Shot by pigs - agreement?

Reading another post, someone mentioned what would have happened if one of Eric or Dylan was gunned down by the cops.

It got me thinking, do you think there was an agreement between the two that if one was severely wounded that the other would finish him off before committing suicide?

Ie had Gardner hit Eric and he was in a state like, say, Lance. Does Dylan then finish Eric off and have to off himself immediately? Would he risk continuing alone and getting hit himself but not with a fatal bullet?

I know the plan was the bombing and they perhaps didn't even expect to see each other again after the bombs went off, but in that quick minute or so when they decided to do the shooting, did that cross their minds or did they just get on with it?

I don't think that ever crossed their minds.  After the bombs failed I think everything was ad libbed.

I do think if Eric had been killed by Gardener that Dylan would not have continued on his own.  I am not sure about Eric but I think perhaps if Dylan had been killed by Gardener that Eric would have had a shootout with Gardener at the very least.

I think if one was severely wounded by a cop and bled to death or perhaps be put out of misery, then the other would off himself at that point of time. Cuz if we remember they assumed the bombs would go off and the school would already be annihilated.

Draw_It_White wrote:

Reading another post, someone mentioned what would have happened if one of Eric or Dylan was gunned down by the cops.

It got me thinking, do you think there was an agreement between the two that if one was severely wounded that the other would finish him off before committing suicide?

Ie had Gardner hit Eric and he was in a state like, say, Lance. Does Dylan then finish Eric off and have to off himself immediately? Would he risk continuing alone and getting hit himself but not with a fatal bullet?

I know the plan was the bombing and they perhaps didn't even expect to see each other again after the bombs went off, but in that quick minute or so when they decided to do the shooting, did that cross their minds or did they just get on with it?

I have to respectfully disagree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Considering the boys had different hand signals for carrying out the shootings, as seen in Eric's journal, I believe, I would have to think that they may indeed have had a contingency plan in case one of them was seriously shot and injured. It may have been to "finish off" the injured comrade, and then commit suicide, or to carry on, but in any case, yes, I think they discussed it as a possibility, especially since some have argued that "suicide by cop" was one of the goals of the attack.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Draw_It_White wrote:

Reading another post, someone mentioned what would have happened if one of Eric or Dylan was gunned down by the cops.

It got me thinking, do you think there was an agreement between the two that if one was severely wounded that the other would finish him off before committing suicide?

Ie had Gardner hit Eric and he was in a state like, say, Lance. Does Dylan then finish Eric off and have to off himself immediately? Would he risk continuing alone and getting hit himself but not with a fatal bullet?

I know the plan was the bombing and they perhaps didn't even expect to see each other again after the bombs went off, but in that quick minute or so when they decided to do the shooting, did that cross their minds or did they just get on with it?

I have to respectfully disagree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Considering the boys had different hand signals for carrying out the shootings, as seen in Eric's journal, I believe, I would have to think that they may indeed have had a contingency plan in case one of them was seriously shot and injured. It may have been to "finish off" the injured comrade, and then commit suicide, or to carry on, but in any case, yes, I think they discussed it as a possibility, especially since some have argued that "suicide by cop" was one of the goals of the attack.

Do you think they considered the fact that the bombs may not have worked? Do you think it would have been different if the bombs had worked?

Like let's say the bombs worked and Dylan looks over and sees Eric shot by Gardener. Do you think he would have carried on? Vice versa?

Lizpuff wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

Draw_It_White wrote:

Reading another post, someone mentioned what would have happened if one of Eric or Dylan was gunned down by the cops.

It got me thinking, do you think there was an agreement between the two that if one was severely wounded that the other would finish him off before committing suicide?

Ie had Gardner hit Eric and he was in a state like, say, Lance. Does Dylan then finish Eric off and have to off himself immediately? Would he risk continuing alone and getting hit himself but not with a fatal bullet?

I know the plan was the bombing and they perhaps didn't even expect to see each other again after the bombs went off, but in that quick minute or so when they decided to do the shooting, did that cross their minds or did they just get on with it?

I have to respectfully disagree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Considering the boys had different hand signals for carrying out the shootings, as seen in Eric's journal, I believe, I would have to think that they may indeed have had a contingency plan in case one of them was seriously shot and injured. It may have been to "finish off" the injured comrade, and then commit suicide, or to carry on, but in any case, yes, I think they discussed it as a possibility, especially since some have argued that "suicide by cop" was one of the goals of the attack.

Do you think they considered the fact that the bombs may not have worked?  Do you think it would have been different if the bombs had worked?

Like let's say the bombs worked and Dylan looks over and sees Eric shot by Gardener.  Do you think he would have carried on?  Vice versa?

Honestly, I don't think the boys ever considered that their shittily-made (!) bombs would not explode as planned.
If the bombs did work, then Dylan saw Eric shot by Gardner, they may have had an agreement to finish the other off if it was bad enough, so I would say he would have killed him, maybe carried on a bit, and then killed himself if he weren't already fatally wounded in a cop battle.

Either way, though we don't know the details, I do believe they had considered the distinct possibility that one of them might get wounded, and had contingency plans for that occurrence.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

ThoughtBox wrote:

Draw_It_White wrote:

Reading another post, someone mentioned what would have happened if one of Eric or Dylan was gunned down by the cops.

It got me thinking, do you think there was an agreement between the two that if one was severely wounded that the other would finish him off before committing suicide?

Ie had Gardner hit Eric and he was in a state like, say, Lance. Does Dylan then finish Eric off and have to off himself immediately? Would he risk continuing alone and getting hit himself but not with a fatal bullet?

I know the plan was the bombing and they perhaps didn't even expect to see each other again after the bombs went off, but in that quick minute or so when they decided to do the shooting, did that cross their minds or did they just get on with it?

I have to respectfully disagree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Considering the boys had different hand signals for carrying out the shootings, as seen in Eric's journal, I believe, I would have to think that they may indeed have had a contingency plan in case one of them was seriously shot and injured. It may have been to "finish off" the injured comrade, and then commit suicide, or to carry on, but in any case, yes, I think they discussed it as a possibility, especially since some have argued that "suicide by cop" was one of the goals of the attack.

Do you think they considered the fact that the bombs may not have worked?  Do you think it would have been different if the bombs had worked?

Like let's say the bombs worked and Dylan looks over and sees Eric shot by Gardener.  Do you think he would have carried on?  Vice versa?

Honestly, I don't think the boys ever considered that their shittily-made (!) bombs would not explode as planned.
If the bombs did work, then Dylan saw Eric shot by Gardner, they may have had an agreement to finish the other off if it was bad enough, so I would say he would have killed him, maybe carried on a bit, and then killed himself if he weren't already fatally wounded in a cop battle.

Either way, though we don't know the details, I do believe they had considered the distinct possibility that one of them might get wounded, and had contingency plans for that occurrence.

Thanks for your opinion! I like to hear things that differ from my own thoughts. Getting me thinking differently

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think that ever crossed their minds.  After the bombs failed I think everything was ad libbed.

I do think if Eric had been killed by Gardener that Dylan would not have continued on his own.  I am not sure about Eric but I think perhaps if Dylan had been killed by Gardener that Eric would have had a shootout with Gardener at the very least.

I don't see why Dylan wouldn't continue on his own.

1) It was his plan to do a shooting originally.
2) He was screaming and hollering the entire time; obviously really enjoying the events taking place in stark contrast to Eric who was quiet and methodical during the shooting.
3) I believe they only killed themselves because they thought the police had already or were going to enter the building shortly.

I can't believe they never had a good plan b if the bombs didn't go off. They put to much faith in their bombs and didn't get enough practice with them. They went out and practiced shooting at rampart, tested out a boat load of pipe bombs and crickets,  but never went out and got some propane and clocks and tried to see of they could actually perfect the art of the time bomb.

Dylan wrote that it would be 15 minutes maximum. They were going to shoot the kids running from the school, and as soon as the cops came shoot it out with them until they were killed. It was totally impervised, but for highschool kids it wasn't that bad of improving.

slippy123 wrote:

I can't believe they never had a good plan b if the bombs didn't go off. They put to much faith in their bombs and didn't get enough practice with them. They went out and practiced shooting at rampart, tested out a boat load of pipe bombs and crickets,  but never went out and got some propane and clocks and tried to see of they could actually perfect the art of the time bomb.

Dylan wrote that it would be 15 minutes maximum. They were going to shoot the kids running from the school,  and as soon as the cops came shoot it out with them until they were killed.  It was totally impervised, but for highschool kids it wasn't that bad of improving.

Well shooting unarmed people isn't exactly rocket science. Even little toddlers have been known to fire guns and kill people. For all their months of planning, between the two of them they (thankfully) didn't kill that many people in contrast to their rough estimations they had prior to the massacre. That being said, it was still 13 lives too many.

And in relation to the bombs not working, they had their heads too far up their own asses with their God complex that they just assumed their bombs would be successful. Too busy bragging on the basement tapes about how everything was going to go according to plan. Just another of many examples of E&D not being anywhere near as bright as people like to portray them as.

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think that ever crossed their minds.  After the bombs failed I think everything was ad libbed.

I do think if Eric had been killed by Gardener that Dylan would not have continued on his own.  I am not sure about Eric but I think perhaps if Dylan had been killed by Gardener that Eric would have had a shootout with Gardener at the very least.

I don't see why Dylan wouldn't continue on his own.

1) It was his plan to do a shooting originally.
2) He was screaming and hollering the entire time; obviously really enjoying the events taking place in stark contrast to Eric who was quiet and methodical during the shooting.
3) I believe they only killed themselves because they thought the police had already or were going to enter the building shortly.

I don't doubt that Dylan would continue without Eric, but I don't think he'd have put as much effort in on his own. I imagine Dylan would make a straight shot through the school shooting whoever he stumbled upon until he found a quiet corner where he could kill himself. Dylan may have had the idea for NBK first, but it was ultimately nothing more than an elaborate and theatrical form of suicide for him. Plus all of his entries about going on a killing spree also mention him having a partner. Its quite possible (and highly likely IMO) that Dyaln was afraid to die alone which is why he never simply shot himself. Eric was the key thing that allowed NBK to become a reality to Dylan.

bubbles wrote:

And in relation to the bombs not working, they had their heads too far up their own asses with their God complex that they just assumed their bombs would be successful. Too busy bragging on the basement tapes about how everything was going to go according to plan. Just another of many examples of E&D not being anywhere near as bright as people like to portray them as.

Thank you! This isn't being said enough imo. They weren't stupid but they were definitely not bright or very intelligent as some people like to parade. A 4 year old toddler entering 5th grade is very intelligent. Not a guy who procrastinates and has no ambition and another who has patience to study and gets B in chemistry. Genius and high intelligence mean you're actually gifted. You discover new mathematical equations at 18 years old. Not read a book for a week and get an A on a test coming from a school that asks you what 35/100 equals. But that's just my opinion :^)

bubbles wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

I can't believe they never had a good plan b if the bombs didn't go off. They put to much faith in their bombs and didn't get enough practice with them. They went out and practiced shooting at rampart, tested out a boat load of pipe bombs and crickets,  but never went out and got some propane and clocks and tried to see of they could actually perfect the art of the time bomb.

Dylan wrote that it would be 15 minutes maximum. They were going to shoot the kids running from the school,  and as soon as the cops came shoot it out with them until they were killed.  It was totally impervised, but for highschool kids it wasn't that bad of improving.

Well shooting unarmed people isn't exactly rocket science. Even little toddlers have been known to fire guns and kill people. For all their months of planning, between the two of them they (thankfully) didn't kill that many people in contrast to their rough estimations they had prior to the massacre. That being said, it was still 13 lives too many.

And in relation to the bombs not working, they had their heads too far up their own asses with their God complex that they just assumed their bombs would be successful. Too busy bragging on the basement tapes about how everything was going to go according to plan. Just another of many examples of E&D not being anywhere near as bright as people like to portray them as.

Exactly. I think it was the fact they weren't as smart as they thought, coupled with their adolescent arrogance that allowed them to think the plan would go down as scheduled. It's just my opinion, but I don't really think there was a "plan B" of any sort.

slippy123 wrote:

I can't believe they never had a good plan b if the bombs didn't go off. They put to much faith in their bombs and didn't get enough practice with them. They went out and practiced shooting at rampart, tested out a boat load of pipe bombs and crickets,  but never went out and got some propane and clocks and tried to see of they could actually perfect the art of the time bomb.

Dylan wrote that it would be 15 minutes maximum. They were going to shoot the kids running from the school,  and as soon as the cops came shoot it out with them until they were killed.  It was totally impervised, but for highschool kids it wasn't that bad of improving.

I assume (or rather, I hope) you mean it "wasn't that bad" of improvising in relation to their original plans? If so, I would argue it was a bad improvisation, considering they hoped to killed hundreds and hundreds of fellow students, friends, and acquaintances. As I've stated before, there likely was no contingency plan, and everything that happened after they realized the bombs weren't going off was merely a clusterf-ck of random activity.

Dylan's behavior in the first moments of the massacre was totally wandering and directionless.

Erratic shooting. Going into the cafeteria and doing nothing. Wandering the halls while Eric fights police.

Hard to see him continuing in any fashion if Eric dies by Gardner.

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan's behavior in the first moments of the massacre was totally wandering and directionless.  

Erratic shooting.  Going into the cafeteria and doing nothing.  Wandering the halls while Eric fights police.

Hard to see him continuing in any fashion if Eric dies by Gardner.

I agree with you. I think he would have completely fallen apart if Eric was to die right away. In any case though if he did continue I don't see him doing much. I certainly don't think he would have killed many at all by himself.

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan's behavior in the first moments of the massacre was totally wandering and directionless.  

Erratic shooting.  Going into the cafeteria and doing nothing.  Wandering the halls while Eric fights police.

Hard to see him continuing in any fashion if Eric dies by Gardner.

This.

I think I said in another post a while back - a good punishment for Dylan would be for Eric to have been slain early and Dylan to have been captured and had to spend the next 60 years in a cell and not get chance to end his life.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Plus all of his entries about going on a killing spree also mention him having a partner. Its quite possible (and highly likely IMO) that Dyaln was afraid to die alone which is why he never simply shot himself. Eric was the key thing that allowed NBK to become a reality to Dylan.

I wish more people could realize that.

Draw_It_White wrote:

I think I said in another post a while back - a good punishment for Dylan would be for Eric to have been slain early and Dylan to have been captured and had to spend the next 60 years in a cell and not get chance to end his life.

I just tried to imagine that and I don't think he would have been able to make it. Neither of them actually. They'd probably hang themselves the first night.

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan's behavior in the first moments of the massacre was totally wandering and directionless.  

Erratic shooting.  Going into the cafeteria and doing nothing.  Wandering the halls while Eric fights police.

Hard to see him continuing in any fashion if Eric dies by Gardner.

Yeah, shooting Daniel R (who he didn't even know was dead) on the way to check the cafeteria bombs is 'totally wandering and directionless'. Or how about him shooting Lance in the face? "Sure, I'll help". Was Eric holding his hand then?

It should be obvious Dylan had the capacity to kill on his own.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think that ever crossed their minds.  After the bombs failed I think everything was ad libbed.

I do think if Eric had been killed by Gardener that Dylan would not have continued on his own.  I am not sure about Eric but I think perhaps if Dylan had been killed by Gardener that Eric would have had a shootout with Gardener at the very least.

I don't see why Dylan wouldn't continue on his own.

1) It was his plan to do a shooting originally.
2) He was screaming and hollering the entire time; obviously really enjoying the events taking place in stark contrast to Eric who was quiet and methodical during the shooting.
3) I believe they only killed themselves because they thought the police had already or were going to enter the building shortly.

I don't doubt that Dylan would continue without Eric, but I don't think he'd have put as much effort in on his own. I imagine Dylan would make a straight shot through the school shooting whoever he stumbled upon until he found a quiet corner where he could kill himself. Dylan may have had the idea for NBK first, but it was ultimately nothing more than an elaborate and theatrical form of suicide for him. Plus all of his entries about going on a killing spree also mention him having a partner. Its quite possible (and highly likely IMO) that Dyaln was afraid to die alone which is why he never simply shot himself. Eric was the key thing that allowed NBK to become a reality to Dylan.

I still think he had the capacity to kill on his own, and that even if Eric had died, he would have still amassed a body count.

Draw_It_White wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan's behavior in the first moments of the massacre was totally wandering and directionless.  

Erratic shooting.  Going into the cafeteria and doing nothing.  Wandering the halls while Eric fights police.

Hard to see him continuing in any fashion if Eric dies by Gardner.

This.

I think I said in another post a while back - a good punishment for Dylan would be for Eric to have been slain early and Dylan to have been captured and had to spend the next 60 years in a cell and not get chance to end his life.

Good luck with that, it took them 3 or 4 hours to even get into the building. Dylan would be long dead by then.

Ivan wrote:

Draw_It_White wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan's behavior in the first moments of the massacre was totally wandering and directionless.  

Erratic shooting.  Going into the cafeteria and doing nothing.  Wandering the halls while Eric fights police.

Hard to see him continuing in any fashion if Eric dies by Gardner.

This.

I think I said in another post a while back - a good punishment for Dylan would be for Eric to have been slain early and Dylan to have been captured and had to spend the next 60 years in a cell and not get chance to end his life.

Good luck with that, it took them 3 or 4 hours to even get into the building. Dylan would be long dead by then.

And besides Dylan just wanted someone to die with. If Eric was shot down and killed by cops, well then Eric was dead and then Dylan would just kill himself. In the end, that is kind of what happened anyways. Eric killed himself before Dylan and then Dylan followed seconds or so later.

Jenn wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Draw_It_White wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan's behavior in the first moments of the massacre was totally wandering and directionless.  

Erratic shooting.  Going into the cafeteria and doing nothing.  Wandering the halls while Eric fights police.

Hard to see him continuing in any fashion if Eric dies by Gardner.

This.

I think I said in another post a while back - a good punishment for Dylan would be for Eric to have been slain early and Dylan to have been captured and had to spend the next 60 years in a cell and not get chance to end his life.

Good luck with that, it took them 3 or 4 hours to even get into the building. Dylan would be long dead by then.

And besides Dylan just wanted someone to die with. If Eric was shot down and killed by cops, well then Eric was dead and then Dylan would just kill himself. In the end, that is kind of what happened anyways. Eric killed himself before Dylan and then Dylan followed seconds or so later.

I think if Eric had been shot dead at the start of the massacre by Neil Gardener Dylan would have continued on (maybe even gone to the library) and killed a couple more people. Then he may have just killed himself. I don't think he'd be satisfied with what they did outside the school, I think he'd want to go into the school to mess with the bombs and kill kids.

But then if Dylan is alone, there's also the possibility of him getting jumped by a kid. That's what happened to Kip Kinkel - and Dylan, despite being tall, wasn't very menacing. He weighed all of 143 pounds at his autopsy. I don't think he would hold his own in a physical confrontation with a larger student. I believe if a student or two students jumped Dylan when he was reloading they could hold him down, but he also had multiple guns and an extra bullet on his shoe so he might use that time to kill himself too if he could. In that situation he may be arrested though.

Magnaphoria wrote:

bubbles wrote:

And in relation to the bombs not working, they had their heads too far up their own asses with their God complex that they just assumed their bombs would be successful. Too busy bragging on the basement tapes about how everything was going to go according to plan. Just another of many examples of E&D not being anywhere near as bright as people like to portray them as.

Thank you! This isn't being said enough imo. They weren't stupid but they were definitely not bright or very intelligent as some people like to parade. A 4 year old toddler entering 5th grade is very intelligent. Not a guy who procrastinates and has no ambition and another who has patience to study and gets B in chemistry. Genius and high intelligence mean you're actually gifted. You discover new mathematical equations at 18 years old. Not read a book for a week and get an A on a test coming from a school that asks you what 35/100 equals. But that's just my opinion :^)

ThoughtBox wrote:

bubbles wrote:

slippy123 wrote:

I can't believe they never had a good plan b if the bombs didn't go off. They put to much faith in their bombs and didn't get enough practice with them. They went out and practiced shooting at rampart, tested out a boat load of pipe bombs and crickets,  but never went out and got some propane and clocks and tried to see of they could actually perfect the art of the time bomb.

Dylan wrote that it would be 15 minutes maximum. They were going to shoot the kids running from the school,  and as soon as the cops came shoot it out with them until they were killed.  It was totally impervised, but for highschool kids it wasn't that bad of improving.

Well shooting unarmed people isn't exactly rocket science. Even little toddlers have been known to fire guns and kill people. For all their months of planning, between the two of them they (thankfully) didn't kill that many people in contrast to their rough estimations they had prior to the massacre. That being said, it was still 13 lives too many.

And in relation to the bombs not working, they had their heads too far up their own asses with their God complex that they just assumed their bombs would be successful. Too busy bragging on the basement tapes about how everything was going to go according to plan. Just another of many examples of E&D not being anywhere near as bright as people like to portray them as.

Exactly. I think it was the fact they weren't as smart as they thought, coupled with their adolescent arrogance that allowed them to think the plan would go down as scheduled. It's just my opinion, but I don't really think there was a "plan B" of any sort.

I know Eric saw parallels between KMFDM's lyrics for "Stray Bullet" and himself, but the line in another of KMFDM's songs that Eric liked ("Son of a Gun") sticks out to me a lot:

"Shit for brains, born to kill."

Actually, Eric and Dylan were both lauded by some classmates for their intelligence.One classmate said that Eric always knew the answers in every class.Brooks Brown said he considered Eric to be brilliant.
Dylan was in advanced calculus and was considered a math whiz.He was once in the gifted program in elementary school and was considered bright enough to take high school math while still in middle school.They didn't make a smart decision to do what they did but intelligent people make foolish decisions all the time.
I don't think it had anything to do with their base level of intelligence.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Actually, Eric and Dylan were both lauded by some classmates for their intelligence.One classmate said that Eric always knew the answers in every class.Brooks Brown said he considered Eric to be brilliant.
Dylan was in advanced calculus and was considered a math whiz.He was once in the gifted program in elementary school and was considered bright enough to take high school math while still in middle school.They didn't make a smart decision to do what they did but intelligent people make foolish decisions all the time.
I don't think it had anything to do with their base level of intelligence.

To each their own. I still maintain that E&D were nowhere near as intelligent as some people like to claim they were (e.g. both E&D's writings were littered with consistent spelling and grammatical errors, not to mention all the flawed and confused logic they spewed). I'm sorry if people like to view their writing as wise and profound, but I'm just sharing my view.

"They didn't make a smart decision to do what they did but intelligent people make foolish decisions all the time."

Yeah, but you have to remember that they had dedicated so much time into their plan. It wasn't just a spur-of-the-moment decision as we all know. They planned the massacre months in advance and didn't even invest proper thought into their plans. For something that was so important to them, their blatant incompetence and delusional arrogance in the assumption that the crudely-made bombs would work perfectly without proper testing/thorough construction reflects poorly upon their level of intelligence. Thank goodness they weren't smart enough to exert more thought into their efforts prior to the massacre, or many more innocent people could have potentially been killed.

Oh, and I'm not just being critical of E&D and questioning their level of intelligence simply because I loathe them for what they did, I'm just simply sharing my honest opinion. For example, as much as I also loathe Adam Lanza, from what I've read, he came across as someone who was intelligent (despite having a very disturbed thought process and some incredibly bizarre opinions).

bubbles wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Actually, Eric and Dylan were both lauded by some classmates for their intelligence.One classmate said that Eric always knew the answers in every class.Brooks Brown said he considered Eric to be brilliant.
Dylan was in advanced calculus and was considered a math whiz.He was once in the gifted program in elementary school and was considered bright enough to take high school math while still in middle school.They didn't make a smart decision to do what they did but intelligent people make foolish decisions all the time.
I don't think it had anything to do with their base level of intelligence.

To each their own. I still maintain that E&D were nowhere near as intelligent as some people like to claim they were (e.g. both E&D's writings were littered with consistent spelling and errors, not to mention all the flawed and confused logic they spewed). I'm sorry if people like to view their writing as wise and profound, but I'm just sharing my view.

"They didn't make a smart decision to do what they did but intelligent people make foolish decisions all the time."

Yeah, but you have to remember that they had dedicated so much time into their plan. It wasn't just a spur-of-the-moment decision as we all know. They planned the massacre months in advance and didn't even invest proper thought into their plans. For something that was so important to them, their blatant incompetence and delusional arrogance in the assumption that the crudely-made bombs would work perfectly without proper testing/thorough construction reflects poorly upon their level of intelligence. Thank goodness they weren't smart enough to exert more thought into their efforts prior to the massacre, or many more innocent people could have potentially been killed.

Oh, and I'm not just being critical of E&D and questioning their level of intelligence simply because I loathe them for what they did, I'm just simply sharing my honest opinion. For example, as much as I also loathe Adam Lanza, from what I've read, he came across as someone who was intelligent (despite having a very disturbed thought process and some incredibly bizarre opinions).

I don't think it had anything to do with being intelligent or not intelligent.
What they decided to do was irrational although I am sure it made some sort of sense to them at the time.To get to the point they did, one has went over the edge.
You can't really interject rationality into an irrational situation.I look at their failing to test the bombs better as a symptom of that irrationality.
The fact that their out of school writings has spelling and grammatical errors doesn't prove anything to me other than laziness and sloppiness .They obviously knew how to write and spell well enough for school so it's not like they didn't know how to spell or write well when they truly wanted to.

I don't think that Eric could have done as well in school as he did or Dylan could have ever been in advanced Math classes or in gifted programs if they both were as dim as you say.

I'm not referring to the rationality behind their reasons for the massacre (don't even get me started on that - I think we all know my thoughts on anyone, be it E&D themselves, who tried to justify the murder of innocent people), I'm talking about the absence of practicality in their actions.

And anyway, the fact that you're saying that they missed the vital part of carefully constructing their bombs and testing them because they were thinking irrationally is acknowledging that they were not using good judgement. For something as massive of a deal as their plot for 4/20, you would think that an intelligent person would exercise some basic common sense when it came to the planning process.

They had months to organise everything. In all that time, did it ever occur to either of them that their bombs that they haphazardly put together were going to fail? Apparently not. Too busy gloating. Yet people talk about them like they were some great masterminds who did something that most of us don't have the capability to do (thankfully most of us don't have a penchant for unjustified, homicidal tantrums).

Again, I don't equate this with intelligence or non intelligence.
It was just an irrational plan brought about by two people thinking irrationally.
I think the plan itself was fairly sophisticated for two teenage kids but I'm sure if most people wanted to and put their minds to it, they could do that or worse.
Isis terrorists do all the time.

Yes, E&D may have had their strengths in a few areas, but I really don't perceive them as generally any more intelligent than the average teenager, and in some areas, even less so.

Like I said, Lanza on the other hand is someone who I would perceive as intelligent (despite myriad mental health issues). Lanza approached his callous plan in a truly well-thought out way and carried it out methodically. I also believe he was much more intelligent than E&D at an academic level.

But that's fine, we are all entitled to our own opinions.

bubbles wrote:

Yes, E&D may have had their strengths in a few areas, but I really don't perceive them as generally any more intelligent than the average teenager, and in some areas, even less so.

Like I said, Lanza on the other hand is someone who I would perceive as intelligent (despite myriad mental health issues). Lanza approached his callous plan in a truly well-thought out way and carried it out methodically. I also believe he was much more intelligent than E&D at an academic level.

But that's fine, we are all entitled to our own opinions.

The same can be said of Cho to be brutally honest.

Yeah, I concur. I just used Lanza as an example as he was a bit closer to E&D in age when he carried out his plan and it's widely known that he displayed an above average level of intelligence in his high school years.

I think there is a huge difference between a sophisticated plan, and executing that said plan smart and sophisticated.
Give me a year of studying a structure, and I can plan out and figure out the best places to bomb said place to have the best chance of it collapsing.
What good is that year of calculating if I only test my bombs once?

So why I do give them credit on the planning, the execution was pretty sloppy, especially seeing how it was supposed to be a BOMBING.
People forget that important fact, that Columbine was a failed bombing. In the end their plan failed, and they winged it for the most part.

slippy123 wrote:

I think there is a huge difference between a sophisticated plan, and executing that said plan smart and sophisticated.
Give me a year of studying a structure, and I can plan out and figure out the best places to bomb said place to have the best chance of it collapsing.
What good is that year of calculating if I only test my bombs once?

So why I do give them credit on the planning, the execution was pretty sloppy, especially seeing how it was supposed to be a BOMBING.
People forget that important fact, that Columbine was a failed bombing. In the end their plan failed, and they winged it for the most part.

They didn't even test these bombs out once. Some of the propane tanks they didn't even buy until that morning. They were so sloppy with this thing that Dylan set his car bomb to go off at 11 PM. Not that the bombs in the Cafeteria would have worked anyways but knowing them, they probably set it to go off at 11 at night.

I always assumed they were afraid to test it in case they were caught. The guns they could probably explain if they were just out with some older guys shooting but you'd be in serious shit talking your way out of why you were caught setting off bombs.

Draw_It_White wrote:

I always assumed they were afraid to test it in case they were caught. The guns they could probably explain if they were just out with some older guys shooting but you'd be in serious shit talking your way out of why you were caught setting off bombs.

Propane and gas are legal, so I think most everyone wouldn't think much of these two being purchased. At most all they had to say, was a BBQ or something is going on.
All they had to do was connect the clocks and fuses when they got there, and they were good to go.
Rampart is over 100 miles of trails and forests in the middle of nowhere. Perfect place for testing.
IMO they were pretty reckless about being caught altogether. I doubt a few tests of those bombs would make much more of a difference.
I mean Eric had the balls to detonate pipe bombs in a residential area for goodness sake.

Ivan wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think that ever crossed their minds.  After the bombs failed I think everything was ad libbed.

I do think if Eric had been killed by Gardener that Dylan would not have continued on his own.  I am not sure about Eric but I think perhaps if Dylan had been killed by Gardener that Eric would have had a shootout with Gardener at the very least.

I don't see why Dylan wouldn't continue on his own.

1) It was his plan to do a shooting originally.
2) He was screaming and hollering the entire time; obviously really enjoying the events taking place in stark contrast to Eric who was quiet and methodical during the shooting.
3) I believe they only killed themselves because they thought the police had already or were going to enter the building shortly.

I don't doubt that Dylan would continue without Eric, but I don't think he'd have put as much effort in on his own. I imagine Dylan would make a straight shot through the school shooting whoever he stumbled upon until he found a quiet corner where he could kill himself. Dylan may have had the idea for NBK first, but it was ultimately nothing more than an elaborate and theatrical form of suicide for him. Plus all of his entries about going on a killing spree also mention him having a partner. Its quite possible (and highly likely IMO) that Dyaln was afraid to die alone which is why he never simply shot himself. Eric was the key thing that allowed NBK to become a reality to Dylan.

I still think he had the capacity to kill on his own, and that even if Eric had died, he would have still amassed a body count.

The fact that he was capable of killing with Eric is enough to convince me he could on his own. IMO though Eric (or a partner in general) was necessary for Dylan to cross the line of killing in the first place. Once NBK started then stopping wasnt an option. I imagine if Eric died that Dylan would probably kill anyone he saw out of "self defense" to insure he wasnt jumped and taken down by anyone. Its not that I think he couldn't so much as I don't think he'd have the drive without Eric. Eric help make the nightmare of NBK into reality.

In her book Sue said Dylan had to dig deep to match Eric's level of hate, childishly blaming distant relatives he hardly knew and preschool/kindergarten bullies for his own misery. A lot of depressed people tend to feel angry, sometimes willingly feeding into it simply because it allows them to feel SOMETHING. I think the violent fantasies and the planning of NBK as a whole started out as coping mechanisms. Once the day approached though and his depression hadn't lifted Dylan finally accepted NBK as his exit. I think a partner like Eric was necessary for him to go through with a shooting, but I'm not so sure Dylan would have ever killed if he wasnt suicidal. Killing and dying went hand in hand in his mind.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think that ever crossed their minds.  After the bombs failed I think everything was ad libbed.

I do think if Eric had been killed by Gardener that Dylan would not have continued on his own.  I am not sure about Eric but I think perhaps if Dylan had been killed by Gardener that Eric would have had a shootout with Gardener at the very least.

I don't see why Dylan wouldn't continue on his own.

1) It was his plan to do a shooting originally.
2) He was screaming and hollering the entire time; obviously really enjoying the events taking place in stark contrast to Eric who was quiet and methodical during the shooting.
3) I believe they only killed themselves because they thought the police had already or were going to enter the building shortly.

I don't doubt that Dylan would continue without Eric, but I don't think he'd have put as much effort in on his own. I imagine Dylan would make a straight shot through the school shooting whoever he stumbled upon until he found a quiet corner where he could kill himself. Dylan may have had the idea for NBK first, but it was ultimately nothing more than an elaborate and theatrical form of suicide for him. Plus all of his entries about going on a killing spree also mention him having a partner. Its quite possible (and highly likely IMO) that Dyaln was afraid to die alone which is why he never simply shot himself. Eric was the key thing that allowed NBK to become a reality to Dylan.

I still think he had the capacity to kill on his own, and that even if Eric had died, he would have still amassed a body count.

The fact that he was capable of killing with Eric is enough to convince me he could on his own. IMO though Eric (or a partner in general) was necessary for Dylan to cross the line of killing in the first place. Once NBK started then stopping wasnt an option. I imagine if Eric died that Dylan would probably kill anyone he saw out of "self defense" to insure he wasnt jumped and taken down by anyone. Its not that I think he couldn't so much as I don't think he'd have the drive without Eric. Eric help make the nightmare of NBK into reality.

In her book Sue said Dylan had to dig deep to match Eric's level of hate, childishly blaming distant relatives he hardly knew and preschool/kindergarten bullies for his own misery. A lot of depressed people tend to feel angry, sometimes willingly feeding into it simply because it allows them to feel SOMETHING. I think the violent fantasies and the planning of NBK as a whole started out as coping mechanisms. Once the day approached though and his depression hadn't lifted Dylan finally accepted NBK as his exit. I think a partner like Eric was necessary for him to go through with a shooting, but I'm not so sure Dylan would have ever killed if he wasnt suicidal. Killing and dying went hand in hand in his mind.

You made some good points but I don't see Eric doing this without Dylan either.I think they each needed each other to go through with such a thing and they were both severely depressed and suicidal as well as homicidal so together they had the perfect synergy.

PaintItBlack wrote:

I don't see Eric doing this without Dylan either.I think they each needed each other to go through with such a thing and they were both severely depressed and suicidal as well as homicidal so together they had the perfect synergy.

Exactly. I can imagine it's not easy to find a friend who'd be down for "a double suicide" let alone blowing up the school before doing it. They were on the same page.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think that ever crossed their minds.  After the bombs failed I think everything was ad libbed.

I do think if Eric had been killed by Gardener that Dylan would not have continued on his own.  I am not sure about Eric but I think perhaps if Dylan had been killed by Gardener that Eric would have had a shootout with Gardener at the very least.

I don't see why Dylan wouldn't continue on his own.

1) It was his plan to do a shooting originally.
2) He was screaming and hollering the entire time; obviously really enjoying the events taking place in stark contrast to Eric who was quiet and methodical during the shooting.
3) I believe they only killed themselves because they thought the police had already or were going to enter the building shortly.

I don't doubt that Dylan would continue without Eric, but I don't think he'd have put as much effort in on his own. I imagine Dylan would make a straight shot through the school shooting whoever he stumbled upon until he found a quiet corner where he could kill himself. Dylan may have had the idea for NBK first, but it was ultimately nothing more than an elaborate and theatrical form of suicide for him. Plus all of his entries about going on a killing spree also mention him having a partner. Its quite possible (and highly likely IMO) that Dyaln was afraid to die alone which is why he never simply shot himself. Eric was the key thing that allowed NBK to become a reality to Dylan.

I still think he had the capacity to kill on his own, and that even if Eric had died, he would have still amassed a body count.

The fact that he was capable of killing with Eric is enough to convince me he could on his own. IMO though Eric (or a partner in general) was necessary for Dylan to cross the line of killing in the first place. Once NBK started then stopping wasnt an option. I imagine if Eric died that Dylan would probably kill anyone he saw out of "self defense" to insure he wasnt jumped and taken down by anyone. Its not that I think he couldn't so much as I don't think he'd have the drive without Eric. Eric help make the nightmare of NBK into reality.

In her book Sue said Dylan had to dig deep to match Eric's level of hate, childishly blaming distant relatives he hardly knew and preschool/kindergarten bullies for his own misery. A lot of depressed people tend to feel angry, sometimes willingly feeding into it simply because it allows them to feel SOMETHING. I think the violent fantasies and the planning of NBK as a whole started out as coping mechanisms. Once the day approached though and his depression hadn't lifted Dylan finally accepted NBK as his exit. I think a partner like Eric was necessary for him to go through with a shooting, but I'm not so sure Dylan would have ever killed if he wasnt suicidal. Killing and dying went hand in hand in his mind.

You made some good points but I don't see Eric doing this without Dylan either.I think they each needed each other to go through with such a thing and they were both severely depressed and suicidal as well as homicidal so together they had the perfect synergy.

Oh for sure. Their anger and violence was very codependent. The way I like to describe it is "You kill for me and Ill die for you". Dylan saw killing as a way to force his hand in suicide, while Eric killed himself to escape punishment for killing. They both shared the same urges but in differing amounts. Dylan did want to kill but not nearly as much as he wanted to die, and Eric wanted to die but not as much as he wanted to kill. Opposite sides of the same coin. Columbine wouldn't have never happened without both of them supporting each other and fanning the flames of hate.

Nirvana92 wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I don't think that ever crossed their minds.  After the bombs failed I think everything was ad libbed.

I do think if Eric had been killed by Gardener that Dylan would not have continued on his own.  I am not sure about Eric but I think perhaps if Dylan had been killed by Gardener that Eric would have had a shootout with Gardener at the very least.

I don't see why Dylan wouldn't continue on his own.

1) It was his plan to do a shooting originally.
2) He was screaming and hollering the entire time; obviously really enjoying the events taking place in stark contrast to Eric who was quiet and methodical during the shooting.
3) I believe they only killed themselves because they thought the police had already or were going to enter the building shortly.

I don't doubt that Dylan would continue without Eric, but I don't think he'd have put as much effort in on his own. I imagine Dylan would make a straight shot through the school shooting whoever he stumbled upon until he found a quiet corner where he could kill himself. Dylan may have had the idea for NBK first, but it was ultimately nothing more than an elaborate and theatrical form of suicide for him. Plus all of his entries about going on a killing spree also mention him having a partner. Its quite possible (and highly likely IMO) that Dyaln was afraid to die alone which is why he never simply shot himself. Eric was the key thing that allowed NBK to become a reality to Dylan.

I still think he had the capacity to kill on his own, and that even if Eric had died, he would have still amassed a body count.

The fact that he was capable of killing with Eric is enough to convince me he could on his own. IMO though Eric (or a partner in general) was necessary for Dylan to cross the line of killing in the first place. Once NBK started then stopping wasnt an option. I imagine if Eric died that Dylan would probably kill anyone he saw out of "self defense" to insure he wasnt jumped and taken down by anyone. Its not that I think he couldn't so much as I don't think he'd have the drive without Eric. Eric help make the nightmare of NBK into reality.

In her book Sue said Dylan had to dig deep to match Eric's level of hate, childishly blaming distant relatives he hardly knew and preschool/kindergarten bullies for his own misery. A lot of depressed people tend to feel angry, sometimes willingly feeding into it simply because it allows them to feel SOMETHING. I think the violent fantasies and the planning of NBK as a whole started out as coping mechanisms. Once the day approached though and his depression hadn't lifted Dylan finally accepted NBK as his exit. I think a partner like Eric was necessary for him to go through with a shooting, but I'm not so sure Dylan would have ever killed if he wasnt suicidal. Killing and dying went hand in hand in his mind.

You made some good points but I don't see Eric doing this without Dylan either.I think they each needed each other to go through with such a thing and they were both severely depressed and suicidal as well as homicidal so together they had the perfect synergy.

Oh for sure. Their anger and violence was very codependent. The way I like to describe it is "You kill for me and Ill die for you". Dylan saw killing as a way to force his hand in suicide, while Eric killed himself to escape punishment for killing. They both shared the same urges but in differing amounts. Dylan did want to kill but not nearly as much as he wanted to die, and Eric wanted to die but not as much as he wanted to kill. Opposite sides of the same coin. Columbine wouldn't have never happened without both of them supporting each other and fanning the flames of hate.

Which to me is why Columbine is so interesting

Daniel Roughbough(sp) was shot by police

tommydee89 wrote:

Daniel Roughbough(sp) was shot by police

Negative, good sir.

Ivan wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan's behavior in the first moments of the massacre was totally wandering and directionless.  

Erratic shooting.  Going into the cafeteria and doing nothing.  Wandering the halls while Eric fights police.

Hard to see him continuing in any fashion if Eric dies by Gardner.

Yeah, shooting Daniel R (who he didn't even know was dead) on the way to check the cafeteria bombs is 'totally wandering and directionless'. Or how about him shooting Lance in the face? "Sure, I'll help". Was Eric holding his hand then?

It should be obvious Dylan had the capacity to kill on his own.

First of all, you are wrong about Daniel Rohrbough:

Physical evidence supports the findings that the victim, Daniel Rohrbough, was standing outside on the sidewalk when gunman Eric Harris shot him. Eric Harris was deliberately firing in the direction of Daniel Rohrbough, from the sidewalk leading from the west doors of the school, with a Highpoint Semi-Automatic Carbine rifle. Based upon the reconstruction, Daniel Rohrbough was most probably shot first in the left leg, which caused him to fall or turn to the right, exposing his left side to the gunman. As he was going down, the next two (2) shots, coming in rapid succession, struck Daniel in the chest and abdomen. Both rounds had the same trajectory and would prove to be fatal (27).

Second, Dylan only shooting someone once right in front of Eric, and then declining to shoot anyone when Eric could not see him, only proves that Dylan was not capable of doing it by himself.

His family thought so. They also had a recording of a police officer saying he saw a fellow officer killing Daniel. I should of said allegedly.

tommydee89 wrote:

His family thought  so. They also had a recording of a police officer saying he saw a fellow officer killing Daniel. I should of said allegedly.

Yes they did think that may have happened and ordered an investigation. The investigation ultimately proved the police had not killed Daniel. However fishy it seemed at the time.

lasttrain wrote:

Ivan wrote:

lasttrain wrote:

Dylan's behavior in the first moments of the massacre was totally wandering and directionless.  

Erratic shooting.  Going into the cafeteria and doing nothing.  Wandering the halls while Eric fights police.

Hard to see him continuing in any fashion if Eric dies by Gardner.

Yeah, shooting Daniel R (who he didn't even know was dead) on the way to check the cafeteria bombs is 'totally wandering and directionless'. Or how about him shooting Lance in the face? "Sure, I'll help". Was Eric holding his hand then?

It should be obvious Dylan had the capacity to kill on his own.

First of all, you are wrong about Daniel Rohrbough:

Physical evidence supports the findings that the victim, Daniel Rohrbough, was standing outside on the sidewalk when gunman Eric Harris shot him. Eric Harris was deliberately firing in the direction of Daniel Rohrbough, from the sidewalk leading from the west doors of the school, with a Highpoint Semi-Automatic Carbine rifle. Based upon the reconstruction, Daniel Rohrbough was most probably shot first in the left leg, which caused him to fall or turn to the right, exposing his left side to the gunman. As he was going down, the next two (2) shots, coming in rapid succession, struck Daniel in the chest and abdomen. Both rounds had the same trajectory and would prove to be fatal (27).

Second, Dylan only shooting someone once right in front of Eric, and then declining to shoot anyone when Eric could not see him, only proves that Dylan was not capable of doing it by himself.

Nope, he's not capable of shooting anyone on his own, yet he shot someone's face off? You can't be serious. Dylan ran down to check on the bombs in the Cafeteria and then ran back up the staircase. Eric was in the doorway shooting at a cop when Dylan went inside and starting shooting at students and hit one of them in ankle. Stop making up ridiculous excuses for Dylan. He's a murderer, just like Eric. He killed people, just like Eric. He WANTED to kill people, just like Eric and he had absolutely no problem doing it. He didn't 'decline' anything. No one forced him into Columbine to murder people. And depressed, follower, sad, emo Dylan is the one who came up with the idea to kill people.

Jenn wrote:

They were so sloppy with this thing that Dylan set his car bomb to go off at 11 PM.

Wrong.

When the bomb techs were loading the pipe bombs into the trailer one detonated setting off others etc. around 10:36 PM on April 20 1999.

sororityalpha wrote:

Jenn wrote:

They were so sloppy with this thing that Dylan set his car bomb to go off at 11 PM.

Wrong.

When the bomb techs were loading the pipe bombs into the trailer one detonated setting off others etc. around 10:36 PM on April 20 1999.

I'm not talking about a pipe bomb. I am talking about the bomb in Dylan's car.

What is your source that states Dylan set his car bomb to go off at 11:00 pm? That information is WRONG.