Dylan and Sue

From another thread:

Wideawake wrote:

Is it possible that Susan Klebold had a mental illness or something "wrong" with her to the extent that it caused Dylan to feel this rage toward females and special needs kids?

Interesting questions. I do remember seeing somewhere recently that Sue Klebold had suffered from an obsessive fear of death. Also, I remember Judy Brown mentioning that Sue Klebold was a "clinical" but nurturing parent. I had the impression that Dylan did not receive a lot of physical affection. His longings for human contact and particularly feminine contact would seem to back this up. Maybe he resented girls and women for withholding the human touch we all need to survive. Maybe he saw his mother giving so much attention to special needs kids while missing his own "special" needs.

Sue is on record saying that she never pressed Dylan about the "ketchup" incident even though he was visibly shaken. Likewise with the incident when Dylan came home from school crying and covered himself with stuffed animals. She failed to pursue the reason or even find out how Dylan recovered. She writes in her essay that she thought of Dylan as someone who prided himself on solving his own problems. We know that the opposite was, in fact, how Dylan was actually feeling.

What does clinical mean here? Only that she wasn't a tactile sort of parent?

maninthebox wrote:

What does clinical mean here? Only that she wasn't a tactile sort of parent?

Yes, I think that is what Judy Brown meant.

"In the days before he died, I had hugged him and told him how much I loved him. I held his scratchy face between my palms and told him that he was a wonderful person and that I was proud of him. Had he felt pressured by this? Did he feel that he could not live up to my expectations?"

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Perhaps she wasn't a huge hugging type parent but I don't believe it's not like Sue deprived Dylan of parental affection.


Personally, I don't think Dylan was a misogynist or felt rage towards special needs children.  Dylan was shy and awkward around girls.  He was frustrated and jealous that he couldn't easily achieve, like many of his friends, a girlfriend in HS.  He was on the outside looking in when it came to women. His best friend Zach found "the perfect soulmate" and all his friends moved onward and up while Dylan felt he stayed behind.  That isn't to say he couldn't have relationships with girls  - he had a great platonic relationship with both Devon and Robyn but in his depression his view was completely skewed and he essentially seemed to think women set out to "hate and ignore" him.  Dylan likely picked on easy targets because he was too intimidated to go head-to-head with the popular, conventionally attractive preps and jocks.  So, as a tall, rangy guy, he opted for tackling the richy bitchy popular girls in gym class to blow off steam. He hated gym class and was picked on for his awkward, lanky heighth; people called him "stretch" and "Jolly Green Giant" - so probably when no one was looking, he released that pent up rage and tackled a popular, pretty chick because physically speaking, the chick was an easy enemy to take down.   Another good example of the 'easy targets'  would be kids with special needs.  It's like a pecking order: Dylan felt deficient and inadequate around the jocks and so Dylan goes after the kids with a deficit because it boosts his low self esteem and elevates his status. Dylan picked on Adam Kyler, who had a mental handicap.  Dylan shoots the mentally challenge boy, Kyle Velasquez, in the Library simply because the kid is just sitting there as they walk in and doesn't appear to have the sense to get out of his chair.  Dylan took advantage of the situation with boys that, in comparison to himself, had less intelligence.  It isn't really just Dylan Klebold that did this type of thing and there is nothing unique about any of it just because he became a "Columbine Killer". Many High School and Middle School boys that have been bullied, in turn, often find an easy outlet and play 'kick the dog' with those that they feel they have an edge over. It's a easy way to dump the pain and self hate.  It's pretty common, actually.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

School boys that have been bullied, in turn, often find an easy outlet and play 'kick the dog' with those that they feel they have an edge over. It's a easy way to dump the pain and self hate.  It's pretty common, actually.

Thanks for your thoughts. Dylan did not pick on Eric who was beneath him in the Columbine pecking order; by numerous accounts he protected him. Some even see him as Eric's follower. I understand "kick the dog" and I was a teenage boy, but I think there's more going on here.

One thing I appreciated about Sue was when I read her article, it seemed like she held Dylan and Eric equally responsible. While some others acted as though it was all Eric's fault and Dylan was just a follower. Sue sad that "under each other's influence" Dylan and Eric got in trouble TOGETHER, not that Eric made Dylan get into trouble.

Of course, at first, I am sure she wanted to believe that Dylan was pressured into it, but I think in the end she realized that wasn't the case, that Dylan made the decision himself to go through with it. I respect her for admitting that.

gustopoet wrote:

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

School boys that have been bullied, in turn, often find an easy outlet and play 'kick the dog' with those that they feel they have an edge over. It's a easy way to dump the pain and self hate.  It's pretty common, actually.

Thanks for your thoughts. Dylan did not pick on Eric who was beneath him in the Columbine pecking order; by numerous accounts he protected him. Some even see him as Eric's follower. I understand "kick the dog" and I was a teenage boy, but I think there's more going on here.

Well, no. Why would he?  Dylan and Eric were close friends.  Friends support one another even in their own inferiority and low self esteem.  In fact, a significant part of their bond and support of one another is in jointly feeling beneath the majority in CHS. A pair of outsiders, low on the totem pole, and ultimately find power as an 'Army of Two" misfits rebelling against the world. And who said that Dylan viewed Eric as "beneath him"?   If you're referring to the fact that Eric was physically shorter than Dylan, then yeah sure, in a literal sense of being beneath him.  Still, of the two, it would seem, at least from the snapshot glimpse of the "Car wax Commercial", it does appear that Eric is slightly more Alpha over Dylan occasionally. While Eric may be short, Dylan is social shyer and more awkward of the two but since they are friends, none of that matters or has any bearing on the pecking order, which is largely external.

I understand where you're going with it:  alluding that Dylan's relationship with his mother's lack of affection may have created a void in Dylan that caused these aggressive behaviors.  Other than Judy Brown saying "clinical", and here again, she doesn't really define precisely how she means it, there isn't any other accounts alluding that Dylan's mother withheld affection or was distant physically to the point that it would shape Dylan against females or cause him to pick on Special Needs kids simply because his mother spent time with them on her job.  It's a speculation but there really isn't anything substantial to prove it as a factor in Dylan's bullying behavior.

I do agree that Dylan had a strong need for female affection and not typically in the manner that most teen boys would explore in a personal journal. Eric's "I'm a dog" seems more the norm. But Dylan's wanting to cuddle and just be with Her. That was enough. I think this ..craving..which seems more nurturing in nature and less sexual is indicative of his deep depression and the complete void within himself.  The longing to be cured and made to feel whole by having a" Soul Mate" like a puzzle piece that fits you and completes the parts of you that are lacking.  He was so very jealous of Zach for having Devon.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

 It's a speculation but there really isn't anything substantial to prove it as a factor in Dylan's bullying behavior.

I'm not sure what you define as "substantial" but I think it's a bit premature to make such a sweeping statement. The nature of human psychology is such that even things which seem coincidental or banal on the surface often, on closer, careful inspection hold important emotional and psychological (and spiritual) significance.

As such I don't think you can dismiss Dylan's behavior toward girls and special needs kids so easily. Also, I disagree that Dylan was not a misogynist. I think it's clear from the facts and evidence that we have on hand that he most certainly was one. Yes, he was a misanthrope who hated everyone, but he expressed a special hate for "bitches" right through to and during the library massacre.

infininceX5 wrote:

 It's a speculation but there really isn't anything substantial to prove it as a factor in Dylan's bullying behavior.

gustopoet wrote:

I'm not sure what you define as "substantial" but I think it's a bit premature to make such a sweeping statement. I started this thread to discuss possibilities and also speculations about Dylan's relationship with his mother. I'd be interested to hear what others have to say. As I said, I think there's more to these aspects of the case than some might first observe. The nature of human psychology is such that even things which seem coincidental or banal on the surface often, on closer, careful inspection hold important emotional and psychological (and spiritual) significance.

While you and I are not quite on the same page here, I do agree that it would be interested to hear what others have to say.  And if we're going down this armchair psychological 'stone uncovering' path of dissecting how they came to be by exploring the relationship with the parents, in my opinion, Dylan had more obvious issues with his father than his mother.  In the Basement Tapes, the only parent he addresses in his goodbye is his his "Mom".  That says a lot right there in and of itself.  There is more accounts out there that detail Dylan having a difficult relationship with his father than his mother.  That is what I'm referring to when I say substantial.

gustopoet wrote:

As such I don't think you can dismiss Dylan's behavior toward girls and special needs kids so easily.

See, I don't really think I dismissed it so easily at all.  I pretty much addressed the rational behind it in my first reply as one of the 'others' replying to this thread.

gustopoet wrote:

Also, I disagree that Dylan was not a misogynist. I think it's clear from the facts and evidence that we have on hand that he most certainly was one. Yes, he was a misanthrope who hated everyone, but he expressed a special hate for "bitches" right through to and during the library massacre.

How many guys out there call women 'bitches' yet, they still have relationships with women?  Dylan called Peggy Dodd a "bitch" for not letting him print more than 10 pages.  Well, that's because she WAS being a bitch.   ;)  Dylan called Tara Zobjeck a bitch because she called him out on his crap in gym class.  A natural, male defensive reaction in response to the ego getting attacked.  Yet, there was Dylan still having a close friendship with Robyn and giving Devon a lift to school daily.  Meanwhile, awkward Dylan asked out Tobin Kennedy more than a handful of times at the mall.  I'm sure working up the nerve to do that was hard for his personality type.  His mom asked him to pick her up from her hike if it rained.  Did he do so?  Yes.   And Eric?  Unlike, Dylan, he had no female relationships that were 'just friends' in High School.  But of course, on the BTs, he's ranting about how women are born to stay at home and "make us dinner, bitch!"   Yet, Eric kept trying to find a girlfriend up until the last minute before NBK.  If anything Eric would be more the likely misogynist because he asked quite a few girls out to prom that rejected him, one of them doing so in front of the class.  Yet, I believe Eric would do anything for his mom. He loved her.   I don't really think either of them wanted to hate women nor were misogynists to the core.  At the end of the NBK day,  they just had a jumbled, irrational list of hates. It didn't matter particularly what it was, it was just time to Hate It and Kill It like an organism attacking itself.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

How many guys out there call women 'bitches' yet, they still have relationships with women? 

I don't know, but how ever many it is, they are displaying misogynistic behavior when they do so. I'd say the same holds true for cold blooded murder. There are people who have raped and murdered women, or even little girls, who still have "relationships" with women. From what I understand, Charles Manson is about to get married, and maintains a whole lot of relationships with girls and women, and he is most certainly a misogynist as was Dylan Klebold. 

Hugh Hefner is a misogynist (as is any pornographer) and he's had multiple wives and a daughter.

As far as that goes, any fundamentalist Christian or Muslim would technically be a misogynist.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

  I don't really think either of them wanted to hate women nor were misogynists to the core.  At the end of the NBK day,  they just had a jumbled, irrational list of hates. It didn't matter particularly what it was, it was just time to Hate It and Kill It like an organism attacking itself.

I agree with the last part and attempted to make it clear that I considered both boys to be misanthropes. They hated humanity, obviously, but they could still be (and were) racists and misogynists.

Misogyny, like racism, is a sinister evil that can exist in a person's "core" even though they demonstrate opposing ideas or actions. To me, it looks like the boys found every "poison" that our culture offers up as signs of power: racism, misogyny, and violence are endemic aspects of American culture that stand for power. Those who have no worldly power often engage in racist, misogynistic, and violent acts against those around them on a small scale, while those who do have earthly power commonly demonstrate it in the same way, just on a massive scale. War, for example, usually consists more of mass-rapes and murdering of civilians than anything else. War also usually has a racist underpinning, in almost every case, even in terms of civil wars.

I think the boys engaged in every activity that symbolized power: fireworks, guns, bombs, rebel missions, racism, misogyny, trench coats, threats, violent films, weird "Nazi" attitudes, were all things these two tragically powerless little kids tried to surround themselves with to assuage their fear of being in our morbid, merciless, and extremely threatening society. They were trying to compensate for being powerless and they turned to the same  sick tactics most people use, culminating in murder, which is, after-all, despite our collective fascination with Columbine, an every-day occurrence in America.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

 In the Basement Tapes, the only parent he addresses in his goodbye is his his "Mom".

Yes, it is like he is blaming her for NBK.

Imagine you are Sue Klebold and your son is about to go massacre people and the first thing he says in his goodbye message is "Hi Mom, it's about 1/2 an hour before our little judgement day."

OK, let's do some (very brief) "armchair analysis" of this. By addressing his mom specifically and exclusively, Dylan is placing his relationship with her as primary. By saying "our little judgment day" Dylan is diminishing NBK. He has already indicated that "Mom" is more important than NBK. He then says (paraphrasing) "I didn't like life too much wherever the fuck I go I'll be happier."

Keep in mind, Sue Klebold's self-identity is based on being a nurturer.  Dylan is destroying his mother with his final statement. I don't know if you are a parent, but if my 17 year old son left me a suicide note such as this, I would never recover and I would know that he meant for me to never recover. Dylan is telling his mother "You failed as a MOM. I'm a killer of innocents. I hated my life. You didn't love me enough to make me want to live."

I think Dylan saw his mother being "joyful" in helping special needs kids and finding her sense of purpose while "abandoning" Dylan at least in Dylan's mind. I think he wanted to take all of that away from her.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

 The longing to be cured and made to feel whole by having a" Soul Mate" like a puzzle piece that fits you and completes the parts of you that are lacking.  He was so very jealous of Zach for having Devon.

Objectifying women and/or girls as the "thing" that completes you is a misogynistic attitude, as is jealousy. No matter how romantic or articulate someone is, wanting to possess women or girls like objects is misogynistic. It may be normal, typical, and common in our culture but it is still misogynistic and still part of the same psychological impulses that form the will to power and very often result in rape and murder.

gustopoet wrote:

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

 In the Basement Tapes, the only parent he addresses in his goodbye is his his "Mom".

Yes, it is like he is blaming her for NBK.

Imagine you are Sue Klebold and your son is about to go massacre people and the first thing he says in his goodbye message is "Hi Mom, it's about 1/2 an hour before our little judgement day."

OK, let's do some (very brief) "armchair analysis" of this. By addressing his mom specifically and exclusively, Dylan is placing his relationship with her as primary. By saying "our little judgment day" Dylan is diminishing NBK. He has already indicated that "Mom" is more important than NBK. He then says (paraphrasing) "I didn't like life too much wherever the fuck I go I'll be happier."

Keep in mind, Sue Klebold's self-identity is based on being a nurturer.  Dylan is destroying his mother with his final statement. I don't know if you are a parent, but if my 17 year old son left me a suicide note such as this, I would never recover and I would know that he meant for me to never recover. Dylan is telling his mother "You failed as a MOM. I'm a killer of innocents. I hated my life. You didn't love me enough to make me want to live."

I think Dylan saw his mother being "joyful" in helping special needs kids and finding her sense of purpose while "abandoning" Dylan at least in Dylan's mind. I think he wanted to take all of that away from her.

Gustopoet, I like your analysis here, and think it is a pretty insightful way of looking at this final statement and Dylan's relationship with Sue. I also feel he was very resentful of the meaning she found in helping others, when he himself obviously thought himself very much in need of help and assistance.  His final statement, as you analyze it, is, not surprisingly considering Dylan, a very passive-aggressive final swipe at Sue.  If she even realizes this now, she certainly doesn't want to talk about it or admit to it, and probably doesn't let herself think too much about it, as it would be much too painful.

gustopoet wrote:

Sue is on record saying that she never pressed Dylan about the "ketchup" incident even though he was visibly shaken. Likewise with the incident when Dylan came home from school crying and covered himself with stuffed animals. She failed to pursue the reason or even find out how Dylan recovered. She writes in her essay that she thought of Dylan as someone who prided himself on solving his own problems. We know that the opposite was, in fact, how Dylan was actually feeling.

I'm backtracking a bit here, but the above post really bothers me. Not the post itself, but what it describes. Here are two incidents in which Dylan was quite clearly in emotional turmoil. I don't understand why she didn't pursue this. I realize that every parenting style is different, but I would want to know what was going on. Particularly the ketchup incident. When your child comes home upset and covered in ketchup, this should be a warning sign that something is definitely wrong. I would probably assume bullying immediately. And given, I've never been a teenage boy, but it seems to me that being bullied would be easier to admit to your mother than your father.

I'd also like to add that I have a career where I "nurture" other people, and at times have caught myself being more involved with those other people than my own family. It's easy to do, particularly when things in your home life are very stressful. So I can see where (with the problems with Byron, etc.) Sue may have gotten distant at home and how that might have a negative effect on Dylan.

Jenn wrote:

Of course, at first, I am sure she wanted to believe that Dylan was pressured into it, but I think in the end she realized that wasn't the case, that Dylan made the decision himself to go through with it. I respect her for admitting that.

I agree. One of the things that I always found oddly moving about Wayne Harris's "Eric" notebook was where, I believe after the "van" incident, he had simply listed Sue Klebold's phone #. This stuck with me for some weird reason and I kept thinking: well, if he did call her he would have found an intelligent and concerned parent just as himself.

Wideawake wrote:

I'm backtracking a bit here, but the above post really bothers me. Not the post itself, but what it describes.

It is quite disturbing. I think Dylan was fiercely shy and independent and this led his parents to assume he was self-reliant. In one place, Sue Klebold wrote that she had a dream after NBK where she came into Dylan's room, lifted up his t-shirt and saw thousands of tiny cuts which had previously been hidden from view. I think this was a very significant dream.

Here are some of the "cuts" that I feel we can all now see, but that Sue may have neglected to notice:

1) Dylan's sleep schedule.

2) His weight.

3) His hygiene.

4) His morbidity.

5) His drinking.

6) His self-harming in the form of "cutting."

7) His being bullied at school.

8 ) His building and detonating of pipe-bombs.

9) His acquiring, firing, and videotaping of himself w/ illegal weapons including a sawed off double-barrel shotgun.

10) His addiction to videogames.

11) His hacking into school computers.

12) His sneaking out routinely at all hours of the night to vandalize the neighbors' property.

13) His escalating temper.

14) His association with a group called "The Trenchcoat Mafia."

These are just for starters. And by listing them I am not suggesting that Sue Klebold was a willfully neglectful parent. I think the tragedy of the situation is that the opposite is actually the case.

ThoughtBox wrote:

I also feel he was very resentful of the meaning she found in helping others, when he himself obviously thought himself very much in need of help and assistance.  His final statement, as you analyze it, is, not surprisingly considering Dylan, a very passive-aggressive final swipe at Sue.  

Exactly. And then he says (again paraphrasing) "I'm sorry for any kind of trouble this might instigate as far as..." and the word is unintelligible. I'd assumed he said something in reference to legal problems or the police. He is taking a swipe there too by insinuating that this is what will concern her: the bureaucratic fallout and public humiliation rather than losing her son.

gustopoet wrote:

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

How many guys out there call women 'bitches' yet, they still have relationships with women? 

I don't know, but how ever many it is, they are displaying misogynistic behavior when they do so. I'd say the same holds true for cold blooded murder. There are people who have raped and murdered women, or even little girls, who still have "relationships" with women. From what I understand, Charles Manson is about to get married, and maintains a whole lot of relationships with girls and women, and he is most certainly a misogynist as was Dylan Klebold. 

Hugh Hefner is a misogynist (as is any pornographer) and he's had multiple wives and a daughter.

As far as that goes, any fundamentalist Christian or Muslim would technically be a misogynist.

Good heavens!  According to your standards, a large percentage of males on the earth are bonafide misogynists because they occasionally use the word "bitch" when they're frustrated with the opposite sex.  That would cover quite a few teenage boys in High School that, no doubt, exorcise the use of that word quite regularly.  I guess that makes many women misandrist for refering to males as  'You bastards!' from time-to-time.   Idk, just seems a wee bit All or Nothing to me.  You can have instances of impatience or annoyance with the opposite gender but that doesn't make you own the word Misogynist with a capital "M" in every sense of the word.  And Hugh Hefner a misogynist?  Naww..  Reeeally??   Now, I'll grant you that Max Hardcore does fit that capacity of pornographer.  But It really makes no sense to umbrella every male pornographer out there as a misogynist who's primary motivation and goal is to undermine and control the power of women. If anything, Hefner is weak for women and need them around quite regularly.  Comparing Charles Manson polygamist relationships with women (Mormons anyone?) in relation to Dylan Klebold is a bit of a stretch for me. I appreciate the examples in your argument but you haven't convinced me that this makes Dylan Klebold a full on misogynist - just a teenage boy who was baffled by the opposite sex and how to obtain a female that would want him the way he hoped.

gustopoet wrote:

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

  I don't really think either of them wanted to hate women nor were misogynists to the core.  At the end of the NBK day,  they just had a jumbled, irrational list of hates. It didn't matter particularly what it was, it was just time to Hate It and Kill It like an organism attacking itself.

I agree with the last part and attempted to make it clear that I considered both boys to be misanthropes. They hated humanity, obviously, but they could still be (and were) racists and misogynists.

Misogyny, like racism, is a sinister evil that can exist in a person's "core" even though they demonstrate opposing ideas or actions. To me, it looks like the boys found every "poison" that our culture offers up as signs of power: racism, misogyny, and violence are endemic aspects of American culture that stand for power. Those who have no worldly power often engage in racist, misogynistic, and violent acts against those around them on a small scale, while those who do have earthly power commonly demonstrate it in the same way, just on a massive scale. War, for example, usually consists more of mass-rapes and murdering of civilians than anything else. War also usually has a racist underpinning, in almost every case, even in terms of civil wars.

I think the boys engaged in every activity that symbolized power: fireworks, guns, bombs, rebel missions, racism, misogyny, trench coats, threats, violent films, weird "Nazi" attitudes, were all things these two tragically powerless little kids tried to surround themselves with to assuage their fear of being in our morbid, merciless, and extremely threatening society. They were trying to compensate for being powerless and they turned to the same  sick tactics most people use, culminating in murder, which is, after-all, despite our collective fascination with Columbine, an every-day occurrence in America.

Within the last couple of months, I will concede they became indiscriminate misanthropes to the point where it became always meaningless and without a cause.  Sort of a "Let's hate fuckers just cause we can!" mantra.    I guess that would be the best way to program and desensitize when it came to the act of killing.  And Eric pretty much said it himself that he would have to cut off his feelings and feel no remorse. Replace compassion and emotion for hate and apathy.  A bit like US troops being taught in training to hate "The Enemy" before being unleashed into battle.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

Good heavens!  According to your standards, a large percentage of males on the earth are bonafide misogynists because they occasionally use the word "bitch" when they're frustrated with the opposite sex.

I appreciate the examples in your argument but you haven't convinced me that this makes Dylan Klebold a full on misogynist - just a teenage boy who was baffled by the opposite sex and how to obtain a female that would want him the way he hoped.

Fair enough. My point is actually that racism and misogyny are aspects of the "pecking order" of society and that the boys craved power. I concede that Dylan was not a full on misogynist, how about a "budding young misogynist?"   

In all seriousness, I do understand your points and they are well thought-out; I think we just disagree on this issue. I'll bear what you say in mind as this thread proceeds and not try not to confuse the idea of garden-variety chauvinism with full on misogyny. In my defense, I was leaning toward misogyny purely because Dylan murdered girls, so he was much more than "frustrated" with the opposite sex.

If, by your estimation, a 17 year old boy openly calling women, including teachers, "bitches," slapping & tackling girls, using a female acquaintance to obtain illegal weapons with the intent to kill, and blowing out young girls' brains is not misogynistic or somehow a product of the endemic misogyny of our culture, that's alright by me.

If my boyfriend ever called me a "bitch", even just once, I'd kick his damn ass! I am not at all surprised Dylan didn't have a girlfriend, I mean look at how he treated women. It is one thing to be frustrated or upset at the opposite sex, but to call them names and push them down and do the kinds of things that Dylan did, is it no wonder no girl wanted anything to do with him? Clearly, he was physically and verbally abusive.

InFiNiNcEX5 wrote:

 And Hugh Hefner a misogynist?  Naww..  Reeeally??   Now, I'll grant you that Max Hardcore does fit that capacity of pornographer.  But It really makes no sense to umbrella every male pornographer out there as a misogynist who's primary motivation and goal is to undermine and control the power of women. If anything, Hefner is weak for women and need them around quite regularly.  Comparing Charles Manson polygamist relationships with women (Mormons anyone?) in relation to Dylan Klebold is a bit of a stretch for me. I appreciate the examples in your argument but you haven't convinced me that this makes Dylan Klebold a full on misogynist - just a teenage boy who was baffled by the opposite sex and how to obtain a female that would want him the way he hoped.

I'm not sure you understand the nature of pornography, but in terms of Manson, he was a pimp, a rapist, a women-beater, and a child rapist. I'm not sure Mormon-style polygamist is all that good of an analogy. For some Mormons maybe.

Next you'll be telling me pimps aren't misogynistic either...?    

Anyway we are drifting off topic.

Jenn wrote:

If my boyfriend ever called me a "bitch", even just once, I'd kick his damn ass!

That does not surprise me for some reason.  

Dylan references his parents only rarely in the BT transcripts that we have available. He does mention that his parents encouraged him to be self-reliant and independent and he thanks them for doing so.

This is at least a certain, if only partial, validation of the idea that Sue Klebold's attitude toward Dylan was one that encouraged self-sufficiency. The belief that Dylan was a gifted child along with the emphasis on self-reliance could have fed into the way that Sue missed so many clues regarding Dylan's urgent needs.

I think this is, in fact, the case, and that the situation was exacerbated by Dylan's innate shyness. In the BT transcripts Dylan says that "being shy didn't help" with his plight and that he had been suffering bullying and ostracization from his peers since daycare.

He also says that his shyness and prolonged ridicule including from his brother Byron and his brother's jock friends fed his murderous rage. Is it possible Sue favored Byron over Dylan?

Here is an interesting article that recounts how Sue Klebold "wanted son to commit suicide" to prevent further killings during NBK, a wish she later regretted.

Specific quotes of note:

"Sue Klebold told Solomon, ‘I saw the end product of my life's work: I had created a monster.’

"Mrs Klebold has revealed that if she could speak to her son now, she would have asked for his forgiveness for failing to help the boy she loved so much and still loves, and for not being the person he could confide in about his inner demons."

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Another interesting article on Sue Klebold. In this one she discusses her own status as an "outcast" following NBK.

Key quotes:

Mrs Klebold said before her son's actions she'd never felt so unguarded against people who despised her for reasons she couldn't control.

'What I’ve learned from being an outcast since the tragedy has given me insight into what it must have felt like for my son to be marginalized.

'He created a version of his reality for us: to be pariahs, unpopular, with no means to defend ourselves against those who hate us.

'I could read three hundred letters where people were saying, ‘I admire you,’ ‘I’m praying for you,’ and
I’d read one hate letter and be destroyed,' Mrs Klebold said. 'When people devalue you, it far outweighs all the love.'

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Bumping this because through looking for something else, I found this and the dissection of Dylan's good-bye message in the BT is really interesting to me.

I always find it interesting when people point out some of the more subtle stuff about Dylan. It's either he was a depressed sad boy or a maniac.

The person above says by saying good bye to Sue only wasn't an act of love, it was saying "this is your fault"and how he says "sorry if this instigates any problems" might be telling her that he knows she will be annoyed at the legal ramifications etc..

Screamingophelia wrote:

Bumping this because through looking for something else, I found this and the dissection of Dylan's good-bye message in the BT is really interesting to me.

I always find it interesting when people point out some of the more subtle stuff about Dylan. It's either he was a depressed sad boy or a maniac.

The person above says by saying good bye to Sue only wasn't an act of love, it was saying "this is your fault"and how he says "sorry if this instigates any problems" might be telling her that he knows she will be annoyed at the legal ramifications etc..

This is probably the part from the BT I want to see the most, just because I really want to see how their tone and facial expressions were when they did this. Like if it was more sarcastic or genuine sounding

Judy Brown states that Sue was a clinical parent, which I take to mean to distant and less emphatic. I don't find any evidence that she didn't care about Dylan's feelings, or felt emphatic when he wanted help. When Dylan came home and cried in bedroom about bullying, Sue didn't ignore him, nor dismiss his mental anguish. I got the impression that she's like most parents who try to reassure their children with cliched solicitudes that didn't do much to help. She, I believe, didn't understand mental illness at the time, nor was she able to recognize it when she saw it. Whenever Dylan expressed moodiness or disgruntled behavior, she believed that that was normal teenage behavior. She also felt that since Dylan knew better how to manage his own life (she believed that until Dylan's death), she could be less of a parent and more of close friend. Her apparent coldness (if Judy's speaking the truth) probably comes from a place of complacency and distance. In other words, she probably felt Dylan didn't need lots of parenting, nor wanted lots of cossetting to feel adequate.

jada887 wrote:

She, I believe, didn't understand mental illness at the time, nor was she able to recognize it when she saw it.

Very much this. After Dylan was dead and she found the St John's Wort she had a moment of realization hit her. She said she had not realized he was having any sort of issues and I think she has tried to change that by really throwing herself into trying to help others with mental illness

There’s a panel discussion where sue says Dylan never cried but was empathetic but not very emotive

Yet Dylan cried in front of his friends easily.

Dylan did have an air of snobbery of him too, look at his essay in diversion about how many things he knows.

Screamingophelia wrote:

There’s a panel discussion where sue says Dylan never cried but was empathetic but not very emotive

Yet Dylan cried in front of his friends easily.

Dylan did have an air of snobbery of him too, look at his  essay in diversion about how many things he knows.

It makes sense that Dylan would hide his emotions from his parents, imo, but be more upfront with his friends.