Rita Gleasons Evidence ignored: What you may not know about Columbine

Is it possible to get in PFD?

Norwegian wrote:

Is it possible to get in PFD?

If you have Kindle, you can get Rita Gleason's book for free. Alternatively, you can sign up for Kindle and do the free trial for however many days it lasts and cancel your subscription. I cannot recommend her book enough. It is objective, incredibly thoroughly researched, and every minutiae is cited.

It's, like, 3 dollars on Amazon.

qwertyu wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Is it possible to get in PFD?

If you have Kindle, you can get Rita Gleason's book for free. Alternatively, you can sign up for Kindle and do the free trial for however many days it lasts and cancel your subscription. I cannot recommend her book enough. It is objective, incredibly thoroughly researched, and every minutiae is cited.

I loved this book. What a great read. Too bad that subject of Columbine is not as popular anymore, and new books don't get much traction.

I read up the point Where She stated that wether or not they were members of the TCM is hotly debate. She also States that some members confirmed that they were members of the TCM. This has been so toroughly debunked IDK Where its coming from. Take it with a huge grain of salt. Especially if you do not want more myths to be perpetuated. This was hugely disappointing.

Its something everyone knows is not true

No, Im not going to stick with this book as a valid source of information. The author is extremely biased and perpetuate myths that are allready debunked.

Norwegian wrote:

I read up the point Where She stated that wether or not they were members of the TCM is hotly debate. She also States that some members confirmed that they were members of the TCM. This has been so toroughly debunked IDK Where its coming from. Take it with a huge grain of salt. Especially if you do not want more myths to be perpetuated. This was hugely disappointing.

Its something everyone knows is not true

You should finish the chapter because you're not reading it right. She never says that they were TCM, she just points out the arguments for and against it.
Did you follow her citations?
Several of the known TCM members DID confirm that they were part of the TCM; it's in their police witness statements. She provides the page numbers to the statements for Chuck Phillips (arguably the "founding member" of the group), Robert Perry, Brian Sargent, Joe Stair, Marla Foust, Alex Marsh, and Robyn Anderson (who wrote the TCM dedication for the 1998-1999 yearbook. Personally, I've always wondered if the reference to the "certain downtown convention" had something to do with the gun show they went to.)
She also provides statements from friends who say they were not TCM members but just sometimes hung around with the group.
There's no myth perpetuation, she says a couple of times that it's not known if Eric and Dylan thought of themselves as TCM.

thelmar wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

I read up the point Where She stated that wether or not they were members of the TCM is hotly debate. She also States that some members confirmed that they were members of the TCM. This has been so toroughly debunked IDK Where its coming from. Take it with a huge grain of salt. Especially if you do not want more myths to be perpetuated. This was hugely disappointing.

Its something everyone knows is not true

You should finish the chapter because you're not reading it right. She never says that they were TCM, she just points out the arguments for and against it.
Did you follow her citations?
Several of the known TCM members DID confirm that they were part of the TCM; it's in their police witness statements. She provides the page numbers to the statements for Chuck Phillips (arguably the "founding member" of the group), Robert Perry, Brian Sargent, Joe Stair, Marla Foust, Alex Marsh, and Robyn Anderson (who wrote the TCM dedication for the 1998-1999 yearbook. Personally, I've always wondered if the reference to the "certain downtown convention" had something to do with the gun show they went to.)
She also provides statements from friends who say they were not TCM members but just sometimes hung around with the group.
There's no myth perpetuation, she says a couple of times that it's not known if Eric and Dylan thought of themselves as TCM.

To even speculate that they might have been members of the TCM does seem very off the hook,but I make sure to look it up. We are all fully aware of the consequences that alternative subcultures had to suffer because of media fuelled myths. Goths went through hell over how the media adressed this issue. You can have your opinions but you cannot have your own facts.

Im not extremely happy about this because its been videly reported that this was just a bogus theory.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Can you post topics in the right section from now on?

Hitmen for Hire certainly portrays them as TCM. One can imagine TCM not existing as much in their senior year as it did in their junior year might be irrelevant, given the plan/fantasy was conceived during the latter.

cakeman wrote:

Hitmen for Hire certainly portrays them as TCM. One can imagine TCM not existing as much in their senior year as it did in their junior year might be irrelevant, given the plan/fantasy was conceived during the latter.

Nope. They wore Trench Coats in that video. Doesnt mean that they were part of it. They liked to wear Trench Coats, but that doesnt mean you were part of the TCM.

That video had absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject we are talking about. It had everything to do with Dylan and Eric acting the role as hired police officers taking revenge against bullies. They were said to wear Trench Coats but thats not solid evidence of anything. Thats Just an evidence that they wore Trench Coats

Ivan wrote:

Can you post topics in the right section from now on?

And why is it the wrong section?

Norwegian wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Hitmen for Hire certainly portrays them as TCM. One can imagine TCM not existing as much in their senior year as it did in their junior year might be irrelevant, given the plan/fantasy was conceived during the latter.

Nope. They wore Trench Coats in that video. Doesnt mean that they were part of it. They liked to wear Trench Coats, but that doesnt mean you were part of the TCM.  

That video had absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject we are talking about. It had everything to do with Dylan and Eric acting the role as hired police officers taking revenge against bullies. They were said  to wear Trench Coats but thats not solid evidence of anything. Thats Just an evidence that they wore Trench Coats

I don't know what it is about Columbine that makes people so preachy. No,  they &^@#(@# literally say they are the Trench Coat Mafia in the Hitmen for Hire project:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And they extort and kill the people hiring them to get revenge.

cakeman wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Hitmen for Hire certainly portrays them as TCM. One can imagine TCM not existing as much in their senior year as it did in their junior year might be irrelevant, given the plan/fantasy was conceived during the latter.

Nope. They wore Trench Coats in that video. Doesnt mean that they were part of it. They liked to wear Trench Coats, but that doesnt mean you were part of the TCM.  

That video had absolutely nothing to do with the actual subject we are talking about. It had everything to do with Dylan and Eric acting the role as hired police officers taking revenge against bullies. They were said  to wear Trench Coats but thats not solid evidence of anything. Thats Just an evidence that they wore Trench Coats

I don't know what it is about Columbine that makes people so preachy. No,  they &^@#(@# literally say they are the Trench Coat Mafia in the Hitmen for Hire project:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

And they extort and kill the people hiring them to get revenge.

From Where? Ive watched that video countless times and Ive seen no mention of any Trench Coat mafia. This isnt me trying to be bettlitling or anything like that. I Just think that you need to get your facts straight.

Yes, it says in the head title and in the script, but its a satirical video, so I dont see this as evidence for much of anything.

I said "portrays" for a reason. The video wasn't the only part of the project. The full bloody title is "Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire".  It uses "we" being the Trench Coat Mafia, etc. And we found out how satirical it was on 4/20. This was one of the tapes left to posterity. It's certainly evidence. It's not decisive evidence, but absurd to not call it some evidence.

cakeman wrote:

I said "portrays" for a reason. The video wasn't the only part of the project. The full bloody title is "Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire".  It uses "we" being the Trench Coat Mafia, etc. And we found out how satirical it was on 4/20. This was one of the tapes left to posterity. It's certainly evidence. It's not decisive evidence, but absurd to not call it some evidence.

Of course it isnt. The only evidence this suggests is that its a Trench Coat Mafia production. It doesnt say anything about Eric and Dylans membership in that group.

Is it possibly because they were members of that group?

Or is it possible that they participate in it because they friends in that group?

The evidence doesnt say and therefore we cannot use this as a source. They had friends in that group and they liked to wear Trench Coats. In order words, that they interacted with members of the TCM is not akward. But yeah, I think its questionable, at least, that Rita Gleason tries to make claims that have been so toroughly debunked over the last ten years.

Also, Just because its says 'we' that doesnt mean its evidence that they were part of the TCM, because the whole video production is satire.

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Can you post topics in the right section from now on?

And why is it the wrong section?

Because you posted the thread in the announcement section which is dedicated to upcoming or significant events on the forum not further Columbine related questions or discussion.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Can you post topics in the right section from now on?

And why is it the wrong section?

Because you posted the thread in the announcement section which is dedicated to upcoming or significant events on the forum not further Columbine related questions or discussion.

I cant find anything. Are you sure?

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Can you post topics in the right section from now on?

And why is it the wrong section?

Because you posted the thread in the announcement section which is dedicated to upcoming or significant events on the forum not further Columbine related questions or discussion.

No, its posted under thoughts on the shooting. If this is a problem you should take it with the moderators or admin.

But, thanks, anyway, Ill see what I can do

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Can you post topics in the right section from now on?

And why is it the wrong section?

Because you posted the thread in the announcement section which is dedicated to upcoming or significant events on the forum not further Columbine related questions or discussion.

No, its posted under thoughts on the shooting. If this is a problem you should take it with the moderators or admin.

But, thanks, anyway, Ill see what I can do

1) I moved the thread.
2) I am a moderator.
3) You can't move threads or posts without being a moderator.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Can you post topics in the right section from now on?

And why is it the wrong section?

Because you posted the thread in the announcement section which is dedicated to upcoming or significant events on the forum not further Columbine related questions or discussion.

No, its posted under thoughts on the shooting. If this is a problem you should take it with the moderators or admin.

But, thanks, anyway, Ill see what I can do

1) I moved the thread.
2) I am a moderator.
3) You can't move threads or posts without being a moderator.

Fair enough and if I cant do it, I cant do it. Also, Im pretty sure that wo this belittlement, your message Will get better recieved

Also, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], stop spoiling the thread and write to me in private if this is a problem.

Otherwise, we have nothing to talk about. Have a Nice day

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Can you post topics in the right section from now on?

And why is it the wrong section?

Because you posted the thread in the announcement section which is dedicated to upcoming or significant events on the forum not further Columbine related questions or discussion.

No, its posted under thoughts on the shooting. If this is a problem you should take it with the moderators or admin.

But, thanks, anyway, Ill see what I can do

1) I moved the thread.
2) I am a moderator.
3) You can't move threads or posts without being a moderator.

Fair enough and if I cant do it, I cant do it. Also, Im pretty sure that wo this belittlement, your message Will get better recieved

I wasn't trying to belittle anybody - I'm just annoyed at constantly moving threads. You aren't the biggest offender so see it as an open message to everyone, not a personal attack.

Happy posting.

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Can you post topics in the right section from now on?

And why is it the wrong section?

Because you posted the thread in the announcement section which is dedicated to upcoming or significant events on the forum not further Columbine related questions or discussion.

No, its posted under thoughts on the shooting. If this is a problem you should take it with the moderators or admin.

But, thanks, anyway, Ill see what I can do

1) I moved the thread.
2) I am a moderator.
3) You can't move threads or posts without being a moderator.

Fair enough and if I cant do it, I cant do it. Also, Im pretty sure that wo this belittlement, your message Will get better recieved

I wasn't trying to belittle anybody - I'm just annoyed at constantly moving threads. You aren't the biggest offender so see it as an open message to everyone, not a personal attack.

Happy posting.

Thats settles it. I guess we all interpret messages differently when its online

I had to delete my post because the quote formatting got all screwed up. Trying again in the next one!

Basing the video on the Trench Coat Mafia doesn't mean that Eric and Dylan considered themselves members of the Trench Coat Mafia. Since the group (at least in Eric and Dylan's mind) is portrayed as having power in the film, I believe this probably means the boys had respect for the group. The film is not the only portion of the project, there was also a proposal that went with it starts on pg. 26599 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'm guessing you still haven't read the entire chapter if you still think Gleason made claims that Eric and Dylan were members of the TCM. If you have read it and you still think this, I have to ask why? She never expresses her opinion or gives a definitive answer. She shows evidence (statements from friends, parents, the boys writings, school projects) that are both against the idea that they were members, as well as for the idea that they were members. As to her own opinion, she does express on. All I could find were:

Whether Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were members of the Trench Coat Mafia has been a hotly debated topic for years. wrote:

There is no way to know for certain if Eric or Dylan identified themselves as part of the TCM. According to Tom Klebold, Dylan’s father, “he had heard Dylan mention the ‘Trench Coat Mafia’ and he advised that Dylan told him that the ‘jocks’ called him and his friends that. Mr. Klebold said that Dylan was kind of amused by the name the ‘jocks’ had given them.” wrote:

The evidence for Eric Harris’s involvement is not completely clear either. wrote:

She writes about Eric's friendship with Morris, the Hit Men for Hire project, and his father calling 911 saying that Eric was a member of the TCM and then she wrote

It is not known whether the elder Harris got that information from his son or if he assumed it because Eric was known to wear a duster. Regardless of what the TCM was or was not, and who did or did not belong, it was universally understood at Columbine High School that Trench Coat Mafia members and their associates existed amongst the bottom-dwellers of the school’s social hierarchy. wrote:

From that, how are you interpreting that she is saying that Eric and Dylan were definitely TCM?
In the majority of the chapter, she seems to be saying that the TCM wasn't some big scary group, but a handful of friends who were ostracized just because they were different. How even before kids got to Columbine they were told by other kids to stay away from TCM members, never even giving them a chance. And most of the kids who had bad things to say about the TCM couldn't even identify a single person who was a member they just knew they were "bad."

thelmar wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I said "portrays" for a reason. The video wasn't the only part of the project. The full bloody title is "Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire".  It uses "we" being the Trench Coat Mafia, etc. And we found out how satirical it was on 4/20. This was one of the tapes left to posterity. It's certainly evidence. It's not decisive evidence, but absurd to not call it some evidence.

Of course it isnt. The only evidence this suggests is that its a Trench Coat Mafia production. It doesnt say anything about Eric and Dylans membership in that group.

Is it possibly because they were members of that group?

Or is it possible that they participate in it because they friends in that group?

The evidence doesnt say and therefore we cannot use this as a source. They had friends in that group and they liked to wear Trench Coats. In order words, that they interacted with members of the TCM is not akward. But yeah, I think its questionable, at least, that Rita Gleason tries to make claims that have been so toroughly debunked over the last ten years.

Basing the video on the Trench Coat Mafia doesn't mean that Eric and Dylan considered themselves members of the Trench Coat Mafia. Since the group (at least in Eric and Dylan's mind) is portrayed as having power in the film, I believe this probably means the boys had respect for the group. The film is not the only portion of the project, there was also a proposal that went with it

I'm guessing you still haven't read the entire chapter if you still think Gleason made claims that Eric and Dylan were members of the TCM. If you have read it and you still think this, I have to ask why? She never expresses her opinion or gives a definitive answer. She shows evidence (statements from friends, parents, the boys writings, school projects) that are both against the idea that they were members, as well as for the idea that they were members. As to her own opinion, she does express on. All I could find were:

Whether Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were members of the Trench Coat Mafia has been a hotly debated topic for years. wrote:

There is no way to know for certain if Eric or Dylan identified themselves as part of the TCM. According to Tom Klebold, Dylan’s father, “he had heard Dylan mention the ‘Trench Coat Mafia’ and he advised that Dylan told him that the ‘jocks’ called him and his friends that. Mr. Klebold said that Dylan was kind of amused by the name the ‘jocks’ had given them.” wrote:

?"]

She writes about his friendship with Morris, the Hit Men for Hire project, and his father calling 911 saying that Eric was a member of the TCM and then she



I don't see how, from any of that, you can interpret that she is saying that Eric and Dylan were definitely TCM.
In the majority of the chapter, she seems to be saying that the TCM wasn't some big scary group, but a handful of friends who were ostracized just because they were different. How even before kids got to Columbine they were told by other kids to stay away from TCM members, never even giving them a chance. And most of the kids who had bad things to say about the TCM couldn't even identify a single person who was a member they just knew they were "bad."
I know you had mentioned being affiliated with goth culture and how the myths around Columbine affected kids involved with that.

This Could support my point. We Could all speculate that they were in the TCM(seems highly unlikely, judging from how public headlines have dismissed this story as false), but its also possible that, given they had friends in the TCM, they associated with the group or members of the group.

From my perspective this does suggest a speculation over long debunked claims. The point isnt wether or not the TCM was harmless. The point is that this narrative was. And it was harmful to- in fact- the alternative Kids. I know this, because Ive been active in the goth and metal Community for a while. The stereotypes that the media were able to paint Eric and Dylan with did a lot of damage to the gothic subculture. The fact is people like to project killers or criminal as as different from the mainstream as possible. 'They shouldnt look like us. And I can only speculate, but I wouldnt be surprised if thats why Eric and Dylan were typecast as Trenchoat wearing goths from news editorials that didnt have much of a clue neither what goths means nor what the TCM was. The end result was horrible for people that associated themselves as such. Some were mercilessly bullied Just for expressing themselves, and being goth back than was not easy. I could go on and on. Which is why I argue that facts are important. Because these stereotypes definately had a lot to do with the Columbine- shooting and how the media represented them. And the point isnt wether or not TCM were dangerous. Its what evidence there is that Eric and Dylan associated with them. Even withness accounts isnt mecessarily evidence, because even people that knew them or interacted with them were wrong from time to time. This is why statements should never be taken lightly. For instance, one very good example: There was a boy that was thin and tall like Dylan, and therefore one student would mix them up. This is one example of bad collection of memory. And it illustrates why Columbine is so difficult to fact check. It usually is very complex to understand school shootings and the psychology behind it. Thats why I also appeal to authority. I never do serious in depth research on anything without looking to expert opinions.

Norwegian wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I said "portrays" for a reason. The video wasn't the only part of the project. The full bloody title is "Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire".  It uses "we" being the Trench Coat Mafia, etc. And we found out how satirical it was on 4/20. This was one of the tapes left to posterity. It's certainly evidence. It's not decisive evidence, but absurd to not call it some evidence.

Of course it isnt. The only evidence this suggests is that its a Trench Coat Mafia production. It doesnt say anything about Eric and Dylans membership in that group.

Is it possibly because they were members of that group?

Or is it possible that they participate in it because they friends in that group?

The evidence doesnt say and therefore we cannot use this as a source. They had friends in that group and they liked to wear Trench Coats. In order words, that they interacted with members of the TCM is not akward. But yeah, I think its questionable, at least, that Rita Gleason tries to make claims that have been so toroughly debunked over the last ten years.

By evidence one doesn't mean conclusive. They were the ones doing the production. Some random guy on the street telling me would be some evidence. Calling themselves the TCM - granted in a fictional project, but one foreshadowing the massacre, is much more. Just seems to me you're appealing to consequences here, that the poor peaceful goth kids mean this isn't evidence.

Norwegian wrote:

This Could support my point. We Could all speculate that they were in the TCM(seems highly unlikely, judging from how public headlines have dismissed this story as false), but its also possible that, given they had friends in the TCM, they associated with the group or members of the group.

From my perspective this does suggest a speculation over long debunked claims. The point isnt wether or not the TCM was harmless. The point is that this narrative was. And it was harmful to- in fact- the alternative Kids. I know this, because Ive been active in the goth and metal Community for a while. The stereotypes that the media were able to paint Eric and Dylan with did a lot of damage to the gothic subculture. The fact is people like to project killers or criminal as as different from the mainstream as possible. 'They shouldnt look like us. And I can only speculate, but I wouldnt be surprised if thats why Eric and Dylan were typecast as Trenchoat wearing goths from news editorials that didnt have much of a clue neither what goths means nor what the TCM was. The end result was horrible for people that associated themselves as such. Some were mercilessly bullied Just for expressing themselves, and being goth back than was not easy. I could go on and on. Which is why I argue that facts are important. Because these stereotypes definately had a lot to do with the Columbine- shooting and how the media represented them. And the point isnt wether or not TCM were dangerous. Its what evidence there is that Eric and Dylan associated with them. Even withness accounts isnt mecessarily evidence, because even people that knew them or interacted with them were wrong from time to time. This is why statements should never be taken lightly. For instance, one very good example: There was a boy that was thin and tall like Dylan, and therefore one student would mix them up. This is one example of bad collection of memory. And it illustrates why Columbine is so difficult to fact check. It usually is very complex to understand school shootings and the psychology behind it. Thats why I also appeal to authority. I never do serious in depth research on anything without looking to expert opinions.

You quoted the post that I had to delete because half of my citations from the book didn't show up when I tried to edit in a page number.
Please look at all of it that I made after deleting the post you quoted.

Also, I never said that the point was whether or not the TCM was harmless. I added that part in at the end to say that she wasn't in any way negative towards the TCM or kids who dressed like that. It was an addendum, not the point of my post.

My point, and the vast majority of my post, was addressing your assertion that Gleason is claiming they were TCM. She was not. She was explaining why people were confused about it (mostly press hoopla) and giving evidence why it may have been construed that they were, as well as evidence suggesting that they were not.
It seems to me that because your community of friends were negatively affected by stereotypes that any mention of the TCM automatically puts you on high alert so you aren't looking to see what was actually said, just that it shouldn't be discussed at all. Which is the opposite of research.

tfw the title is literally "Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire" but can't grant me that at least in the film universe the hitmen are portrayed as members.

Wayne Harris's call is another good point. Indeed it's still possible they weren't - they weren't in the picture in the yearbook. Maybe it being more of a thing during their junior year (when the massacre plan formed) is how to split the difference.

Witnesses also mention the trench coat mafia a lot, though of course that's affected by rumor and trauma and the simple fact of trench coats. Can say much the same for the bullying narrative. Indeed these often come together.

Who actually wrote the script for Hitmen for Hire?
I find it hard to believe that Eric and Dylan would name their project Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire if they didnt feel somehow affiliated with the group. And it's not like it was some rigid secret organisation where you needed five letters of recommendation to became a member. It was just a group of outcast friends.

Ligeya wrote:

Who actually wrote the script for Hitmen for Hire?
I find it hard to believe that Eric and Dylan would name their project Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire if they didnt feel somehow affiliated with the group. And it's not like it was some rigid secret organisation where you needed five letters of recommendation  to became a member. It was just a group of outcast friends.

Don't know for sure who wrote it but I believe it was solely Eric's project. His is the only name on the proposal/ paper that he handed in and at one point in the paper he calls it "my business"; seems like if it was a group project everyone who was involved in it would have their names on that paper. But that's just an assumption on my part.

Another thing, which I don't think is in the book, that I've always wondered the meaning behind. In Joe Stair's yearbook, Dylan wrote:

Yo Joe… Stay different, better than the norm! Jocks suck dick. TCM!! Later <<-VODKA->> wrote:

Why include TCM like that if he didn't in some way identify with it? Is it his way of saying, "your group is great!" or what?

As I recall Dylan wasn't even in the class, so seems a safe assumption Eric wrote it, aside from his name on it.

It did seem a loose organization. Eric also had to come up with a business idea in the latter part of the first half of senior year - would not surprise me if had to go into his memory from last year for an idea for school in-jokes or something. Also pretty obviously foreshadows the massacre (they had recently acquired guns), and Hitmen for Hire is one of the "Basement Tapes"; not in the sense of being filmed in the basement of course, but in the sense of being one of the tapes they left to posterity. The massacre plot too seemed to be formed in junior year.

Is Joe Stair's yearbook in the 11k? Dylan seems to write for Eric in Eric's yearbook too - goes through all the Doom novels.

cakeman wrote:

Is Joe Stair's yearbook in the 11k? Dylan seems to write for Eric in Eric's yearbook too - goes through all the Doom novels.

I couldn't find a page with a picture of Dylan's entry in Joe's yearbook, even though I think it does exist somewhere in there. At least, I can picture it in my head
What I found was pg. 10893 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Detective Bell came across a 1998 Columbine High School year book. In the book, Detective Bell found several written messages from various students. One message in particular read, "Chico's Groove," and then directly under it, "Yo Joe...Stay different, better than the norm! Jocks suck dick. TCM!! Later <<VODKA>>

cakeman wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I said "portrays" for a reason. The video wasn't the only part of the project. The full bloody title is "Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire".  It uses "we" being the Trench Coat Mafia, etc. And we found out how satirical it was on 4/20. This was one of the tapes left to posterity. It's certainly evidence. It's not decisive evidence, but absurd to not call it some evidence.

Of course it isnt. The only evidence this suggests is that its a Trench Coat Mafia production. It doesnt say anything about Eric and Dylans membership in that group.

Is it possibly because they were members of that group?

Or is it possible that they participate in it because they friends in that group?

The evidence doesnt say and therefore we cannot use this as a source. They had friends in that group and they liked to wear Trench Coats. In order words, that they interacted with members of the TCM is not akward. But yeah, I think its questionable, at least, that Rita Gleason tries to make claims that have been so toroughly debunked over the last ten years.

By evidence one doesn't mean conclusive. They were the ones doing the production. Some random guy on the street telling me would be some evidence. Calling themselves the TCM - granted in a fictional project, but one foreshadowing the massacre, is much more. Just seems to me you're appealing to consequences here, that the poor peaceful goth kids mean this isn't evidence.

Goths usually are peaceful, though, and its not a 'poor peaceful goth Kids'. Its about stereotypes and the effects it might have. Its interesting how people in here likes to talk about bullying, yet, the stereotyping of goths have definately resultet in bullying behavour. Stereotypes affects how we treat people, wether we like it or not. And this plays an impact on Bullying behaviour aswell. Fact.

That they collaborated in a video that mentions the TCM and says 'we' isnt evidence. People take these sources way too much at face value. People also love to speculate.

Well, if its true that they were part of the TCM, than why have every major news outlet in the last decade declared this storyline as a myth? Wouldnt that be because its not true?

thelmar wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Is Joe Stair's yearbook in the 11k? Dylan seems to write for Eric in Eric's yearbook too - goes through all the Doom novels.

I couldn't find a page with a picture of Dylan's entry in Joe's yearbook, even though I think it does exist somewhere in there. At least, I can picture it in my head
What I found was pg. 10893 [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:

Detective Bell came across a 1998 Columbine High School year book. In the book, Detective Bell found several written messages from various students. One message in particular read, "Chico's Groove," and then directly under it, "Yo Joe...Stay different, better than the norm! Jocks suck dick. TCM!! Later <<VODKA>>

So, they wrote in some TCM- members yearbook. Neither evidence, nor is it an argument for.

A Columbine site even wrote how it was a misconception that they were in the TCM.

'Right after the shootings and again in late 1999 several TCM members came forward (to the media and to this site as well) to say that the young men were never part of their group. Most of the kids who'd been in the group had already graduated before the shootings. They said the shooters were friends of Chris Morris, a Trench Coater who had attended Columbine previously. Their claims were later corroberated by independent in-depth probes by news organizations such as the Pulitzer-winning Denver Post.'


Thats all for now, and I break before I Come back for more research, in the midst of all this Columbine--hype.

Norwegian wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I said "portrays" for a reason. The video wasn't the only part of the project. The full bloody title is "Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire".  It uses "we" being the Trench Coat Mafia, etc. And we found out how satirical it was on 4/20. This was one of the tapes left to posterity. It's certainly evidence. It's not decisive evidence, but absurd to not call it some evidence.

Of course it isnt. The only evidence this suggests is that its a Trench Coat Mafia production. It doesnt say anything about Eric and Dylans membership in that group.

Is it possibly because they were members of that group?

Or is it possible that they participate in it because they friends in that group?

The evidence doesnt say and therefore we cannot use this as a source. They had friends in that group and they liked to wear Trench Coats. In order words, that they interacted with members of the TCM is not akward. But yeah, I think its questionable, at least, that Rita Gleason tries to make claims that have been so toroughly debunked over the last ten years.

By evidence one doesn't mean conclusive. They were the ones doing the production. Some random guy on the street telling me would be some evidence. Calling themselves the TCM - granted in a fictional project, but one foreshadowing the massacre, is much more. Just seems to me you're appealing to consequences here, that the poor peaceful goth kids mean this isn't evidence.

Goths usually are peaceful, though, and its not a 'poor peaceful goth Kids'. Its about stereotypes and the effects it might have. Its interesting how people in here likes to talk about bullying, yet, the stereotyping of goths have definately resultet in bullying behavour. Stereotypes affects how we treat people, wether we like it or not. And this plays an impact on Bullying behaviour aswell. Fact.

That they collaborated in a video that mentions the TCM and says 'we' isnt evidence. People take these sources way too much at face value. People also love to speculate.

Well, if its true that they were part of the TCM, than why have every major news outlet in the last decade declared this storyline as a myth? Wouldnt that be because its not true?

Couldn't care less about stereotypes or goths; my point wasn't about goths per se. What it's about is encapsulated in the term "appealing to consequences".   The point is that if something were true, it having consequences one dislikes - like goths getting bad press, doesn't make it any less true. Randomly saying "fact' is not helpful.

You seem to think evidence means like a mathematical proof where one is certain of the conclusion, but that isn't what anyone means. It simply means something which ups the probability. That their being members isn't the only interpretation doesn't mean it isn't the best one. It seems to me this is a bar raising tactic to avoid an obvious inference due to some strange notion of the consequences from it.

Have you still not read the report? It doesn't just happen to mention them and happen to use we. It's not some inference that they portray themselves as (note the deliberate qualifying language) the TCM, it's a fact in the real sense of that word. Anyone who cannot read "Product overview", let alone the whole thing, and not understand that has some kind of blind spot. They are not cryptic: "Conclusion: The fact is that people need protection from the dangers of every-day encounters and the "Trench Coat Mafia" is willing to protect you."

cakeman wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

cakeman wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

cakeman wrote:

I said "portrays" for a reason. The video wasn't the only part of the project. The full bloody title is "Trench Coat Mafia Hitmen for Hire".  It uses "we" being the Trench Coat Mafia, etc. And we found out how satirical it was on 4/20. This was one of the tapes left to posterity. It's certainly evidence. It's not decisive evidence, but absurd to not call it some evidence.

Of course it isnt. The only evidence this suggests is that its a Trench Coat Mafia production. It doesnt say anything about Eric and Dylans membership in that group.

Is it possibly because they were members of that group?

Or is it possible that they participate in it because they friends in that group?

The evidence doesnt say and therefore we cannot use this as a source. They had friends in that group and they liked to wear Trench Coats. In order words, that they interacted with members of the TCM is not akward. But yeah, I think its questionable, at least, that Rita Gleason tries to make claims that have been so toroughly debunked over the last ten years.

By evidence one doesn't mean conclusive. They were the ones doing the production. Some random guy on the street telling me would be some evidence. Calling themselves the TCM - granted in a fictional project, but one foreshadowing the massacre, is much more. Just seems to me you're appealing to consequences here, that the poor peaceful goth kids mean this isn't evidence.

Goths usually are peaceful, though, and its not a 'poor peaceful goth Kids'. Its about stereotypes and the effects it might have. Its interesting how people in here likes to talk about bullying, yet, the stereotyping of goths have definately resultet in bullying behavour. Stereotypes affects how we treat people, wether we like it or not. And this plays an impact on Bullying behaviour aswell. Fact.

That they collaborated in a video that mentions the TCM and says 'we' isnt evidence. People take these sources way too much at face value. People also love to speculate.

Well, if its true that they were part of the TCM, than why have every major news outlet in the last decade declared this storyline as a myth? Wouldnt that be because its not true?

Couldn't care less about stereotypes or goths; my point wasn't about goths per se. What it's about is encapsulated in the term "appealing to consequences".   The point is that if something were true, it having consequences one dislikes - like goths getting bad press, doesn't make it any less true. Randomly saying "fact' is not helpful.

You seem to think evidence means like a mathematical proof where one is certain of the conclusion, but that isn't what anyone means. It simply means something which ups the probability. That their being members isn't the only interpretation doesn't mean it isn't the best one. It seems to me this is a bar raising tactic to avoid an obvious inference due to some strange notion of the consequences from it.

Have you still not read the report? It doesn't just happen to mention them and happen to use we. It's not some inference that they portray themselves as (note the deliberate qualifying language) the TCM, it's a fact in the real sense of that word. Anyone who cannot read "Product overview", let alone the whole thing, and not understand that has some kind of blind spot. They are not cryptic: "Conclusion: The fact is that people need protection from the dangers of every-day encounters and the "Trench Coat Mafi
a" is willing to protect you."

You are absolutely correct that it doesnt, but at the same time I think that people pushed this narrative, because they liked to think that 'these people are not like us'
they must be goth'. Whereas Eric and Dylan were none of these things. Mis information do have consequences wether we like it or not. But I think its easier for people to believe in the mythology than facts. I think its easier to believe that school shooters are Just bullied people pushed to a breaking point. The fact is usually more complex, however. For the most part, that there is no satisfying clear cut answer to why they do it. But yes, theres always- always- a combination of multiple factors, such as real or percieved slights, throw in a bit of mental illness in there and etc. With Dylan Klebold he was depressed as hell, and he should have gotten help.
At least in regards to Columbine and other historical events, I think its important to ask real hard questions in order to get with the facts.

I really don't understand how it's easier to believe someone was bullied to the point of breaking and commiting terrible crime. Easier than what?
It's a horrific thought.

Ligeya wrote:

I really don't understand how it's easier to believe someone was bullied to the point of breaking and commiting terrible crime. Easier than what?
It's a horrific thought.

Given all the knowledge we do have, its not difficult to comprehend that bullying can give people an emotional breakdown. Also, its familiar becaise many of us have gone through it. Therefore the bullying narrative in regards to school shootings is also easy, because its familiar. It makes less sense that someone commits murder because they want to feel powerful or because they glorify nazis.

The fact that school shootings are usually complex is something that most people dont comprehend. But it is. And also, I think we would have been saved a lot of speculation and misinformation if the media back than would Just be honest about what actually happened and not pushed narratives that later turned out not to be true.

Norwegian wrote:

Ligeya wrote:

I really don't understand how it's easier to believe someone was bullied to the point of breaking and commiting terrible crime. Easier than what?
It's a horrific thought.

Given all the knowledge we do have, its not difficult to comprehend that bullying can give people an emotional breakdown. Also, its familiar becaise many of us have gone through it. Therefore the bullying narrative in regards to school shootings is also easy, because its familiar. It makes less sense that someone commits murder because they want to feel powerful or because they glorify nazis.

The fact that school shootings are usually complex is something that most people dont comprehend. But it is. And also, I think we would have been saved a lot of speculation and misinformation if the media back than would Just be honest about what actually happened and not pushed narratives that later turned out not to be true.

Not all school shootings are motivated by bullying. I'd say even not many are motivated by that.

Also i don't think that Columbine is an example of media being wrong in the beginning. If you look at the old articles by guys like Kass and Pendergast, by Denver Press, by Times Magazine, they were right on the case. It's later when narrative changed, thanks to Fuselier and Cullen. In the beginning media was correct about the bullying, about huge amount of red flags from both shooters.

Ligeya wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

Ligeya wrote:

I really don't understand how it's easier to believe someone was bullied to the point of breaking and commiting terrible crime. Easier than what?
It's a horrific thought.

Given all the knowledge we do have, its not difficult to comprehend that bullying can give people an emotional breakdown. Also, its familiar becaise many of us have gone through it. Therefore the bullying narrative in regards to school shootings is also easy, because its familiar. It makes less sense that someone commits murder because they want to feel powerful or because they glorify nazis.  

The fact that school shootings are usually complex is something that most people dont comprehend. But it is. And also, I think we would have been saved a lot of speculation and misinformation if the media back than would Just be honest about what actually happened and not pushed narratives that later turned out not to be true.

Not all school shootings are motivated by bullying. I'd say even not many are motivated by that.

Also i don't think that Columbine is an example of media being wrong in the beginning. If you look at the old articles by guys like Kass and Pendergast, by Denver Press, by Times Magazine, they were right on the case. It's later when narrative changed, thanks to Fuselier and Cullen. In the beginning media was correct about the bullying, about huge amount of red flags from both shooters.

No, but thats the perception about it.

While I havent read much of Kass, he also dispells many of the myths. Much like both Cullen, Brown and Langmann did.

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Anyways, besides the point. The point is that we know by now that not every news outlet that came out after this is accurate. Thats why one should never take statements at face value. Langmann made an excellent point when he wrote 'The search for truth at Columbine'. The end result isnt what people want to hear, but its a First step in getting the facts straight. And one has to take withness accounts with caution. This is why I highly doubt that an early press report is likely to give an accurate representation. Im sure Kass knows this as well. And in regards to the bullying: No, they werent correct. They were mistaken on a lot of things. For instance did Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold go into the library specically to target jocks? No, they didnt.

Were Eric and Dylan bullied by Evan Todd? There isnt much of evidence to this, to be exact. We only have one statement and, once again, the media made a mistake in regards to how they portrayed it.

Were they goths? Certainly not. I would have known, because Im interested in that Subculture.

And than theres articles like 'dissecting the cult of the athlete'. Now, its true that Columbine did have a problem with bullying from athletes. But a significant number of them graduated the year before the shooting. Also, they came out a few years ago and debunked this article as misinformation

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Also if this is what you are referring to:
Yes, its true that bullying was rampant at Columbine. But, no, its not established that Eric and Dylan did it because of bullying.

A more in depth article is written about Harris, Klebold and bullying here:

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Norwegian wrote:

'Right after the shootings and again in late 1999 several TCM members came forward (to the media and to this site as well) to say that the young men were never part of their group. Most of the kids who'd been in the group had already graduated before the shootings. They said the shooters were friends of Chris Morris, a Trench Coater who had attended Columbine previously. Their claims were later corroberated by independent in-depth probes by news organizations such as the Pulitzer-winning Denver Post.'

Norwegian wrote:

Anyways, besides the point. The point is that we know by now that not every news outlet that came out after this is accurate. Thats why one should never take statements at face value.

Norwegian wrote:

nd one has to take withness accounts with caution.

If I am understanding this correctly, your argument is that Gleason is perpetuating a false myth because she's even discussing that Chuck Phillips, Joe Stair, Robert Perry, Brian Sargent, Marla Foust, Alex Marsh, and Robyn Anderson- TCM members- said that Eric and Dylan were TCM because we can't trust witness statements fully.

And your proof that these particular witness statements are untrue is to say that other witnesses disagreed with them and a nationally respected news organization says the latter group is right? This seems to be a rather contradictory stance to take.

thelmar wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

'Right after the shootings and again in late 1999 several TCM members came forward (to the media and to this site as well) to say that the young men were never part of their group. Most of the kids who'd been in the group had already graduated before the shootings. They said the shooters were friends of Chris Morris, a Trench Coater who had attended Columbine previously. Their claims were later corroberated by independent in-depth probes by news organizations such as the Pulitzer-winning Denver Post.'

Norwegian wrote:

Anyways, besides the point. The point is that we know by now that not every news outlet that came out after this is accurate. Thats why one should never take statements at face value.

Norwegian wrote:

nd one has to take withness accounts with caution.

If I am understanding this correctly, your argument is that Gleason is perpetuating a false myth because she's even discussing that Chuck Phillips, Joe Stair, Robert Perry, Brian Sargent, Marla Foust, Alex Marsh, and Robyn Anderson- TCM members- said that Eric and Dylan were TCM because we can't trust witness statements fully.

And your proof that these particular witness statements are untrue is to say that other witnesses disagreed with them and a nationally respected news organization says the latter group is right? This seems to be a rather contradictory stance to take.

I suspect that it does, given that this has been so videly debunked by major news outlets, yes. People tend to believe what they want to believe. If someone says that climate change isnt real they Will also go at Great to proove that its not real. Even if it is. And thats a clear example of confirmation bias. They cherry pick sources that confirm their point of view. Nobody likes it when they are wrong. But aknowledging failures and mishaps and that there is mis-information out there to check these sources and other sources of information is the only way to move forward. And its true that even friends of Eric and Dylan Could be wrong. So than we have to meassure the possibility that even people that slightly interacted with them Could be wrong

Norwegian wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

'Right after the shootings and again in late 1999 several TCM members came forward (to the media and to this site as well) to say that the young men were never part of their group. Most of the kids who'd been in the group had already graduated before the shootings. They said the shooters were friends of Chris Morris, a Trench Coater who had attended Columbine previously. Their claims were later corroberated by independent in-depth probes by news organizations such as the Pulitzer-winning Denver Post.'

Norwegian wrote:

Anyways, besides the point. The point is that we know by now that not every news outlet that came out after this is accurate. Thats why one should never take statements at face value.

Norwegian wrote:

nd one has to take withness accounts with caution.

If I am understanding this correctly, your argument is that Gleason is perpetuating a false myth because she's even discussing that Chuck Phillips, Joe Stair, Robert Perry, Brian Sargent, Marla Foust, Alex Marsh, and Robyn Anderson- TCM members- said that Eric and Dylan were TCM because we can't trust witness statements fully.

And your proof that these particular witness statements are untrue is to say that other witnesses disagreed with them and a nationally respected news organization says the latter group is right? This seems to be a rather contradictory stance to take.

I suspect that it does, given that this has been so videly debunked by major news outlets, yes. People tend to believe what they want to believe. If someone says that climate change isnt real they Will also go at Great to proove that its not real. Even if it is. And thats a clear example of confirmation bias. They cherry pick sources that confirm their point of view. Nobody likes it when they are wrong. But aknowledging failures and mishaps and that there is mis-information out there to check these sources and other sources of information is the only way to move forward. And its true that even friends of Eric and Dylan Could be wrong. So than we have to meassure the possibility that even people that slightly interacted with them Could be wrong

So friends of Eric and Dylan who actually went to Columbine, knew them and spend time with them, were actual members of TCM, might be wrong, but major news outlets who allegedly debunked this definitely know better?
Not to mention Eric and Dylan themselves, who apparently told their family members about being in TCM (Eric's father) and made personal school projects under the title of TCM, apparently also knew nothing.

Ligeya wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

thelmar wrote:

Norwegian wrote:

'Right after the shootings and again in late 1999 several TCM members came forward (to the media and to this site as well) to say that the young men were never part of their group. Most of the kids who'd been in the group had already graduated before the shootings. They said the shooters were friends of Chris Morris, a Trench Coater who had attended Columbine previously. Their claims were later corroberated by independent in-depth probes by news organizations such as the Pulitzer-winning Denver Post.'

Norwegian wrote:

Anyways, besides the point. The point is that we know by now that not every news outlet that came out after this is accurate. Thats why one should never take statements at face value.

Norwegian wrote:

nd one has to take withness accounts with caution.

If I am understanding this correctly, your argument is that Gleason is perpetuating a false myth because she's even discussing that Chuck Phillips, Joe Stair, Robert Perry, Brian Sargent, Marla Foust, Alex Marsh, and Robyn Anderson- TCM members- said that Eric and Dylan were TCM because we can't trust witness statements fully.

And your proof that these particular witness statements are untrue is to say that other witnesses disagreed with them and a nationally respected news organization says the latter group is right? This seems to be a rather contradictory stance to take.

I suspect that it does, given that this has been so videly debunked by major news outlets, yes.  People tend to believe what they want to believe. If someone says that climate change isnt real they Will also go at Great to proove that its not real. Even if it is. And thats a clear example of confirmation bias. They cherry pick sources that confirm their point of view. Nobody likes it when they are wrong. But aknowledging failures and mishaps and that there is mis-information out there to check these sources and other sources of information is the only way to move forward. And its true that even friends of Eric and Dylan Could be wrong. So than we have to meassure the possibility that even people that slightly interacted with them Could be wrong

So friends of Eric and Dylan who actually went to Columbine, knew them and spend time with them, were actual members of TCM, might be wrong, but major news outlets who allegedly debunked this definitely know better?
Not to mention Eric and Dylan themselves, who apparently told their family members about being in TCM (Eric's father) and made personal school projects under the title of TCM, apparently also knew nothing.

Yes, friends of Eric and Dylan Could indeed be wrong about stuff related to them. And no, making a video that says TCM with Eric and Dylan as actors isnt evidence

Ligeya wrote:

I really don't understand how it's easier to believe someone was bullied to the point of breaking and commiting terrible crime. Easier than what?
It's a horrific thought.

Easier to believe they were anti heroes rising up against their tormentors (bullying, effectively justified) or that they simply snapped for 15 minutes (mental illness, effectively insanity) than to believe teenagers are capable of deciding to murder.