Columbine and the Subnet

Eric's body came to the morgue with a separate bag containing a tooth and 600g of decomposing brain matter. I believe the autopsy outlines that he was missing one tooth.

I have often wondered the "Decomposing" bits in all of the reports... How long did most of the bodies sit in there before being removed?

They were removed early (like by 7am) on the 22nd but I'm guessing since they'd been sitting at room temp or warmer for two days it affected it.

2 days... so yeah enough time to start to give a hint of smell and break down.... I wonder if this is why most had closed caskets (from pics I can see only Dan M and Isiah had open ones).

The Computerized Evidence Log lists tooth/teeth as follows:

JCSO [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] -- All these items were removed from the Science Area where Dave Sanders was.


** Interesting enough, Eric's tooth is not listed in the Evidence Log, although we know from the autopsy report that his lower right incisor tooth was missing (which was given to the Coroner).

Yuck. I cannot even fathom having that job of cleaning up after something like this. And poor Daniel Mauser's father did not even know his son was shot in the face until the funeral home called him to explain that they needed more time to prepare his body for services. He writes about that in his book, how shocked he was when then man told him Daniel had been shot point blank in the face.

It makes me shudder to even imagine bring in Tom's shoes during that moment. How awful.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (sorry I can't quote your post on mobile), Kelly Fleming also had an open casket; she and Daniel Mauser had a joint funeral.
A little off topic but lately I've been wondering- if E&D had just hung in there for TWO MORE WEEKS, they could have escaped all of this. It blows my mind how for as intelligent they both were, that they didn't have the foresight to see that things would have started looking up soon? Dylan was already going to ASU in the fall and had so much more to do. I'm 30 now and I now know so much more than I did at 18...even though I thought I did then... I wonder what they would be like now and what they'd be thinking of their younger selves. It makes me a little sad that they couldn't see beyond their current situation.

Jlfox7 wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (sorry I can't quote your post on mobile), Kelly Fleming also had an open casket; she and Daniel Mauser had a joint funeral.
A little off topic but lately I've been wondering- if E&D had just hung in there for TWO MORE WEEKS, they could have escaped all of this. It blows my mind how for as intelligent they both were, that they didn't have the foresight to see that things would have started looking up soon? Dylan was already going to ASU in the fall and had so much more to do. I'm 30 now and I now know so much more than I did at 18...even though I thought I did then... I wonder what they would be like now and what they'd be thinking of their younger selves. It makes me a little sad that they couldn't see beyond their current situation.

They didn't want to hang in there, they wanted to destroy as much as possible, at least Eric did anyway. I believe that Dylan did see a future for himself if NBK didn't happen for some reason. Eric however was just dead set on taking out as many people as he could.

@JlFox,
Yes, it's tremendously sad but when someone is that enmeshed in rage and hopelessness , they probably aren't going to be able to see anything else ahead but more rage and hopelessness.
Just darkness. That's hard for most to understand if they haven't experienced similar feelings.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
No matter what one thinks of Eric ,I think it is important to remember that that wasn't always the only goal he had for himself.
He once had other dreams and goals that he wrote about like joining the military, etc.

I just remember whe. He wrote that poem about 'I hate when someone opens their pop can just a little'. Such a small thing. But to think that helped ignite the rage.

@JlFox.
I agree that Eric was angered at times by small things but I don't see that poem as being angry in tone as it was a class assignment.

I've never tried looking for documents on the deep web, but I've always been interested in it. One day I will, I just need to get around to it (and cross my fingers for no child porn).

PaintItBlack wrote:

@JlFox,
Yes, it's tremendously sad but when someone is that enmeshed in rage and hopelessness , they probably aren't going to be able to see anything else ahead but more rage and hopelessness.
Just darkness. That's hard for most to understand if they haven't experienced similar feelings.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
No matter what one thinks of Eric ,I think it is important to remember that that wasn't always the only goal he had for himself.
He once had other dreams and goals that he wrote about like joining the military, etc.

I don't think that was his only goal, I have read his journals, I was just restating what he said himself. He did have a goal to destroy as much as possible at that time. So I don't think anyone could have changed his mind by the time April arrived he was already set on doing what he did.

I will admit the thought of someone like that joining our military scares me just a little bit. (it makes me think of the ones who have gone rogue and killed other people before killing themselves or being shot by police, same sort of scenario that Eric spoke about dying in that manner) But we will never really know what he would have done if he didn't become a mass murderer, its not like we can ask him after all.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
It's true that probably nothing could have persuaded him at that point.
Through rage, hopelessness, circumstances he and Dylan tragically got it in their heads that this was their destiny somehow which had fatal consequences for them and the others.
I've always thought that if Eric had been accepted into the military, it might have been the discipline and structure he needed and that could have helped to turn his life around.But you are right, we will never know what he might have done if he hadn't destroyed himself and others.
I guess what I've really been trying to get across is that a lot of people, probably even the majority,believe that E &D were doomed to either death or prison even if they hadn't acted on 4/20 and I don't subscribe to that theory.

PaintItBlack wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
It's true that probably nothing could have persuaded him at that point.
Through rage, hopelessness, circumstances he and Dylan tragically got it in their heads that this was their destiny somehow which had fatal consequences for them and the others.
I've always thought that if Eric had been accepted into the military, it might have been the discipline and structure he needed and that could have helped to turn his life around.But you are right, we will never know what he might have done if he hadn't destroyed himself and others.
I guess what I've really been trying to get across is that a lot of people, probably even the majority,believe that E &D were doomed to either death or prison even if they hadn't acted on 4/20 and I don't subscribe to that theory.

Yeah, I mean I still can't even fathom the entire thing. All of the planning and effort they put into it, for at least a year prior. But they were smart enough to fly under the radar of parents, friends, and teachers. That kind of effort isn't something to take lightly. They were pretty seriously planning for a long time. It just gets you thinking like how long had all of that anger been building up. It couldn't just be from high school. I think I read somewhere in Brooks Brown's book about him and Dylan in elementary school together and it really seems like they were born as genuine normal children. It just leaves me thinking, where did things change in their lives, at what point did they stop being "normal" children and turn into the people they became.

FlyerFan wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
It's true that probably nothing could have persuaded him at that point.
Through rage, hopelessness, circumstances he and Dylan tragically got it in their heads that this was their destiny somehow which had fatal consequences for them and the others.
I've always thought that if Eric had been accepted into the military, it might have been the discipline and structure he needed and that could have helped to turn his life around.But you are right, we will never know what he might have done if he hadn't destroyed himself and others.
I guess what I've really been trying to get across is that a lot of people, probably even the majority,believe that E &D were doomed to either death or prison even if they hadn't acted on 4/20 and I don't subscribe to that theory.

Yeah, I mean I still can't even fathom the entire thing. All of the planning and effort they put into it, for at least a year prior. But they were smart enough to fly under the radar of parents, friends, and teachers. That kind of effort isn't something to take lightly. They were pretty seriously planning for a long time. It just gets you thinking like how long had all of that anger been building up. It couldn't just be from high school. I think I read somewhere in Brooks Brown's book about him and Dylan in elementary school together and it really seems like they were born as genuine normal children. It just leaves me thinking, where did things change in their lives, at what point did they stop being "normal" children and turn into the people they became.

In the scope of "behavioral" vs "biological" I'd lean heavily towards "biological" issues driving both E&D towards their demise. I'm sure there were things in their family lives we don't know of that were challenging, but in the grand scope of things, they had a better upbringing than 98% of the world.

To get to the level of serial killer or mass murderer, one usually has an severe case of biological issues combined with extreme examples of dysfunction & abuse as a child. I just don't see extreme examples of issues with E&D from their early developmental years.

Fatheroftwo wrote:

FlyerFan wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
It's true that probably nothing could have persuaded him at that point.
Through rage, hopelessness, circumstances he and Dylan tragically got it in their heads that this was their destiny somehow which had fatal consequences for them and the others.
I've always thought that if Eric had been accepted into the military, it might have been the discipline and structure he needed and that could have helped to turn his life around.But you are right, we will never know what he might have done if he hadn't destroyed himself and others.
I guess what I've really been trying to get across is that a lot of people, probably even the majority,believe that E &D were doomed to either death or prison even if they hadn't acted on 4/20 and I don't subscribe to that theory.

Yeah, I mean I still can't even fathom the entire thing. All of the planning and effort they put into it, for at least a year prior. But they were smart enough to fly under the radar of parents, friends, and teachers. That kind of effort isn't something to take lightly. They were pretty seriously planning for a long time. It just gets you thinking like how long had all of that anger been building up. It couldn't just be from high school. I think I read somewhere in Brooks Brown's book about him and Dylan in elementary school together and it really seems like they were born as genuine normal children. It just leaves me thinking, where did things change in their lives, at what point did they stop being "normal" children and turn into the people they became.

In the scope of "behavioral" vs "biological" I'd lean heavily towards "biological" issues driving both E&D towards their demise.  I'm sure there were things in their family lives we don't know of that were challenging, but in the grand scope of things, they had a better upbringing than 98% of the world.

To get to the level of serial killer or mass murderer, one usually has an severe case of biological issues combined with extreme examples of dysfunction & abuse as a child.  I just don't see extreme examples of issues with E&D from their early developmental years.

Oh absolutely, I remember when they first started showing pictures of the homes of E&D on the news, phew. I mean my family wasn't poor but we lived in a small home and it certainly didn't look half as nice as their homes did. My mom actually commented "look at that house!? what is wrong with people that they have a nice life like that and do something crazy like this?"

But I see it all the time, outward appearances can be nice and good looking when inside they're quite the opposite.

PaintItBlack wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
It's true that probably nothing could have persuaded him at that point.
Through rage, hopelessness, circumstances he and Dylan tragically got it in their heads that this was their destiny somehow which had fatal consequences for them and the others.
I've always thought that if Eric had been accepted into the military, it might have been the discipline and structure he needed and that could have helped to turn his life around.But you are right, we will never know what he might have done if he hadn't destroyed himself and others.
I guess what I've really been trying to get across is that a lot of people, probably even the majority,believe that E &D were doomed to either death or prison even if they hadn't acted on 4/20 and I don't subscribe to that theory.

Just based on Eric's sadistic fantasies, I could honestly see him becoming a serial killer in some parallel universe where he did not kill himself in Columbine.

Venganza wrote:

Just based on Eric's sadistic fantasies, I could honestly see him becoming a serial killer in some parallel universe where he did not kill himself in Columbine.

Agreed. I can picture him picking off girls at night, probably because of some bitterness about his lack of love life. I can see his rage as he murders them. Maybe its just me, but I reckon it would be pretty feasible had NBK not happened.

eli27 wrote:

Venganza wrote:

Just based on Eric's sadistic fantasies, I could honestly see him becoming a serial killer in some parallel universe where he did not kill himself in Columbine.

Agreed. I can picture him picking off girls at night, probably because of some bitterness about his lack of love life. I can see his rage as he murders them. Maybe its just me, but I reckon it would be pretty feasible had NBK not happened.

No doubt EH would have been an obsessive/jealous bf or spouse that would have been a nightmare to deal with, & yes.. leading up to taking lives of those he felt hurt by or threatened by.

Gotta agree about Eric being a potential crazy boyfriend/husband. I'm not saying I agree with Cullen, but I do at least think that Eric had some more potent mental problems than Dylan. I think Eric had more of an ability to be manipulative and calculating, which is pretty characteristic of domestic abusers.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I can't seriously picture such a thing.I think there is just a good of a chance that Eric could have straightened his life out and improved his life if 4/20 hadn't happened.
Same for Dylan.
I know firsthand how a life can turn around.
As far as him being an abusive spouse,people on the old board used to swear the same would be true about Dylan.They used to swear that any girlfriend who displeased him would "soon feel the back of his hand."

PaintItBlack wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I can't seriously picture such a thing.I think there is just a good of a chance that Eric could have straightened his life out and improved his life if 4/20 hadn't happened.
Same for Dylan.
I know firsthand  how a life can turn around.
As far as him being an abusive spouse,people on the old board used to swear the same would be true about Dylan.They used to swear that any girlfriend who displeased him would "soon feel the back of his hand."

I feel like that's pretty off-base for Dylan. He had very low self-esteem and if a girlfriend upset him he would probably internalize it and think he wasn't good enough or wonder what he did to make her upset, etc.

True, but he did have a few instances where he was both verbally and physically abusive towards women

However, a stable relationship with the right woman may have changed all of that. I don't think anyone here can say that they're the same person that they were when they were a teenager. I know I've grown and changed in many ways. I think the same would go for both Eric and Dylan as well. I which direction they might have changed is still anyone's guess.

I'm curious to know if anyone on the post ever looked Columbine up on the deep web? I'm contemplating it but I'm scared haha not sure why?!

TaylorsMom wrote:

I'm curious to know if anyone on the post ever looked Columbine up on the deep web?  I'm contemplating it but I'm scared haha not sure why?!

There was apparently a mob of people hunting the Basement Tapes but I never thought they'd get anywhere.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I still haven't checked out the deepweb for any of this because of time restrictions, but I do believe that there is a lot we haven't seen that is just out of reach.
That 40GB of unreleased Columbine stuff mentioned in the other thread would fit much better into the picture when talked about in the context of the Deepweb.

Before trying to access it, I recommend you watch this video:

Believe it or not, there's a lot of random sensitive evidence that get put into PowerPoint presentations by law enforcement. Columbine made the careers of many different people, and a lot of those people went on to do book tours and lecture circuits. IDK if you could find the whole uncut basement tapes, but you might find snippets and clips from them. That's not even mentioning the different photos and other evidence that would have been unreleased.

I'm skeptical about the 4chan thing, but sometimes they've managed to do some pretty amazing stuff. Also, JEFFO was hacked a few years ago, so there was a time when their files weren't really locked down. That hack might have turned up some files that just haven't surfaced yet, since they busted the hacker who got into their system. If you really wanna see what's on their servers, just toss a few battered thumb drives (with key loggers on them) around in their parking lot and wait for the keystrokes to compile on a remote site. It worked for DHS...

Also, theres a distinction between the Dark web and the Deep web. The deep web is just the gigantic volumes of stuff that is visible to the web, but just not searched or indexed by browsers. The dark web is where you can buy guns, drugs, hit men etc.

I honestly don't think there is anything we haven't seen on the deepweb.
People act like its this big mystery area where all the classified and rare pictures and videos are,
when its really just child porn and drug websites. If the BT's or real death photos of the kids were on there, they would be on the regular web by now, even if it was just a few. There isn't even a screen shot of the BT's to even show they are out there. Unless someone gets their hands on this stuff from jeffco, or the FBI, it will stay un seen, trust me.

slippy123 wrote:

I honestly don't think there is anything we haven't seen on the deepweb.
People act like its this big mystery area where all the classified and rare pictures and videos are,
when its really just child porn and drug websites. If the BT's or real death photos of the kids were on there, they would be on the regular web by now, even if it was just a few. There isn't even a screen shot of the BT's to even show they are out there. Unless someone gets their hands on this stuff from jeffco, or the FBI, it will stay un seen, trust me.

I completely agree. If Jeffco have them securely tucked away, they probably aren't going to be swimming around on the deep web. If they were, as you said, they would probably be on the regular web too. There is always a tiny tiny chance, but really most people are just clinging for dear life to any little fragment of hope they can find.

I have to think that if even snippets of the BTs existed on the deep web or anywhere for that matter, we would have heard even a little bit about it. There aren't even rumors about this, as far as I know.

ThoughtBox wrote:

I have to think that if even snippets of the BTs existed on the deep web or anywhere for that matter, we would have heard even a little bit about it. There aren't even rumors about this, as far as I know.

I think the audio of the BT's should be released as public knowledge. Anything audio should be released.
If they don't want to release the videos, whatever, but we should be able to at least hear everything with our own ears,
not some transcripts that who knows how accurate they are. I still find discrepancies in different books of what they said.