Guys want girls

Reading about the abuse meted out by Rocky and his buddies reminds me that, when it comes down to it, everything in life boils down to power - and, as Oscar Wilde said, power boils down to fucking.

Every social group has some kind of a hierarchy - there always is, always has been, and always will be a High, a Middle, and a Low. Some groups are higher on the totem pole than others - the High in one group might be lower in absolute terms than the Low in another group - but every group has its leaders, its followers, and its outcasts.

We often think of the High at Columbine as a bunch of ultra-privileged teenybopper pricks who had it all and couldn't stop rubbing it in to those who were less fortunate ... but maybe they had more in common with the Low than we realize.

More and more, it seems that Rocky was driven by insecurity - he felt an incessant need to humiliate other boys in front of girls to make himself look better. He wasn't going after boys, per se - he was trying to make other boys look bad in front of girls. This was his way of showing off to the girls - "Look at me! I've exposed this guy that you're with as the total pussy faggot that I always thought he was! Now open your legs for me, bitch!"

A confident man doesn't feel the need to humiliate other men - he focuses directly on the woman that he wants to go after. If he's sufficiently alpha and/or enterprising enough, then he snares her. But he deals directly with the woman. If you are truly confident, then you believe that a woman will respond to you no matter who else is around you. The second you start thinking, "Maybe she's a little out of my league," you're toast.

So the question is, why did Rocky, with his wealthy daddy and his Hummer and his wrestling trophies and his football buddies and all of the privileges that came with being a rich, athletic jock at a school where rich, athletic jocks could do whatever the fuck they wanted, feel the need to keep pushing pushing pushing everyone around him? At some point, one would have expected him to let up a bit, but apparently he never did ... what was his underlying motivation? Did he have a one-inch dick? I mean, he wasn't physically attractive, but he had sufficient status to find a nice-looking girlfriend.

(Then again, he did have at least one girlfriend, and he mistreated her so badly that she broke up with him.)

We already know that Eric and Dylan, whatever differences between them, both felt terribly insecure and lacked any confidence in their ability to attract girls and to deal effectively with their romantic and sexual feelings. They couldn't get laid, quite literally, to save their lives.

But maybe, in a way, Rocky couldn't get laid enough to save everyone else from being tormented by him and his gang. Maybe Rocky did with his fists and his mouth what Eric and Dylan did with their guns and bombs - maybe all three boys were trying, in different ways, to cut everyone else down to size, to make themselves feel stronger.

Interestingly, it also seems that Rocky and his gang were widely perceived as closet cases ... like they say, the guy who relentlessly attacks others for being gay is often the same one who walks with a little swish in his own step.

LPorter101 wrote:

So the question is, why did Rocky, with his wealthy daddy and his Hummer and his wrestling trophies and his football buddies and all of the privileges that came with being a rich, athletic jock at a school where rich, athletic jocks could do whatever the fuck they wanted, feel the need to keep pushing pushing pushing everyone around him?

IMO you just answered your own question: he could do whatever the fuck he wanted, so he had fun bullying weaker kids, among other fun what-the-fuck-he-wanted things.

I'm pretty sure that had he not enjoyed it, he would not have NEEDED to do it. He was rich, athletic, good-looking (in my opinion), was popular and had popular friends... he didn't need to bully to have a high status. Had he loathed bullying, I suppose he wouldn't have been a bully at all.

lio45 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

So the question is, why did Rocky, with his wealthy daddy and his Hummer and his wrestling trophies and his football buddies and all of the privileges that came with being a rich, athletic jock at a school where rich, athletic jocks could do whatever the fuck they wanted, feel the need to keep pushing pushing pushing everyone around him?

IMO you just answered your own question: he could do whatever the fuck he wanted, so he had fun bullying weaker kids, among other fun what-the-fuck-he-wanted things.

I'm pretty sure that had he not enjoyed it, he would not have NEEDED to do it. He was rich, athletic, good-looking (in my opinion), was popular and had popular friends... he didn't need to bully to have a high status. Had he loathed bullying, I suppose he wouldn't have been a bully at all.

Well, yeah. Most people have to pretend to be nice, even when they're rather be nasty. It can be very satisfying to act like an asshole and get away with it. It's fun to be the big man on campus.

But we're not talking about some typical meathead jock who struts around and smacks a 5'2" emo freshman every now and then to show everyone who's boss. The way that Violenta describes it, there was a specific component of sexual humiliation in Rocky's behavior.

He mainly went after boys who had girls with them. He felt the need to disparage other boys' masculinity in front of girls.

This is not the same thing as going after anyone and everyone ... it's about trying to trip up other guys in the endless adolescent quest for pussy. It's a specific pattern of behavior with a specific goal.

And it stems from insecurity. Humiliating a guy is one thing; humiliating him in front of his girlfriend, or even in front of a girl who he likes, is another. You see the other guy as competition, and you want to soften him up so you can have the girls for yourself.

Supposedly Rocky and his buddies once followed a guy who was walking up the stairs with a girl.

They grabbed him and made him trip - he fell forward onto the stairs. Then Rocky said something like, "Wow, your boyfriend must have butt-fucked you pretty hard last night ... you can't even walk up the fucking stairs."

Then he turned to the girl and said, "Your boyfriend is a pussy faggot. Get a new one."

Rocky's target is the boy, but his audience is the girl. But why does he need to show off to any and every girl? What makes him so insecure?

LPorter -- as counter-intuitive as it may sound, the most logical answer to your question is: Rocky was scared that if he wasn't a bully he'd be bullied. Probably, he had been somewhere down the line. Is there any available info on his home life, siblings, early years?

Might be a good place to start.

In my personal experience (running with a tough, violent crowd as a teen) the jerkiest bully-type guys tend to either victims of hidden abuse or fearful dudes who puff up to try to avoid being targets.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter -- as counter-intuitive as it may sound, the most logical answer to your question is: Rocky was scared that if he wasn't a bully he'd be bullied. Probably, he had been somewhere down the line. Is there any available info on his home life, siblings, early years?

Might be a good place to start.

In my personal experience (running with a tough, violent crowd as a teen) the jerkiest bully-type guys tend to either victims of hidden abuse or fearful dudes who puff up to try to avoid being targets.

I read somewhere that he got his ass handed to him in a fight during the '96-'97 year ... maybe you're right.

Maybe big bad Rocky was nothing more than an overcompensating wimp. Supposedly his voice still kind of "cracked" when he got angry.

He was kicked out of not one but two schools for fighting ... dude had a chip on his shoulder. He desperately needed to prove that he was a man's man.

He also used to brag about how much money his daddy had. (Daddy Hoffschneider owned a concrete company.)

Rocky's younger brother, Dusty, reportedly was a nice guy. Dusty was shorter than Rocky, but he was no less muscular and a better athlete, to boot - he ended up playing football and wrestling at the University of Wyoming.

Maybe Rocky was such a dick to everyone cause he got a lot of name calling behind his back but couldn't always specifically target the actual people who called him.

On this topic and the other one about the class of 98 there have been people calling him unattractive, fat head and a suggestion that he may have a 1 inch pecker!

Maybe sometimes his pals would report back to him if they overheard someone bad mouthing him at a lunch break then that meant it was nerd bashing time for Rocky.

Radioactive_Clothing wrote:

Maybe Rocky was such a dick to everyone cause he got a lot of name calling behind his back but couldn't always specifically target the actual people who called him.

On this topic and the other one about the class of 98 there have been people calling him unattractive, fat head and a suggestion that he may have a 1 inch pecker!

Maybe sometimes his pals would report back to him if they overheard someone bad mouthing him at a lunch break then that meant it was nerd bashing time for Rocky.

Well, people did talk about how much they hated him ... but if that kind of talk got to him, then doesn't that make him seem even more pathetic?

If I were as rich, athletic, and "good-looking" as Rocky was in 1998, I'd be too busy having a good time with hot cheerleader chicks to care about the sniping of my social lessers. "Fuck 'em - they'll never have one-tenth as much fun as I'm having right now."

Could he not snare the cheerleader chicks to which he undoubtedly felt entitled? Were his balls as blue as any other guy's?

(Maybe I'm totally misinterpreting everything - maybe he was having a grand old time doing all of this shit. I don't know. But I still think the need to dominate others stems from a deep reservoir of self-doubt.)

The larger point I am trying to make is that Rocky is the jock version of Eric and Dylan - his insecurity led him to lash out violently. The difference is that he used his fists and his mouth. Those tools were not available to Eric and Dylan - they were too scrawny and too "marginal" to get away with shoving people around and making nasty comments.

(Or maybe not - there were reports that Dylan was something of a bully.)

Like Eric and Dylan, Rocky directed his rage outward, toward his classmates. Despite being "popular," he was probably as widely-hated as anyone at that school. And, in his own way, it's likely that he was as deeply unhappy as anyone at that school, as well.

Or maybe the whole point of all of this is that teenage boys, or at least a lot of them, are assholes. Some boys can get away with acting like assholes; others can't. Rocky could, and did. Eric and Dylan wanted to, but couldn't, and so they finally decided that the best way to unleash their assholes within was to go NBK on their classmates' asses.

Rocky likely saw his father or some other male influence bully or he initially bullied someone out of fear or jealousy & received a positive reaction & repeated the process to the point it became his character.

And then you add steroids... down to the name, this guy was the ultimate meat head jock.

I'll wager upbringing caused it & the reaction he received from bullying developed it. My God, his parents named him Rocky, gave him a Hummer, enabled him to get on roids etc.. his Mom & sister beat down a girls door & I've read quotes from his father (the original meat head).

Miracle the younger brother wasn't a meat head sociopath.

America is festered with the most pathetic system by which people are respected, but Columbine seems to be the monster of all monsters. I'll never support what E&D did, but in hindsight it is anything but surprising this happened.

I ran in the "white hat" circle in HS & thankfully my Soph-Senior years we didn't have any alpha male/meat head jock types. Quite the opposite actually, the athletes were campus leaders or just didn't get involved in immature BS.

Not sure it would have made any difference, but why couldn't have E&D at least taken their issues out on some juiced up jocks.. as an ex student athlete bullying jocks disgust me.

I wanted to say also, that he was constantly surrounded by a few guys. I and others commented that he did that so he basically had 'protection'- all the time.

I have no doubts that he was insecure inside, and it definitely showed. Back then, it seemed purely sadistic to me. Now, with hindsight, I think it was much more. I will go to my old age thinking he caused them both to basically break in 98.

Violenta wrote:

I wanted to say also, that he was constantly surrounded by a few guys. I and others commented that he did that so he basically had 'protection'- all the time.

I have no doubts that he was insecure inside, and it definitely showed. Back then, it seemed purely sadistic to me. Now, with hindsight, I think it was much more. I will go to my old age thinking he caused them both to basically break in 98.

Personally IMO I don't think Rocky knew Eric and Dylan well. He bullied half of the kids in that school. They'd all look the same to him. I've met jerks like that in high school, and they're just dick heads to everyone.

LPorter101 wrote:

Reading about the abuse meted out by Rocky and his buddies reminds me that, when it comes down to it, everything in life boils down to power - and, as Oscar Wilde said, power boils down to fucking.

That's your opinion and one I certainly do not share. In modern society money is what makes stuff tick, not sex. You get enough money and you will automatically have access to "all you can eat" sex buffet (Polansky and Woody Allen being good examples).

It doesn't work the other way around though, as the careers of numerous prostitutes will easily prove.


*tips her hat to the allmighty dollar*

Sabratha wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Reading about the abuse meted out by Rocky and his buddies reminds me that, when it comes down to it, everything in life boils down to power - and, as Oscar Wilde said, power boils down to fucking.

That's your opinion and one I certainly do not share. In modern society money is what makes stuff tick, not sex. You get enough money and you will automatically have access to "all you can eat" sex buffet (Polansky and Woody Allen being good examples).

It doesn't work the other way around though, as the careers of numerous prostitutes will easily prove.


*tips her hat to the allmighty dollar*

You're forgetting about the male ego.

Yes, one can find a woman who will open her legs for cash, but it is demeaning and humiliating to have to pay for sex. A real man doesn't have to do that.

There are lots of guys who don't care, but there are also lots of guys who want to be with a woman who honestly and truly digs them, and thus validates their masculinity. It hurts to be rejected, and to be told, "You're not good enough for me."

It feels good to be wanted, and bad not to be wanted.

It's hard for a woman to forget about the male ego. I promise.

Quote :

It hurts to be rejected, and to be told, "You're not good enough for me."

It feels good to be wanted, and bad not to be wanted.

Just to be clear, this is a human thing, not a guy thing.

But the kind of guy who thinks fucking=power and views women as a means of accomplishment is going to have a more difficult time finding a woman who is interested in him for himself. Who genuinely wants to be with a man who views you as an object?

LPorter101 wrote:

You're forgetting about the male ego.

Yes, one can find a woman who will open her legs for cash, but it is demeaning and humiliating to have to pay for sex. A real man doesn't have to do that.

Not directly, no...

But indirectly? Yep. If you're very rich and you show it, you'll likely (unless you have really major other flaws) easily find women willing to share your life with you and/or orbit around you.

ellie z wrote:

It's hard for a woman to forget about the male ego. I promise.

Quote :

It hurts to be rejected, and to be told, "You're not good enough for me."

It feels good to be wanted, and bad not to be wanted.

Just to be clear, this is a human thing, not a guy thing.

But the kind of guy who thinks fucking=power and views women as a means of accomplishment is going to have a more difficult time finding a woman who is interested in him for himself. Who genuinely wants to be with a man who views you as an object?

Well, I don't see women as objects ... but this is a nasty world. The bottom line is that your sexual and social worth are determined by the quality of the mate you can attract. This holds true for both men and women.

Women, by and large, are attracted to high-status men. High-status men might be tall, muscular, and athletic; they also might be short, pudgy, and clumsy. Money and power often trump looks.

If you see a beautiful woman with a trollish-looking guy, then you think, "He's got a shitload of money" and/or "He's the big boss of some company or something." Maybe he is; maybe he isn't. Maybe he works at McDonald's, but has a horse dick and bull balls; maybe he's unemployed, but has a sparking personality; maybe he's a valet-parking attendant, but knows how to hypnotize women. But the bottom line is that you assume that there's more going on than mere sexual attraction. You might sneer at her - "There goes yet another whore sleeping her way to the top" - but you understand and accept her motivations.

Men, by and large, are attracted to beautiful women. Women tend to seek status as an end in and of itself - sex is a tool to get more status. Men tend to seek status as a means - status is a tool to get inside hot chicks' pants. Now, men do like having status in and of itself - who doesn't want to be the alpha in any given situation? - but it is not the be-all and end-all goal for men that it is for many women. The goal for most men is pussy. Money can buy lots of fun things - fine wine, fast cars, and a villa on the Amalfi coast - but the best part is that it gets women to open up their legs.

If you see a handsome guy with a haggish-looking woman, then you think, "What the fuck is wrong with him? He must have some horrible flaw that isn't readily apparent." Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. Maybe she's the best lay he's ever had; maybe he feels a deep and abiding connection to her that feels like a gift from God; maybe she's a really good cook. But you do wonder why he can't do better. And you don't really understand it. You *might* think, "Well, he has balls, if nothing else - doesn't he know how bad being with that woman makes him look?"

There is such a thing as deep, abiding love between a 10 and a 0 - it does happen. But, by and large, you expect men and women to end up with women and men who are roughly at their level of attractiveness. You make more allowances for women - they have other things on their minds besides looks. But you do wonder what's going on when you see certain pairings.

lio45 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

You're forgetting about the male ego.

Yes, one can find a woman who will open her legs for cash, but it is demeaning and humiliating to have to pay for sex. A real man doesn't have to do that.

Not directly, no...

But indirectly? Yep. If you're very rich and you show it, you'll likely (unless you have really major other flaws) easily find women willing to share your life with you and/or orbit around you.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Now, that is embarrassing. That man has no shame. (And he needn't have any, need he?)

LPorter -- Social Darwinism much?

You are forgetting that the evolutionary model only applies to a very small percentage of people. Most people marry (or live with) the person they fall in love with despite their flaws and lack of "power." And even if it is not most, it is a significant number.

The idea that looks and money are what drives sexual attractions and relationships is a bit of propaganda that isn't necessarily true to the human spirit. It is certainly enforced by the media and to some extent the academic world in the United States but if you look closely it doesn't play as big of a role in people's everyday lives as it might first appear. Most people grow out of this superficiality by the time they are forty or so! Some never buy into it all.

lio45 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

You're forgetting about the male ego.

Yes, one can find a woman who will open her legs for cash, but it is demeaning and humiliating to have to pay for sex. A real man doesn't have to do that.

Not directly, no...

But indirectly? Yep. If you're very rich and you show it, you'll likely (unless you have really major other flaws) easily find women willing to share your life with you and/or orbit around you.

Well you'll get people in general to orbit around you, not just women. But you can also do so without money.

Now, the thing about high school is that status tends to accrue to those who would have it in the wild, so to speak.

The tall, muscular jocks and the firm, nubile cheerleaders do a lot better than everyone else because, essentially, that is what we are biologically programmed to want.

(Yes, there are women who genuinely dig short, fat guys and there are men who get hard when they see flat-chested, flat-butted women ... there's no accounting for taste. But, generally speaking, such preferences are not all that widespread.)

Later in life, the resentful nerds get rich and powerful and take their revenge ... but, when you're 18, you basically get the kind of pussy that your God-given genes say you should get.

And even among the jocks, there is a hierarchy. The taller guy has three cheerleaders on two arms; the shorter one has none:
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Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter -- Social Darwinism much?

A little.

Quote :

You are forgetting that the evolutionary model only applies to a very small percentage of people. Most people marry (or live with) the person they fall in love with despite their flaws and lack of "power." And even if it is not most, it is a significant number.

The idea that looks and money are what drives sexual attractions and relationships is a bit of propaganda that isn't necessarily true to the human spirit. It is certainly enforced by the media and to some extent the academic world in the United States but if you look closely it doesn't play as big of a role in people's everyday lives as it might first appear. Most people grow out of this superficiality by the time they are forty or so! Some never buy into it all.

Well, most people are not attractive and/or high-status ... most folks have to take what they can get.

But the bottom line is that we are monkeys, and the biggest, badass-est monkey wants to fuck the prettiest monkey he can snare. Everyone else gets his leftovers.

Interestingly enough, Brandon Reisbeck, the homecoming king at Columbine during the '98/'99 school year, looked fairly trollish himself:
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But he was the captain of the football team. Starters on the football team almost always end up at the top of the popularity heap, no matter how ugly they are.

LPorter what about these?

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None of these guys had an athletic bone in their body. They were shrimps and each one was bullied as a child. Also, one of them never had a penny to his name and had about twenty-five women following him to eat out of dumpsters and whore themselves out for nothing to his biker buds.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter what about these?

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None of these guys had an athletic bone in their body. They were shrimps and each one was bullied as a child. Also, one of them never had a penny to his name and had about twenty-five women following him to eat out of dumpsters and whore themselves out for nothing to his biker buds.

There are exceptions to every rule. I am talking about the macro sociological situation. At the micro psychological level, weird shit happens all the time.

Hell, even when I was at my fattest and acne-est, I could still see that I was involved in a social competition. One day after class, one of the ugliest girls I'd ever met - smart and nice, but bow-wow as all-get-out - asked me a question about something the teacher had said. As I was answering her question, another girl - exceedingly homely, but at least a 3 compared to the other girl, who was an 0 - loudly interrupted her and said, "Oh, *I* wanted to ask that same question ... can you show me your notes?" She actually got in front of the other girl when I was going through my bag.

(Now, I'm not implying that I was a 4, or even a 3 ... but I thought it was pretty funny that, even among the ugly girls, there was a little bit of competition for an ugly guy like me.)

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter -- Social Darwinism much?

A little.

Quote :

You are forgetting that the evolutionary model only applies to a very small percentage of people. Most people marry (or live with) the person they fall in love with despite their flaws and lack of "power." And even if it is not most, it is a significant number.

The idea that looks and money are what drives sexual attractions and relationships is a bit of propaganda that isn't necessarily true to the human spirit. It is certainly enforced by the media and to some extent the academic world in the United States but if you look closely it doesn't play as big of a role in people's everyday lives as it might first appear. Most people grow out of this superficiality by the time they are forty or so! Some never buy into it all.

Well, most people are not attractive and/or high-status ... most folks have to take what they can get.

But the bottom line is that we are monkeys, and the biggest, badass-est monkey wants to fuck the prettiest monkey he can snare. Everyone else gets his leftovers.

Right. So Hitler conquered Europe and got all of the "big monkeys" to do his biding, how? He was homeless living in the streets, blinded by mustard gas, shell-shocked, puny, ugly, weird, talent-less, sexually frustrated (and submissive to women), racist, a compulsive farter, a vegetarian, and he wasn't even a true German. So how did he get to the top of the German hierarchy? By flexing his biceps? Spending his trillions? The people you are referring to as "big monkeys" were nothing more than lackeys to a shrimp like Hitler.

By the way, my use of him as an example is intentional to suggest how really fucked up Social Darwinism is. After-all that is what you get if you follow that kind of reasoning to its natural conclusion.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter -- Social Darwinism much?

A little.

Quote :

You are forgetting that the evolutionary model only applies to a very small percentage of people. Most people marry (or live with) the person they fall in love with despite their flaws and lack of "power." And even if it is not most, it is a significant number.

The idea that looks and money are what drives sexual attractions and relationships is a bit of propaganda that isn't necessarily true to the human spirit. It is certainly enforced by the media and to some extent the academic world in the United States but if you look closely it doesn't play as big of a role in people's everyday lives as it might first appear. Most people grow out of this superficiality by the time they are forty or so! Some never buy into it all.

Well, most people are not attractive and/or high-status ... most folks have to take what they can get.

But the bottom line is that we are monkeys, and the biggest, badass-est monkey wants to fuck the prettiest monkey he can snare. Everyone else gets his leftovers.

Right. So Hitler conquered Europe and got all of the "big monkeys" to do his biding, how? He was homeless living in the streets, blinded by mustard gas, shell-shocked, puny, ugly, weird, talent-less, sexually frustrated (and submissive to women), racist, a compulsive farter, a vegetarian, and he wasn't even a true German. So how did he get to the top of the German hierarchy? By flexing his biceps? Spending his trillions? The people you are referring to as "big monkeys" were nothing more than lackeys to a shrimp like Hither.

By the way, my use of him as an example is intentional to suggest how really fucked up Social Darwinism is. After-all that is what you get if you follow that kind of reasoning to its natural conclusion.  

Yes, but I am not talking about the geopolitics of World War II ... I"m talking about why assholes like Rocky go around shoving smaller guys and calling them fags.

And another thing about Hitler: Why do people need power?

Those who seek power over others often feel that they lack control over their own lives. It's overcompensation.

And those who seek political power often are the ones who lack personal power.

The other day, someone I know was pulling out of a busy parking lot with lots of blind spots. (It's at a strip mall that's totally packed from late morning through mid-afternoon.) A cop was racing through the parking lot and had to stop suddenly to let this guy out. The cop got so pissed about having to stop that he gave the guy a ticket. Another guy who I also know was there - he was standing on the sidewalk - and he told me that the cop was totally full of shit - he was in a big fucking hurry and in a really bad mood.

Now, maybe things happened that way, and maybe they didn't ... but one interesting fact is that the driver, who is 5'9" on a good day, could see over the cop's head when he got out of the car.

Everything is a power trip and a pissing match.

It's the same conversation. Social Darwinism is what drives the bullying culture as it also drove Hitler's Reich as it also drives most of American media and corporate fascism and by extension the culture at CHS which was/is a microcosm.

That said, it is still not a true model of nature of of what drives the human soul. So that is why Columbine and other incidents like columbine will keep happening. The Social Darwinist model is what is causing all of the anxiety, alienation, and exploitation of humanity on a massive scale. But it is not a paradigm of nature; rather an enforced cult(ure) meant to sustain a leisure/owner class that looks nothing like the models of the top-dogs you're talking about.

In fact they look like this:

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Wow, that picture of Bill is big...

LPorter101 wrote:

Wow, that picture of Bill is big...

D-oh. Sorry. Also I'm not trying to be a dick. This is obviously a pet-peeve of mine. Maybe one reason why I started to get interested in Columbine in the first place.

I see what you are saying, obviously, but I think there is more to the picture.... (pun intended?)

On an anecdotal level -- I knew at least two fat guys that scored all kinds of tail back in the day. neither of them were good-looking, athletic, popular or rich. They both had a good sense of humor and weren't afraid to take the lead, so to speak. That's the only reasons I could see for why attractive women threw themselves at young mostly unemployed dudes with beer-guts and jailhouse tats. Also knew some shrimps with long hair that used to get girls chasing them just for that...

Balls can trump size ... the big guy is the pussy here:
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Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Wow, that picture of Bill is big...

D-oh. Sorry. Also I'm not trying to be a dick. This is obviously a pet-peeve of mine. Maybe one reason why i started to get interested in Columbine in the first place.

I see what you are saying, obviously, but I think there is more to the picture....

Well, yeah.

But I do believe that Eric and Dylan bought into this shit. They believed that there was a hierarchy of worth, and they were tired of being at the bottom of it.

LPorter101 wrote:

And another thing about Hitler: Why do people need power?

Those who seek power over others often feel that they lack control over their own lives. It's overcompensation.

And those who seek political power often are the ones who lack personal power.

The other day, someone I know was pulling out of a busy parking lot with lots of blind spots. (It's at a strip mall that's totally packed from late morning through mid-afternoon.) A cop was racing through the parking lot and had to stop suddenly to let this guy out. The cop got so pissed about having to stop that he gave the guy a ticket. Another guy who I also know was there - he was standing on the sidewalk - and he told me that the cop was totally full of shit - he was in a big fucking hurry and in a really bad mood.

Now, maybe things happened that way, and maybe they didn't ... but one interesting fact is that the driver, who is 5'9" on a good day, could see over the cop's head when he got out of the car.

Everything is a power trip and a pissing match.

Seems that way sometimes but there is also great harmony and cooperation. Sometimes you have to turn the noise level down to appreciate it. Looking at cops is probably not a good place to start. Try something a bit more reassuring like this

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LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Wow, that picture of Bill is big...

D-oh. Sorry. Also I'm not trying to be a dick. This is obviously a pet-peeve of mine. Maybe one reason why i started to get interested in Columbine in the first place.

I see what you are saying, obviously, but I think there is more to the picture....

Well, yeah.

But I do believe that Eric and Dylan bought into this shit. They believed that there was a hierarchy of worth, and they were tired of being at the bottom of it.

They did buy into it. They also sometimes saw through the lie. Seeing through that veneer for moments (and compensating for their sense of powerlessness) brought on the delusion that they were Gods. Ah, hubris. It gets us all for sure.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Wow, that picture of Bill is big...

D-oh. Sorry. Also I'm not trying to be a dick. This is obviously a pet-peeve of mine. Maybe one reason why i started to get interested in Columbine in the first place.

I see what you are saying, obviously, but I think there is more to the picture....

Well, yeah.

But I do believe that Eric and Dylan bought into this shit. They believed that there was a hierarchy of worth, and they were tired of being at the bottom of it.

They did buy into it. They also sometimes saw through the lie. Seeing through that veneer for moments (and compensating for their sense of powerlessness) brought on the delusion that they were Gods. Ah, hubris. It gets us all for sure.

It does.

By the way, you and I are having a pissing match right now.

Gawd, I hate Kevin Bacon.

If we're having a "pissing match" I am only partially engaged because I would be saying these same comments to anyone under any circumstance because that's how I feel. I would post them anonymously; I would be happy if they were attributed to someone else. Doesn't matter to me at all. I am responding to the idea, here, not the person posting the ideas.

But yes it always feels that way particularly in a forum...

I will concede that you have pissed farther than I and that you are an alpha male. Maybe you can get laid now!  if so, send me your leftovers as my current wife's cut me off because I have not yet cracked 80k a year.

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Gawd, I hate Kevin Bacon.

Remember Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon? That was a long time ago...

Quote :

If we're having a "pissing match" I am only partially engaged because I would be saying these same comments to anyone under any circumstance because that's how I feel. I would post them anonymously; I would be happy if they were attributed to someone else. Doesn't matter to me at all. I am responding to the idea, here, not the person posting the ideas.

Well, yeah.

But even the most polite debate is a war without bullets.

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But yes it always feels that way particularly in a forum...

I'll let you know when I feel an ad hominem attack coming on.

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I will concede that you have pissed farther than I and you are an alpha male. maybe you can get laid now!  if so, send me your leftovers as my current wife's cut me off because I have not yet cracked 80k a year.

Yeah, and after we get laid we can go around the school and emasculate guys we don't like...

I know a guy who makes $80k a year ... his wife keeps pushing him to make more.

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Gawd, I hate Kevin Bacon.

Remember Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon? That was a long time ago...

Quote :

If we're having a "pissing match" I am only partially engaged because I would be saying these same comments to anyone under any circumstance because that's how I feel. I would post them anonymously; I would be happy if they were attributed to someone else. Doesn't matter to me at all. I am responding to the idea, here, not the person posting the ideas.

Well, yeah.

But even the most polite debate is a war without bullets.

Quote :

But yes it always feels that way particularly in a forum...

I'll let you know when I feel an ad hominem attack coming on.

Quote :

I will concede that you have pissed farther than I and you are an alpha male. maybe you can get laid now!  if so, send me your leftovers as my current wife's cut me off because I have not yet cracked 80k a year.

Yeah, and after we get laid we can go around the school and emasculate guys we don't like...

I know a guy who makes $80k a year ... his wife keeps pushing him to make more.

Sounds like my wife would like him.

I won't ad hominem you if you don't make me push a penny with my nose. After-all from what you've been saying about yourself you probably outweigh me by quite a lot.

Now back to Rocky, etc...

Gustopoet2 wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Gustopoet2 wrote:

Gawd, I hate Kevin Bacon.

Remember Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon? That was a long time ago...

Quote :

If we're having a "pissing match" I am only partially engaged because I would be saying these same comments to anyone under any circumstance because that's how I feel. I would post them anonymously; I would be happy if they were attributed to someone else. Doesn't matter to me at all. I am responding to the idea, here, not the person posting the ideas.

Well, yeah.

But even the most polite debate is a war without bullets.

Quote :

But yes it always feels that way particularly in a forum...

I'll let you know when I feel an ad hominem attack coming on.

Quote :

I will concede that you have pissed farther than I and you are an alpha male. maybe you can get laid now!  if so, send me your leftovers as my current wife's cut me off because I have not yet cracked 80k a year.

Yeah, and after we get laid we can go around the school and emasculate guys we don't like...

I know a guy who makes $80k a year ... his wife keeps pushing him to make more.

Sounds like my wife would like him.

I won't ad hominem you if you don't make me push a penny with my nose. After-all from what you've been saying about yourself you probably outweigh me by quite a lot...

I probably do.

Years ago, I went to the top of the Empire State Building. While standing up at the ledge of the observation deck, I had a morbid urge to drop a penny from the edge, to see what it would do to someone on the sidewalk below. But I didn't do it, so I'll never know...

Rocky has a kid, you know ... I wonder if that kid will grow up to play on any sports teams.

After Cullen (or maybe even before Cullen), one of the biggest Columbine "gets" for this board would be Rocky*. He's already "defended" himself to Mark Ames - "I regret none of my past, as I will regret none of my future" - but I'd still like the chance to ask him if he has even the slightest twinge of regret.

He also claimed that he doesn't remember Eric and/or Dylan. I wouldn't be surprised if that's true - when you go after everyone around you, why should you take notice of a couple of "pussy-faggot losers" like them?

*Well, after the parents, Kevin Harris, Byron Klebold, and lots of other folks. But Rocky would be up there on my list.

I have a 9 year old son who plays football. I can see the "Rockys-in-the-making" on his team. In fact his first practice of the year was last night and the first thing that happened was the fattest, meanest kid on his team called him a "fag."

Later during practice my son was surrounded by his friends who were all congratulating his skills and he was selected to play quarterback in one of the upcoming games. You get good and bad people wherever you go. I have encouraged him to play because he loves the game, but I do worry about the jock culture sometimes especially since we live in a rather rustic but self-deluded "uppity" suburban community. Our family is not "connected" and we do not socialize with the other suburbanites, so I do see a bit of snobbishness now and then directed our way.  

Even among Columbine's athletes, there were "jocks" who tried to drop out or actually quit the team, as Sabratha pointed out in another thread.  The pecking order thing is as perverse and unhealthy for those who appear to be at the top of the food chain because it is the system itself that is wrong. I think that is the underlying theme of this thread as you suggested your original post.

LPorter101 wrote:

Well, I don't see women as objects ... but this is a nasty world. The bottom line is that your sexual and social worth are determined by the quality of the mate you can attract. This holds true for both men and women.

Women, by and large, are attracted to high-status men. High-status men might be tall, muscular, and athletic; they also might be short, pudgy, and clumsy. Money and power often trump looks.

If you see a beautiful woman with a trollish-looking guy, then you think, "He's got a shitload of money" and/or "He's the big boss of some company or something." Maybe he is; maybe he isn't. Maybe he works at McDonald's, but has a horse dick and bull balls; maybe he's unemployed, but has a sparking personality; maybe he's a valet-parking attendant, but knows how to hypnotize women. But the bottom line is that you assume that there's more going on than mere sexual attraction. You might sneer at her - "There goes yet another whore sleeping her way to the top" - but you understand and accept her motivations.

Men, by and large, are attracted to beautiful women. Women tend to seek status as an end in and of itself - sex is a tool to get more status. Men tend to seek status as a means - status is a tool to get inside hot chicks' pants. Now, men do like having status in and of itself - who doesn't want to be the alpha in any given situation? - but it is not the be-all and end-all goal for men that it is for many women. The goal for most men is pussy. Money can buy lots of fun things - fine wine, fast cars, and a villa on the Amalfi coast - but the best part is that it gets women to open up their legs.

If you see a handsome guy with a haggish-looking woman, then you think, "What the fuck is wrong with him? He must have some horrible flaw that isn't readily apparent." Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. Maybe she's the best lay he's ever had; maybe he feels a deep and abiding connection to her that feels like a gift from God; maybe she's a really good cook. But you do wonder why he can't do better. And you don't really understand it. You *might* think, "Well, he has balls, if nothing else - doesn't he know how bad being with that woman makes him look?"

There is such a thing as deep, abiding love between a 10 and a 0 - it does happen. But, by and large, you expect men and women to end up with women and men who are roughly at their level of attractiveness. You make more allowances for women - they have other things on their minds besides looks. But you do wonder what's going on when you see certain pairings.

I think you're really overgeneralizing here. In my experience people aren't so obsessed with this sex/power/status game you're talking about. Yeah there are people like this in the world obviously, I'm not even trying to claim they are rare, but I don't think it's pervasive as you make it sound. Plenty of people are just normal people, looking for a compatible person to spend their time/life with.

Sorry if that's not your experience though, cause what you're describing just sounds fucked up and kind of offensive to everyone involved? Like if everyone around me was like that I'd never leave my house probably. Yikes.

ellie z wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Well, I don't see women as objects ... but this is a nasty world. The bottom line is that your sexual and social worth are determined by the quality of the mate you can attract. This holds true for both men and women.

Women, by and large, are attracted to high-status men. High-status men might be tall, muscular, and athletic; they also might be short, pudgy, and clumsy. Money and power often trump looks.

If you see a beautiful woman with a trollish-looking guy, then you think, "He's got a shitload of money" and/or "He's the big boss of some company or something." Maybe he is; maybe he isn't. Maybe he works at McDonald's, but has a horse dick and bull balls; maybe he's unemployed, but has a sparking personality; maybe he's a valet-parking attendant, but knows how to hypnotize women. But the bottom line is that you assume that there's more going on than mere sexual attraction. You might sneer at her - "There goes yet another whore sleeping her way to the top" - but you understand and accept her motivations.

Men, by and large, are attracted to beautiful women. Women tend to seek status as an end in and of itself - sex is a tool to get more status. Men tend to seek status as a means - status is a tool to get inside hot chicks' pants. Now, men do like having status in and of itself - who doesn't want to be the alpha in any given situation? - but it is not the be-all and end-all goal for men that it is for many women. The goal for most men is pussy. Money can buy lots of fun things - fine wine, fast cars, and a villa on the Amalfi coast - but the best part is that it gets women to open up their legs.

If you see a handsome guy with a haggish-looking woman, then you think, "What the fuck is wrong with him? He must have some horrible flaw that isn't readily apparent." Maybe he does; maybe he doesn't. Maybe she's the best lay he's ever had; maybe he feels a deep and abiding connection to her that feels like a gift from God; maybe she's a really good cook. But you do wonder why he can't do better. And you don't really understand it. You *might* think, "Well, he has balls, if nothing else - doesn't he know how bad being with that woman makes him look?"

There is such a thing as deep, abiding love between a 10 and a 0 - it does happen. But, by and large, you expect men and women to end up with women and men who are roughly at their level of attractiveness. You make more allowances for women - they have other things on their minds besides looks. But you do wonder what's going on when you see certain pairings.

I think you're really overgeneralizing here. In my experience people aren't so obsessed with this sex/power/status game you're talking about. Yeah there are people like this in the world obviously, I'm not even trying to claim they are rare, but I don't think it's pervasive as you make it sound. Plenty of people are just normal people, looking for a compatible person to spend their time/life with.

Sorry if that's not your experience though, cause what you're describing just sounds fucked up and kind of offensive to everyone involved? Like if everyone around me was like that I'd never leave my house probably. Yikes.

People who are obsessed with winning think the way that I outlined above.

Not everyone needs to win. But competitive people do. These people can be found in competitive fields such as athletics, business, and politics.

Some people play a game because they think it's fun; others play because they need to beat others and climb on top of everyone else. The latter tend to be the ones who run everything in this world, because they keep pushing and pushing and pushing until they get the money and power (and whatever other things) that they want.

Be glad that you're not obsessed with status. Those who are tend to be unhappy.

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but there are also lots of guys who want to be with a woman who honestly and truly digs them, and thus validates their masculinity. I

If one wants to be with a woman to validate his masculinity (and not for common interests, bonding, sharing experiences etc), then something is certainly wrong with him.

Quote :

It hurts to be rejected, and to be told, "You're not good enough for me."

It feels good to be wanted, and bad not to be wanted.

Fair enough, I guess most people feel that way. However, that's part of life. Its always better to be told upfront about the lack of romantic feelings than being led on.

Quote :

The bottom line is that your sexual and social worth are determined by the quality of the mate you can attract.

I entirely disagree, its the other way around. The range of people that are attracted to you are determined by your standing in life, your achievements and actions.

If Polansky had not been a very sucessfull and bright movie director and instead worked as a I dunno... an average junior lighting technician for other movie makers, then women wouldn't be attracted to him. He'd just be one more short ugly dude.

Sure we all have the lkooks we have been given, mazel tov with that. But if you are good at what you do, perfrom a high quality job and are an accomplished politician, lawyer, astronaut or hockey player, then you will always get far more romantic attention than a loser with the same looks.

Sabratha wrote:

Quote :

but there are also lots of guys who want to be with a woman who honestly and truly digs them, and thus validates their masculinity. I

If one wants to be with a woman to validate his masculinity (and not for common interests, bonding, sharing experiences etc), then something is certainly wrong with him.

Lots of guys feel this way. When women don't give you a second look - or, even worse, when one *does* give you a second look, but then you fuck it up somehow - it makes you doubt your own masculinity.

After all, if you were a real man, you would snare a chick sooner or later, wouldn't you?

Does a woman not feel unattractive when men ignore her?

LPorter101 wrote:

Lots of guys feel this way. When women don't give you a second look - or, even worse, when one *does* give you a second look, but then you fuck it up somehow - it makes you doubt your own masculinity.

After all, if you were a real man, you would snare a chick sooner or later, wouldn't you?

Does a woman not feel unattractive when men ignore her?

Depends on the woman in question. People are different and react in various ways.

Rejection can have many sources - looks, clack of common beliefs and interests, unlikanle personality, l;ack of social skills, or just not being accomplished enough. A woman may go to bed with a very handsome highschool dropout, but in the vast majority of cases she's not gonna go steady with him or plan a future. You are missing the "accomplished" part and its vital.

Sabratha wrote:

LPorter101 wrote:

Lots of guys feel this way. When women don't give you a second look - or, even worse, when one *does* give you a second look, but then you fuck it up somehow - it makes you doubt your own masculinity.

After all, if you were a real man, you would snare a chick sooner or later, wouldn't you?

Does a woman not feel unattractive when men ignore her?

Depends on the woman in question. People are different and react in various ways.  

Rejection can have many sources - looks, clack of common beliefs and interests, unlikanle personality, l;ack of social skills, or just not being accomplished enough. A woman may go to bed with a very handsome highschool dropout, but in the vast majority of cases she's not gonna go steady with him or plan a future. You are missing the "accomplished" part and its vital.

That is true.

Let me put it to you this way, Sabratha.

There have been times when I have sat near a woman in, say, a mall food court - not even at the same table, but at a nearby table - and she has given me such a look of disgust and/or contempt. One time, I sat down, and a woman sitting two tables away actually got up and moved over to another table. (Yes, I shower and use deodorant.) And I didn't even leer at her or anything - I happened to meet her eyes because I was looking that way when I sat down.

Another time, I was in a bookstore, and I just happened to be looking at some books, and I accidentally brushed against a woman who was standing nearby. She gave a snort of disgust and left. (I wasn't even looking at her - merely perusing the books.)

Now, maybe she was premenstrual or something and overreacted to being brushed - not even bumped. I don't know. But I do know how it made me feel. I wasn't even looking to find this woman attractive, and I wasn't even looking at her, to be honest, but to have her treat me like I was some hideous creature brought me down.

Then there've been other times when women - and when I say women, I mean women who I would rate as attractive - have shown some degree of interest in me. These have been at times in my life when, for whatever reason, my physical and mental states have been better than at other times. I'm not so emotionally crippled that I can't tell what a second glance looks like.

(I'm not bipolar, but I've gone through "false dawns" before - short periods where I've had a far more optimistic outlook than usual, followed by a crash back down to my typical level of low-level constant depression. I had one in the fall of 2005, and then another in the summer of 2008. I haven't had a true one since then.)

Unless you have had someone look at you like you are a piece of dog shit on the bottom of their shoe, then you can't really know what I'm talking about.

(Cue someone saying, "I feel that way all the time, and you're still wrong!")

You are overthinking it. I believe I've had many people in my life move away to another chair on the bus away from me, look at me with some sort of disdain/disgust/anger etc.

So what? If tis strangers, then who cares. I don't really keep a mental list of all such cases. Neither should you.

Lporter wrote:

you can't really know what I'm talking about

Maybe not, never walked in your shoes. "Everyone gets to carry his own cross" as they say.