What do you think that exactly caused Columbine?

Mj2beat wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

It doesn't matter who came up with the idea.

It is obvious that Eric was consumed with obsessive homicidal fantasies, and this was the cause of Columbine.  It is the only factor that IS present in Columbine but NOT present in other high schools.

Bullying, alienation, depression, etc. happen at every high school every day.

And how do you think that those homicidal fantasies started in Eric and other mass murderers?

I would like to know your theory in that part of the subject

Not much is known about why people become possessed by these fantasies. I think it's probably a personality disorder of some kind, but the people who have it cannot escape it.

Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez. Eric Harris was afflicted with intense homicidal fantasies that he felt deeply compelled to act upon. He daydreamed about murder all the time. He belongs in the category of serial killers of strangers, not of bullied children lashing out. Eric did not kill any bullies for revenge, he killed strangers for thrills.

A person with intense homicidal fantasies will kill without being bullied, rejected, etc., but someone who is bullied, rejected will NOT kill huge numbers of strangers without homicidal ideation.

Therefore, Eric's intense homicidal ideation is really the only cause.

lasttrain wrote:

Mj2beat wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

It doesn't matter who came up with the idea.

It is obvious that Eric was consumed with obsessive homicidal fantasies, and this was the cause of Columbine.  It is the only factor that IS present in Columbine but NOT present in other high schools.

Bullying, alienation, depression, etc. happen at every high school every day.

And how do you think that those homicidal fantasies started in Eric and other mass murderers?

I would like to know your theory in that part of the subject

Not much is known about why people become possessed by these fantasies.  I think it's probably a personality disorder of some kind, but the people who have it cannot escape it.

Jack the Ripper, Ted Bundy, Richard Ramirez.  Eric Harris was afflicted with intense homicidal fantasies that he felt deeply compelled to act upon.  He daydreamed about murder all the time.  He belongs in the category of serial killers of strangers, not of bullied children lashing out.  Eric did not kill any bullies for revenge, he killed strangers for thrills.

A person with intense homicidal fantasies will kill without being bullied, rejected, etc., but someone who is bullied, rejected will NOT kill huge numbers of strangers without homicidal ideation.

Therefore, Eric's intense homicidal ideation is really the only cause.

Right, but not all the people with homicidal ideation or psychopathy kill people, because some people have that in their genes and no kill anyone and other ones can developed it later in their lives for some accident or trauma and do it. The killers are a product of their environment so several traumas started their fantasies most of the times. Inappropriate family environment, sexual abuse, destructive and self-destructive behaviors from parents, a poor social experience, social rejection, bullying and several other problems made worse their condition. Ted Bundy was adopted by his grandparents and grew up believing that his mother was his sister, Richard Ramirez suffered in his childhood several head injuries and psychopathy is an integration of brain abnormalities product of head injures sometimes what could affected him with other personal traumas like presence the murder of his cousin's wife and the influence of his cousin with army stuff. Eric Harris childhood in several cities and being always the new kid could made him felt apart from everyone and never able to fit in. All that could affected their lives to a serious level. So in general is known why people become possessed with those fantasies in their heads and what made them murderers, that is in most or all the cases something neurological with personal experiences.

Are you a Cullen fan Mark ?

Mark wrote:

Maybe it's just me but personally I think Eric and Dylan were just whiny little brats who had it a lot better than most people but didn't appreciate a damn thing. Bitching and crying because someone picked on them in gym class (like they didn't pick on people as well). How many times did these clowns actually get beat down or have someone threaten to kill them? Their bullying was mild compared to some that I've seen/read about.

It puzzles me that people believe that Eric and Dylan were totally willing to give up their lives at incredibly young ages for nothing at all. Like it was the easiest and simplest thing in the world for them to do. Almost natural to them. I will never understand this line of thinking.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Are you a Cullen fan Mark ?

Not at all. I said I think they are BOTH whiny, ungrateful little brats. Not just Eric.

PaintItBlack wrote:

It puzzles me that people believe that Eric and Dylan were totally willing to give up their lives at incredibly young ages for nothing at all. Like it was the easiest and simplest thing in the world for them to do. Almost natural to them. I will never understand this line of thinking.

I am not sure if the people exactly believe that, I can see that what they mean is that Eric and Dylan just had a mental illness but as I pointed out before. Is not so simple, is not that they planned that because they didnt take their medicines like the college classmates of my best friend claimed a few days ago. There is always something personal behind killers's actions but many people not read about what could make someone a killer and if they didnt experienced some personal trauma either. They will believe that is only mental illness or another thing when they dont even know how it could started and experts have made researchers about it and have talked about it.

Something I haven't seen discussed in detail is their upbringing. Not as in abusive parents, mistreated and beaten, traumatized throughout childhood. But just in general.

Parents have different parenting styles. Even one couple raising multiple children will have different parenting styles with each child. And each child responds differently. Some of that is innate personality, some to do specifically with the way they are being raised.

I was good friends with a girl who had 3 children. The oldest 2 were boys, the youngest was a girl. The kids were all a year apart. The oldest got special treatment from Mom because he was her firstborn. The youngest got special treatment from Dad because she was the only girl. The middle child got borderline neglected, so far as attention went, and because of it was wild and obnoxious, always acting out and being a pain in the ass - because both Mom and Dad paid attention to him when he did so.

If Mr. Harris was more bonded with his older son, for whatever reason, and Mrs. Harris bonded more with Eric, and Mrs. Harris had the weaker personality - so to speak - it stands to make sense that Eric would be weaker emotionally than his brother and so not be able to handle the emotional trauma of moving as easily.

This is purely hypothetical, of course. But I have noted that many parents indulge their children to the point that they are then unable to cope with anything that does not go their way, and act out in response. I noted something similar when reading Elliot Rodger's autobiographic manifesto or whatever it was. He talked about becoming hysterical, throwing temper tantrums, whatever you call it, at the age of 8 or 9. And then his parents indulged him until he stopped. Folks, I have an 8-year-old. If he threw a temper tantrum, I would toss him in his room and tell him to come out when he gets the hell over it. I have said something previously on another thread about "coping skills" and how kids in general, never mind mass murderers, don't seem to have them. Well, if you don't have the skills to cope with normal everyday things (Eric flipping out when the girl hit Dylan's car, Dylan allegedly hitting a coworker when she got on to him at work), you sure as hell are not going to be able to cope with frequent rejection by romantic possibilities, constant bullying and inattention from your peers, etc.

This is no way negates the other possibilities as to what caused Columbine. But I think it could certainly play in to it.

You can point to any causes you want--Bundy's confusion about his childhood, Richard Ramirez's injuries, Eric's childhood.

The fact is, millions of kids suffer these things. So few kill. So the killing fantasy is the only real cause.

A wolf kills a doe in the forest. Did the doe cause it by standing there?

lasttrain wrote:

You can point to any causes you want--Bundy's confusion about his childhood, Richard Ramirez's injuries, Eric's childhood.

The fact is, millions of kids suffer these things.  So few kill.  So the killing fantasy is the only real cause.

A wolf kills a doe in the forest.  Did the doe cause it by standing there?

And how do you think that those killing fantasy start?

Psychopathy and schizophrenia, can be inherited just like cancer or alcoholism. In addition, some children seem to be born with lower levels of interpersonal connectivity. They seem to be born with less empathy for that reason. But it doesnt mean that a child is born "evil", certain predispositions may be inherited, but our family and society influence too. Children with that can be raised in a good family like Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold and most of them not become violent, but if the children experience a trauma in his home or outside like also can happen with the ones raised in a good family. Something that was closed, can open inside of them and they will become "monsters".

Thats why not all the people with antisocial disorder, kill someone and all the people with traumas kill someone. Just like also the ones with killing fantasies.

Of course, we don't know if Eric and Dylan and those other murderers, had a inherited disorder or if they had one at all that developed later in their lives (since that is possible too), but could be in some cases and whatever it was. It shows why not all the people with traumas kill other people.

With all due respect lasttrain,if you had had the school experiences some of us on this board have  had,you might have a different perspective on all this.I was once where E &D was and I know it was not caused by me having "killing fantasies" to start out with.I was driven there over the years by my classmates, the school administrators and the school environment overall.

I think Columbine was caused as a product of the worst in society. You've got two kids who can't live up to the expectations some set for them, with constant rejection at their heels, whose interests label them apart from others their age - not to mention budding rage, lack of coping skills, and possible mental illnesses. You have parents who didn't bother to keep these two apart even after the January Incident of 1998, and never searched their rooms. You have friends and faculty and police who never took signs of the attack seriously. A huge, huge coincidence of warning signs being glanced over or causing heads to turn the other way; a tornado of circumstances and chances that led to two boys coming together and deciding that this was their fate, this was how they were going to leave an indelible imprint on human history. And even more chance that they managed to do it.

How someone can says that Columbine was caused because of sadism ?

Tell me one sadist serial killer who was suicidal :-)



Do you know what says Elliot Rodger in his manifesto ?



" I am not part of the human race. Humanity has rejected me. The females of the human species have never wanted to mate with me, so how could I possibly consider myself part of humanity? Humanity has never accepted me among them, and now I know why. I am more than human. I am superior to them all.
I am Elliot Rodger…"




"If you feel as if the whole world is against you, it makes it easier to start attacking random individuals – and then kill yourself.
Dr Lankford is professor of criminal justice studies at the University of Alabama"



Eric Harris "EVERYONE IS MAKING FUN OF ME" , He says EVERYONE - Yes he was bullied and bullying creates social anxiety = social anxiety makes you paranoid ...


Bree Pasquale "It was all because people were mean to them last year"


And i do not get people who believe that everything in Eric's diary is the truth .. He wrote it only for "efect" , he wanted look "badass"


For example " “I want to kill everyone except about 5 people.”"

"there are probably about 100 people max in the school alone
who I don’t want to die, the rest, MUST FUCKING DIE!”"


Eric got what he wanted ... he fooled everoyne with his diary , he wanted look like "powerfull rebel without emphaty"


REAL Eric Harris was probably shaking suicidal kid , who hated himself, who felt rejected.


I think moving to Denver was the big factor in his life ... "I wanna kill everyone in Denver"


He hated this place ..



HE WAS NOT A PSYCHOPATH

-He cared for animals
-He blamed himself "dont blame friends"
- Tell me one psychopath who commited a suicide
- One girl called him to go hangoug , he declined it because his parents were not at home and he did not wanted make them angry
-He was crying on one tape

Are you saying that E &D's parents were neglectful?

Arendelle wrote:

I think Columbine was caused as a product of the worst in society. You've got two kids who can't live up to the expectations some set for them, with constant rejection at their heels, whose interests label them apart from others their age - not to mention budding rage, lack of coping skills, and possible mental illnesses. You have parents who didn't bother to keep these two apart even after the January Incident of 1998, and never searched their rooms. You have friends and faculty and police who never took signs of the attack seriously. A huge, huge coincidence of warning signs being glanced over or causing heads to turn the other way; a tornado of circumstances and chances that led to two boys coming together and deciding that this was their fate, this was how they were going to leave an indelible imprint on human history. And even more chance that they managed to do it.

No, I wasn't trying to imply they were neglectful, just that they didn't keep E & D apart after getting into a criminal act together and that their rooms weren't searched. If anyone was neglectful it was the police. But not the parents; they couldn't have seen this coming unless they got ahold of the boy's notebooks or seen their weapons.

It would have taken some drastic measures to break up E &D's friendship at that time. They went to school together,worked together,were old enough to drive.Should their parents have done that knowing what they knew at the time?

The parents also committed mistakes like not be enough close to them to knew what was going on, the same with the search of the rooms. But many parents are like that, they dont see a reason to search the room of their teenage boy, if they dont start to suspect that something weird is going on (there are exceptions but are very few) and Eric and Dylan could hide everything very well and they didnt make their parents to suspect anything, Eric's father did a bit more and knew more about what he had in home but is probable that he didnt feel the need to search Eric's room because he could thought that his behaviour was normal or not something very serious. Parents just dont think that they are gonna find guns in their kids rooms and less at that time. Eric and Dylan fooled them like they did with everyone and even if their parents kept them apart , they would still hang out together anyway because teenagers are very rebel and dont care.

Exactly; even if they had attempted to do so, I don't think Eric and Dylan could really be kept apart. For example, I'd gotten into theft last year with a friend; we eventually went to juvenile court together. My parents wanted me to be kept apart from this guy, but we had several classes together, so it was nigh impossible to restrict contact between each other (though we're only Sophomores). Of course, once I became homeschooled, that's a different story...

But anyhow. Unless Tom, Sue, Wayne, and Kathy all got together and decided to severely curb their children's actions (which I don't see occurring, esp. since the Klebold's seemed to be very liberal-type parents), to the point where E&D were under heavy monitoring...despite my suggestion earlier, I doubt they'd stay apart. Those two were conjoined at the hip.

columbine22 wrote:

HE WAS NOT A PSYCHOPATH

-He cared for animals
-He blamed himself "dont blame friends"
- Tell me one psychopath who commited a  suicide
- One girl called him to go hangoug , he declined it because his parents were not at home and he  did not wanted  make them angry
-He was crying on one tape

None of Hare, Fuselier, Langmann, or Cullen claim that psychopathy precludes all other affects in all situations.

Cullen: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

In his account of Eric's childhood, Cullen describes "A sports enthusiast hanging out with minorities" (p. 112), who is "painfully shy," "timid but popular," (p. 113), "treasured his own tranquility" and "serenity" (p. 114) and "loved the water" (p. 115). He is not "thrilled with his looks" but "attended football games, , dances, and variety shows" and is a "big time fan" of sports. Cullen argues that "two months into high school" Eric begins "breaking through his shell" (p. 134) and while "Sophomore year, the changes began to show" (p. 146), even in the days before the massacre he is "nice" to Susan (p. 118) and shows other good traits, apologizing to the Black Jack crew and lamenting how much me will miss Bob, his boss (p. 332).

columbine22 wrote:

HE WAS NOT A PSYCHOPATH

-He cared for animals
-He blamed himself "dont blame friends"
- Tell me one psychopath who commited a  suicide
- One girl called him to go hangoug , he declined it because his parents were not at home and he  did not wanted  make them angry
-He was crying on one tape

None of Hare, Fuselier, Langmann, or Cullen claim that psychopathy precludes all other affects in all situations.

Cullen: "Researchers often compare psychopaths to robots or rogue computers...That's the closest approximation of their behavior, but the metaphor lacks nuance. Psychopaths feel something; Eric seemed to show sadness when his dog was sick, and he occasionally felt twinges of regret toward humans." (p. 242-243).

In his  account of Eric's childhood, Cullen describes "A sports enthusiast hanging out with minorities" (p. 112), who is "painfully shy," "timid but popular," (p. 113), "treasured his own tranquility" and "serenity" (p. 114) and "loved the water" (p. 115). He is not "thrilled with his looks" but "attended football games, , dances, and variety shows" and is a "big time fan" of sports. Cullen argues that "two months into high school" Eric begins "breaking through his shell" (p. 134) and while "Sophomore year, the changes began to show" (p. 146), even in the days before the massacre he is "nice" to Susan (p. 118) and shows other good traits, apologizing to the Black Jack crew and lamenting how much me will miss Bob, his boss (p. 332).

It's complex and I have answered that many factors play into why Columbine happened...Such as had they been to another school or landed in good situations would they be okay? The thing is, is there a clear difference between Eric and Dylan's disorders? Such as for Dylan, I think it is hereditary, I know his mother Sue has some issues of her own, she admitted it herself in her book and I think even Jeff Kass too so, Dylan might've gotten some of his mental instability through her. I don't know if Eric's parents have any problems of their own and there's no way we will but for Eric, he always saw red, anger problems perhaps, possibly his upbringing, after which taking medication might've added more fuel to the fire, but Eric was nothing like Dylan. Now, I think both of them had a pretty good and average life. I don't think they had been abused in any way at all.

So in a way, Dylan was actually slightly mentally unstable as compared to Eric who, had a poor tolerance of his problems/failure/anger?

It's like a venn diagram and their years in Columbine is the big main circle while Eric and Dylan's own issues are the two separate ones and then combined which resulted in murder/suicide.

I'm still very confused and amazed at the fact that the parents of a teenage boy ticked "suicidal thoughts" knowing that boys at that age, especially Eric, try to avoid showing emotions. I'm just imagining him throwing fits: crying and threatening suicide because else I can't understand how that could happen. In my opinion we barely have anything regarding their personalities and happenings in their daily lives. Just quotes here and there, very small in number. A page of a few 'accounts' don't picture a person as a whole. I love it when people fall for some 'accounts' especially on Tumblr. Had some people completely eat up some stories 'a girl' who says she talked to them and said especially Dylan talked about 'love and society'. I mean come on, everyone talks about these things, GIVE US SPECIFIC INTERACTIONS, not general bullshit. (/rant over).

Even though Eric gave a tough man impression I can't help but think he was openly suicidal to some people and it's sad we don't have much info about this probable part of him. I somewhat believe the accounts of the girl who went out (don't remember her name) with him and said she had to talk him out of suicide.

And no, unlike some, I don't blame his parents for not reacting to his behavior because I lived with a troubled person and you're put in an incredibly difficult position, especially concerning a family member. It's easy to point fingers when the rabbit's out of the hat but trust me, when you're cloaked in uncertainty and can't possibly imagine that person could do bad things on such a massive scale, you've no idea what could happen next. You're confronted with choosing between taking action and end up like an overreacting freak who could ruin that persons' or your future in many ways (socially, economically) or hoping that it's not that bad, try to work it out and having that blow up in your face.


Edit: It's completely off-topic but man stuff like this makes me mad. It wasn't goddamn Dylan who went 'la da da" around the end of the Dykeman Morning Ride, it was most likely Nate or someone else, jesus christ I want to punch a baby right now cause even respected Columbine blogs fall for it. I know people on here don't make these silly confusions but I had to release some steam somewhere. Pls don't ban me ;^)

Magnaphoria wrote:

I'm still very confused and amazed at the fact that the parents of a teenage boy ticked "suicidal thoughts" knowing that boys at that age, especially Eric, try to avoid showing emotions. I'm just imagining him throwing fits: crying and threatening suicide because else I can't understand how that could happen. In my opinion we barely have anything regarding their personalities and happenings in their daily lives. Just quotes here and there, very small in number. A page of a few 'accounts' don't picture a person as a whole. I love it when people fall for some 'accounts' especially on Tumblr. Had some people completely eat up some stories 'a girl' who says she talked to them and said especially Dylan talked about 'love and society'. I mean come on, everyone talks about these things, GIVE US SPECIFIC INTERACTIONS, not general bullshit. (/rant over).

Even though Eric gave a tough man impression I can't help but think he was openly suicidal to some people and it's sad we don't have much info about this probable part of him. I somewhat believe the accounts of the girl who went out (don't remember her name) with him and said she had to talk him out of suicide.

On page 17 you can see that Eric's parents were able to indicate the items on the psychological checklist because he mentioned them to the psychologist he saw after the van incident. They said that this is what led to him being prescribed antidepressants.

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I don't get the impression that Eric discussed his feelings with his parents very often and he doesn't seem like the type to have had crying fits or threaten suicide, especially in front of his parents.

I believe Eric's parents were at least aware of his anger issues. And the main reason I think that is b/c of Sue mentioning him freaking out at Dylan after that soccer game, and how his parents were quick to react and knew how to calm him down. And he was like 15 then. So I think they probably saw this more than once prior to that, if not somewhat often.

I know when they met with the Mausers they claimed the only time they recalled Eric reacting violently in front of them was when he slammed his fist into a wall, but I honestly feel like they saw much more than just that and were aware that he had a short fuse. This doesn't mean I blame them at all for what Eric did, more than likely they chalked it up to teenage hormones and figured he'd grow out of it. People back then didn't think their kid's anger issues would result in mass murder.

Another thing, and I know everyone particularly the media likes to blame the music, movies and video games for violence among teenagers, but I feel that Dylan was actually deeply influenced by his preferences in the pop culture of that time. His obsession with Natural Born Killers, emulating Mickey and wanting his own Mallory-esque partner to go on a killing spree with. He mentioned in his journals something about girls he was attracted to being "pure"... I don't remember how it's written exactly off the top of my head, but some people seemed confused by what that meant. Sometimes I wonder if that was influenced by Nine Inch Nails lyrics. Several of their songs make reference to "purity" or being "pure/impure", and it's possible he identified with it or like the way it sounded when describing things in his own writing. Shooting his gun sideways like all the badasses in the movies... I've thought of other examples to support this opinion but I can't think of them right now.

Even though columbine happened nearly 20 years ago and that E&D would be in their mid 30s now, I still forget that they were just teenagers when they did this.

Mj2beat wrote:

Ive seen lots of opinions in this board about the massacre and Eric and Dylan personalities and problems but I would like to know what you guys think that caused everything?

The problem I have with insiders' accounts of the tragedy is that these supposed "insiders" tend to project their own biases and life experiences onto the killers and the school. That's a common logical fallacy. But I don't necessarily blame the insiders. Eric and Dylan were very secretive people, and I doubt insiders had the ability interpret what they were seeing.

Having said that, I think there might be no single cause for Columbine. I know it's not too difficult to believe, but it's difficult to conceptualize in our own minds. We often want to see pretty patterns and cause and effect tables. But the truth is much, much more incongruent, disoriented.

Eric and Dylan were not insane, nor were they disturbed. If I could blame psychosis and violent video games, I don't think this forum could survive for very long. I think the best question to ask is, "How?" I think how gets us closer to understanding and closure.

columbine22 wrote:

How someone can says that Columbine was caused because  of sadism ?

Tell me one sadist serial killer who was suicidal  

Although it's not common for serial killers to feel suicidal, there are a few who have committed suicide while in police custody or in the process of being transferred to a high-security prison. Although it's impossible to say why serial killers sometimes commit suicide, I believe frustration and anger play a larger role than empathy or remorse. For example, Israel Keyes slit his wrists. Why did he do this? Because he was in a position where he could no longer stimulate his awful desires.

I see that many are still saying that Eric for example had actually shown his true Colours to people many times and people never took it seriously. So is it safe to say their surrounding caused it?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I agree they weren't insane but it's almost undeniable that Dylan was depressed and his time in Columbine made things worse.

jettfyre80 wrote:

I think both boys suffered from childhood trauma, especially Eric. I wonder if he was molested when his father was in the military. Rape and molestation are common on bases and the Harrises seem very secretive about their life. Maybe they tried to cover something up and that's why they over indulged Eric. Childhood trauma can cause rage and anxiety that lasts for years. Both boys were very disconnected from reality. I think Dylan dealt with something from childhood but to a lesser degree. Brooks Brown mentioned in his book that Dylan would have these major meltdowns over what seemed like minor things when he was a kid. That anxiety had to come from somewhere.

A myriad of multiple things. Mental Illness I don't think caused this, just a convenient excuse/scapegoat to explain away this tragedy. Self loathing and warped perceptions. Perhaps some personality disorder issues (mainly Eric).

I believe just from what I have read of Eric to include but not limited to his journals, the moving, sexual frustrations, a desire to be higher social ladder have all influenced his negative and warped perception of the world. Short sighted (ironic given his attention to planning and detail) view of life. I think it all fueled his hatred of life but I don't think he was as suicidal as Dylan. I don't think he was a sociopath or a pyscho (he had feelings, sorrow and regret albeit overshadowed by his burning hatred). The DSM IV of that time period would not have allowed to diagnose either as psychopaths/sociopaths (ages and at least history wasn't long enough). This I also believe is why the body count wasn't as high as it could have been (disregarding the failed bombs). The "quiet" period after the library shootings indicates to me that neither had any real motivation to continue to indiscriminately kill further. Despite the hooting and hollering at that point it became 'self' motivation that was quickly sapping. Neither used knives (stabbing is real personal in respect to guns and bombs) which further raises the question to the accusations of psychopathy/sociopathy. Although I do agree they had diminished states of mind or some Dunning-Kruger type effect. I honestly in the case of Eric or wishful thinking, believe when he reached that point in the library where he knew surrender wasn't an option, he regretted his piss poor choices.

I am drawn more to Eric as I feel he gets the worse wrap of the two because he was more honest with who he was. He definitely cried for help even if he wouldn't have admitted to it.

Imperator wrote:

I am drawn more to Eric as I feel he gets the worse wrap of the two because he was more honest with who he was. He definitely cried for help even if he wouldn't have admitted to it.

You, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I think we might get along.

Thanks!

Anger. Hatred for the school. Infamy. Jealousy of others. Severe depression and hopelessness. Part of the reason I don't agree with them leading normal lives even if they didn't choose to go through with it was because their core beliefs have already been formed which consisted of anger/hatred for normalcy. They didn't like people telling them what to do and didn't like how the social ladder worked in America. Not all the time but in most cases, if you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 17/18, you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 30. Your interests will change but your core beliefs typically don't.

There will never be a singular answer to this question, and I think that's what this thread was trying to get at. if we could put it on ONE reason what would it be? It's impossible cause many factors play into Columbine. Even if we could narrow it down, it would be between their mental issues, and the pressuring teenage/school life in the 90s-Columbine.

In terms of their beliefs, how soon did your views change once you age past your teens? Don't teenagers often think they know it all until they're experiencing adult life when real issues come into play?

Certain beliefs are difficult to change because that's what makes you, you. What we go through and how we see the world shapes our core beliefs. Lets say for instance one of my core beliefs was guns give me and people power, it would be very difficult for anybody to change this belief of mine. I have no doubt one of Eric's core beliefs was guns give people power. This belief isn't necessarily something that will just die just because he gets older, more often than not, it gets stronger the older we get.

Sane One wrote:

Certain beliefs are difficult to change because that's what makes you, you. What we go through and how we see the world shapes our core beliefs. Lets say for instance one of my core beliefs was guns give me and people power, it would be very difficult for anybody to change this belief of mine. I have no doubt one of Eric's core beliefs was guns give people power. This belief isn't necessarily something that will just die just because he gets older, more often than not, it gets stronger the older we get.

I think I get what you mean. If you're fixated on looking at things a certain way then yeah it will sure influence other issues as you grow older, and it will determine how you look at life, what you choose. I guess I get it. Kinda like if you're gonna be a democrat or a republican.

Sane One wrote:

. Not all the time but in most cases, if you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 17/18, you're screaming F THE POLICE at age 30. Your interests will change but your core beliefs typically don't.

That also depends on upbringing. Mid to upper class adolescence going Malibu's Most Wanted screaming F the Police likely won't be doing it at 30. If at 30 someone is saying F the police it's likely because at 7 they were being taught to F the police.

The main cause of Columbine was Eric's fantasy of creating a huge fireball of destruction that would stun the world.

Yes, Dylan had a fantasy of going on a spree with a girl but that is not what he ended up doing. It was Eric's fantasy they enacted.

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

lasttrain wrote:

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

Likewise if Eric never met Dylan who was all suicidal Columbine would not have happened.

Imperator wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

Likewise if Eric never met Dylan who was all suicidal Columbine would not have happened.  

Correct, but suicidal kids meet each other all the time and Columbine does not happen.

When looking for a cause you have to find the thing in Columbine that is not present in all other cases.

And in Columbine that is that one of the students involved had a consuming obsession with committing an act of terrorism at a national scale. Without that, it's a suicide that barely makes the local news.

lasttrain wrote:

The main cause of Columbine was Eric's fantasy of creating a huge fireball of destruction that would stun the world.

Yes, Dylan had a fantasy of going on a spree with a girl but that is not what he ended up doing. It was Eric's fantasy they enacted.

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

They acted out Dylan's fantasy as well. Maybe his fantasy would have been more complete if Eric had been willing to put on a long, blonde wig but I guess Eric had some limits after all.

lasttrain wrote:

Imperator wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Without Eric's very specific fantasy and his obsessive commitment to it Columbine would not have happened.

Likewise if Eric never met Dylan who was all suicidal Columbine would not have happened.  

Correct, but suicidal kids meet each other all the time and Columbine does not happen.

When looking for a cause you have to find the thing in Columbine that is not present in all other cases.

And in Columbine that is that one of the students involved had a consuming obsession with committing an act of terrorism at a national scale. Without that, it's a suicide that barely makes the local news.

Not all suicidal kids have NBK fantasies.

The boys weren't isolated. Were not rejected. They were traumatized and abused. Their behavior was constantly judged whilst others that were harming them physically were allowed to get away with it. People enjoyed their suffering and they knew it. They wanted to kill themselves because their reality was nothing but pain, seeing it, feeling it, wanting to give it. So they figured their minds were destroyed and wanted to die. This was a way to get revenge on whatever they blamed for themselves losing their minds as they did die.

Also, I don't think that they felt love for anything.

Abuse puts a horrible feeling inside of you that doesn't go away. It fuels the rage. If you can make it go away somehow, then good for you. But good luck with that. That's why people do all this bizarre shit and drugs. The feeling. Call it, Feeling X.

abuse, punish, traumatize = feeling X.

Abused, punished and traumatized are some really strong words. And who exactly put Dylan and Eric through this? They had good families, like really good families. They had a lot of friends, they were intelligent and could have actually made something of themselves. They were spoiled brats is what they were. No one abused them. Another student picking on your t shirt is not abuse or being punished.

I'm actually interested in hearing about the abuse they went through cuz I've never heard about that before. Neither of them had even gotten into a physical fight in or outside of school. In fact, the police were contacted over what Eric was doing, not what someone else was doing to Eric.

Dylan was depressed and suicidal, yea that is true but it had nothing to do with someone abusing him. Some people are just mentally sick without there being some extreme reason behind it.

Jenn wrote:

Abused, punished and traumatized are some really strong words. And who exactly put Dylan and Eric through this? They had good families, like really good families. They had a lot of friends, they were intelligent and could have actually made something of themselves. They were spoiled brats is what they were. No one abused them. Another student picking on your t shirt is not abuse or being punished.

I'm actually interested in hearing about the abuse they went through cuz I've never heard about that before. Neither of them had even gotten into a physical fight in or outside of school. In fact, the police were contacted over what Eric was doing, not what someone else was doing to Eric.

Dylan was depressed and suicidal, yea that is true but it had nothing to do with someone abusing him. Some people are just mentally sick without there being some extreme reason behind it.

Abuse:

watch?v=XI0HngZYVps
[Lost Boys Part 3]
[at 1:05 chris morris explains some abuse]

watch?v=AZix8_7f_lY
[Columbine - Brooks Brown describes bullying at Columbine]
[Brooks Brown explains some of it]

(Add those urls to the end of YTs url)

Sue Klebold pushed Dylan against the fridge once and got physical with him.

Traumatize:
Eric said prison was the most traumatizing experience of his life and Dylan said it branded him a criminal for life.
I don't know if they were at family funerals, but that would traumatize someone.
Dylan and Eric were watching Gore and serial killers online, and BDSM, which is traumatizing.

Punishments:
Eric and Dylan were blamed for hacking the school system using a teacher's password, with no evidence they were punished for it. They were also punished for the notes in the lockers, with no hard evidence. Punished for breaking into the van. Punished for breaking Brooks Brown's car windshield. Punished for misrepresenting that he was taking luvox on his marine application, although there is some speculation as to if he knew he was rejected by the military or not. Punished by Gardener when he was alerted by police that Eric threatened to kill Brooks Brown. They were judging his behavior when he got angry and were scared, so they were plotting to either put him in jail or scare him or something. Maybe he "deserved" it but to him it was all unfair.

I'm sure more can be added to this.
Also Eric was known for being in grade 12(i think?) and being interested in the freshman girls that were a lot younger, giving one girl his email and asking her if she would talk to him online, but she said she wasn't allowed on the internet unless her parents were supervising. (which is a smart thing, and shows how young she really was). So there is that, some people might find that a little odd, as her father did. There were girls in the school who thought Eric and Dylan were hot because they looked like bad boys heh. Teens keep things secret too, so we will never know the true extent of what the two went through in their lives, they were hanging around a pretty rough crowd who had a lot of anger themselves, and who knows what kind of things went on.

As far as being punished for the van incident goes, I feel like they knew it was wrong and they were aware that their actions would result in punishment if they got caught. I don't think they were so dense or mentally innocent or whatever that they were oblivious to any sort of consequences to their actions. They knew better, so I don't feel sorry for them at all for that one.

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Lol, prison? Eric was never in prison. Dylan and Eric were arrested (which was their own fault) and they were taken to the county police station where they were held until they were finished being booked, you know, for theft? And then they were picked up by their parents. Being that they never had any kind of legal trouble before, they didn't even have to wait for a judge to set a bail for them. They were released into their parents custody within a few hours after they were arrested. They didn't even go to jail let alone prison. And their "punishment" for breaking into someone else's property was to send the owner of the van a letter of apology and do some community service. And with that program, they wouldn't even have a criminal record when it was all said and done. They were lucky and got off easy.

And his Mother getting physical with him. Oh, come on now. That's is a bit of stretch and I'd hardly call that physical. She was upset because he was treating her like shit. She didn't slam him or punch him and he was a lot bigger than her anyway. He should have some respect for his Mother, which obviously he didn't. I mean he ruined her life in the end.

What does Eric being interested in younger girls have to do with anything? Freshmen girls date Senior guys all the time. What, because he was turned down by girls? Well that is apart of life. You're never going to get everything you want when you want it.

It is still judging their behavior and putting material possessions above the well being of a humans life. Humiliating them and so on. They didn't believe in those laws, so the effects of being punished for doing something like that isn't what it would be for someone who supports those laws. All that stuff they went through is still scary and humiliating and degrading.

What his mother did is still physical abuse. Regardless. He told people he hated his parents and so did Eric.

Some feel he was too old to hang out with young girls.