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 Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?

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Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Empty
PostSubject: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2015 8:36 am

Supposedly Eric's parents had a meeting with the parents of victims and told them they now believe Eric was a psychopath.

That's a pretty big claim, but the whole story is coming from Cullen so I'm cautious here.


Starts at around 1hr.12 mins into it.

Never heard about taht meeting with the Harris family, but supposeduly a victim's family member was there, was making notes and gave a copy of them to Cullen at some point.

Your thoughts? Unlikely? Misinterpretation by the victim's family member? Misinterpretation by Cullen? Entirely groundless BS?

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2015 9:03 am

Sabratha wrote:
Supposedly Eric's parents had a meeting with the parents of victims and told them they now believe Eric was a psychopath.

That's a pretty big claim, but the whole story is coming from Cullen so I'm cautious here.


Starts at around 1hr.12 mins into it.

Never heard about taht meeting with the Harris family, but supposeduly a victim's family member was there, was making notes and gave a copy of them to Cullen at some point.

Your thoughts? Unlikely? Misinterpretation by the victim's family member? Misinterpretation by Cullen? Entirely groundless BS?

Entirely groundless BS
Like a parent would ever say that about their son, especially when it's not true.
I'd be surprised if this meeting even took place given how secretive the Harris family has been.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2015 12:03 pm

IIRC, the Mauser family DID have a meeting with Eric's parents. Linda Mauser kept a blog and wrote about it; however, the story got taken down pretty quick. Maybe the Harris family complained? Cullen ''stole'' this personal account from her website and then used it for his own ends as if he made a great discovery...
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2015 12:29 pm

Ahh! Somehow I lost my original transcript written by Linda Mauser. The only other thing I could find is a news article (written by Cullen?) referencing the meet:

Quote :
Tom and Linda Mauser’s son Daniel was shot to death by Eric in the Columbine library. Last summer, the couple finally met Eric’s parents. The meeting took years to arrange. It began in 2007, with an angry letter from Tom Mauser. He and Linda had chosen not to take part in lawsuits many of their peers leveled against the Harrises and Klebolds. But they were just as hungry for answers. Eventually, Tom’s frustration boiled over. All those years and he still didn’t know how the boys got away with it. And resentment had set in: Why hadn’t the parents reached out more? So he set down some pointed questions. That approach failed. The Harrises declined to meet, though their attorney provided some answers.

Linda had been struggling with grief since Daniel’s murder, but recently made a breakthrough in therapy: She began telling people what she really thought. She channeled that new expressiveness toward a solution: writing a followup to the Harrises in early 2009. She wrote warmly: no demands, just how she felt. Honestly, she felt conflicted. She wasn’t sure what Wayne and Kathy had done. But she was decided on Eric. She forgave him.

Word came back slowly from the attorney: Would they like to meet? Yes.

Approximately 10 years and four months after Eric Harris murdered their child, Linda and Tom drove into Denver to greet his parents. The Harrises declined to comment on the meeting. These are Linda’s impressions.

They met at the Quaker Meeting House, where their attorney was a member. It was a sunny room with wooden floors and benches. The Harrises greeted them with a basket of flowers. Wayne spoke first. “Nice to meet you.” He smiled and reached for Linda’s hand. “Thanks for coming,” she said. They sat down in a quiet alcove.

Wayne did most of the talking. He is a retired Air Force major and sounded like one, careful and precise in his language. He was tall, but slight and avuncular, like a friendly neighbor.

Wayne was mystified by his son. Wayne and Kathy accepted that Eric was a psychopath. Where that came from, they didn’t know. But he fooled them, utterly.

He’d also fooled a slew of professionals. Wayne and Kathy clearly felt misled by the psychologist they sent him to. The doctor had brushed off Eric’s trademark duster as “only a coat.” He saw Eric’s problems as rather routine. At least that’s the impression he gave Wayne and Kathy.

They shared that perception with the Mausers. Other than the van break-in, Eric had never been in serious trouble, they said. He and Dylan were arrested in January 1998 and charged with three felonies. They eventually entered a juvenile diversion program, which involved close monitoring and various forms of restitution.

Eric rarely seemed angry, his parents said. There was one odd incident where he slammed his fist into a brick wall and scraped his knuckles. That was startling, but kids do weird things. It seemed like an aberration, not a pattern to be worried about.

Wayne and Kathy knew Eric had a Web site, but that didn’t seem odd. They never went online to look at it. “I found them kind of incurious,” Linda said.

From time to time, she wondered whether the Harrises were lying, or exaggerating. Her instincts said no. They did not strike her as calculating or devious; maybe a bit hapless. And Wayne was somewhat inscrutable. Honest, but not revealing. Linda believed them, but wondered whether the couple second-guessed themselves enough. “Honestly, if it were me this happened to, I think I’d still be questioning myself,” Linda said. “They did not seem to doubt themselves.”

Kathy was shy, but forthcoming once she got going. She wore her brown hair in a bob, coordinating a black-and-white outfit with black sandals. Linda noticed the red toenail polish. Kathy shared lots of loving stories about Eric. She described supervising him closely, particularly with the community-service work he was assigned in the juvenile diversion program. Eric got behind and nearly missed a deadline, until he charmed a supervisor into signing him in for hours he hadn’t actually worked. His parents found out and made him go back, put the time in.

Wayne defended Kathy as “a good mother.” Kathy worked, but said she was always “available” for Eric. She insisted on meals together, as a family. Shortly before the murders, Kathy had picked out Eric’s graduation cake: yellow, with chocolate frosting.

Senior year, Kathy was distressed about Eric’s lack of college or career plans. To Linda’s ear, Kathy seemed oddly unsure about whether Eric had taken entrance exams like the SATs. Kathy thought he might end up at a community college, so maybe that explained things.

Linda found Eric’s mother sincere and convincing. And haunted. Wayne and Kathy seemed involved in Eric’s life, at least as much as an average parent. Linda asked about guns. Was Eric unusually fascinated with weaponry? Not really, they said. He was into Doom, obviously, and subscribed to a gun magazine, but those two fit together. Eric spent hours and hours on the videogame, taking enormous pride in the new levels he created. There were weapons in Doom; he said the magazine helped. Wayne and Kathy said they never discovered a hint of Eric’s arsenal.

Eric didn’t seem interested in joining a lot of clubs, or pursuing a wide circle of friends. But he dated and all that seemed normal enough. They had him in professional counseling, and taking antidepressants. The situation seemed under control.

The Mausers tried to keep things conversational and steer clear of interrogation mode. But the topic of child abuse came up. No, they had never beaten Eric, the Harrises said, or been cruel to him.

Wayne spoke proudly about their older boy, Kevin. He was doing well now—“successful.” He had graduated college and gotten married. Kathy asked about Linda’s favorite memory of Daniel, and the progress of their daughter Christie, who was deeply traumatized by her brother’s murder and had been borderline suicidal. Kathy cried several times and repeated how sorry she was this all happened. She turned to Linda at one point and confessed how scared she had been to come. Wayne watched silently when she wept. Linda thought he seemed very detached.

The Mausers’ decision not to participate in the lawsuits proved fortuitous. The Harrises mentioned that they were interested in talking to parents who had not sued them.

Wayne answered all their questions, but it began to feel futile. He had no revelations. Tom got frustrated. So there was nothing to learn from this? he asked. No mistakes? Not really.

The conversation wound down after an hour. Linda told them she forgave Eric. That was important, she said later—“making some sort of tangible gesture to his parents.” She wanted to unleash some of the weight bearing down on them. “I didn’t want them to go on torturing themselves.” It felt good to cut it loose. She cut it free of herself at the same time.

Wayne and Kathy seemed pleased, but less effusive than Linda expected. She was hoping for a little more gratitude.

The couple told the Mausers they never planned to talk to the media; they didn’t think they could endure it.

Linda doesn’t care who they talk to, as long as they fully divulge to someone qualified to listen. She wants rigorous questioning, either from reporters or experts who have studied the case. “What I’m looking for, from both families, is transparency,” she says.

Linda has decided to forgive Wayne and Kathy. But she chose not to say so at the Quaker hall. They didn’t ask for it, they didn’t commit the murder, and Linda felt conflicted about them.

She still does. But it helped tremendously to meet them. They were not monstrous. It was hard to conceive of them as individuals before, as ordinary human beings. Now she has no choice.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2015 1:40 pm

Hello Megalox, thanks for taking teh time to send us this. Too bad you lost the transcript, now taht I know its anything more than a figment of Cullen's imagination, it has sparked some of my interest.

Also glad to see you around active again.

As for the text itself it is really interesting, but I'm hesitant to accept any of this as factual, as it is not the actual text by Mrs.Mauser but rather Dave's take on this.

I'm just not convinced that its not been Cullenized - that Dave puts it in a certain context and uses words (like psychopath) that were not necessarily in the original text. That these are Dave's conclusions rather than the "dry" original text.

So yeah... I'm afraid I cannot rate it as an reliable testimony due to the above mentioned factors.

Also if the accounty is accurate, then I probably would have been a better person to "interview" Wayne and Kathy Harris.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2015 3:40 pm

This is what the Mausers wrote:

The day before yesterday, my husband and I met Eric Harris’ parents. In the past year, individually, we had written to the Harris family via their attorney. My husband still had some unanswered questions for the parents of the young man who murdered our son at Columbine. I wanted to convey that, after ten years, I felt I had forgiven Eric. I had mixed feelings about the parents. I didn’t know (and still really don’t) how much they were to blame for what took place. I do believe they have suffered greatly. I also believe it’s entirely possible that they did not do a great deal wrong. Grossly, anyway. Maybe even much less wrong than lots of families whose kids turn out fine. Evil has a certain mysterious aspect to it. It’s threatening to believe that it can come out of nowhere. Most often, I think there’s an explanation. But maybe not always. We met the Harrises at a Quaker meeting hall in East Denver, the church of their attorney. It was a well-lit long and narrow room with wooden floors and lots of windows. We sat on benches across from one another in an alcove. Mr. Harris smiled and said, "Nice to meet you,” and extended his hand. I said, “Thank you for coming.” They brought me a basket of flowers. The attorney left. We sat and talked for maybe an hour. I didn’t know what to expect. We did convey that we were sorry for their suffering. Mr. Harris struck me as very intelligent and well spoken. He was genial and open to questions. His precise speech reminded me that he had been a pilot in the Air Force. In my mind, I had somehow pictured him as a large, overbearing, militaristic, authoritarian sort of fellow. He seemed to be none of these. He was more like a rather avuncular next door neighbor (and he practically WAS my next door neighbor). He was on the tall side but rather slight. Mrs. Harris seemed shyer, but she too was friendly. Brown bobbed hair, matching black and white outfit and black sandals with toenails painted red. Nothing about them seemed much out of the ordinary. I did think that Mrs. Harris had what I once read Ian Fleming describe as a “cruel mouth,” but that may have been my own projection (and can you really judge character by appearance?). Mr. Harris affirmed his wife as having been a “good mother.” They were interested in how our elder daughter Christine was doing. Mr. Harris talked about his pride in his eldest son, Kevin, and that he was doing well and was “successful.” They seemed genuinely mystified by wht had happened to their son. They seemed to rather readily accept that he was a psychopath. They didn’t know how he became so. They said what we’ve heard in the media, that he “fooled them” and fooled the psychologist who was treating him. They felt mislead by the psychologist who told them not to be concerned about a trenchcoat, that it was “only a coat” and that he apparently regarded Eric’s problems as minor. They said that Eric did seem to feel slights intensely, and that once he had slammed his fist into a brick wall and scraped his knuckles but that that was one of few clues that they had ever had that he was an angry person. They admitted that he had few friends and wasn’t particularly interested in joining any clubs. They attributed it to his introverted nature. He did date somewhat, however. Mr. Harris made reference to the fact that Eric had an operation to repair a chest abnormality (apparently he was born with his chest slightly caved in). He had been self-conscious about it. I asked Mr. Harris if Eric seemed overly fond of weaponry. He said no, that Eric did subscribe to a gun magazine, but that he thought he only did so to help him understand the video game “Doom” more readily. Supposedly they didn’t know about the weapons stashed in the house. According to Mr. Harris, they were well hidden in a window well. I should mention we did not approach this meeting in the manner of a police interrogation. It was more like a conversation with questions. Mrs. Harris said that the media inaccurately reported that she wouldn’t allow police in her basement. I don’t know if this is true. Mrs. Harris reiterated that Eric had made no plans for the fall of 1999, despite her insistence that he either find a job or be registered for school. She seemed a bit unclear on whether he had taken any college entrance examinations. I thought it a little odd that she would not remember. However, she also said that she was thinking of community college for him, so maybe that explains it. I’ll admit that I was zealously looking for clues, anything that would explain Eric’s aberrant behavior. There seemed little, if anything, to seize upon. They talked about Eric at some length. Just about the time I was noticing that they hadn’t asked anything about OUR son (and thinking, o.k., they must be narcissists), Mrs. Harris piped up and asked me what my favorite memory of our son was. They listened to our descriptions and seemed interested. They disavowed having ever beaten or been cruel to Eric. Mrs. Harris worked but said that she was always “available” for Eric. She seemed convincing. They had recently selected a cake (yellow with chocolate frosting) for his graduation. At various points during the interview, Mrs. Harris cried and said that she was so sorry this had happened. They mentioned that Eric had never been in serious trouble. They said they carefully supervised the community work he did. When Eric said that one of the “bosses” had let him get out of doing some of the hours (for breaking into a van), Mrs. Harris said they made him go back and do it anyway. They ate meals together as a family. Eric’s older brother was away at school when the shootings happened and has since graduated from college and married. It’s quite possible that the parents could be lying or exaggerating about a number of things, but I also note that the parents who filed suit against them (we were not among them) had their lawsuits dismissed. I am not critical of those who filed the lawsuits and I don’t consider us particularly noble for not having filed one. At the time, we didn’t want the strain of it. Indeed, filing the lawsuits was perhaps a good step in fact finding. Unfortunately the testimony of both the Harris and Klebold families has been sealed under court order, to be opened decades from now. I wish they had released the testimony, but I suspect that we will not find many more compelling answers there. I asked the Harrises if they felt too vulnerable talking to the media, and they said that they didn’t think they could endure it. Were there signposts along the way? According to the Harrises, only a few. Although some would probably brand me naive, the Harrises did not strike me as calculating and/or devious people. More like a bit hapless. I think hardly anyone could have predicted the viciousness of this crime, save for those who saw Eric’s website. Were the parents negligent for not knowing what was on Eric’s website and individual web pages? Probably somewhat, but how many parents know everything about their kids’ internet useage? (Maybe this should be a bit of a cautionary tale). The Harrises seemed to at least have an average level of involvement in their son’s life. Maybe their parenting style did not rise to the level of heroic or even greatly involved, but neither do most. They did not seem overly empathetic, but they did not seem like callous people either. My husband was, I think, somewhat frustrated with this interview. At one point he asked them, “so there is nothing we can learn from this, no mistakes were made?” According to the Harrises, none were. They did not seem overly defensive. One thing that struck me was that they did not seem to second guess themselves much. They did not seeem to doubt themselves, which I found slightly disquieting. Unless the Harrises were extremely good liars, I think there were some red flags but none that were all that blatant. I’m aware that the Brown family indicated that they told the Harrises of threats Eric made against their son. Probably the Harrises should have taken this more seriously, but I’m also aware that teenage boys can get into “He said/He said” types of situations. I believe I would have acted differently if my child purportedly made threats, but I still cannot say that I believe the Harrises acted with outlandish indifference. I did tell the Harrises that I forgave their son. To those who say ten years is too long, let me just say that it can take awhile to get a handle on the rage and allow some healing to take place. They seemed pleased. I felt uncomfortable extending forgiveness to them, because a) Eric was the one who committed the crime, b) they didn’t ask for my forgiveness, excpet for what their son did, and most importantly c) I still feel somewhat ambiguous about them, albeit somewhat more positive than I did. I did tell them I wished them peace. however. I can say that I do feel better having looked them in the eye. They did not seem monstrous, maybe just all-too-human.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Sep 26, 2015 8:08 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
It's good that you brought this up because a lot of people now accept it as fact that Eric's parents believe this about him and I see no proof of that at all.
All Mrs. Mauser said was that Eric's parents seemed to accept this about him.
I think seemed is the key word because this could have just been her interpretation of what was said or not said.
Maybe the Mausers' brought up the idea and Eric's parents said nothing and they took their silence as confirmation that they agreed with this diagnosis of their son.
Until the Harris's or someone close to them comes out and confirms this,I have my doubts.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSun Sep 27, 2015 5:12 am

Thanks LPorter101, that is great that you posted the actual thing. Big kudos.

Well, it does seem that his parents actually used the term "psychopath". While parents are not always the ones who know the most about their teenage kids (particularly their beliefs), I do think they are the people who had the most knowledge about Eric's life as a whole.

Doesn't mean that they can't be wrong, theya re just parent's not omiscent Gods. But I do think that their opinion should at least be treated seriously and taken into account.

As you probably all know, I do in fact believe that Eric was a psychopath, or at least a "borderline psychopath" so to speak - someone who had numerous psychopathic traits that made him far more psychopathic than an average joe (on the psychopathy spectrum). So perhaps I'm seeing things through my own preconceived notions or projecting my own thinking and beliefs onto Eric, fair enough if people see my post this way.

Still, it would be odd for parents to agree to such an assessment of their son, unless they believed it was true. Heck, many parents would still try to deny it even if they thought its true.

Again, we are seeing this trhough the Mauser's lenses, but I found this account hugely more credible than the Cullen one. Not just because its more direct, it is because it contains little details that do in fact corroborate what we know for certainty from other sources. This line in particular:
Quote :
They said that Eric did seem to feel slights intensely
Well, we do know Eric did in fact act this way. Both his friends accounts, as well as whis writings show it clear as day.

Having said that, I do not think Cullen tampered all that much with her statement, but as is the case with any secon-hand account, he mentioned some parts, ommited others and maybe its just me but he made Mrs.Mauser seem more angry and dissapointed with the Harrises than what her own account suggests.

Some other things I observed:
Quote :
Just about the time I was noticing that they hadn’t asked anything about OUR son (and thinking, o.k., they must be narcissists),
I think its hardly surprising. I imagine it wasn't all that easy to ask about a son that was killed by their own kid. I think its really easy to assume that the Harrises were afaid to pursue that topic, probably fearing an outburst of emotions from the Mausers.
Just my impression.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSun Sep 27, 2015 9:35 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I don't recall Eric's parents actually using the word psychopath themselves in the account.
All I remember is that Mrs.Mauser said that they seemed to readily accept that Eric was one, but I think that can be open to interpretation.
They also said he fooled them but ultimately he did since they had no idea this was coming.
Dylan's parents could say the exact same thing.
They opened up to nobody about their desire to attack their school and their feelings and reasoning's behind it.
I can't accept they believe this about their son without more documentation or confirmation from Eric's family that we have here which may never come.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSun Sep 27, 2015 9:43 pm

Sabratha wrote:
This line in particular:
Quote :
They said that Eric did seem to feel slights intensely

What does that line mean? Can you explain for me please? (preferably in detail and give examples). I'm very interested about this part of Eric.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2015 4:51 am

Sabratha wrote:
Still, it would be odd for parents to agree to such an assessment of their son, unless they believed it was true. Heck, many parents would still try to deny it even if they thought its true.

Psychopaths are born that way, right? Some parents would use this as an excuse to exonerate themselves from blame. It might be their motivation to readily accept the claim as fact. Their other son turned out perfectly after all, so there must've been a reason outside of their direct control why Eric became the person we're still discussing today. ''He was a bad seed, case closed''... From this point of view, it's really just a coping mechanism perhaps. Also, Wayne made some pretty big mistakes when it came to disciplining his son. For the sake of his peace of mind it's probably way easier to convince himself he was being fooled by a manipulating psychopath than accept he let matters slip he really shouldn't have.

Does that make sense even?
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2015 7:41 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I don't recall Eric's parents actually using the word psychopath themselves in the account.
All I remember is that Mrs.Mauser said that they seemed to readily accept that Eric was one, but I think that can be open to interpretation.
Well, LPorter quoted Mrs.Mauser's actual account in his post above in this thread, and the word psychopath does indeed appear.

PaintItBlack wrote:
I can't accept they believe this about their son without more documentation or confirmation from Eric's family that we have here which may never come.
Well, I'd be glad if I had the Harrise's own words, but the first hand Mauser account looks rather decent and reliabel to me. Certainly better than Cullen's second hand account.

MegaloX wrote:
Sabratha wrote:
Still, it would be odd for parents to agree to such an assessment of their son, unless they believed it was true. Heck, many parents would still try to deny it even if they thought its true.

Psychopaths are born that way, right? Some parents would use this as an excuse to exonerate themselves from blame.

It might be their motivation to readily accept the claim as fact. Their other son turned out perfectly after all, so there must've been a reason outside of their direct control why Eric became the person we're still discussing today. ''He was a bad seed, case closed''... From this point of view, it's really just a coping mechanism perhaps. Also, Wayne made some pretty big mistakes when it came to disciplining his son. For the sake of his peace of mind it's probably way easier to convince himself he was being fooled by a manipulating psychopath than accept he let matters slip he really shouldn't have.

Does that make sense even?

True, that might be a good interpretation why the parents act that way. And indeed, I do think the fact that Kevin turned out a regular guy is (and must be) a big factor in their thinking. I imagine they used similar if not the same parenting techniques with both kids, so this may add to such a claim.
We can't be sure without their own honest account (I'm doubtfull it will come up, seems they want to be left in prace), but your interpretation surely cannot be dismissed.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2015 10:46 am

I don't think Eric was a psychopath. In some of the basement tape transcripts I've read he talks about purposefully limiting time with his family in order to make the shooting easier for him. A psychopath wouldn't need to make things easier, they don't really have connections to other people in the normal sense. It seems as though Eric had to me mentally train himself to become the cold blooded killer he died as.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeMon Sep 28, 2015 8:11 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
True, the word did appear but it seemed to come from the Mausers' rather than the Harrises'.
I simply need more information to accept that believe this for certain about their son.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeTue Sep 29, 2015 6:30 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
True, the word did appear but it seemed to come from the Mausers' rather than the Harrises'.
I simply need more information to accept that believe this for certain about their son.

Yeah, no arguments there.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeTue Sep 29, 2015 10:31 am

Very easy way for parents in order to shut the case, 'our boy was a psychopath the end, life goes on, next question please'. And I do not accused the Harris family because most of people would do the same if they were in their shoes.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 08, 2015 6:31 pm

Multiple doctors independently confirmed the diagnosis of Eric as a psychopath.

His parents accept it, or not--doesn't matter.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 08, 2015 8:50 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Actually, it does matter.
Eric's parents knew him in ways that nobody else ever will, they have many memories of him that are theirs alone, they will be profoundly affected by his loss as long as they live.
So what they believe matters.
I know that you have made a point of telling me many times that opinions on Eric's mental health aren't valid unless you have a medical degree but I can't accept that and IMO, there have been some very detailed, quality arguments made against the psychopath diagnosis by both members of this board and posters elsewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 10, 2015 10:35 pm

I think Eric's parents swept their sons actions under the rug more compared to the Klebolds. Susan Klebold really seems to have tried to understand Dylan's actions. She's accepted that Dylan had serious problems and that she should have been more "invasive" in her parenting style. Eric's parents really seem like they wanted to be over it and to move on. They say they wouldn't talk to parents who sued them, even after the lawsuits were dropped/settled. Its like they want to separate themselves from Eric as much as possible. Its a lot more impersonal and distancing to say "our kid was just born crazy" than to say "our child had problems that we didnt do our best to fix". I'm not saying the parents didnt try. Eric's father kept the journal that proves he was worried about Eric. Its the fact that the shooting happened and you can't write off raising a killer as simple bad luck from birth. Its almost disturbing to me that they can have such a passive attitude towards it all.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 10, 2015 11:25 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I believe that the reason Eric's parents would only meet with the parents of victims who didn't sue them was because they were afraid of something they said being used against them and being sued all over again.
E&D's parents were first sued in May '99.
The lawsuits then went on for about 5 years before they were settled.
One can only imagine how hard and stressful that must have been for them, grieving for their son and what happened, and then having to deal with the constant stain of being sued by multiple people all at the same time.
If I were them, I would be terrified of lawsuits being started up against me again too.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSun Oct 11, 2015 3:06 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I believe that the reason Eric's parents would only meet with the parents of victims who didn't sue them was because they were afraid of something they said being used against them and being sued all over again.
E&D's parents were first sued in May '99.
The lawsuits then went on for about 5 years before they were settled.
One can only imagine how hard and stressful that must have been for them, grieving for their son and what happened, and then having to deal with the constant stain of being sued by multiple people all at the same time.
If I were them, I would be terrified of lawsuits being started up against me again too.

If I recall one or two families said they'd drop their lawsuits if they could talk to the Harris and Klebolds. I definitely understand their fears. At the same time though I feel they owe it to the victims families on some level. I think it would help comfort the victims families talking one on one instead of hearing depositions. I can't imagine what a tough spot that must be. To not be directly responsible for the deaths of children while still having had a hand by being the killers legal guardians. I wish we could get some kind of update from them. Susan is writing her book. Maybe good reception will spur something in Wayne and Kathy? I'd even settle for a statement through a lawyer. If they're ever to speak publicly the most logical time would be on the 20th anniversary. If they don't by then they most definitely never will.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSun Oct 11, 2015 4:53 am

Nirvana92 wrote:
Its a lot more impersonal and distancing to say "our kid was just born crazy" than to say "our child had problems that we didnt do our best to fix". I'm not saying the parents didnt try. Eric's father kept the journal that proves he was worried about Eric. Its the fact that the shooting happened and you can't write off raising a killer as simple bad luck from birth. Its almost disturbing to me that they can have such a passive attitude towards it all.

Each is trying to cope with their own way. The Klebolds to some point imho were in denial of Dylan's conscious part in the attack. Firts they described it as abolt of the blue and compared it to a natural disaster, avoiding adressing the issue of blame. Then they seem to have went in a "Dylan was not guilty, he was ill".

Maybe I'm wrong, but my impression is that they are willing to accept Dylan as a mentally ill victim, but not as a perpetrator.

Not questioning Dylan's depression btw.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSun Oct 11, 2015 8:46 pm

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I don't know if you can properly say that E &D's parents owe the victims families anything as they had no knowledge of what took place and I believe tried to be decent parents. However, the fact that both sets of parents have since met with some families shows that they are not adverse to talking and trying to provide some sort of answers.
E &D's parents did not talk to the families until long after the lawsuits were settled because their lawyers strongly advised them not to.
Any competent lawyer would have done the same.
I'm sure that at times both E &D's families must have feared they'd lose everything they owned and be left with nothing.
Some families at that time like Daniel R's were out for blood so that was not an unfounded fear.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeFri Oct 16, 2015 11:29 am

PaintItBlack wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
Actually, it does matter.
Eric's parents knew him in ways that nobody else ever will, they have many memories of him that are theirs alone, they will be profoundly affected by his loss as long as they live.
So what they believe matters.
I know that you have made a point of telling me many times that opinions on Eric's mental health aren't valid unless you have a medical degree but I can't accept that and IMO, there have been some very detailed, quality arguments made against the psychopath diagnosis by both members of this board and posters elsewhere.

It doesn't matter whether his parents accept it, you or I accept it, the world accepts it.

All that matters is the people who are trained to formulate medical diagnoses based on evidence. They have years of training and scientific procedures for reaching such claims, which you or I or Eric's parents simply don't have access to.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 17, 2015 12:37 am

I don't know what that matters when there is literally so many instances where Eric Harris is shown to have feelings and actual emotions. If the experts think he is a psychopath then that's great, but not sure why that means I have to take it as a fact.

The experts also don't have access to Eric Harris off camera or his life not documented like his parents likely did.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 17, 2015 3:01 am

Psychopath is a term used to describe people who can characterized as lacking in remorse and empathy.  I'd say that describes Eric's behavior fairly well.  It does not mean that he was completely devoid of any emotional attachments.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeSat Oct 17, 2015 7:16 am

They need to find some sort of answer and explanation to why this happened, it really doesn't matter if it’s correct or not, but they need some sort of answer so they can move on with their lives.

It’s really sad we don’t know basically anything about them, because they are so private and I accept and understand that fully. I just feel that one little interview, just one, would clarify at least something. But they don’t owe it to us, but I’m glad that they’ve met with victims parents. That is all that matters really. It’s their tragedy.
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeTue Oct 20, 2015 4:13 am

I think they simply still feel vulnerable, given the witch hunt and the lawsuits. It wouldn't be unreasonable to assume they still feel victimized: "We didn't brake any laws, we lost a soin that day like many others, but people just want to cut our throats years later" kind of reaction.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeWed Oct 21, 2015 9:21 pm

@sergenthartman,
Eric is often described as lacking in empathy and remorse but I don't know if that's true.
I think Eric felt that the percentage of people deserving his empathy was much smaller than many people.
Eric took this to an extreme by being willing to kill people but even today this is not an unknown attitude. Many people don't like to admit it but they don't care about anyone outside of their circle of family and friends.

I also wonder why he talked about having to turn off his feelings of sympathy to go through with this if he had none to turn off in the first place?
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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 22, 2015 2:06 am

Again, just because I say that Eric was a psychopath doesn't mean that I believe that he didn't care for anyone at all or that he had zero feelings.

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PostSubject: Re: Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath?   Eric's parents thought he was a psychopath? Icon_minitimeThu Oct 22, 2015 2:13 am

@sergeanthartman,
Understood.
I was just elaborating more on the whole idea, bringing up some ideas and questions.
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