Is suicide really wrong, or weak?

I seen this topic while browsing through the RPG archives. I know we've discussed Dylan and Eric's suicides many of times, but we've never really discussed our views on suicide itself. Do you think suicide is wrong and/or weak?

I think its weak because you can look for help to change what makes you feel so bad to something.better, but I dont blame or jugde the people that commite suicide because they are so desperate, insecure and depress that death is their only help to feel better and thats what matter. I think about that topic a lot, for some reason I find fascinating the way how they end with their own life and not in an accident, illness and in the hands of another person, I think that end with our own life is not only wrong or weak, I think that the person is brave too because not everyone do it, not everyone decide when they are gonna die, many times is something else and they got the chance to end everything in that way to not suffer anymore and is a very strong decision,. Is weak?, yes.because they can look for some another help to change their suffering for happiness, but at the same time is a decision that make them strong

I don't think at all that it is a weak thing to take your own life. To overcomes your own fear of death you either have to be really resolute or really desperate or both. Neither of these things, I would consider as weakness.
It always depends on the certain case, of course, but there are definitive people who committed suicide, who I think of as absolutely courageous and heroic. Yukio Mishima comes in my mind automatically, as well as the japanese Kamikaze-aviators and even some of the suicide Mujahedin (lets just think of those who only attack soldiers, not civilians, for a moment).

I don't think there is any one answer. For some people suicide is a rational choice; for others, it's a way of trying to hurt people, and for still others it's a part of a individual psychology or karma that can't really be understood by someone on the outside.

Someone with a terminal illness is not in the same situation as someone who impulsively chooses suicide because of a lovers' spat or not making the starting team.

I don't think suicide is always a weak choice.

We had a debate about that when I went to Medical Assistance school. A debate about "Assisted suicide" for people who were terminally ill. Of course I was on the side that was for it. They also made us watch a video where Jack Kevorkian assisted a man with his own suicide.

If people are terminally ill and there is no chance of recovery, why shouldn't they be allowed to end their own lives? Why should they have to go on living in pain day in and day out? To make everyone else happy? Because their loved ones aren't ready for them to die? I think that is selfish (on the loved ones part).

It's easy to label suicide as weak, but if your life is so abject that you are considering to end it, you'd have to say suicide takes a lot of guts.

I watched a documentary of suicide jumpers from the Golden Gate bridge, and one survivor described it well. It was easy going to the bridge, climbing up and jumping off in his mind. But when he was sitting there about to leap over, he just couldn't bring himself to do it. He did jump though and miraculously survived.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I don't think at all that it is a weak thing to take your own life. To overcomes your own fear of death you either have to be really resolute or really desperate or both. Neither of these things, I would consider as weakness.
It always depends on the certain case, of course, but there are definitive people who committed suicide, who I think of as absolutely courageous and heroic. Yukio Mishima comes in my mind automatically, as well as the japanese Kamikaze-aviators and even some of the suicide Mujahedin (lets just think of those who only attack soldiers, not civilians, for a moment).

Yes, because you're mentally strong if you kill yourself. That makes A LOT of sense.

I find it difficult to judge others on something I've been through too. I wouldn't call suicide weak, but it's not something courageous either. It's more a feeling of "nothing matters anymore" and with that attitude it's easy to do extremely unhealthy things like drinking, doing drugs, suicide, etc. I've known suicidal people people who almost threw themselves into oncoming traffic and it's as though the thin layer that wants you to stay alive suddenly vanishes. Sure, you can get help, but therapy & counseling doesn't work for everybody, and psychiatric medication really isn't the best option either. Not everyone has people they feel comfortable talking to.

It's not being weak committing suicide, and it's not being strong either. But it is being strong wading through depression and a whole lot of problems making life unbearable.

Suicide in our society is rarely heroic (like Japanese seppuku, etc. as Hale-Bopp mentioned) and it's really a big problem that is not just individual...it has causes in the way we function as a society. It's an evidence, right?

Whether it's wrong...It's not really popular to talk about something being wrong or good, is it? It sounds rigid and conceited. But I think if we look at how suicide impacts, not only the loss of one life that could have been made better, but also the life of others around affected by somebody killing him/herself, I think it's wrong. The ripple effects it has are well documented.

Multiply that with hundreds, thousands, millions of suicide of people who may have been helped, it's a real loss, it's a tragedy and it's wrong. In my opinion.

Ivan wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I don't think at all that it is a weak thing to take your own life. To overcomes your own fear of death you either have to be really resolute or really desperate or both. Neither of these things, I would consider as weakness.
It always depends on the certain case, of course, but there are definitive people who committed suicide, who I think of as absolutely courageous and heroic. Yukio Mishima comes in my mind automatically, as well as the japanese Kamikaze-aviators and even some of the suicide Mujahedin (lets just think of those who only attack soldiers, not civilians, for a moment).

Yes, because you're mentally strong if you kill yourself. That makes A LOT of sense.

Do you really want to say, that the Kamikaze aviators weren't mentally strong?

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I don't think at all that it is a weak thing to take your own life. To overcomes your own fear of death you either have to be really resolute or really desperate or both. Neither of these things, I would consider as weakness.
It always depends on the certain case, of course, but there are definitive people who committed suicide, who I think of as absolutely courageous and heroic. Yukio Mishima comes in my mind automatically, as well as the japanese Kamikaze-aviators and even some of the suicide Mujahedin (lets just think of those who only attack soldiers, not civilians, for a moment).

Yes, because you're mentally strong if you kill yourself. That makes A LOT of sense.

Do you really want to say, that the Kamikaze aviators weren't mentally strong?

Yes, because they had bizarre beliefs and they were extremely deranged. They were easily led and poisoned by society's manipulators.

JayJay wrote:

It's not being weak committing suicide, and it's not being strong either. But it is being strong wading through depression and a whole lot of problems making life unbearable.

Suicide in our society is rarely heroic (like Japanese seppuku, etc. as Hale-Bopp mentioned) and it's really a big problem that is not just individual...it has causes in the way we function as a society. It's an evidence, right?

Whether it's wrong...It's not really popular to talk about something being wrong or good, is it? It sounds rigid and conceited. But I think if we look at how suicide impacts, not only the loss of one life that could have been made better, but also the life of others around affected by somebody killing him/herself, I think it's wrong. The ripple effects it has are well documented.

Multiply that with hundreds, thousands, millions of suicide of people who may have been helped, it's a real loss, it's a tragedy and it's wrong. In my opinion.

The effect it has on the ones who love the victim is indescribable. There are phases of the grieving process that make you want to do the same thing to end the pain that their suicide is causing you to feel. It will entirely destroy you. You will never be the same after someone you love does this. It is unbearable. And, of course, it is still stigmatized, and some incredibly narrow minded people constantly have something ignorant and entirely unwarranted to say to you while you're grieving.

In my personal experience, you will never stop grieving, it just goes through different phases. As I said [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], my life is divided into two periods, so to speak. Before he passed, and after he passed.

After my loved one committed suicide, a dear friend shared a quote from the sister of musician Nick Drake, who is believed to have committed suicide. It was something to the effect of "You never "get over" something like this, you just grow around it". That is precisely how it is.

It is so difficult to fairly assess whether or not it is weak or wrong in every single solitary case. To me, I feel that in the case of my loved one, he was at his weakest when he did it. He was beaten down by utterly excruciating emotional and spiritual pain that simply cannot be adequately or properly explained. He wanted it gone. He wanted to be free. He felt worthless and useless. He felt like a failure. He just couldn't wake up everyday and go through the same motions anymore. There is a lot to his story, so I know this isn't making complete sense. So, when it comes to him, I think it was wrong, and I feel he was at his absolute weakest state. But that doesn't necessarily mean he was weak overall.

It is impossible for any of us to truly know how or why someone else does this; what it is they are feeling mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and/or even physically. Many want to believe that no matter what someone is going through, they can just hang on and get through it, but we are not them. We are not existing through their eyes, and experiencing life through their mind, body and soul. Therefore, in my opinion at this time, the question posed here can't be entirely answered. It is too complex.

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I don't think at all that it is a weak thing to take your own life. To overcomes your own fear of death you either have to be really resolute or really desperate or both. Neither of these things, I would consider as weakness.
It always depends on the certain case, of course, but there are definitive people who committed suicide, who I think of as absolutely courageous and heroic. Yukio Mishima comes in my mind automatically, as well as the japanese Kamikaze-aviators and even some of the suicide Mujahedin (lets just think of those who only attack soldiers, not civilians, for a moment).

Yes, because you're mentally strong if you kill yourself. That makes A LOT of sense.

Do you really want to say, that the Kamikaze aviators weren't mentally strong?

What I wrote is that suicide is neither strong nor weak, in my opinion. I meant in itself. People can be strong or weak, I wouldn't know how to qualify people, much less kamikazes.

Kamikazes can very well have been strong, however, that's more complicated an issue than the suicide we encounter in our society due to depression and pain. I mean, Japanese seppuku and kamikazes are special subjects. We live in a society where that kind of concept of honor, shame and sacrifice for the nation is almost unthinkable. It's very far from the suicide we face on a regular basis.

That reminds me of an event that happened near me many years ago. A well-known person locally was discovered to have committed seppuku with a knife. No drugs were found in his body, he did it cold-blooded, aware, kneeling in his kitchen. He almost completed the process but died before the gesture was complete. It was not out of self-sacrifice, shame or heroism. He was mentally ill, very depressed. He had been fascinated with Japanese culture and suicide culture for years, too.

I can understand the fascination with that type of death. However, since very few people in our society commit suicide while being fully aware and out of existential choice, I can't say suicide is done from a position that makes sense. People do it because they are unwell and society sucks. Even if kamikazes made their choice for heroic purposes and self-sacrifice, it's very romantic and tragic but I'm still sorry for them. You must know from reading about it the kind of pressure they had to go through to be able to do that, first, from their families ('' honor your family, honor the emperor'') and from their nation, officers, etc.

tfsa47090 wrote:

JayJay wrote:

It's not being weak committing suicide, and it's not being strong either. But it is being strong wading through depression and a whole lot of problems making life unbearable.

Suicide in our society is rarely heroic (like Japanese seppuku, etc. as Hale-Bopp mentioned) and it's really a big problem that is not just individual...it has causes in the way we function as a society. It's an evidence, right?

Whether it's wrong...It's not really popular to talk about something being wrong or good, is it? It sounds rigid and conceited. But I think if we look at how suicide impacts, not only the loss of one life that could have been made better, but also the life of others around affected by somebody killing him/herself, I think it's wrong. The ripple effects it has are well documented.

Multiply that with hundreds, thousands, millions of suicide of people who may have been helped, it's a real loss, it's a tragedy and it's wrong. In my opinion.

The effect it has on the ones who love the victim is indescribable. There are phases of the grieving process that make you want to do the same thing to end the pain that their suicide is causing you to feel. It will entirely destroy you. You will never be the same after someone you love does this. It is unbearable. And, of course, it is still stigmatized, and some incredibly narrow minded people constantly have something ignorant and entirely unwarranted to say to you while you're grieving.

In my personal experience, you will never stop grieving, it just goes through different phases. As I said [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], my life is divided into two periods, so to speak. Before he passed, and after he passed.

After my loved one committed suicide, a dear friend shared a quote from the sister of musician Nick Drake, who is believed to have committed suicide. It was something to the effect of "You never "get over" something like this, you just grow around it". That is precisely how it is.

It is so difficult to fairly assess whether or not it is weak or wrong in every single solitary case. To me, I feel that in the case of my loved one, he was at his weakest when he did it. He was beaten down by utterly excruciating emotional and spiritual pain that simply cannot be adequately or properly explained. He wanted it gone. He wanted to be free. He felt worthless and useless. He felt like a failure. He just couldn't wake up everyday and go through the same motions anymore. There is a lot to his story, so I know this isn't making complete sense. So, when it comes to him, I think it was wrong, and I feel he was at his absolute weakest state. But that doesn't necessarily mean he was weak overall.

It is impossible for any of us to truly know how or why someone else does this; what it is they are feeling mentally, emotionally, spiritually, and/or even physically. Many want to believe that no matter what someone is going through, they can just hang on and get through it, but we are not them. We are not existing through their eyes, and experiencing life through their mind, body and soul. Therefore, in my opinion at this time, the question posed here can't be entirely answered. It is too complex.

Wow. I can't even begin to imagine the pain you've been through. And it's only been 2 years, too. There's much to grow around still, following the quote you found. It's so right, you can't really ever get over something like that...I guess you just relearn to live and not assign blame where it does not belong? It's really nice that you stayed and now you can share your experience here. You're really very strong, you know. Much love to you!

Ivan wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Hale-Bopp wrote:

I don't think at all that it is a weak thing to take your own life. To overcomes your own fear of death you either have to be really resolute or really desperate or both. Neither of these things, I would consider as weakness.
It always depends on the certain case, of course, but there are definitive people who committed suicide, who I think of as absolutely courageous and heroic. Yukio Mishima comes in my mind automatically, as well as the japanese Kamikaze-aviators and even some of the suicide Mujahedin (lets just think of those who only attack soldiers, not civilians, for a moment).

Yes, because you're mentally strong if you kill yourself. That makes A LOT of sense.

Do you really want to say, that the Kamikaze aviators weren't mentally strong?

Yes, because they had bizarre beliefs and they were extremely deranged. They were easily led and poisoned by society's manipulators.

What you call a bizarre belief, is experienced as truth by others. What you consider as truth can be seen as bizarre by others. I don't find the beliefs of the Kamikaze aviators bizarre at all. And that their self-sacrifice was only a product of manipulation by society, is just a interpretation. Some might have been, Others probably did it due true personal beliefs.

JayJay wrote:

What I wrote is that suicide is neither strong nor weak, in my opinion. I meant in itself. People can be strong or weak, I wouldn't know how to qualify people, much less kamikazes.

Kamikazes can very well have been strong, however, that's more complicated an issue than the suicide we encounter in our society due to depression and pain. I mean, Japanese seppuku and kamikazes are special subjects. We live in a society where that kind of concept of honor, shame and sacrifice for the nation is almost unthinkable. It's very far from the suicide we face on a regular basis.

That reminds me of an event that happened near me many years ago. A well-known person locally was discovered to have committed seppuku with a knife. No drugs were found in his body, he did it cold-blooded, aware, kneeling in his kitchen. He almost completed the process but died before the gesture was complete. It was not out of self-sacrifice, shame or heroism. He was mentally ill, very depressed. He had been fascinated with Japanese culture and suicide culture for years, too.

I can understand the fascination with that type of death. However, since very few people in our society commit suicide while being fully aware and out of existential choice, I can't say suicide is done from a position that makes sense. People do it because they are unwell and society sucks. Even if kamikazes made their choice for heroic purposes and self-sacrifice, it's very romantic and tragic but I'm still sorry for them. You must know from reading about it the kind of pressure they had to go through to be able to do that, first, from their families ('' honor your family, honor the emperor'') and from their nation, officers, etc.

You are right, that this view on suicide and honor, actually is not common, but I don't agree that it is unthinkable. The "heroic death on the battlefield" was also an important part of our traditional culture, both European and American (it might not be the same as a heroic suicide, but it goes in the same line).
The suicide of the man from hour local area, who committed suicide, definitively is sad, but I cant feel otherwise, than even seeing a heroic sphere in his death, too. Maybe I'm irrational in that point.

Ivan wrote:

Yes, because they had bizarre beliefs and they were extremely deranged. They were easily led and poisoned by society's manipulators.

You could say this about anyone who fights in any war.

JayJay wrote:

Wow. I can't even begin to imagine the pain you've been through. And it's only been 2 years, too. There's much to grow around still, following the quote you found. It's so right, you can't really ever get over something like that...I guess you just relearn to live and not assign blame where it does not belong? It's really nice that you stayed and now you can share your experience here. You're really very strong, you know. Much love to you!

Thank you very much for the kindness you've extended to me in this post. I wasn't on the actual brink of doing the same as my loved one, but the pain can be so overwhelming that the thought crosses your mind multiple times per day/hour/minute....whatever the particular phase of grief you're experiencing arouses in you.

Despite how it sounds, in these few lines I've shared here, I am really not even remotely scratching the surface about how this feels for those left behind (and in my case it was a former long term companion/lover), so, just imagine how amplified it is when your loved one, especially your own child, takes his own life after taking the lives of others. It is incomprehensible.