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 What if you were one of the kids in the library

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PostSubject: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSat Oct 17, 2015 10:27 pm

What would be your reaction when e and d were entering the library ?

Would you confront them ?

Would you try to escape ?

Would you tackle them ?

There was one kid who apparently tryied to tackle them . I cant recall who was . There was a remark made by dylan i think that he said someone tried to jump eric in order to remove the weapons from him .

Personnaly i dont know what i would have done being the same age as those kids in the library . Maybe i would stay put like they did .
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSat Oct 17, 2015 11:18 pm

*raises hand* Ummm...
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSun Oct 18, 2015 4:56 am

That was Daniel Mauser who pushed the chair into Eric after being shot through the hand. Perhaps doing that resulted in him getting one in the face.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSun Oct 18, 2015 8:19 am

I have no idea what I'd do. I'd probably just freeze up and try not to move or draw attention to myself.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSun Oct 18, 2015 12:55 pm

I guess it would depend on where I was in the library
I know I'd be terrified. Probably piss myself
But I'd try to survive and help people around me.
Maybe I'd make a run for it or hide. I wouldn't confront them
I'm not that brave. But I can't know for sure how I'd act

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] did anyone try running before they entered the library?

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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSun Oct 18, 2015 3:22 pm

browneyes11 wrote:
I guess it would depend on where I was in the library
I know I'd be terrified. Probably piss myself
But I'd try to survive and help people around me.
Maybe I'd make a run for it or hide. I wouldn't confront them
I'm not that brave. But I can't know for sure how I'd act

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] did anyone try running before they entered the library?

I think no one tried to run just before they entered the library , but when they were outside someone eard something outside and left the library , i think it was an adult male and it was with that lady that was on the 911 call in the library . This happened before e and d entered through the main entrance .
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSun Oct 18, 2015 5:55 pm

browneyes11 wrote:
I guess it would depend on where I was in the library
I know I'd be terrified. Probably piss myself
But I'd try to survive and help people around me.
Maybe I'd make a run for it or hide. I wouldn't confront them
I'm not that brave. But I can't know for sure how I'd act

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] did anyone try running before they entered the library?

No, everyone got under the desks as Mrs Neilson ordered.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeMon Oct 19, 2015 12:12 pm

I don't want to derail the thread, but I have a question for yumeko-Chan as well.

What could have been done differently in the library to lessen the casualties? I totally understand if you don't wish to dig up those memories again, but it has always been at the back of my mind.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeMon Oct 19, 2015 1:51 pm

Probably would have been very scared (Most definitely), I would have tried staying hidden and stealthily moving to a part of the library where i was unlikely to be discovered, Would have only tried disarming them if one of them was quite a bit of a ways away from the other and had their back turned to me. And yeah that's about it, Granted, Even then i would probably just stay hidden. If they dropped the guns I would go hand to hand with them though lol.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeMon Oct 19, 2015 3:14 pm

I would have tried to hide and if they saw me anyway I would have plead with them and offered to do ANYTHING necessary to stay alive short of killing one of the other kids. I'm scared of death and would not be able to have killing someone on my conscience.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeMon Oct 19, 2015 4:35 pm

radaddio wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread, but I have a question for yumeko-Chan as well.

What could have been done differently in the library to lessen the casualties? I totally understand if you don't wish to dig up those memories again, but it has always been at the back of my mind.

People over the years have asked, "Why didn't the kids just run out the emergency exit?" Have you SEEN a diagram of the library? The emergency exit leads out onto the hill where Eric and Dylan started it all. Now, I don't know where E&D were when Mrs. Neilsen came running in -- maybe they were in the cafeteria by this point -- but still, that would've been a bad move, IMO.

So, the short answer is no. I don't think there would've been any way to lessen the casualties.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeMon Oct 19, 2015 4:45 pm

I would have probably stayed hidden- would probably try to run out... My friend was in one of the recent school shootings, and he was in the building that was being shot up- and him running out saved his life. So, I would hope I could run out somehow.

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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeMon Oct 19, 2015 4:50 pm

Yumeko-chan wrote:
radaddio wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread, but I have a question for yumeko-Chan as well.

What could have been done differently in the library to lessen the casualties? I totally understand if you don't wish to dig up those memories again, but it has always been at the back of my mind.

People over the years have asked, "Why didn't the kids just run out the emergency exit?"  Have you SEEN a diagram of the library?  The emergency exit leads out onto the hill where Eric and Dylan started it all.  Now, I don't know where E&D were when Mrs. Neilsen came running in -- maybe they were in the cafeteria by this point -- but still, that would've been a bad move, IMO.

So, the short answer is no.  I don't think there would've been any way to lessen the casualties.

I've always wondered that. Thank you for posting. It sounds like a bad place to be no matter what the game plan was.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeMon Oct 19, 2015 6:33 pm

Yumeko-chan wrote:
radaddio wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread, but I have a question for yumeko-Chan as well.

What could have been done differently in the library to lessen the casualties? I totally understand if you don't wish to dig up those memories again, but it has always been at the back of my mind.

People over the years have asked, "Why didn't the kids just run out the emergency exit?"  Have you SEEN a diagram of the library?  The emergency exit leads out onto the hill where Eric and Dylan started it all.  Now, I don't know where E&D were when Mrs. Neilsen came running in -- maybe they were in the cafeteria by this point -- but still, that would've been a bad move, IMO.

So, the short answer is no.  I don't think there would've been any way to lessen the casualties.

Did you see them outside from the library when they started shooting?
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeMon Oct 19, 2015 6:40 pm

Yumeko-chan wrote:
radaddio wrote:
I don't want to derail the thread, but I have a question for yumeko-Chan as well.

What could have been done differently in the library to lessen the casualties? I totally understand if you don't wish to dig up those memories again, but it has always been at the back of my mind.

People over the years have asked, "Why didn't the kids just run out the emergency exit?"  Have you SEEN a diagram of the library?  The emergency exit leads out onto the hill where Eric and Dylan started it all.  Now, I don't know where E&D were when Mrs. Neilsen came running in -- maybe they were in the cafeteria by this point -- but still, that would've been a bad move, IMO.

So, the short answer is no.  I don't think there would've been any way to lessen the casualties.

when Mrs. Neilsen came running in they were at the main entrance . See the cnn diagrams ( [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ) about it .
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeTue Oct 20, 2015 4:17 am

I refuse to answer that quetsion. I wasn't there, speculating what I've done "better" or "worse" would be disrespectfull to Yumeko-chan or other kids who were there.

Also, remember that the CHS shooting was pretty much the first major incident like that and it still took ER services, police and school authorities years to draw the conclusions and devise positive procedures.

People on 4/20 didn't have any of that hindsight. Sure, they might have heard about Jonesboro, but that was a different type event at the core.

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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeTue Oct 20, 2015 9:27 am

I understand your position, but speculation can be a healthy means of collaboration regarding better tactics and response. So much so, that there is even talk of having potential victims be more proactive in physically defending themselves against a shooter. This makes sense, since there is no response time quick enough for LE to completetly stop a spree killer.

I myself have always been a proponent of "last resort" non lethal countermeasures. There are many public places in the United States that have automatic defibrillators. These are to be used with very special training, under very specific circumstances. My thinking is that we can install a similar wall mounted vault that houses a large capsicum spray tank that would be about the size of a fire extinguisher, with the same spread and reach. If there's a life threatening altercation, then trained personnel or students, who have certifications issued at the same place you get your CPR card, can deploy the countermeasure and use it in a manner similar to a fire extinguisher. If you catch a few kids in the spray, it's nonlethal and not permanent. It would, however diffuse a situation. But, I'm getting off track.

Also, I think it was more than likely that at least some students knew of the Jonesboro Massacre. Eric and Dylan mention other mass shootings in the BT, and there were numerous times that students were quoted as joking about the next "school shooters" being Eric and Dylan. In fact, there were students from the video production class that stated that very thing, and it happened on 4/19, the day before the shooting.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeTue Oct 20, 2015 10:36 am

I think I could try to answer a "what do you now think is the best tactic in a similar situation?" question.

But I think the "What if you were one of the kids in the library" formula makes it too easy to end up producing insensitive replies of the "what would I do better" kind and being disrespectfull of those who actually were there.

Hence my reaction.

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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeTue Oct 20, 2015 11:08 am

I can see how it would possibly be construed that way. It's too easy to see things through the lens of hindsight. We would all like to be tough, confident people of action in times like this, but truth be told, we don't really know how we would react. I refrained from answering based on that perception, but I don't wish to discount other's thoughts on the subject.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeWed Oct 21, 2015 5:11 pm

Sabratha wrote:
I refuse to answer that quetsion. I wasn't there, speculating what I've done "better" or "worse" would be disrespectfull to Yumeko-chan or other kids who were there.

Also, remember that the CHS shooting was pretty much the first major incident like that and it still took ER services, police and school authorities years to draw the conclusions and devise positive procedures.

People on 4/20 didn't have any of that hindsight. Sure, they might have heard about Jonesboro, but that was a different type event at the core.

I was about to come in here and say the same thing. This shit really happened. Children were murdered that day without any idea why it was happening to them. Its one thing to play "what would you do" with a movie or TV show. This is just plain poor taste honestly.

You wanna know what would have happened had any of you been there? You'd be dead or scarred for life. Its easy to say "I'd sneak out" or "I'd try and take them out" until you're staring down the barrel of a gun. You have no idea what its like to be in that position and I assure you its not fun.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeFri Oct 23, 2015 4:26 am

If they got close to me, I would for sure engage them in conversation and try some reverse psychology on them. Perhaps tell them not to kill me, because I hate the school too, and I am also a victim of bullying.
I suppose that is kind of selfish, because I am only trying to save myself. But I'm not sure there is much more an unarmed person could do, to save everyone else.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeFri Oct 23, 2015 8:56 am

I wonder if that was what John Savage felt when he escaped the library?

There is a fight of flight instinct that does weird things during a shooting. In the wild, people tend to run away. Shootings that occur in closed spaces will mute this to some effect, but it's still there.

Now, we have active shooter scenarios that teach engagement much sooner to prevent as much bloodshed as possible. Just like they altered police training after Columbine, they also altered how potential victims are supposed to react.

I didn't really want to say anything sooner, but I've been involved in two robberies where guns were used. Once was in 1996, when I was in high school. I worked at a Pizza Hut that was robbed. I was in the back, and my manager was the one who got a gun in her face, literally. I came around the corner when I heard her voice change. It became sort of reserved, but shrill and tense. I'll never forget it. The gunman was already shoving cash in the front of his pants when he saw me. He pointed the gun at me, but it was kind of an empty gesture. I could tell he was distracted with the money, which was good for us. The cops later caught him that day. He claimed that if there was less money(we had a store with a crappy location that never did well), he would have killed us to prevent our testimony. The police claimed that he was mentally ill, and living in a nearby riverbed. He had a history of being in and out of the system since a young age. Truly I could have done without the police telling us all of that, but they wanted to keep us informed.

The next one was in 2002. Same town, different location. I was at the bank depositing my paycheck, and a well dressed black man came in with his gun drawn. He walked up to the first teller, and pointed a gun in her face. He never told us to get on the ground, he just asked for the money politely and then left. It was over in under a minute. The weird thing about that one was the fact that it was over before it started seemingly. He had the gun, then the money, and afterwards everyone was crying and frantically trying to call 911. The teller who was robbed was more calm than any one. She told everyone to calm down, and that she had already pushed the alarm button. I was just standing at one of the back desks when it all happened. The cops showed up within five minutes. After that, they took our statements and let us leave an hour or so later. A week later, an agent from the nearby FBI field office came to my work and took another statement. It was odd, because they caught the perpetrators so quickly in both instances. The bank robber never even got out of the county. The Pizza Hut robber went back to the river bed near the restaurant also. The bank robber was just a random thug who was down on his luck. They never needed me to be witness either time, since  they had other people who supposedly saw more in both instances.

I'm okay with people speculating what they would do in these instances, because you do it every day after being the victim of violent crime. I now have two boys, and a lovely wife. I've never gone into a building that I don't know at least two ways to get out. In restaurants, I sit facing the door. Always. I lock my doors twice every night, even though I live out in the country. I don't own guns, and I never wanted them in my house when my kids were younger, but I have some means of improvised weaponry in every room of the house. I've also carried a pocket knife or multi tool since the mid 90s too. Every time I'm standing in line at the bank, store, etc. I have a plan now if the place gets robbed. If I'm with my family, I'm gonna gather them up close to me so as to better protect them in some way. If I'm alone, I'm running out of there as fast as I can. Always. This stuff tends to weave into your life in a way you don't recognize after awhile. You end up thinking about it every day, but not to the effect that you're traumatized by it. it's just another chore you take care of throughout the day.

Sorry for the wall of text.

TL;DR; I was robbed, speculation is okay. So is having a plan to get out.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeFri Oct 23, 2015 3:17 pm

Wow what a story! That sure is bad luck, being put in that scenario twice!

I have also been robbed, while working in a local resteraunt, as a teen, and it is indeed a scary thing. I suppose we never know how we will react until it happens to us.

Another idea, perhaps in that situation I couldve banned together with the people under my table( a few unarmed people are better then one) and we could've created a diversion of some sort, to try and escape. Or potentially disarm one of the shooters( I would have targeted Dylan in this scenario, while larger then Eric, he seems like the least scrappy of the two) if we were going to likely be shot anyways, we might aswell be shot trying to save our lives and potentially everyone else's. But of course I'm just brainstorming. Knowing myself, I would have likely tried to talk/manipulate my way out of danger.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSat Oct 24, 2015 12:19 am

Thanks, it didn't really seem like a big deal but it was worth sharing for reference. I was young and stupid at the time, so I was able to take it with youthful male bravado.

Sorry you were robbed too. It seems more common than people think.

I like your idea of gathering everyone together to rush en masse. It seems logical and straightforward. In fact,, it's what they've began training people for in active shooter training.

I would honestly say that people like me would be the biggest detractor to your plan. In both robberies, I just stood there with my mouth open. I think if you showed that you had leadership traits, then it would go along way towrard making people work together.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSat Oct 24, 2015 3:00 am

I wouldn't be showing any leadership traits in the middle of a shooting.

My old man always told me "If you ever get in bother with a group of guys, always chin the gobby one first. If you put him down, the rest will think twice".
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSat Oct 24, 2015 12:16 pm

radaddio wrote:
I wonder if that was what John Savage felt when he escaped the library?

There is a fight of flight instinct that does weird things during a shooting. In the wild, people tend to run away. Shootings that occur in closed spaces will mute this to some effect, but it's still there.

Now, we have active shooter scenarios that teach engagement much sooner to prevent as much bloodshed as possible. Just like they altered police training after Columbine, they also altered how potential victims are supposed to react.

I didn't really want to say anything sooner, but I've been involved in two robberies where guns were used. Once was in 1996, when I was in high school. I worked at a Pizza Hut that was robbed. I was in the back, and my manager was the one who got a gun in her face, literally. I came around the corner when I heard her voice change. It became sort of reserved, but shrill and tense. I'll never forget it. The gunman was already shoving cash in the front of his pants when he saw me. He pointed the gun at me, but it was kind of an empty gesture. I could tell he was distracted with the money, which was good for us. The cops later caught him that day. He claimed that if there was less money(we had a store with a crappy location that never did well), he would have killed us to prevent our testimony. The police claimed that he was mentally ill, and living in a nearby riverbed. He had a history of being in and out of the system since a young age. Truly I could have done without the police telling us all of that, but they wanted to keep us informed.

The next one was in 2002. Same town, different location. I was at the bank depositing my paycheck, and a well dressed black man came in with his gun drawn. He walked up to the first teller, and pointed a gun in her face. He never told us to get on the ground, he just asked for the money politely and then left. It was over in under a minute. The weird thing about that one was the fact that it was over before it started seemingly. He had the gun, then the money, and afterwards everyone was crying and frantically trying to call 911. The teller who was robbed was more calm than any one. She told everyone to calm down, and that she had already pushed the alarm button. I was just standing at one of the back desks when it all happened. The cops showed up within five minutes. After that, they took our statements and let us leave an hour or so later. A week later, an agent from the nearby FBI field office came to my work and took another statement. It was odd, because they caught the perpetrators so quickly in both instances. The bank robber never even got out of the county. The Pizza Hut robber went back to the river bed near the restaurant also. The bank robber was just a random thug who was down on his luck. They never needed me to be witness either time, since  they had other people who supposedly saw more in both instances.

I'm okay with people speculating what they would do in these instances, because you do it every day after being the victim of violent crime. I now have two boys, and a lovely wife. I've never gone into a building that I don't know at least two ways to get out. In restaurants, I sit facing the door. Always. I lock my doors twice every night, even though I live out in the country. I don't own guns, and I never wanted them in my house when my kids were younger, but I have some means of improvised weaponry in every room of the house. I've also carried a pocket knife or multi tool since the mid 90s too. Every time I'm standing in line at the bank, store, etc. I have a plan now if the place gets robbed. If I'm with my family, I'm gonna gather them up close to me so as to better protect them in some way. If I'm alone, I'm running out of there as fast as I can. Always. This stuff tends to weave into your life in a way you don't recognize after awhile. You end up thinking about it every day, but not to the effect that you're traumatized by it. it's just another chore you take care of throughout the day.

Sorry for the wall of text.

TL;DR; I was robbed, speculation is okay. So is having a plan to get out.

Quite an experience. Never been in anything like that, never had a gun pointed at me all my life (hey, its Poland not US so it would be rather unusual for anyone to rob a pizza parlor with anuthing mor ethan a baseball bat or knife).

Closest thing of that sort was being a target of a mugging attempt when I was a kid roughly 12 y.o. Guy failed miserably trying to mug me, I stuggled free and fled to a bus stop full of people, so its not like I've had any real traumatic expiriences.

I did carry a swichblade for quite some time afterwards, as I decided I wouldn't want to be in a similar situation if someone decided to do more to me than try to steal a few measly zloty. I treated that as a kind reminder from life to stay on one's toes and not let one's guard down. Still, a guy with a gun is something entirely diff and I don't even wanna speculate on that sort of issues.

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Life is like a tram - you need to know when to get off.

"Bullet Time" - a school shooting film from Poland
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What if you were one of the kids in the library Empty
PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitimeSat Oct 24, 2015 1:03 pm

Well, I had been around guns as a kid since I was in Boy Scouts. Seeing one pointed at me wasn't really a big deal. There was always a sort of detachment from the events that shaped how I think, but not in a way that was traumatic.

Honestly, being mugged seems like a much more traumatic circumstance. There is a sort of personal interaction there that, I assume, is much more visceral and up close. The fact that you carried a switch blade afterwards makes me think that we had similar responses to the crimes.

I've never worried about being mugged, I'm male and 6' 6" (1.98m). The closest thing to a mugging I've ever experienced was when a homeless man in San Francisco growled at me.
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PostSubject: Re: What if you were one of the kids in the library   What if you were one of the kids in the library Icon_minitime

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