Dylan's journal.

So the entire time that I've researched Columbine, I was under the impression that Dylan wanted to go 'NBK' with someone other than Eric Harris. Reading his journal, it is clear that Eric isn't who he refers to when wanting to kill people. All this time, I thought it was Zack Heckler. After re-reading Dylan's journal, I no longer think that it was Zack Heckler. It was the girl he was 'in love'. And knowing that, why he called it 'NBK' makes perfect sense. He wanted to do it with a girl, not a guy.

Dylan first talks about getting a gun on September 5, 1997. In this particular entry he talks only of using the gun on himself.

Dylan wrote:

[Edited] can get me that gun I hope, I wanna use it on a poor S.O.B. I know... his name is vodka, dylan is his name too.

The 2nd time Dylan mentions a gun was on November 3, 1997. This time he talks about how he himself will go on a killing spree.

Dylan wrote:

[edited] will get me a gun, ill go on my killing spree against anyone I want.

And finally, Dylan mentions going 'NBK' on February 2, 1998. But not with Eric and not with Zack but with a girl.

Dylan wrote:

Soon... either ill commit suicide, or I'll get w. [edited] & it will be NBK for us. My hapiness. her hapiness. NOTHING else matters.

Two months later, on April 10, 1998 Eric starts his journal.

So, there you have it. 'NBK' was not supposed to be between 2 guys, it was something Dylan wanted to do with a girl he thought he was in love with, just like the movie. When he realized that most likely was not going to happen, he went to the next best thing and that was Eric.

That's so striking. I bet no one else ever thought about that before. I think it's a possibility everyone interested in this case should consider. That would be another proof that Dylan wasn't a follower and that he even decided the name of their "mission" and this matches with the fact that he really loved that movie. So, this picture has all the pieces fixed.

That's a pretty amazing find! I'm not too "up" with Columbine research but goes to show why this forum is important So who do you think the girl was?

It was from Sue's book that shows the redacted part in this journal entry was a female name:


February 2 1998:

Soon, either I’ll commit suicide or I’ll get with [redacted girl's name] and it will be NBK for us.


January 20 1999:

Maybe going “NBK” (gawd) with Eric is the way to break free.


Like Jenn, I also found the redacted female name interesting.

People have mentioned Dylan possibly wanting to go on a shooting spree with a girl before, but it's been widely thought that his original plan was to go on a shooting spree with Zack Heckler and that he later just mentions maybe doing it with a girl instead because he and Zack were growing apart because Zack started dating Devon.

Last night, I re-read Dylan's entire journal to try and get to the bottom of this and I realized that Dylan did not start talking excessively about suicide , his own shooting spree and then finally going 'NBK' with a girl until after Zack stopped spending time with him. The only thing he referred to doing with Zack was the 'missions' and we know from Eric's journals that the missions were just gluing key locks, throwing toilet paper and things like that (not a shooting spree).

I get the impression that Zack's 'moving on' brought out even more suicidal depression in Dylan and considering he found 'true love' not long after Zack got a girlfriend that he wanted what Zack had.

After putting the pieces to this puzzle together, I am even more positive now that this idea was in fact Dylan's and that he is the one who named it 'NBK' because his original idea was to do it with the girl he was in love with, not Eric.

sororityalpha wrote:

Like Jenn, I also found the redacted female name interesting.

I always had the feeling in the back of my mind that MAYBE it was the type of girl that would at least be interested in pursuing violence in her lifetime and that allowed him to consider that thought. Someone who is more tomboy-ish. I can't REALLY imagine him thinking a dorky or just a very calm girl would do that. Now with the theory in mind that if he wasn't disintegrating mentally , I'd say his target NBK girl was someone interested in guns/badass violent movies , maybe even had a fight or two in the school. If he really imagined some girl who is so 'pure' (aka very non-violent, quiet , docile) would go NBK then I would say he was really breaking apart psychologically.

The fact that he says pure is odd though. I wonder if he had a set in stone taste for women or it varied. Sadly we can't know , thus some questions will never be answered. Something tells me it's very probable she was the really docile/feminine/harmless type (the one he wanted to go NBK with).



Also kinda off-topic but heck. I truly believe that Dylan was doomed from the start because of the fact that he said " REDACTED is the newest and purest"(aka he moved from crushing on different girls often). I can only imagine he'd get with someone , that someone wouldn't be good enough and would move onto looking for someone else. Those kind of people are dangerous in relationships, especially for their partners who will be heartbroken. I don't think anyone really wants to be with someone who changes their mind so often.

We can't determine who the leader was based on the journals, because the journals do not reflect their every thought. Eric might have had the thought and not written it down. We don't know.

We do know that Eric wrote a lot more about shooting.

lasttrain wrote:

We can't determine who the leader was based on the journals, because the journals do not reflect their every thought.  Eric might have had the thought and not written it down.  We don't know.

We do know that Eric wrote a lot more about shooting.

Yet you're willing to accept the whole 'Eric was a psychopath and Dylan a suicidal depressive' based on their journals? An entire mental health analysis of their entire lives based on a journal but not whose idea the shooting was based on who said it first? And the fact that not only did Dylan say it first but he said he wanted to do it with a girl at first, not Eric. Actually Dylan said he wanted to go on a shooting spree alone at first and then talked about doing it with a girl.

And then much...much later, he said that 'maybe' he should do it with Eric.

Please share with me [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] why it is acceptable to come to the conclusion (the most extreme conclusion) about their mental health from their journal but when pertaining to whose idea the shooting was, you're all like 'oh no, no, no we cannot use their journals for that because we have no idea what they were thinking'? Even though, Dylan wrote it down in black and white 'If I don't commit suicide then I am going to get together (with that girl) and it'll be NBK for us'.

lasttrain wrote:

We can't determine who the leader was based on the journals, because the journals do not reflect their every thought.  Eric might have had the thought and not written it down.  We don't know.

We do know that Eric wrote a lot more about shooting.

Do you know [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] that you are a huge hypocrite? And congratulations on your excellent cherry picking.

I was going to say that I can't take you seriously anymore, but then I realised that I never have.

The good thing about journals is people seem to be themselves, and write how they really feel, with no holds barred. It's very easy to be fake when you're around people, and deceive them on how you really feel. So to me the journals are a very good source of material to be analyzed. To bad we can't find Dylan's journal completely underacted. I'd love to see who the girl he is talking about is.

I think what lasttrain is trying to say is that, Eric might of well made up NBK or talked about it first, but Dylan was the first to write about it. Maybe Dylan even mentioned he started a journal and Eric copied him, seeing it only being a short time from when Dylan started his to when Eric started writing his own.

Quote :

And finally, Dylan mentions going 'NBK' on February 2, 1998. But not with Eric and not with Zack but with a girl.

Dylan wrote:

Soon... either ill commit suicide, or I'll get w. [edited] & it will be NBK for us. My hapiness. her hapiness. NOTHING else matters.

I thought this entry was 2/2/1999?

browneyes11 wrote:

Quote :

And finally, Dylan mentions going 'NBK' on February 2, 1998. But not with Eric and not with Zack but with a girl.

Dylan wrote:

Soon... either ill commit suicide, or I'll get w. [edited] & it will be NBK for us. My hapiness. her hapiness. NOTHING else matters.

I thought this entry was 2/2/1999?

Dylan's handwriting is pretty messy so I circled the date and the quote.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Oh thanks for the clarification! That's really interesting when you look at the time line.

Dylan didn’t even consider Eric as his friend a few months earlier in an entry (July 23, 1997) when Zach was spending more time with his new girlfriend, Dylan said that he felt so lonely without a friend (Zach).

When Dylan for the first mentions “my killing spree” in his journal (November 3, 1997) he also mentions that “Eric will be getting further away soon” in the same entry. That is very interesting! If Eric wants to go on a killing spree, why would they (according to Dylan) start to drift apart? And notice that Dylan writes "my killing spree". MY.

It sure was Dylan's idea.

"Pure" can mean lots of things. Dylan used words in unconventional ways, maybe purity to him could include violent tendencies.

Dylan Klebold wrote:

I am purity. Darkness. Romanticism. Professionalism. Existence. Complacence. Power. Pain. Everything is black. I am everything.

Not to mention the "Holy April Morning" of slaughtering his classmates and killing himself. Holy?

slippy123 wrote:

The good thing about journals is people seem to be themselves, and write how they really feel, with no holds barred. It's very easy to be fake when you're around people, and deceive them on how you really feel. So to me the journals are a very good source of material to be analyzed. To bad we can't find Dylan's journal completely underacted. I'd love to see who the girl he is talking about is.

I very much disagree with you on this one. The boys knew they were going NBK, and they knew that everything they left behind would in effect be their 'legacy', so it would likely have been important to them to create a certain image through their journals (and perhaps through the basement tapes as well). Creating the personas of 'REB' and 'VoDKA' was much more important to them than making sure every page of writing was true to themselves. They wanted to be something that they weren't yet when making these journals, so they may well have modified themselves and their writings to fit this. In this way, everything from the journals to the home videos could be the same. I cannot say for sure, but I wouldn't call them 100% reliable in studying either Eric or Dylan.

Thanks Jenn for posting this, I hadn't thought about this as well, and despite being a huge movie fan, the NBK thing involving a guy and a girl went totally over my head! It's like one of those things that you don't seem to notice, but seems so obvious once you actually recognize it for what it is! This really sheds a whole new light on so many things, and allows for new interpretations of previously held ideas. Now this is what I meant when I asked in another thread, "Is there anything else to discover?" Your comments here seem to suggest that the answer is, "Yes!"

ThoughtBox wrote:

Thanks Jenn for posting this, I hadn't thought about this as well, and despite being a huge movie fan, the NBK thing involving a guy and a girl went totally over my head! It's like one of those things that you don't seem to notice, but seems so obvious once you actually recognize it for what it is! This really sheds a whole new light on so many things, and allows for new interpretations of previously held ideas. Now this is what I meant when I asked in another thread, "Is there anything else to discover?" Your comments here seem to suggest that the answer is, "Yes!"

See? Aren't you glad you stuck around? And now this puts the 'oh gawd' comment by Dylan into a new light (for me) as well. Like many others, I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt (at the time) that Dylan was saying 'oh gawd' as in the idea of actually killing people. But now, I'm thinking he wasn't questioning actually doing it, he was questioning doing it with a guy. As in 'oh gawd, I can't believe I'm actually considering doing this with a guy when it's meant to be between a man and women who are in love with each other'.

And we all know how much Dylan wanted to be with his true love. 'NBK' was a murder/suicide mission Dylan wanted to go on with the love of his life, not with Eric. Later, when he realized that wasn't going to happen, he settled for a murder/suicide mission with Eric.

Jenn wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

Thanks Jenn for posting this, I hadn't thought about this as well, and despite being a huge movie fan, the NBK thing involving a guy and a girl went totally over my head! It's like one of those things that you don't seem to notice, but seems so obvious once you actually recognize it for what it is! This really sheds a whole new light on so many things, and allows for new interpretations of previously held ideas. Now this is what I meant when I asked in another thread, "Is there anything else to discover?" Your comments here seem to suggest that the answer is, "Yes!"

See? Aren't you glad you stuck around? And now this puts the 'oh gawd' comment by Dylan into a new light (for me) as well. Like many others, I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt (at the time) that Dylan was saying 'oh gawd' as in the idea of actually killing people. But now, I'm thinking he wasn't questioning actually doing it, he was questioning doing it with a guy. As in 'oh gawd, I can't believe I'm actually considering doing this with a guy when it's meant to be between a man and women who are in love with each other'.

And we all know how much Dylan wanted to be with his true love. 'NBK' was a murder/suicide mission Dylan wanted to go on with the love of his life, not with Eric. Later, when he realized that wasn't going to happen, he settled for a murder/suicide mission with Eric.

Absolutely, Yes! I have previously started a thread on the "going NBK (gawd)" comment because I found it so confusing. This now makes perfect sense as you describe it. I had opined that the gawd comment meant that he was incredulous that Eric was so keen on doing it, and he wasn't as interested in NBK, but I really feel like you have hit upon something here, and that is nothing more than one of the more important, more interesting, and more compelling facets of this tragedy. This thread should be stickied! Kudos to you Jenn.

eli27 wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

The good thing about journals is people seem to be themselves, and write how they really feel, with no holds barred. It's very easy to be fake when you're around people, and deceive them on how you really feel. So to me the journals are a very good source of material to be analyzed. To bad we can't find Dylan's journal completely underacted. I'd love to see who the girl he is talking about is.

I very much disagree with you on this one. The boys knew they were going NBK, and they knew that everything they left behind would in effect be their 'legacy', so it would likely have been important to them to create a certain image through their journals (and perhaps through the basement tapes as well). Creating the personas of 'REB' and 'VoDKA' was much more important to them than making sure every page of writing was true to themselves. They wanted to be something that they weren't yet when making these journals, so they may well have modified themselves and their writings to fit this. In this way, everything from the journals to the home videos could be the same. I cannot say for sure, but I wouldn't call them 100% reliable in studying either Eric or Dylan.

I agree 100%. Their alter egos were just as much a part of NBK as the attack itself. I think taking on the personas of Reb and Vodka made planning and going through with the attack easier.

Question though: Do you think Dylan meant for his journal to be read? The Dylan we hear about on the BT seems so different than the Dylan whos thoughts we read in the journal. I'm starting to think Dylan left it to "balance out" our view of him, like he wanted us to know he was at least capable of being decent and feeling love. Sure there's talk of NBK and killing throughout, but those come off more as "poor pitiful me" remarks than actual concrete plans (until the last few entries of course). I've always wondered if Dylan cared about his image as much as Eric did his, or if it was all an act to get Eric foaming at the mouth. After reading Sues book Dylan's anger on the BT seems more like a manipulation of Eric than forceful posturing.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Jenn wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

Thanks Jenn for posting this, I hadn't thought about this as well, and despite being a huge movie fan, the NBK thing involving a guy and a girl went totally over my head! It's like one of those things that you don't seem to notice, but seems so obvious once you actually recognize it for what it is! This really sheds a whole new light on so many things, and allows for new interpretations of previously held ideas. Now this is what I meant when I asked in another thread, "Is there anything else to discover?" Your comments here seem to suggest that the answer is, "Yes!"

See? Aren't you glad you stuck around? And now this puts the 'oh gawd' comment by Dylan into a new light (for me) as well. Like many others, I'm sure I'm not the only one who felt (at the time) that Dylan was saying 'oh gawd' as in the idea of actually killing people. But now, I'm thinking he wasn't questioning actually doing it, he was questioning doing it with a guy. As in 'oh gawd, I can't believe I'm actually considering doing this with a guy when it's meant to be between a man and women who are in love with each other'.

And we all know how much Dylan wanted to be with his true love. 'NBK' was a murder/suicide mission Dylan wanted to go on with the love of his life, not with Eric. Later, when he realized that wasn't going to happen, he settled for a murder/suicide mission with Eric.

Absolutely, Yes! I have previously started a thread on the "going NBK (gawd)" comment because I found it so confusing. This now makes perfect sense as you describe it. I had opined that the gawd comment meant that he was incredulous that Eric was so keen on doing it, and he wasn't as interested in NBK, but I really feel like you have hit upon something here, and that is nothing more than one of the more important, more interesting, and more compelling facets of this tragedy. This thread should be stickied! Kudos to you Jenn.

Thank you and yes, I will sticky it.

I guess it boils down to the fact that Dylan saw Eric as a poor man's substitute for "his love" in going through with NBK. But at least, to Dylan's mind, I think, Eric was better than nothing.

Jenn wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

We can't determine who the leader was based on the journals, because the journals do not reflect their every thought.  Eric might have had the thought and not written it down.  We don't know.

We do know that Eric wrote a lot more about shooting.

Yet you're willing to accept the whole 'Eric was a psychopath and Dylan a suicidal depressive' based on their journals? An entire mental health analysis of their entire lives based on a journal but not whose idea the shooting was based on who said it first? And the fact that not only did Dylan say it first but he said he wanted to do it with a girl at first, not Eric. Actually Dylan said he wanted to go on a shooting spree alone at first and then talked about doing it with a girl.

And then much...much later, he said that 'maybe' he should do it with Eric.

Please share with me [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] why it is acceptable to come to the conclusion (the most extreme conclusion) about their mental health from their journal but when pertaining to whose idea the shooting was, you're all like 'oh no, no, no we cannot use their journals for that because we have no idea what they were thinking'? Even though, Dylan wrote it down in black and white 'If I don't commit suicide then I am going to get together (with that girl) and it'll be NBK for us'.

I think you can diagnose their mental health from the overall pattern of the journals, but I don't think you can tell who had the idea for the shooting first.

That would be like saying Dylan mentions girls first in his journal so he was the first one to take an interest in the opposite sex.  

The truth is we don't know who first had the idea.  Could've been Eric years before.  Or Dylan long before even he wrote it down.

Dylan mentioning it first shows that he was invested in the idea of a mass public shooting, but his small handful of mentions do not carry much weight beside Eric's extended fantasies and planning. What they planned for the actual day is very close to Eric's journals, but does not at all resemble Dylan's fantasies of a male/female NBK. To me another sign Eric is the leader.

lasttrain wrote:

Jenn wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

We can't determine who the leader was based on the journals, because the journals do not reflect their every thought.  Eric might have had the thought and not written it down.  We don't know.

We do know that Eric wrote a lot more about shooting.

Yet you're willing to accept the whole 'Eric was a psychopath and Dylan a suicidal depressive' based on their journals? An entire mental health analysis of their entire lives based on a journal but not whose idea the shooting was based on who said it first? And the fact that not only did Dylan say it first but he said he wanted to do it with a girl at first, not Eric. Actually Dylan said he wanted to go on a shooting spree alone at first and then talked about doing it with a girl.

And then much...much later, he said that 'maybe' he should do it with Eric.

Please share with me [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] why it is acceptable to come to the conclusion (the most extreme conclusion) about their mental health from their journal but when pertaining to whose idea the shooting was, you're all like 'oh no, no, no we cannot use their journals for that because we have no idea what they were thinking'? Even though, Dylan wrote it down in black and white 'If I don't commit suicide then I am going to get together (with that girl) and it'll be NBK for us'.

I think you can diagnose their mental health from the overall pattern of the journals, but I don't think you can tell who had the idea for the shooting first.

That would be like saying Dylan mentions girls first in his journal so he was the first one to take an interest in the opposite sex.  

The truth is we don't know who first had the idea.  Could've been Eric years before.  Or Dylan long before even he wrote it down.

Dylan mentioning it first shows that he was invested in the idea of a mass public shooting, but his small handful of mentions do not carry much weight beside Eric's extended fantasies and planning.  What they planned for the actual day is very close to Eric's journals, but does not at all resemble Dylan's fantasies of a male/female NBK.  To me another sign Eric is the leader.

First of all, there is no way in Hell that you can diagnose someone from what they wrote down in their journals. Especially in a situation like this where Eric has openly said that he wants to be famous and remembered. It is very, very clear (to me, at least) that most of the stuff Eric wrote down was just bullshit. Him trying to make himself look tough. The way he acted in the Basement Tapes, in the Cafeteria video with his friends, and around actual kids was completely different than what he said in his journal. His journal (for the most part) was all an act. Why you are in denial about this is beyond me. The proof is right in front of you. Everything else we know about Eric totally contradicts the stuff he wrote down in his journal.

Second, how much more proof do you need to know that this was Dylan's idea? Dylan and Eric NAMED the stupid thing 'NBK'. A name that Dylan came up with. Dylan's idea that he wanted to originally carry out with a girl, NOT with Eric. Why do you keep going around in circles about what I am saying?

Something like this is not comparable to a boy liking a girl. All teenage boys like girls at some point in time during high school. That is normal teenage behavior. Deciding to go on a killing spree is not. Eric showed no signs of any kind of behavioral problems before Dylan brought the idea of the shooting spree to him. You mean to tell me that Eric had the same exact thoughts years before he started writing it down? I'm not buying it. This was something that Eric never talked about and never wrote about until after Dylan did.

And how does the plan not resemble what Dylan wrote down. Dylan said that it will be 'NBK for us'. And what ended up happening? It was 'NBK for them'. The only difference is that Dylan ended up carrying it out with Eric instead of his dream girl. How you can say that doesn't resemble what Dylan wrote down that he wanted to do is beyond me. Dylan said he was gonna go NBK and he did. He did it with Eric. Dylan's idea was carried out with Eric because that was the best that he could find. Zack wasn't gonna do it with him, his dream girl wasn't gonna do it with him so that left Eric. I have given tons and tons of proof that Eric was the follower of Dylan.

I believe, 100%, that what I am saying is the truth. I always questioned this and in the beginning I bought into the whole Cullen theory too but then I did my own research and my own digging and the proof is right there in Dylan's journal. He thought of NBK. He thought of it over a year before he brought the idea to Eric. He wanted to do it with a girl. When he realized that was not going to happen, he went to Eric. Eric following him, as he did with everything else, agreed and they named it NBK, the name Dylan came up with.

You can talk in circles as much as you want and completely ignore what I am saying but what I am putting on the table makes a lot more sense and all the evidence I've used to back it up makes the pieces of this puzzle fit. What you're suggesting does not.

I realize there is no way to know for sure because both of the people who could answer this have been dead for nearly 20 years. I get that. But when looking for an answer as to how the idea was born, what I am saying, in my own opinion, is the most logical explanation. And while some of you don't agree with me, nobody has given me any explanation that would make sense as to how what I am saying doesn't add up.

I have laid this out for you in black and white, backing it up with proof. If you decide to ignore it because it isn't the answer you want to hear, then that's fine. But any true researcher should be interested in finding out the truth, not try to pick and choose evidence to make the outcome what you want it to be. Dylan was not a follower. Dylan came up with the idea. The idea was born because of Dylan, not Eric.

lasttrain wrote:

Jenn wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

We can't determine who the leader was based on the journals, because the journals do not reflect their every thought.  Eric might have had the thought and not written it down.  We don't know.

We do know that Eric wrote a lot more about shooting.

Yet you're willing to accept the whole 'Eric was a psychopath and Dylan a suicidal depressive' based on their journals? An entire mental health analysis of their entire lives based on a journal but not whose idea the shooting was based on who said it first? And the fact that not only did Dylan say it first but he said he wanted to do it with a girl at first, not Eric. Actually Dylan said he wanted to go on a shooting spree alone at first and then talked about doing it with a girl.

And then much...much later, he said that 'maybe' he should do it with Eric.

Please share with me [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] why it is acceptable to come to the conclusion (the most extreme conclusion) about their mental health from their journal but when pertaining to whose idea the shooting was, you're all like 'oh no, no, no we cannot use their journals for that because we have no idea what they were thinking'? Even though, Dylan wrote it down in black and white 'If I don't commit suicide then I am going to get together (with that girl) and it'll be NBK for us'.

I think you can diagnose their mental health from the overall pattern of the journals, but I don't think you can tell who had the idea for the shooting first.

That would be like saying Dylan mentions girls first in his journal so he was the first one to take an interest in the opposite sex.  

The truth is we don't know who first had the idea.  Could've been Eric years before.  Or Dylan long before even he wrote it down.

Dylan mentioning it first shows that he was invested in the idea of a mass public shooting, but his small handful of mentions do not carry much weight beside Eric's extended fantasies and planning.  What they planned for the actual day is very close to Eric's journals, but does not at all resemble Dylan's fantasies of a male/female NBK.  To me another sign Eric is the leader.

Agree with the whole consensus on ideas being said or thought of, before they wrote that in their diary.
It's completely plausible that certain things written in their diary were older thoughts.
Although it would seem from the way its worded, its not 100% face that Dylan wanted to shoot up the school with his dream girl.
This info was just posted not to long ago, and as far as I know there never was a mention of this before.

I also think NBK, was something in their minds at first. Like a what if scenario that got rid of all the, jocks, idiots, minorities, and all the other things Eric listed in his diary.
It manifested from that, into a full blown killing spree.

Eric's writings are extended homicidal fantasies, with a few scattered references to depression.

Dylan's writings are extended accounts of depression, with a few scattered references to a shooting.

I conclude from this that Eric is the one who was more obsessed with the shooting.  It's a totally reasonable conclusion.  Look at how many words Eric spends describing the shooting versus how many Dylan does.  It's not even in the same ballpark. Dylan cares more about this girl.  

If you want to use the writings as a reference Jenn, you have to look at the bulk of the writings, not just one or two quotes cherry-picked from Dylan's journal.

lasttrain wrote:

Eric's writings are extended homicidal fantasies, with a few scattered references to depression.

Dylan's writings are extended accounts of depression, with a few scattered references to a shooting.

I conclude from this that Eric is the one who was more obsessed with the shooting.  It's a totally reasonable conclusion.  Look at how many words Eric spends describing the shooting versus how many Dylan does.  It's not even in the same ballpark.  Dylan cares more about this girl.  

If you want to use the writings as a reference Jenn, you have to look at the bulk of the writings, not just one or two quotes cherry-picked from Dylan's journal.

I am not talking about who is more obsessed or who wrote about killing more. What I am talking about is who came up with the idea. And that was Dylan. Dylan is the one who wrote about it first. Dylan is the one who named it 'NBK' and Dylan is the one who wanted to go on a shooting spree with a girl NOT with Eric. And as much as you wanna talk in circles around that, the proof is right there in front you. You are the one who is 'cherry picking' to make the outcome what you want it to be, not what the truth is. You can disagree with me all you want but you have not given any valid proof to back up that this was Eric's idea and that is because it wasn't. It was Dylan's.

And so what if Dylan wrote more about depression and 'not that much' about a shooting? What's that even supposed to mean? That Dylan is less responsible for the shooting? I don't think so. Again, it was HIS idea. His idea that he came up with over his obsession with movies he'd been watching. You know, the movies from where he got the idea? The movies whose soundtrack he was dancing around to in his car with Nate?

Dylan was there on 4/20 because he came up with the plan. Sure, Eric may have put it into motion and that was because Dylan was lazy at the planning and preparing. Not because he was having second thoughts or wanted to back out. He had every intention on being there and was more cruel and violent when they were carrying it out.

Just because Dylan drew hearts in his journal, constantly threw a pity party and whined and complained about not being able to 'find love' does not make him any less of a murderer than Eric. If Eric is a 'psychopath' then so is Dylan.

Dylan was not some weak little follower. He came up with the idea and murdered people just like Eric did. Who talked about it more is completely irrelevant because they BOTH ended up committing murder in the end. You try to remember that the next time you wanna try and make Dylan out to be less guilty than Eric.

Jenn wrote:

Dylan was there on 4/20 because he came up with the plan. Sure, Eric may have put it into motion and that was because Dylan was lazy at the planning and preparing. Not because he was having second thoughts or wanted to back out. He had every intention on being there and was more cruel and violent when they were carrying it out.

Just because Dylan drew hearts in his journal, constantly threw a pity party and whined and complained about not being able to 'find love' does not make him any less of a murderer than Eric. If Eric is a 'psychopath' then so is Dylan.

Dylan was not some weak little follower. He came up with the idea and murdered people just like Eric did. Who talked about it more is completely irrelevant because they BOTH ended up committing murder in the end. You try to remember that the next time you wanna try and make Dylan out to be less guilty than Eric.

Yes, the fact he was more violent and seemed to enjoy it much more than Eric is one of the strongest pieces of evidence to me that this was the culmination of a long-awaited and anticipated plan, something he must have been thinking about for a long time.

I really like what you say here [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] in this reply. Susan Klebold, for very obvious reasons, does not wish to believe the apparent syllogism that you set out clearly here, namely, "If Eric is a 'psychopath' then so is Dylan." It's much easier to drink the Cullen-Aid (much less tastier than Kool-Aid, I might add) and believe little ole Dylan (aw, shucks) was just drawn into the whole shitty deal by that awful meanie Eric Harris.

The fact that Dylan mentioned it first is not evidence that he came up with it. Their diaries were occasional records and not a perfect list of the order of their thoughts.

They probably came up with the idea independently and then discovered the other was thinking the same thing. I mean do you really believe it had never occurred to Eric Harris to shoot up the school before he discussed it with Dylan?

Jenn wrote:

You try to remember that the next time you wanna try and make Dylan out to be less guilty than Eric.

Can you point me to the post in our archive where I say Dylan was "less guilty" than Eric?

ThoughtBox wrote:

Yes, the fact he was more violent and seemed to enjoy it much more than Eric is one of the strongest pieces of evidence to me that this was the culmination of a long-awaited and anticipated plan, something he must have been thinking about for a long time.

My problem with this is that Dylan in his journals never writes much of a concrete plan.  Whereas Eric's journals are full of different plans many of which resemble what they tried to do during the massacre.  I see Eric as the planner because his journals intersect with what actually happened. More evidence he was the leader too.

ThoughtBox wrote:

It's much easier to drink the Cullen-Aid (much less tastier than Kool-Aid, I might add) and believe little ole Dylan (aw, shucks) was just drawn into the whole shitty deal by that awful meanie Eric Harris.

If this is your interpretation of my position, could you quote a post where I have said anything remotely like it?  Or are you engaging in a straw man argument?

I think the problem with people seeing Eric as the leader is that it implies Dylan was more innocent than Eric and was just roped into it, which is completely false.

A follower can contribute just as much to doing something as a leader can.

lasttrain wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

Yes, the fact he was more violent and seemed to enjoy it much more than Eric is one of the strongest pieces of evidence to me that this was the culmination of a long-awaited and anticipated plan, something he must have been thinking about for a long time.

My problem with this is that Dylan in his journals never writes much of a concrete plan.  Whereas Eric's journals are full of different plans many of which resemble what they tried to do during the massacre.  I see Eric as the planner because his journals intersect with what actually happened.  More evidence he was the leader too.

ThoughtBox wrote:

It's much easier to drink the Cullen-Aid (much less tastier than Kool-Aid, I might add) and believe little ole Dylan (aw, shucks) was just drawn into the whole shitty deal by that awful meanie Eric Harris.

Actually, the above are just my own thoughts about the relationship in general as viewed by others. I really didn't read any of your posts tbph.

If this is your interpretation of my position, could you quote a post where I have said anything remotely like it?  Or are you engaging in a straw man argument?

Actually, the above are just my own thoughts about the relationship in general as viewed by others. I really didn't read any of your posts tbph. I'm sure you're not the only person who would disagree with what I believe to be the solid presupposition put forth in this excellent thread.

I'm on Jenn's side with this one.

Two things I would like to point out.

1) Just because Eric wrote in more detail doesn't mean Dylan was less into it. Eric wrote in more detail becusse he wrote it with the intention of being read and for added shock value (side note: I write very detailed fantasies in my journals all the time, doesn't mean I'm really into it, I can be a form of catharsis for some people.)

2) I don't know if anyone saw my post on the "Dylan is a psychopath" thread but I genuinely believe Dylan was more psychopathic than Eric because despite the evidence and cold hard facts people STILL want to believe Dylan was an innocent lost lamb who was coerced into it and still comes out looking better than Eric. how the fuck does that happen?!


I know we can't diagnose and I'm no professional ... But THINK about it guys...

astrospace92 wrote:

I'm on Jenn's side with this one.

Two things I would like to point out.

1) Just because Eric wrote in more detail doesn't mean Dylan was less into it. Eric wrote in more detail becusse he wrote it with the intention of being read and for added shock value (side note: I write very detailed fantasies in my journals all the time, doesn't mean I'm really into it, I can be a form of catharsis for some people.)

2) I don't know if anyone saw my post on the "Dylan is a psychopath" thread but I genuinely believe Dylan was more psychopathic than Eric because despite the evidence and cold hard facts people STILL want to believe Dylan was an innocent lost lamb who was coerced into it and still comes out looking better than Eric. how the fuck does that happen?!


I know we can't diagnose and I'm no professional ... But THINK about it guys...

Indeed. To your points...

1) Dylan was a bit of a lazy SOB. I'm surprised he even wrote as much in his journal as he did.

2) Yes, Dylan "wins" in the long run it seems because even to this day there are people who believe Eric was the real mastermind behind the whole damnable thing.  
Klebold 1, Harris 0

ThoughtBox wrote:

astrospace92 wrote:

I'm on Jenn's side with this one.

Two things I would like to point out.

1) Just because Eric wrote in more detail doesn't mean Dylan was less into it. Eric wrote in more detail becusse he wrote it with the intention of being read and for added shock value (side note: I write very detailed fantasies in my journals all the time, doesn't mean I'm really into it, I can be a form of catharsis for some people.)

2) I don't know if anyone saw my post on the "Dylan is a psychopath" thread but I genuinely believe Dylan was more psychopathic than Eric because despite the evidence and cold hard facts people STILL want to believe Dylan was an innocent lost lamb who was coerced into it and still comes out looking better than Eric. how the fuck does that happen?!


I know we can't diagnose and I'm no professional ... But THINK about it guys...

Indeed. To your points...

1) Dylan was a bit of a lazy SOB. I'm surprised he even wrote as much in his journal as he did.

2) Yes, Dylan "wins" in the long run it seems because even to this day there are people who believe Eric was the real mastermind behind the whole damnable thing.    Klebold 1, Harris 0

This even includes Dylan's own mother.

ThoughtBox wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

astrospace92 wrote:

I'm on Jenn's side with this one.

Two things I would like to point out.

1) Just because Eric wrote in more detail doesn't mean Dylan was less into it. Eric wrote in more detail becusse he wrote it with the intention of being read and for added shock value (side note: I write very detailed fantasies in my journals all the time, doesn't mean I'm really into it, I can be a form of catharsis for some people.)

2) I don't know if anyone saw my post on the "Dylan is a psychopath" thread but I genuinely believe Dylan was more psychopathic than Eric because despite the evidence and cold hard facts people STILL want to believe Dylan was an innocent lost lamb who was coerced into it and still comes out looking better than Eric. how the fuck does that happen?!


I know we can't diagnose and I'm no professional ... But THINK about it guys...

Indeed. To your points...

1) Dylan was a bit of a lazy SOB. I'm surprised he even wrote as much in his journal as he did.

2) Yes, Dylan "wins" in the long run it seems because even to this day there are people who believe Eric was the real mastermind behind the whole damnable thing.    Klebold 1, Harris 0

This even includes Dylan's own mother.  

It's one of the reasons I think Sue wanted the tapes to be destroyed, because it will shatter the illusion.

There is no illusion about Dylan Klebold. Saying he had a different mental illness than Eric did is just scientifically accurate. It doesn't relieve Dylan of moral responsibility, certainly.

According to Sues book Dylan didnt have an actual journal. The "journal" we got is a compilation of loose papers found stuffed away in various folders and notebooks thought his bedroom. I think Dylan may have forgotten about them or was to lazy to dig them all out to destroy like his hard drive. Hey may have even had a real journal like Eric that he pitched before the attack.

I'm honestly starting to think that Dylan really did care about his image after all. Unlike Eric he wore his coat at all times no matter the weather or temperature outside. He wore glasses like Harrelson in Natural Born Killers. It makes perfect sense that he'd name the attack after his favorite movie. Devon Adams has even tried to set the record straight about the whole "Dylan followed Eric" theory:

"Oddly, it was Eric who would copy everything Dylan did, which made Dylan so angry. But it was Eric's stronger and more violent personality that won Dylan over."

To me that sounds like Eric was Dylan's follower, and Dylan tolerated it because of Erics anger. I just can't see it happening the other way around no matter how much I try.

I'm confused.
With all the extensive research done of the last 17 years, why hasn't someone picked up that it was Dylan's idea much earlier?

limpfisch wrote:

I'm confused.
With all the extensive research done of the last 17 years, why hasn't someone picked up that it was Dylan's idea much earlier?

People have but the voice of people like Cullen tends to be louder. They come in saying that Dylan was a follower and it was Eric's idea and drown everything else out.

There are no journal entries of Eric's prior to what we have seen so I guess technically Eric could have had NBK thoughts first but I think looking at Dylan and his writing style, that it was his idea first.

limpfisch wrote:

I'm confused.
With all the extensive research done of the last 17 years, why hasn't someone picked up that it was Dylan's idea much earlier?

Excellent question. Sometimes though, the most obvious things are often the hardest to see.

To me, this particular thread is one of the most interesting, and most thought-provoking ones in this entire forum.

Not to bump an old thread but I have been thinking about this a ton lately. It makes a lot of sense to me

Thanks for the bump [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], cause this was one of the threads I first read upon finding this forum and began learning alot from. Excellent theories and discussions.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Thanks for the bump [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], cause this was one of the threads I first read upon finding this forum and began learning alot from. Excellent theories and discussions.

I just can't get over this topic it seems.  I find it ironic that so many think Dylan was a follower when it seems in reality Eric if anyone was a follower.  I think a lot of their odd interests (dark clothing, music etc) was perhaps both following Morris but other than that....

I think Eric was into guns/shooting/violence even before discussing with Dylan but I think it was a very hypothetical thing.  He was upset that people made fun of him and treated him poorly so he fantasized killing them.  But I don't think he would ever have killed anyone without the push of Dylan.  

Keep piling on the hate right?  I personally think regardless of body count that Dylan was the scarier of the 2 that day.  Thinking of him smiling while killing people is just OMFG scary to me.  

Outwardly Dylan appeared to be a follower.  Just another way he tricked everyone.

Lizpuff wrote:

I just can't get over this topic it seems.  I find it ironic that so many think Dylan was a follower when it seems in reality Eric if anyone was a follower.  I think a lot of their odd interests (dark clothing, music etc) was perhaps both following Morris but other than that....

I think Eric was into guns/shooting/violence even before discussing with Dylan but I think it was a very hypothetical thing.  He was upset that people made fun of him and treated him poorly so he fantasized killing them.  But I don't think he would ever have killed anyone without the push of Dylan.  

Keep piling on the hate right?  I personally think regardless of body count that Dylan was the scarier of the 2 that day.  Thinking of him smiling while killing people is just OMFG scary to me.  

Outwardly Dylan appeared to be a follower.  Just another way he tricked everyone.

Eric didn't have anyone beforehand when Dylan did. So while being his comrade eventually he was friends with Dylan's friends, and in terms of clothing and music they were influenced by Chris. Cause I think I mentioned on here long time ago that they came or Eric at least, without an identity and apparently Eric was preppy before he turned dark (lol.)
The boys both had each other unfortunately to turn their fantasies into reality. Dylan for suicide and Eric for murder. What a way for the stars to align that they had to find each other and cause this massacre. It's always fascinating to me. I always thought that if either one of the two were a chick they'd be the perfect Bonnie and Clyde! and speaking of Bonnie and Clyde, Mickey and Mallory was Dylan's fantasy anyways! He wanted NBK done with a chick but Eric was his only substitute.
Dylan definitely had everyone fooled. He was the one to win at that despite the fact that Eric had also manipulated his way out of things many a time prior to 4/20.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I just can't get over this topic it seems.  I find it ironic that so many think Dylan was a follower when it seems in reality Eric if anyone was a follower.  I think a lot of their odd interests (dark clothing, music etc) was perhaps both following Morris but other than that....

I think Eric was into guns/shooting/violence even before discussing with Dylan but I think it was a very hypothetical thing.  He was upset that people made fun of him and treated him poorly so he fantasized killing them.  But I don't think he would ever have killed anyone without the push of Dylan.  

Keep piling on the hate right?  I personally think regardless of body count that Dylan was the scarier of the 2 that day.  Thinking of him smiling while killing people is just OMFG scary to me.  

Outwardly Dylan appeared to be a follower.  Just another way he tricked everyone.

Eric didn't have anyone beforehand when Dylan did. So while being his comrade eventually he was friends with Dylan's friends, and in terms of clothing and music they were influenced by Chris. Cause I think I mentioned on here long time ago that they came or Eric at least, without an identity and apparently Eric was preppy before he turned dark (lol.)
The boys both had each other unfortunately to turn their fantasies into reality. Dylan for suicide and Eric for murder. What a way for the stars to align that they had to find each other and cause this massacre. It's always fascinating to me. I always thought that if either one of the two were a chick they'd be the perfect Bonnie and Clyde! and speaking of Bonnie and Clyde, Mickey and Mallory was Dylan's fantasy anyways! He wanted NBK done with a chick but Eric was his only substitute.
Dylan definitely had everyone fooled. He was the one to win at that despite the fact that Eric had also manipulated his way out of things many a time prior to 4/20.

Yea Eric was somewhat of a soccer nerd and wore khaki pants and t shirts then that all changed.

I wish they would have come up with a different name than NBK. I get it, Dylan wanted to do the shooting with a girl, but when it became obvious it was going to be him and Eric, they moron ably should have termed it something else. I always think of the movie Natural Born Killers where it was a man and woman on a killing spree. Just nitpicking, I guess, but I would have named it something else as 2 boys going to commit mass murder.

So who was the girl Dylan kept writing about throughout his journal? Any guesses?

aquillina wrote:

So who was the girl Dylan kept writing about throughout his journal? Any guesses?

Hard to say. I have seen so much speculation about Marla, Tobin, Robyn and even Eric himself! Who do you think it may be?