by wearing a yarmulke. The type of human animal known as Chinese tend to speak this language; and the type of human animal known as Jew tends to wear that hat.

While it's slightly more complicated with Christianity or Islam, the same applies.  Americans didn't dislike Catholics because of disagreeing with some point of Thomas Aquinas, they disliked them because they came from Ireland and Italy and Spain, while Britain and France and Germany and Holland were more typically American.  

However, obviously, Catholics from Italy are still European, still Christian, still white, and so have justified claims to American citizenship and the W on the census form since the founding. While rancid might give lip service to Jews being a race, an ethnicity, a type of human animal, it's a gigantically obvious coping mechanism pretending it's about religion to talk about "Jews and Italians", when this conversation (if he was actually capable of having it)  is about the Jewish question.  It is not a coincidence a Jew made the myth that the Irish were ever considered non white. It's the same attempt at misdirection.  To conflate being somebody of middle Eastern ancestry living in America with being a Catholic of pure European ancestry. And uhh Dylan wasn't Italian. Frankly, it's an insult to one's intelligence for rancid to try that, and he seems easily self amused by playing around with his own assumptions.

The most basic point the Nazis hammered over and over is that Jews are a race and not a religion.  It's what they saw as the worst of the Jews Big Lies. Again, if can't even entertain that idea, the last thing you should be talking about is anti-semitism. Which, by the way, everyone knows is a form of 'racism' and not 'religiousism' or whatever.  Or, rather, racism is just applying anti-semitism to blacks. Being anti racist in 1965 is literally justified on the grounds of being an anti-Nazi in 1945, while before that nobody cared or would even know 'racism' was a word. Can get a blood test to tell if you're Jewish, but not one for if you're a unitarian.  Being anti Italian is not on the list of PC sins precisely because they are white, unlike Jews, with whom disagreeing is not only on the list of PC sins but is the foundational and most wicked PC sin justifying all the others. The extent to which transphobia/homophobia/sexism/racism is bad is the extent to which it's like 'anti semitism'. That's how it's justified; not with anti-catholicism.

"The Angles and Saxons were tribes from Northern Germany and Scandinavia. The only reason British people are referred to as WASPs is because the South East part of England.." 
They were referred to as WASPs because they are WASPs, and, nah, just northern Germany.

[quote="cakeman"][quote="jada887"]

Rancid43 wrote:

"The Angles and Saxons were tribes from Northern Germany and Scandinavia. The only reason British people are referred to as WASPs is because the South East part of England.." 
They were referred to as WASPs because they are WASPs, and, nah, just northern Germany.

Not fully. The British are only 1/3rd Anglo-Saxon. They have a lot of Roman input from the time of the Roman Empire.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

The Angles and Saxons also came from Denmark, which is Scandinavia.

cakeman wrote:

jada887 wrote:

Rancid43 wrote:

I always found the pairing of these 2 considering their ancestries to be so bizarre. In the 1950s they wouldve been against eachother.

No, not necessarily in the 1950s; poll research taken around that time suggested that the religiosity in America was on the decline, so that would suggest a more welcoming behavior towards non-Protestant Americans (hence, the rise in interfaith marriages in the 1950s and 1960s: Eric's great-grandparents had an interfaith marriage because Jody Allen Parks (a Protestant) marriaged Liddie Mullins (a Catholic) ). The animosity towards Catholics and Jews didn't officially end until the late 1960s.

Has nothing to do with religiosity man; has to do with religious differences telling us about ancestral differences, hence it was in this thread. The Jews are not just a religion; they are a people who have a religion. The Chinese are not just a language; they are a people who have a language. I don't become Chinese by speaking Chinese. I don't become Jewish by wearing a yarmulke. The type of human animal known as Chinese tend to speak this language; and the type of human animal known as Jew tends to wear that hat.

While it's slightly more complicated with Christianity or Islam, the same applies.  Americans didn't dislike Catholics because of disagreeing with some point of Thomas Aquinas, they disliked them because they came from Ireland and Italy and Spain, while Britain and France and Germany and Holland were more typically American.  

However, obviously, Catholics from Italy are still European, still Christian, still white, and so have justified claims to American citizenship and the W on the census form since the founding. While rancid might give lip service to Jews being a race, an ethnicity, a type of human animal, it's a gigantically obvious coping mechanism pretending it's about religion to talk about "Jews and Italians", when this conversation (if he was actually capable of having it)  is about the Jewish question.  It is not a coincidence a Jew made the myth that the Irish were ever considered non white. It's the same attempt at misdirection.  To conflate being somebody of middle Eastern ancestry living in America with being a Catholic of pure European ancestry. And uhh Dylan wasn't Italian.

No, but he was 1/4 Ashkenazi Jewish, and Ashkenazi Jews are extremely similar to Southern Italians genetically. I don't know what you're accusing me of. They are an actual ethnicity and have their own spot on genetic PCA plots. They ARE a group along with Sephardic and Mizrahim Jews. That's not a matter of debate. It's scientific fact.

Sue Klebold looks pretty Jewish (Middle Eastern) to me. Dark eyes, a curved nose, and dark hair. People often said Dylan had a "big nose" but Dylan took a lot of Tom's features. Tom is German or French if I not mistaken. "Klebold" is from Alsace Lorraine which is what is now apart of France.

[quote="cakeman"]

jada887 wrote:

Rancid43 wrote:

I always found the pairing of these 2 considering their ancestries to be so bizarre. In the 1950s they wouldve been against eachother.

The most basic point the Nazis hammered over and over is that Jews are a race and not a religion.  It's what they saw as the worst of the Jews Big Lies. Again, if can't even entertain that idea, the last thing you should be talking about is anti-semitism. Which, by the way, everyone knows is a form of 'racism' and not 'religiousism' or whatever.  Or, rather, racism is just applying anti-semitism to blacks. Being anti racist in 1965 is literally justified on the grounds of being an anti-Nazi in 1945, while before that nobody cared or would even know 'racism' was a word. Can get a blood test to tell if you're Jewish, but not one for if you're a unitarian.  Being anti Italian is not on the list of PC sins precisely because they are white, unlike Jews, with whom disagreeing is not only on the list of PC sins but is the foundational and most wicked PC sin justifying all the others. The extent to which transphobia/homophobia/sexism/racism is bad is the extent to which it's like 'anti semitism'. That's how it's justified; not with anti-catholicism.

"The Angles and Saxons were tribes from Northern Germany and Scandinavia. The only reason British people are referred to as WASPs is because the South East part of England.." 
They were referred to as WASPs because they are WASPs, and, nah, just northern Germany.

As someone with Italian ancestry I'm going to say that this is debatable. There are certainly a lot of White pasty (WASP) looking Italians but there are also a fair number that aren't and who most people wouldn't really consider "White" at all. The same goes for Jews, Greeks, French (Maybe not the furthest North French, and anybody who isn't Northwestern European.

Rancid43 wrote:

Your joking right? Prejudice against Italian and Jewish Americans was ripe up until the 60s. There are even documented lynchings of both of these groups. Not to mention that the far right still attacks Jewish Americans to this day.

Yes, in the American South. It was evident that southern Italians (particulary Silicians and Calabrians) faced prejudice there, although they were never included in the WASP subculture, even though intermarriage between the two groups increased in the 1950s and 1960s in the north.  

Blacks and Hispanics are mostly the culprits in modern day attacks against Orthodox and Reform Jews. According to the Washington Post, whites (mostly those who make up the far right in modern America) are less likely to hold antisemitic views, while African-Americans and Hispanics are more likely (blacks are also behind several recent antisemitic shootings in recent months). Here's the article: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

An article detailing the rise of antisemitism in New York and New Jersey:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Important quote from the above mentioned article: "While police data is not available, judging from news reports and other sources it appears that many — but not all — of the assailants in the incidents of harassment and assault in Brooklyn have been African-American."

cakeman wrote:

Has nothing to do with religiosity man; has to do with religious differences telling us about ancestral differences, hence it was in this thread.

Religion was, and is, an important component to ethnicity, especially in Europe, where ethnic groups coalesced around a sect of Christianity (e.g., Western Slavic groups tended to be Catholics, while Eastern Slavic groups tended to be Orthodox Christians). In the past, religion was the glue that held nations and communities together, and religious differences were not tolerated, which means that interfaith marriages were rare. Interfaith marriages (not a decline in religious belief) are associated with low ethnocentrism and in-group preference. Granted, religion is not the only binding force in society: language and customs are also important, but religion, for a very long time in human history, was central to nation-building and stability

cakeman wrote:

The Jews are not just a religion; they are a people who have a religion. The Chinese are not just a language; they are a people who have a language. I don't become Chinese by speaking Chinese. I don't become Jewish by wearing a yarmulke. The type of human animal known as Chinese tend to speak this language; and the type of human animal known as Jew tends to wear that hat.

True. I never stated otherwise in any of my posts. Jews, as I haven't pointed out yet, are higher in ethnocentrism than Europeans, hence interfaith marriages and conversions are not encouraged in the Jewish community, while they are more tolerated in modern Europe and the United States.

cakeman wrote:

The most basic point the Nazis hammered over and over is that Jews are a race and not a religion. 

The Nazis have also pointed out that Jews are not German, and that it's quite ridiculous to conclude that a Chinese national could ever become a German, or vice versa. Ethnicity is blood.

jada887 wrote:

Rancid43 wrote:

Your joking right? Prejudice against Italian and Jewish Americans was ripe up until the 60s. There are even documented lynchings of both of these groups. Not to mention that the far right still attacks Jewish Americans to this day.

Yes, in the American South. It was evident that southern Italians (particulary Silicians and Calabrians) faced prejudice there, although they were never included in the WASP subculture, even though intermarriage between the two groups increased in the 1950s and 1960s in the north.  

Blacks and Hispanics are mostly the culprits in modern day attacks against Orthodox and Reform Jews. According to the Washington Post, whites (mostly those who make up the far right in modern America) are less likely to hold antisemitic views, while African-Americans and Hispanics are more likely (blacks are also behind several recent antisemitic shootings in recent months). Here's the article: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

An article detailing the rise of antisemitism in New York and New Jersey:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Important quote from the above mentioned article: "While police data is not available, judging from news reports and other sources it appears that many — but not all — of the assailants in the incidents of harassment and assault in Brooklyn have been African-American."

Once again, why are you failing to mention that the Jews were also targeted in the South but include Italians with no issue?

The Calabrians were fine. It was the Sicilians that faced the most discrimination because of their darker skin. They were in a boat similar to the Jews who also had a very hard time in the American South. Another group not welcomed in WASP subculture. Sicillians and Jews were seen as "between the color line" of Black and White and often faced discrimination, especially if they had darker skin which some do. Intermarriage between Ashkenazi Jews and Gentiles was also a rare thing in the South. Italians and Jews were mostly discriminated against for religious reasons rather than racial reasons. If they had darker skin of course they'd have been discriminated more. They obviously weren't black, so the discrimination would've been more along the lines of "their culture, language, and religion is totally alien to that of WASPs". African Americans were literally lynched just for being black.

Oddly enough there are no records of similar groups such as Greeks, Spaniards, or Croatians being discriminated against in the American South, although I'm sure they would've been had there been enough of them.

Jewish Lynching's in Georgia and Tennessee

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

This wasn't limited to the American South though. Anti-Semitism and Anti-Italianism was ripe in the North as well.

The most recent attack on the Pittsburgh Synagogue was committed by a WASP White Nationalist, Robert Bowers. He killed 18 Jews. It is now the deadliest incident of Anti-Semitism in US history.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Needless to say, Modern White Supremacists in the American south hate Jews MUCH more then they hate Italians. Just browse Stormfront or David Duke's Twitter account for a clue on how much they like the Jews.

There's a difference between the Sicillians and the other Southern Italians. (Calabrians, Campanians, Basillicatans, etc.) Sicily was ruled by Arabs for over 200 years which gave them a noticeably darker skin tone then the rest of the Italians. Not all of them, but in some of them it certainly reflected in their phenotype.

Rancid43 wrote:

Once again, why are you failing to mention that the Jews were also targeted in the South but include Italians with no issue?

Because I didn't think I had to. Anyone who has ever studied American history, knows that out of 4,000 lynchings in the practice's heyday, 1,000 were white WASPs who were notorious vigilantes, horse-thieves, outlaws, and rapists. Blacks also had their own lynching gangs that punished rapists with the impunity of vigilante justice. Also, these lynching were widely publicized, so we know how many whites faced the lynch mob, as opposed to blacks, who were convicted of crime

Rancid43 wrote:

The most recent attack on the Pittsburgh Synagogue was committed by a WASP White Nationalist, Robert Bowers. He killed 18 Jews. It is now the deadliest incident of Anti-Semitism in US history.

It was certainly clear that the Tree of Life Synagogue was violating US immigration law by smuggling in aliens from Bhutan and Somalia, possibly in cahoots with human traffickers. Although that's one attack (11 Jews were killed in the attack, not 18, btw), it's still clear that African-Americans and Hispanics are more anti-Semitic than the general population according to two ADL studies conducted in 2013 and 2016, respectively, and are more likely to act on them: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here's an article detailing the recent uptick in antisemitic attacks perpetrated by blacks:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

jada887 wrote:

Rancid43 wrote:

Once again, why are you failing to mention that the Jews were also targeted in the South but include Italians with no issue?

Because I didn't think I had to. Anyone who has ever studied American history, knows that out of 4,000 lynchings in the practice's heyday, 1,000 were white WASPs who were notorious vigilantes, horse-thieves, outlaws, and rapists. Blacks also had their own lynching gangs that punished rapists with the impunity of vigilante justice. Also, these lynching were widely publicized, so we know how many whites faced the lynch mob, as opposed to blacks, who were convicted of crime

Rancid43 wrote:

The most recent attack on the Pittsburgh Synagogue was committed by a WASP White Nationalist, Robert Bowers. He killed 18 Jews. It is now the deadliest incident of Anti-Semitism in US history.

It was certainly clear that the Tree of Life Synagogue was violating US immigration law by smuggling in aliens from Bhutan and Somalia, possibly in cahoots with human traffickers. Although that's one attack (11 Jews were killed in the attack, not 18, btw), it's still clear that African-Americans and Hispanics are more anti-Semitic than the general population according to two ADL studies conducted in 2013 and 2016, respectively, and are more likely to act on them: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Here's an article detailing the recent uptick in antisemitic attacks perpetrated by blacks:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Out of those 1000 Whites lynched also included were Italians and Jews. They are apart of that figure because they certainly aren't African American. Jews DID get lynched. Did you ever hear about the story of Leo Frank that spawned the ADL? That happened in Georgia. Or Samuel Bierfield.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]