highlights of the 11k

SMBH_7 wrote:

On page 12254, it states that there was "a bloodstained shirt and emergency medical supplies" under Table [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Maybe it's from that? Lisa Kreutz did say that a paramedic came in when she was found by SWAT, so maybe it's from them?

That is a possibility. It may have been dropped/left by SWAT or one of the paramedics. It might have been something that SWAT was using as they were checking the bodies for explosives etc.

It's just weird that they would enter it into evidence if it was from a first responder. I didn't think that was commonplace. But that's what I'm leaning towards, too.

Littlelo wrote:

It's just weird that they would enter it into evidence if it was from a first responder. I didn't think that was commonplace. But that's what I'm leaning towards, too.

There were only a select few that the tool could have belonged to. Either it was a victims, E&D's, or one of the first responders. Possibly even from a janitor. Who knows, it could have been dropped by anyone that was coming in or out that day.

Just something else interesting I noticed. The two paramedics who treated Lisa Kreutz: Troy Laman (8509) and Robert Montoya (The Denver Post). Montoya's statement doesn't say anything past 11:30 (9491-9492), and Laman's statement isn't even there. Anyone know why this is?

SMBH_7 wrote:

Just something else interesting I noticed. The two paramedics who treated Lisa Kreutz: Troy Laman (8509) and Robert Montoya (The Denver Post). Montoya's statement doesn't say anything past 11:30 (9491-9492), and Laman's statement isn't even there. Anyone know why this is?

That is kind of strange. BUT you have to remember this is Jeffco we are dealing with. They don't have the best track record of keeping up with reports!

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

That is kind of strange. BUT you have to remember this is Jeffco we are dealing with. They don't have the best track record of keeping up with reports!

Very true

One thing that bothers me is about Kelly Fleming. I've always assumed that Kelly Fleming was next to table number 2 when the shooting took place in the library. I remember reading that in several sources (which I can't now find, isn't that always the way?). But upon reading the statements of Lisa Kreutz and Valeen Schnurr, I just don't see how that could be.

For one thing neither Kreutz or Schnurr mention a girl sitting next to the table during the shooting. Kreutz mentions a blonde girl crawling up to the table and laying her head down by her at some point, but describes this as happening after everyone had left the library.

If Kelly Fleming had in fact been sitting next to the table, wouldn't somebody have mentioned it at some point? Also, if Fleming was shot dead right next to the table, wouldn't somebody have mentioned that? Valeen Schnurr describes moving out from under the table to leave the library and states that she moved out from under it on the east side. If you look at the diagrams of the library where you can see the positioning of the bodies, this would have been almost impossible without at least noticing Fleming, yet she doesn't mention her at all.

So then I thought, okay, so Fleming was shot at table number 4, where she had been sitting, and then crawled to table number 2 (perhaps in an effort to leave the library, and doesn't that just break your heart?). But there's problems with that theory as well. For one thing, the gunshot wound did so much damage to her internally AND fractured her left hip, how could she have crawled anywhere?

I just don't understand why no one mentioned her if she was next to table number 2 all along. And who could the girl Lisa Kreutz saw crawling to her table have been if it wasn't Kelly Fleming? Hair color discrepancy aside, was there anybody else in that area that didn't leave after the shooting?

I've also always been curious about this and somewhat frustrated as well. Kelly Fleming was originally sat at table 4 (Nicole Nowlen remembered seeing her sat there) but due to the position of her table she sought cover behind table 2, (the same reason Nowlen moved from her table and joined John Tomlin under his). I've mentioned before that one witness passing through the library could see in the reflection of the shattered mirror in the shot at display cabinet a body near table 1 with a wound in the back. She couldn't tell the sex, but this was most likely Kelly.

Another thing I've wondered is presuming the girls under table 2 moved the chairs in around them when they got under the table, whether Kelly simply hid on the outside of these chairs (which would've left her very exposed) or if she hid on the inside.

About Lisa Kreutz, I'm wondering whether or not she was simply delirious when she thought a girl came up to her. I can't remember where she was under table 2 again, but she would've had Lauren's body just north of her, and Kelly's to the east.

Here's a good question: If Kelly wanted cover, why would she go to the table with 5 people under it, rather than either of the adjacent tables with 2 people under it?

Also, Lisa Kreutz was initially on the right-hand side of the center of the table. She does say that she moves to between tables 1 and 2 in an effort to get out of the library. Did lose a lot of blood, and was pale when paramedics finally got to her, so that probably contributed to her odd report about the girl coming up to her.

Quote :

Here's a good question: If Kelly wanted cover, why would she go to the table with 5 people under it, rather than either of the adjacent tables with 2 people under it?

Another point I've wondered as well. It could be she simply initially felt safer to be by a table of older girls, than asking a boy (who she may not have known) if she could go under his table. It's perhaps likely as well she may not at first realised the seriousness of the situation until E&D had entered the library, and by that point I'm sure she probably realised how exposed she was, but where could she go?

Yeah, that makes sense. It could also explain the bruise on her right knee. Like you said: she likely didn't realize the magnitude of the situation, and rushed to the closest place of cover: table 2. She likely bruised her right knee in the panic

That is just so sad. If she was sitting next to the table while the five girls underneath it were all huddling together, she would have for all intents and purposes still been on her own.

I have NEVER noticed this before or heard of it. Does anyone have any more info? Evidence Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (I believe recovered at Eric's house) is a wooden plaque with "R/NBK/V" on it.

[Pg. 11,557]

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Littlelo wrote:

I have NEVER noticed this before or heard of it. Does anyone have any more info? Evidence Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (I believe recovered at Eric's house) is a wooden plaque with "R/NBK/V" on it.

[Pg. 11,557]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

That’s new to me!!

They made a plaque and everything...

Interesting.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I have NEVER noticed this before or heard of it. Does anyone have any more info? Evidence Item [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] (I believe recovered at Eric's house) is a wooden plaque with "R/NBK/V" on it.

[Pg. 11,557]

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

That’s new to me!!

They made a plaque and everything...

Interesting.

Me too. But I would pay money to see it. Also to know when it was made and by who.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] Know anything about this?

I just tried looking back at photos from the evidence exhibit in 2004 with no luck. It could be a small piece of wood or metal and they just called it a plaque, but the fact that one or both of them made something like that is so interesting...

Edit:
I checked and it was one of the items released back to Wayne after the investigation the following year. So it wouldn't have been at the exhibit.

Littlelo wrote:

I just tried looking back at photos from the evidence exhibit in 2004 with no luck. It could be a small piece of wood or metal and they just called it a plaque, but the fact that one or both of them made something like that is so interesting...

Edit:
I checked and it was one of the items released back to Wayne after the investigation the following year. So it wouldn't have been at the exhibit.

I wonder if Wayne would have wanted it...

I do wonder if Tom or Sue have Dylan’s trench coat in a closet or attic

It’s just a coat yes but it’s almost become an iconic or infamous piece of clothing.

Eric was into having symbols like a plaque. He carried around his berserker with him and he had it on 4/20.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I just tried looking back at photos from the evidence exhibit in 2004 with no luck. It could be a small piece of wood or metal and they just called it a plaque, but the fact that one or both of them made something like that is so interesting...

Edit:
I checked and it was one of the items released back to Wayne after the investigation the following year. So it wouldn't have been at the exhibit.

I wonder if Wayne would have wanted it...

I do wonder if Tom or Sue have Dylan’s trench coat in a closet or attic

It’s just a coat yes but it’s almost become an iconic or infamous piece of clothing.

Eric was into having symbols like a plaque. He carried around his berserker with him and he had it on 4/20.

All questions I reaaally want to know the answers to.

I wouldn't think he would have wanted it, and I highly doubt that the Harris's have it over the mantel piece.

But the fact that E&D had made a sort of a commemorative plaque/anything for NBK is just kinda twisted. Yet we all know that Eric lived for that type of shit.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I wouldn't think he would have wanted it, and I highly doubt that the Harris's have it over the mantel piece.

But the fact that E&D had made a sort of a commemorative plaque/anything for NBK is just kinda twisted. Yet we all know that Eric lived for that type of shit.

Sadly Eric got everything he wanted from the Marines through Dylan and NBK

I’m sure we’ve talked about it before, how different it would have been if Eric got into the Marines.

Screamingophelia wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

I wouldn't think he would have wanted it, and I highly doubt that the Harris's have it over the mantel piece.

But the fact that E&D had made a sort of a commemorative plaque/anything for NBK is just kinda twisted. Yet we all know that Eric lived for that type of shit.

Sadly Eric got everything he wanted from the Marines through Dylan and NBK

I’m sure we’ve talked  about it before, how different it would have been if Eric got into the  Marines.

Eric even said that maybe being a Marine would have given him a reason to be good(or somethings along those lines). It definitely would have given him an outlet to his aggression.

I've seen something somewhere about Dylan supposedly making his earring in a shop class in school. I wonder if it's the same place the plaque was made? I know that's a stretch.

Littlelo wrote:

I've seen something somewhere about Dylan supposedly making his earring in a shop class in school. I wonder if it's the same place the plaque was made? I know that's a stretch.

Nah not really. They could have made it in the school's shop class. That would have been something I can picture Eric laughing his ass over, making an NBK plaque at the very school they were going to attack..

I'm still making my very slow way through the 11k and I'm now reading Brian Anderson's first statement on 04/21/99 (I know, I got a long way to go). He makes no mention of seeing Ms. Nielson in the north main hallway nor does he at any time state she was with him when he was shot at and injured. He says the first time he saw her (not knowing her name) was in the library when she 'entered with them'. Nielson was very adamant that Brian Anderson was walking next to her when they were shot at and that she even spoke to him before that. How very strange that he completely ommits her being there.

SandraSmit19 wrote:

I'm still making my very slow way through the 11k and I'm now reading Brian Anderson's first statement on 04/21/99 (I know, I got a long way to go). He makes no mention of seeing Ms. Nielson in the north main hallway nor does he at any time state she was with him when he was shot at and injured. He says the first time he saw her (not knowing her name) was in the library when she 'entered with them'. Nielson was very adamant that Brian Anderson was walking next to her when they were shot at and that she even spoke to him before that. How very strange that he completely ommits her being there.

Wow I must have read his testimony and I never picked up on that. But he must be misremembering, right? They both had injuries from when Eric shot through the door, and she mentions that at the beginning of the 911 call.

SandraSmit19 wrote:

I'm still making my very slow way through the 11k and I'm now reading Brian Anderson's first statement on 04/21/99 (I know, I got a long way to go). He makes no mention of seeing Ms. Nielson in the north main hallway nor does he at any time state she was with him when he was shot at and injured. He says the first time he saw her (not knowing her name) was in the library when she 'entered with them'. Nielson was very adamant that Brian Anderson was walking next to her when they were shot at and that she even spoke to him before that. How very strange that he completely ommits her being there.

One thing to be aware of is that the witness statements are FULL of inconsistencies. Much of it was likely due to trauma, and the stressful situation. It really is hard to tell what those kids really saw or heard. Because their witness accounts are so jumbled up, with things out of order, timelines all off, things added in that they heard from others but didn't actually see for themselves etc. Its hard to make sense out of it sometimes.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I've seen something somewhere about Dylan supposedly making his earring in a shop class in school. I wonder if it's the same place the plaque was made? I know that's a stretch.

Nah not really. They could have made it in the school's shop class. That would have been something I can picture Eric laughing his ass over, making an NBK plaque at the very school they were going to attack..

I wonder if the Man in Black story was Dylan's way of having "fun" like Eric probably was...

Did Sue take jewelry making classes or was that speculation? I read somewhere that she may have made it for him. He could have had it custom made somewhere too.

Hi. I'm hoping someone can please tell me exactly in this link where the library witnesses testimony starts? Thanks!
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Hope this helps![You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Thank you so much

So i was reading the 11k last night and came upon a section where investigators were asking a witness (that had spoken on a radio station show) about three adults in leather jackets with these anti religion symbols on thier jackets arrested that afternoon in Clement Park.
I immediately thought these were Bad Religion fans and as a fan myself it PO'd me that the police arrested these guys because of thier jackets. Obviously someone so anti religious would shoot up a school right?! Urg.
Anyway the police do discover its the punk rock group and nothing more. It just bothered me as further evidence they went after the different/alternative people. I have always been a fan and have seen the group many times live and have thier t-shirts which i wear often. I would leave my hubby for Greg Graffin, which is ok he said because he would too.
I think the witness was John?
I would love to know who those guys were. Any ideas on how to research that? I do not think charges were laid but they were taken into custody and held for several hours.

On page JC-001-025708 there is a search warrant for Zach's computer and Devon is listed on it with her Screen name but the other screen name has "KiBBz" in it but the name next to it is Chris Morris, but it is for Zach's computer??

Oldmare wrote:

So i was reading the 11k last night and came upon a section where investigators were asking a witness (that had spoken on a radio station show) about three adults in leather jackets with these anti religion symbols on thier jackets arrested that afternoon in Clement Park.
...
I would love to know who those guys were.  Any ideas on how to research that? I do not think charges were laid but they were taken into custody and held for several hours.

They actually did an interview with a talk show. The transcript is in this thread.
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sscc wrote:

Oldmare wrote:

So i was reading the 11k last night and came upon a section where investigators were asking a witness (that had spoken on a radio station show) about three adults in leather jackets with these anti religion symbols on thier jackets arrested that afternoon in Clement Park.
...
I would love to know who those guys were.  Any ideas on how to research that? I do not think charges were laid but they were taken into custody and held for several hours.

They actually did an interview with a talk show. The transcript is in this thread.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thank you!!!

Just wanted to say that this thread is super informative and interesting. There's so much detail. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Quote :

5) Hartsough stated that both Harris and Klebold often talked about wanting to blow up Columbine High School and kill the jocks. She said that they talked about it for a year prior to her leaving the store but she never took them seriously

Wow. Smart move there, boys. These two just couldn't keep their mouths shut.

NBK would have died on the vine if the people they mouthed off around had just called the cops.

sympathyforEandD wrote:

Just wanted to say that this thread is super informative and interesting. There's so much detail. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Quote :

5) Hartsough stated that both Harris and Klebold often talked about wanting to blow up Columbine High School and kill the jocks. She said that they talked about it for a year prior to her leaving the store but she never took them seriously

Wow. Smart move there, boys. These two just couldn't keep their mouths shut.

NBK would have died on the vine if the people they mouthed off around had just called the cops.

Literally no one took those two seriously. It was just all that’s just them. I’m pretty sure even Dylan said to someone one day oh that’s just Eric... always talkin about blown up the school.

Though take what Michelle says with a grain of salt she also said that Dylan slapped her....


Also the plan could’ve been foiled if Dylan accidentally shot himself or Eric because of his lack of gun safety

Honestly the cameras right on Dylan.. he loads a shotgun into his stomach and nobody says anything to him.

Screamingophelia wrote:

sympathyforEandD wrote:

Just wanted to say that this thread is super informative and interesting. There's so much detail. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Quote :

5) Hartsough stated that both Harris and Klebold often talked about wanting to blow up Columbine High School and kill the jocks. She said that they talked about it for a year prior to her leaving the store but she never took them seriously

Wow. Smart move there, boys. These two just couldn't keep their mouths shut.

NBK would have died on the vine if the people they mouthed off around had just called the cops.

Literally no one took those two seriously. It was just all that’s just them. I’m pretty sure even Dylan said  to someone one day oh that’s just Eric...  always talkin about blown up the school.

Though take what Michelle says with a grain of salt she also said that Dylan slapped her....


Also the plan could’ve been foiled if Dylan accidentally shot himself or  Eric because of his lack of gun safety

Honestly the cameras right on Dylan.. he loads  a shotgun into his stomach and nobody says anything to him.

Yeah that made me cringe..

rebel2013 wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

sympathyforEandD wrote:

Just wanted to say that this thread is super informative and interesting. There's so much detail. Thanks to everyone who contributed.

Quote :

5) Hartsough stated that both Harris and Klebold often talked about wanting to blow up Columbine High School and kill the jocks. She said that they talked about it for a year prior to her leaving the store but she never took them seriously

Wow. Smart move there, boys. These two just couldn't keep their mouths shut.

NBK would have died on the vine if the people they mouthed off around had just called the cops.

Literally no one took those two seriously. It was just all that’s just them. I’m pretty sure even Dylan said  to someone one day oh that’s just Eric...  always talkin about blown up the school.

Though take what Michelle says with a grain of salt she also said that Dylan slapped her....


Also the plan could’ve been foiled if Dylan accidentally shot himself or  Eric because of his lack of gun safety

Honestly the cameras right on Dylan.. he loads  a shotgun into his stomach and nobody says anything to him.

Yeah that made me cringe..

It shows how little he regarded his own life too IMO. He did give any crap anymore.

I also read in the reports that someone slept through the whole shooting.
Only to wake up when swat came.

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Dustin gorton saying he saw nate dykeman dead outside

ThoughtBox wrote:

Has anyone out there actually read all the 11k? I'd like to know...

No, I did not.

I like to think that I had retained at least some shreds of sanity.

Screamingophelia wrote:

Literally no one took those two seriously. It was just all that’s just them. I’m pretty sure even Dylan said  to someone one day oh that’s just Eric...  always talkin about blown up the school.

Exactly.

Plus, let us all remember: This is the pre-Columbine era. People did not treat such stuff seriously back then.

Heck, if I had a dime for each time somone said they will blow up my primary school in the 90s... I'd be filthy rich by now.