Old "E/D worship videos" youtube guy

Several years there was a guy on YT with a name like "JakIsBack."  On his account, he'd make "worship videos" to school shooters.

However, (this was back before Rohrbough got YT to auto-ban them all when he lied about the videos containing photographs of his dead son's body- NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED!) he was notable for making them of a higher quality than anyone else.

He'd start out with his avatar of him as a pissed-off looking South Park character dressed in a trench coat with a gun.  At the end of the video, he'd say, "Rest in Peace, with all heroes of School Shootings," then do a montage of various shooters. (ie, "Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris 198?-1999)?  I think when he left youtube he went to some board called "School shooters r us."


Does anyone remember this guy or how to get in touch with him on Twitter?  I'm pretty sure someone posted his old Twitter account info here long ago.

MnM wrote:

Okay, someone posted the answer to this on the old board....

However, (this was back before Rohrbough got YT to auto-ban them all when he lied about the videos containing photographs of his dead son's body- NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED!) he was notable for making them of a higher quality than anyone else.

He'd start out with his avatar of him as a pissed-off looking South Park character dressed in a trench coat with a gun.  At the end of the video, he'd say, "Rest in Peace, with all heroes of School Shootings," then do a montage of various shooters. (ie, "Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris 198?-1999)?  I think when he left youtube he went to some board called "School shooters r us."


Does anyone remember this guy or how to get in touch with him on Twitter?  I'm pretty sure someone posted his old Twitter account info here long ago.

Never seen or heard of anything by this dude.  I always tried to stay away from the worship videos.

xmichaelmyersii wrote:

MnM wrote:

Several years there was a guy on YT with a name like "JakIsBack."  On his account, he'd make "worship videos" to school shooters.

However, (this was back before Rohrbough got YT to auto-ban them all when he lied about the videos containing photographs of his dead son's body- NEVER FUCKING HAPPENED!) he was notable for making them of a higher quality than anyone else.

He'd start out with his avatar of him as a pissed-off looking South Park character dressed in a trench coat with a gun.  At the end of the video, he'd say, "Rest in Peace, with all heroes of School Shootings," then do a montage of various shooters. (ie, "Dylan Klebold, Eric Harris 198?-1999)?  I think when he left youtube he went to some board called "School shooters r us."


Does anyone remember this guy or how to get in touch with him on Twitter?  I'm pretty sure someone posted his old Twitter account info here long ago.

Never seen or heard of anything by this dude.  I always tried to stay away from the worship videos.

I always watched them when they were around.  I was always curious about the mentality of people that "worshiped" Eric and Dylan why they did so.

Especially interesting since he's not just a typical girl with criminal fetish.

Scypek wrote:

Especially interesting since he's not just a typical girl with criminal fetish.

This thread is old, but I just HAVE to say something about this.

Why do people look down on E/D's "fangirls"?

These girls have a fetish for a couple of prolific shooters, so what?

All over the internet, men post their rape fetish fantasies, post on forums dedicated to discussing their fantasies of torturing and killing women, or engage in auto-erotic asphyxiation sites. And when they posts these things, people just accept that sexuality is a weird thing, and because these guys are doing no harm, who cares?

But when girls or women have a fetish for a bad-boy murderer, everyone looks down on them and treats them like shit for it.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Scypek wrote:

Especially interesting since he's not just a typical girl with criminal fetish.

This thread is old, but I just HAVE to say something about this.

Why do people look down on E/D's "fangirls"?

These girls have a fetish for a couple of prolific shooters, so what?

All over the internet, men post their rape fetish fantasies, post on forums dedicated to discussing their fantasies of torturing and killing women, or engage in auto-erotic asphyxiation sites. And when they posts these things, people just accept that sexuality is a weird thing, and because these guys are doing no harm, who cares?

But when girls or women have a fetish for a bad-boy murderer, everyone looks down on them and treats them like shit for it.

Agreed, to a certain point.  Double standards suck.  BUT--the manner in which a lot of female fans fetishize is such stereotypical "save them from themselves" "attracted to a murderer because murder is a dominant macho take-charge act" bullshit that it makes me nauseous.  This evo-psych culturally conditioned conformist horse shit has to stop.  They should evaluate themselves, have some damn self-awareness, and quit poisoning it with their stupid Beiber-fangirl-like mindless lust that makes it impossible for them to articulate complex emotions without such words as "ugh" and "FEEEEEEEEELS."  If their true-born naturally-occurring emotional responses are that incomprehensible to them, that much at odds with a modicum of rational thought?  I suggest they 1) hit the bottle, it works as a temporary thicker skin, and 2) do some reading and exercises about how to intelligently describe intense and/or unpleasant emotions.  You can feel intensely and think intensely at the same time, people.  Descartes was wrong in that.

(Also, you think fangirls have it bad?  Try being an angry, ostracized fanboy with a GAY crush on one or both of them.  And an obsession with weapons.)

EDITED: I do not mean this in a disrespectful way.  I am peeved about many things, and I do not always state things in the kindest tone, but I am not angry at you or anyone in particular, overboard in annoyance at certain kinds of fans maybe, but that's anger.  Anger happens.  (Don't ban me please.)

Have seen fangirls saying that omg they have eric feeeeeeeeeeeeeels so many times on Tumblr. I'm really not even sure what that means.

I've seen that so many times too. I wish I knew what it meant too. I've also seen so many heated arguments on the tag . I wish people would realize it's okay to be fascinated with the physcology behind Eric and Dylan and even consider them attractive WITHOUT condoning and glorifying their actions!!! It's ridiculous how judgemental people can be!!

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EDITED: I do not mean this in a disrespectful way.

I'm not that sensitive. Speak freely.

I don't have a crush on either E or D. My obsession with Columbine is philosophical. I think E/D's actions raise a lot of fundamental philosophical questions about morality (If you're going to die, why NOT take people with you? Of what importance is morality?) and also the problem of the "best way to live" (If violence feels good, should you act on it? Is there any other guide in life besides pleasure?).

I just got pissed off that a girl with a crush is "pathetic" but a guy with a crush is "horny".

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Agreed, to a certain point.  Double standards suck.  BUT--the manner in which a lot of female fans fetishize is such stereotypical "save them from themselves" "attracted to a murderer because murder is a dominant macho take-charge act" bullshit that it makes me nauseous.

I get your point. A lot of the things these fangirls do are plain dumb and show no intelligence, but it's really no different than all the dumb comments the males leave all over the YouTube videos of Britney Spears -and no one abuses them for acting like lobotomized cavemen. Dumb lust is acceptable for men, but not for women.

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(Also, you think fangirls have it bad?  Try being an angry, ostracized fanboy with a GAY crush on one or both of them.  And an obsession with weapons.)

I don't know that I agree with that. The gay E/D fans are my favorite part of Tumblr. Maybe they do get the abuse too, I don't know, but it's the fangirls -and especially fanwomen- that I see get the worst animosity.

And that animosity isn't just on Tumblr. I was looking at "acolumbinesite" a while back, and the author of the site mentions those two twins who became infatuated with E/D and came to Littleton to commit suicide close to where E/D died. The author of the site says it's the stupidest thing she's ever heard. Really? Her website is dripping with compassion for E/D, but she looks down the nose at two suicidal women who only killed themselves (and didn't try and take others with them). So, in her eyes, we should have compassion for mass murderers, but scoff at confused, suicidal women? It's not hard to understand why someone suicidal would find comfort in E/D's (particularly Dylan's) despair.

And as for an obsession with weapons? Everyone loves an angry guy who's armed to the fucking teeth. That's why Columbine is so popular.

FredPete wrote:

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Scypek wrote:

Especially interesting since he's not just a typical girl with criminal fetish.

This thread is old, but I just HAVE to say something about this.

Why do people look down on E/D's "fangirls"?

These girls have a fetish for a couple of prolific shooters, so what?

All over the internet, men post their rape fetish fantasies, post on forums dedicated to discussing their fantasies of torturing and killing women, or engage in auto-erotic asphyxiation sites. And when they posts these things, people just accept that sexuality is a weird thing, and because these guys are doing no harm, who cares?

But when girls or women have a fetish for a bad-boy murderer, everyone looks down on them and treats them like shit for it.

Agreed, to a certain point.  Double standards suck.  BUT--the manner in which a lot of female fans fetishize is such stereotypical "save them from themselves" "attracted to a murderer because murder is a dominant macho take-charge act" bullshit that it makes me nauseous.  This evo-psych culturally conditioned conformist horse shit has to stop.  They should evaluate themselves, have some damn self-awareness, and quit poisoning it with their stupid Beiber-fangirl-like mindless lust that makes it impossible for them to articulate complex emotions without such words as "ugh" and "FEEEEEEEEELS."  If their true-born naturally-occurring emotional responses are that incomprehensible to them, that much at odds with a modicum of rational thought?  I suggest they 1) hit the bottle, it works as a temporary thicker skin, and 2) do some reading and exercises about how to intelligently describe intense and/or unpleasant emotions.  You can feel intensely and think intensely at the same time, people.  Descartes was wrong in that.

This is beautiful. I have never seen the reality of some of those people summarized more perfectly than you just did here. While it's certainly not everyone's business what other people feel or think, these people put this out for the universe to see, and many of them love the negative attention, despite the fact that they try to portray themselves as not caring about what other people have to say at all. I know there are some people who generalize anyone who does not hate Dylan and Eric as disgusting, and I know that simply finding them attractive is not a crime, nor does it immediately imply that they all condone their actions. But there are a number of them who talk out of their asses, don't have a remote understanding of anything they're talking about and have no intention or desire to try to, and just latch onto this "fandom" knowing it will more than likely shock others. I know, again, that not everyone feels or behaves that way, and that a number of people have very strong feelings behind why it is they view Dylan and Eric the way that they do, whether I, or anyone else can see it through the same lens or not.

This is truly an amazing post.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

I just got pissed off that a girl with a crush is "pathetic" but a guy with a crush is "horny".

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Agreed, to a certain point.  Double standards suck.  BUT--the manner in which a lot of female fans fetishize is such stereotypical "save them from themselves" "attracted to a murderer because murder is a dominant macho take-charge act" bullshit that it makes me nauseous.

I get your point. A lot of the things these fangirls do are plain dumb and show no intelligence, but it's really no different than all the dumb comments the males leave all over the YouTube videos of Britney Spears -and no one abuses them for acting like lobotomized cavemen. Dumb lust is acceptable for men, but not for women.


And that animosity isn't just on Tumblr. I was looking at "acolumbinesite" a while back, and the author of the site mentions those two twins who became infatuated with E/D and came to Littleton to commit suicide close to where E/D died. The author of the site says it's the stupidest thing she's ever heard. Really? Her website is dripping with compassion for E/D, but she looks down the nose at two suicidal women who only killed themselves (and didn't try and take others with them). So, in her eyes, we should have compassion for mass murderers, but scoff at confused, suicidal women? It's not hard to understand why someone suicidal would find comfort in E/D's (particularly Dylan's) despair.

You are absolutely right about this, and it personally disgusts me, too. However, I think that the bulk of the male Britney Spears (et al.) ilk are just as ridiculous as some of the females who do this with killers. I don't think one is less obnoxious and brainless than the other.

I've never read what you're discussing here about the suicidal girls on acolumbinesite. It's really disappointing to hear that she said that. That site does have many wonderful points, but I also know that there's quite a bit of information there that is not as researched as it is promoted as being.

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I've never read what you're discussing here about the suicidal girls on acolumbinesite. It's really disappointing to hear that she said that. That site does have many wonderful points, but I also know that there's quite a bit of information there that is not as researched as it is promoted as being.

The post I'm referring to on acolumbinesite is on the main page (second page of the comments section), and was posted on 11-22-10. She says:

QUOTE:
"This has got to be one of the dumbest things I've heard in a while.

I hate to say that about someone who's just lost their sister and tried to kill themselves but this really does take the cake. A pair of twin sisters from Australia decided that they would travel to Colorado to commit suicide because of their appreciation for Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold. What really gets me about this pair is they weren't hot-headed teens. No. They were 29 years old. Old enough to have a little more sense and understanding of the permanency of suicide and how it affects those who are left behind.

[author describes news article]

Sounds to me like the surviving twin is denying the Columbine link because she knows how ridiculous it is to attempt suicide because of two killers that died over 10 years ago. Harsh assessment? Possibly. But this kind of dramatic nonsense rubs me the wrong way. Enough people have suffered on account of what happened at Columbine without crap like this piling on top of it. I suppose the bright side is they only tried to kill themselves."
:END QUOTE

acolumbinesite is probably the best collection of free information for people who've just googled Columbine out of curiosity. It's got an overview of the event, photos, and E/D's journals and drawings. But after I read that comment, that was it for me.

The author of the site clearly gets her own type of pleasure out of caring about E/D and their victims and keeping their memory alive, and I have no problem whatsoever with that.

But the author of that site is acting like she OWNS Columbine by saying "enough people have suffered on account of what happened at Columbine without crap like this piling on top of it". She didn't suffer at Columbine herself, and she claims on the website that she isn't close to anyone who has suffered there, so why is she angry at two twin women who are obviously very confused, desperate, and suffering?

Travelling all the way from Australia to Colorado to commit suicide is extreme, but these women weren't hurting anyone other than themselves. If they felt some sort of connection to E/D (E/D would have been the same age as these women if they were still alive) and they wanted to commit suicide in a place that was comforting to them, then all the best to them.

E/D committed suicide, and they were vicious enough to attempt to take 500+ innocent lives with them. The author of acolumbinesite is basically saying that senseless mass murder will get you compassion, but if you commit suicide alone (in whatever quirky manner brings you comfort in those final moments) you'll only get mocked. She condemns these twins as immoral because they're "piling more suffering on top of Columbine", but she doesn't seem to feel that kind of morally outraged animosity towards E/D for doing Columbine to begin with.

Personally, I don't care if the web author wants to "mother" Eric and Dylan and feel sorry for these mass murdering teenage boys, but the suffering that many E/D fans feel is just as important as E/D's suffering. E/D don't deserve more compassion than everyone else in the human race.

What really pissed me off is

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What really gets me about this pair is they weren't hot-headed teens. No. They were 29 years old. Old enough to have a little more sense and understanding of the permanency of suicide and how it affects those who are left behind.

Like suicide was some kind of cool teenage rebel bullshit, making suicidal persons look like some vicious evil willing to hurt everyone around them. Probably doesn't know what it feels like?

Also they just had an interest, they choose a place they wanted to, one has the right to plan his suicide however he wants, it's 'their own tragedy' and doesn't pile up to Columbine.

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"BUT--the manner in which a lot of female fans fetishize is such stereotypical "save them from themselves" "attracted to a murderer because murder is a dominant macho take-charge act" bullshit that it makes me nauseous.  This evo-psych culturally conditioned conformist horse shit has to stop."

It's bullshit to you but not to them.Obviously this has been going on since the beginning,.Girls consider it a rich part of their fantasy life or they wouldn't keep it going.

It doesn't have to stop.Why should it have to stop because people of your mindset find it distasteful? If people don't wish to stop a type of  behavior, they aren't going to. There are surely other outlets you can find since you dislike this aspect of the subculture so much?

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Scypek wrote:

Especially interesting since he's not just a typical girl with criminal fetish.

This thread is old, but I just HAVE to say something about this.

Why do people look down on E/D's "fangirls"?

These girls have a fetish for a couple of prolific shooters, so what?

All over the internet, men post their rape fetish fantasies, post on forums dedicated to discussing their fantasies of torturing and killing women, or engage in auto-erotic asphyxiation sites. And when they posts these things, people just accept that sexuality is a weird thing, and because these guys are doing no harm, who cares?

But when girls or women have a fetish for a bad-boy murderer, everyone looks down on them and treats them like shit for it.

Agreed, to a certain point.  Double standards suck.  BUT--the manner in which a lot of female fans fetishize is such stereotypical "save them from themselves" "attracted to a murderer because murder is a dominant macho take-charge act" bullshit that it makes me nauseous.  This evo-psych culturally conditioned conformist horse shit has to stop.  They should evaluate themselves, have some damn self-awareness, and quit poisoning it with their stupid Beiber-fangirl-like mindless lust that makes it impossible for them to articulate complex emotions without such words as "ugh" and "FEEEEEEEEELS."  If their true-born naturally-occurring emotional responses are that incomprehensible to them, that much at odds with a modicum of rational thought?  I suggest they 1) hit the bottle, it works as a temporary thicker skin, and 2) do some reading and exercises about how to intelligently describe intense and/or unpleasant emotions.  You can feel intensely and think intensely at the same time, people.  Descartes was wrong in that.

(Also, you think fangirls have it bad?  Try being an angry, ostracized fanboy with a GAY crush on one or both of them.  And an obsession with weapons.)

EDITED: I do not mean this in a disrespectful way.  I am peeved about many things, and I do not always state things in the kindest tone, but I am not angry at you or anyone in particular, overboard in annoyance at certain kinds of fans maybe, but that's anger.  Anger happens.  (Don't ban me please.)

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

Scypek wrote:

Especially interesting since he's not just a typical girl with criminal fetish.

This thread is old, but I just HAVE to say something about this.

Why do people look down on E/D's "fangirls"?

These girls have a fetish for a couple of prolific shooters, so what?

All over the internet, men post their rape fetish fantasies, post on forums dedicated to discussing their fantasies of torturing and killing women, or engage in auto-erotic asphyxiation sites. And when they posts these things, people just accept that sexuality is a weird thing, and because these guys are doing no harm, who cares?

But when girls or women have a fetish for a bad-boy murderer, everyone looks down on them and treats them like shit for it.

DarkofNight wrote:

FredPete wrote:

"BUT--the manner in which a lot of female fans fetishize is such stereotypical "save them from themselves" "attracted to a murderer because murder is a dominant macho take-charge act" bullshit that it makes me nauseous.  This evo-psych culturally conditioned conformist horse shit has to stop."

It's bullshit to you but not to them.Obviously this has been going on since the beginning,.Girls consider it a rich part of their fantasy life or they wouldn't keep it going.

I did neglect to say that I find "lobotomized neanderthals" e.g, "Duhuhhuhhhh, Britney Speeeeeerz, I never listened to her moozik," obnoxious too.  You also seem to have missed my point.  What irks me is the particular kind of lust/attraction that ignores and sometimes deprecates who they were as complete people, including before the massacre and after.  These people who 1) claim to "love" them despite the shooting, and wish they could have stopped it, and 2) only "love" them because they shot people and wouldn't have cared otherwise are, in my opinion, equally repulsive.

DarkofNight wrote:

It doesn't have to stop.Why should it have to stop because people of your mindset find it distasteful? If people don't wish to stop a type of  behavior, they aren't going to. There are surely other outlets you can find since you dislike this aspect of the subculture so much?

I know it won't stop.  It's a figure of speech.  I don't expect heaven and earth to move to my preferences because I stated an opinion on a forum.  Also, I have an awkwardly intense worshipful fanboy crush on one of them, so I'm not denigrating attraction itself.  I am denigrating attraction based on shallow concepts.

Let's all agree on one thing. What we all hate is DUMBNESS.

But, on the top of that hate list, for me, is DISRESPECT.

I don't care why people are interested in E/D. I don't care if they lust after them, fantasize about saving them, write gay fanfiction about them, or have customized toilet paper printed up with the death photo on it. Whatever makes your life a better place.

E/D are dead. And nothing anyone does or says about them is going to hurt them.

But it's the suffering of the people who are still alive that concerns me. A good deal of people are attracted to E/D because they are suffering themselves. The moment someone mentions "fangirl" or "worshiper" they become an easy target.

Instead of Columbiners supporting each other, they form cliques and bash each other up over whose interest in Columbine is acceptable and whose isn't.

If someone tells me they're a "fan", I'm going to ask them why. If the only word that comes out of their mouth is "feeeeeeeeels" then I'm going to assume they're not on the same intellectual level as me and leave them in peace. If they follow me around moaning "feeeeeeeels", I'm probably going to slap them. But really, I haven't lived other people's lives and I don't know the private suffering that has caused them to become who they are, so I NEVER attack someone unless they started it.

No one should attack the "fans" just because they're an easy target.

THAT'S what got me angry in the first place. Let's all just get along, OK?

Well, I put the victims on a higher pedestal than E+D, so I'm much more offended when someone bashes the victims than E+D.  Typically people's reasons for hating on E+D are grounded in reality, whereas people's reasons for hating the victims are typically petty or not grounded in reality at all.

sergeant hartman wrote:

Well, I put the victims on a higher pedestal than E+D, so I'm much more offended when someone bashes the victims than E+D.  Typically people's reasons for hating on E+D are grounded in reality, whereas people's reasons for hating the victims are typically petty or not grounded in reality at all.

Of course people are going to hate E/D. They killed real people. Most people can imagine either themselves or their child among the dead. But having a grounded reason for hating E/D doesn't excuse sadistic behavior like sending hate mail to their families.

Some E/D fans appear to hate the victims because they bear a strong resemblance to the "normal" families who make their lives a misery everyday. I don't have a problem with people hating the victims as a way to let off steam, as long as they don't say they deserved to die, and as long as they don't go out of their way to trash the victims in front of their families.

It's a matter intentions. A lot of E/D fans are people in suffering and they probably do extreme things to cope with that suffering. That needs to be taken into account. As long as their intentions aren't sadistic (intentional to cause pain to someone) I don't care what weirdness they indulge in, whether it's fanfiction about rescuing Dylan from his despair, animations attacking "normal" people, or girls having custom made panties printed up with the death photo on the ass.

As long as people don't hurt anyone in real life, and as long as they make every effort to be respectful when dealing with REAL encounters with people, I have no problem with them doing whatever makes them happy.

What I'm saying is, human happiness is important. And you shouldn't undermine someone's happiness just because they're an easy target and you've got an easy opportunity to increase your sense of power.

I don't know why people can't imagine E &D as a member of their families or their child or a close friend and see how they'd feel then.See if they could find any sympathy or empathy there.Most people who are asked these questions who have no sympathy for them or their parents have a few pat responses which go as follows. They say that if E &D were a friend of theirs or their child, they'd immediately disown them and hate them forever.They then say that if E &D lived, they'd celebrate them getting executed when the time comes and they'd spend the rest of their lives groveling in front of the victims parents to try to make it up to them.
Such statements make me laugh in their pure ridiculousness .I seriously doubt that if that if their child ,close relative or best friend was a shooter they'd be very likely or find it very easy to do any of those things.

DarkofNight, this is an excellent idea for a new thread. I'm going to create it now. How would YOU react if E/D were YOUR child?

Thank you! I've thought a lot about this.I'm not a parent and not planning on it.I would honestly be afraid that I would not survive it.That the grieving would put such a strain on me physically that I would become ill and die. More than that, I'd think it would be worse than being the parent of a victim.If you are the parent of a killer you have the whole world hating you and judging you and calling for your head.Most people will never have an ounce of sympathy for you and will deny that your loss is legitimate.Victims family's will be out for blood.You will know that the entire world celebrates your child's death.You will be left alone to grieve for your baby with little help or support.I think it would be a living Hell that you could never fully escape.I would still love, adore ,grieve for and miss my child but I think I'd be like the living dead  for a long time if not forever.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

DarkofNight, this is an excellent idea for a new thread. I'm going to create it now. How would YOU react if E/D were YOUR child?

Boys can reject "fangirls" and "worshiper", but DEAD boys can't. Maybe that's a reason why Eric and Dylan have so much of them.

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Yes.Your disdain or hatred or whatever you'd call it for E &D is well known.I don't have any desire to bash the victims myself.And I know what its like to lose someone you deeply love.Although,I do think there is no way they could have been as perfect and flawless as they are portrayed as because I don't see how any human being could be like .To you, someones reasons for hating the victims may be petty or not grounded in reality but the victims like E &D besides being individuals are also seen as symbols and someone might see in them the same type of popular people who press them daily and therefore they may not find their reasoning petty at all. To me, it is offensive because E &D were the original victims.If they hadn't felt deeply victimized , this wopuld not have ever started brewing.I know you'll disagree so there is no need for an endless debate . I try to present the other side, the other perspective here which is not often looked at or attempts made to understand.Because there are reasons behind the behaviors in followers that people find so objectionable and its not just these people are sick and evil.

Hm.  I tend to see people as individuals and not symbols.  Haters of E+D hate them because, "They killed 13 people."  Haters of the victims say things like, "I want to piss on Rachel Scott's grave because she was a hardcore bully."  I think there's more truth in the former statement.

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Some E/D fans appear to hate the victims because they bear a strong resemblance to the "normal" families who make their lives a misery everyday

I'm sorry, but this isn't that much different from hating random black people who you don't know because they resemble some black people who used to give you a difficult time.

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as long as they don't say they deserved to die

They say this all the time.

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as they don't go out of their way to trash the victims in front of their families.

They already did this to Tom Mauser.

I think its worth saying that I've heard countless haters of E &D say things like" I wish they had suffered more." "I would have loved to torture them to death."  " I wish they had been buried so I could go piss/shit on their graves."   "I'm glad those two fags got bullied.They deserved to be picked on more. I'd have bullied them myself if I could have."  "I'm glad they killed themselves.They deserved to die. I'm only sorry they went out so quickly."  " Their worthless parents should have killed themselves along with their piece of shit kids."  "They should have been executed for ever breeding."   "E &D didn't deserve the air they breathed.They should have never been allowed to live in the first place."  

All these are EXACT quotes  from E &D haters .Many people believe that saying such things is a wonderful thing to do and its justified .I don't agree and never will.  Tom  Mauser has some supporters that you can only call rabid.I had a few come after me hard on YT when I wasn't saying anything  bad about the victims . Again, as with most things , there are usually two sides to the story.

sergeant hartman,

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Some E/D fans appear to hate the victims because they bear a strong resemblance to the "normal" families who make their lives a misery everyday

I'm sorry, but this isn't that much different from hating random black people who you don't know because they resemble some black people who used to give you a difficult time.

There's a few subtle differences. "Black" is a skin color, and a person has no choice over it. The "normality" E/D fans are referring to is a personality trait, and an act of free will.

Some people have learnt that the "normal" person will treat them poorly and are choosing to do so. Their hate towards "normal" people makes sense to me. It's protective and necessary. A person can't be expected to keep tolerating poor treatment, and they can't be expected to leave themselves vulnerable by giving everyone a chance time-after-time just in case the next person who comes along is one of the good ones.

The other subtle difference comes from what the person does with their hate. Obviously, some expressions of hate are genuine free speech, and others are immoral.

I will treat people as individuals on a case-be-case. If they show respect to me, I will do the same. However, watching the videos of E/D's victims families, I see evidence that these families would choose to be rude to me, and I assume many of the "fans" feel the same.

Have you ever considered that the victim's families are public figures the same way that celebrities, politicians, etc. are? Some of the people who hate them may not be hating them because their children were victims of E/D, but because they don't like their personalities and the things they say. Mr. Mauser, for instance, made some shitty comments about single moms, even though E/D's families weren't single parent households. I would also be angered by some of Mauser's other comments even if they were coming from my favorite bands. His son's death aside, I just don't like Mr. Mauser.

I could say, with reasonable certainty, that if I had been a student at Columbine, none of the victims families would have allowed me to be a friend of their child. Also, if I had a child who had been shot at Columbine by E/D, I'm certain the other victim's families would not have included me among them in their sympathetic gatherings.

I'm not a "fan". I don't support E/D's actions. But I also think most of the victim's families were ignorant and thoughtless people, and I don't think they deserve my sympathy.

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as long as they don't say they deserved to die

They say this all the time.

They already did this to Tom Mauser.

I know that some E/D fans behave in horrible ways. But you said yourself that generalizing is wrong. A lot of E/D fans claim to feel great sympathy for the victims and wish they could have stopped the massacre. They feel more sympathy than I do!

As I've said, my interest in Columbine is mostly philosophical. I'm trying to find an answer to the question "Why should a person be moral?"

StinkyOldgrapes,you brought up a couple of points I'd like to address.Some of the victims parents  including Mr.Mauser have said very denigrating things both to and about E &D sympathizers .Now I understand why they would feel that way and why they would say  those things. But I think that Mr.Mauser comments may have influenced a few people to go to his YT page and start harassing him.I'm  sure that's not the case with all of them and some people started because they just wanted to. But the fact is that if you insult people and make them angry they are going to strike back at you, no matter who is in the right or wrong.
I sympathize with Mr.Mauser's pain &loss a lot  but he and his wife are not always perfect in their actions like I think sympathizers to the victims often  see them as being. Mr.Mauser included a very  mean spirited letter that he'd written to E &D's families in his book and that made me lose interest in ever reading the book . I remember his wife once said some denigrating things about Dylan's Mother , a woman she'd never met. She said she refused to meet her because she thought she was a "inherent manipulator" or something like that. She also insulted Eric's Mom by saying she had a "cruel Mouth" .I don't necessarily  accept that the Harris parents believe Eric was a psychopath based on the Mausers interpretation of the meeting. Most do  but I don't see enough evidence that's true.I know the Mausers believe that so perhaps the Harris parents just didn't contradict them as they feared it might start an argument in an already tense situation. 


I too was appalled at the owner of a Columbine site comments about the two sisters who tried to commit suicide .I thought her comments were cruel, judgmental and very unneeded.
The Sisters hurt nobody except themselves and their own family. The site owner certainly was not affected in any way .Those comments made me see her in a new light and I now only visit the site a few times a year.

DarkofNight wrote:

StinkyOldgrapes,you brought up a couple of points I'd like to address.Some of the victims parents including Mr.Mauser have said very denigrating things both to and about E &D sympathizers. Now I understand why they would feel that way and why they would say those things. But I think that Mr.Mauser comments may have influenced a few people to go to his YT page and start harassing him.

I agree. I think the behavior of many of E/D's haters is appalling. Mr. Mauser appears to have a fan club of his own that attack anyone showing sympathy to E/D, and they've been every bit as cruel as the worst of E/D's fans have been, often attacking people whose interest in E/D is a positive one.

In reality, the Columbine victims get too much sympathy. The loss of their children is no different than parents who've lost a child to cancer, a car crash, suicide, or a random accident. The Columbine victims didn't DESERVE to die, but the pain of their families isn't superior to the pain of other families who've lost children.

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I too was appalled at the owner of a Columbine site comments about the two sisters who tried to commit suicide .I thought her comments were cruel, judgmental and very unneeded.

I found the comment bizarre. The entire website shows enormous sympathy to E/D, and sympathy for their victims. Yet the author has disgust for the suffering of anyone who isn't E/D or their victims, it seems. The reason she behaves this way is probably because she gets some personal pleasure out of caring about E/D and their victims, and couldn't give a rat's ass about people that don't give her that pleasure. You have to commit a school shooting before the author of acolumbinesite will care about you.

I've always "hated on" Eric and Dylan because they killed 13 people.  Because they said that they wanted most of the world to die.  Because they hurt their parents in a terrible way.  Because Eric said that he wanted to torture Brooks and his family.  I've never hated on them because they were outcasts or bullied.  Believe it or not, I don't like it when someone says that they would have bullied Eric and Dylan.  

I've spoken about my distaste for the more cruel fans of E+D before.  I've pointed out how silly it is to hate on Rachel Scott because, "She was a snobby hardcore bully and therefore I'm glad that she's dead."  Sometimes I get this response: "Well, they wouldn't have these feelings if they weren't bullied in the first place."  Which is probably correct.  I get it.  That said, my statement still stands firm.  I'm not going to sit here and smile and nod my head when a dead girl is being flamed for something that she didn't do.  Just like I don't expect DarkofNight to do nothing when people flame E+D for something that they did not do.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I've always "hated on" Eric and Dylan because they killed 13 people.  Because they said that they wanted most of the world to die.  Because they hurt their parents in a terrible way.  Because Eric said that he wanted to torture Brooks and his family.  I've never hated on them because they were outcasts or bullied.  Believe it or not, I don't like it when someone says that they would have bullied Eric and Dylan.  

I've spoken about my distaste for the more cruel fans of E+D before.  I've pointed out how silly it is to hate on Rachel Scott because, "She was a snobby hardcore bully and therefore I'm glad that she's dead."  Sometimes I get this response: "Well, they wouldn't have these feelings if they weren't bullied in the first place."  Which is probably correct.  I get it.  That said, my statement still stands firm.  I'm not going to sit here and smile and nod my head when a dead girl is being flamed for something that she didn't do.  Just like I don't expect DarkofNight to do nothing when people flame E+D for something that they did not do.

Very well said.

Grandma wrote:

Boys can reject "fangirls" and "worshiper", but DEAD boys can't. Maybe that's a reason why Eric and Dylan have so much of them.

This is the same reason submissive female pop stars and cute boy bands sell so well. They're non-threatening.

Although, even while they were alive, E/D seemed strangely non-threatening. In their death photo, they look about thirteen years old.

E/D shared a lot of themselves with the world. They openly wore clothes that made them feel powerful (like two children dressing up), Eric ranted to the open internet and encouraged people to contact him, and they made their own movies showcasing their interests to anyone who'd watch. E/D were very open with the world. It's both endearing and immature. It makes them seem a lot younger than 17 at times.

I'm not sure if DarkofNight is coming back, but I have a question:

Why do E+D fans care if the victims are thought of as being perfect little angels? Seriously, why does it matter? Aren't most victims of massacres treated with a lot of respect?

I think DarkofNight isn't aware of the address change because they haven't been back since the day we changed the address. I'm going to see if I can get someone who has a Tumblr account to post the new address on the Columbine tag.

Since you asked me directly, I'll answer. It annoys me because nobody can be as perfect and flawless as the victims are portrayed as being . Especially Rachel .It is not possible .No human is. I don't like how people portray the victims as being oh so good, and the E &D as being oh so bad when they were all a group of teenagers .It matters to me because I find it to be consistently irritating. Flame me, whatever.That is my answer.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I'm not sure if DarkofNight is coming back, but I have a question:

Why do E+D fans care if the victims are thought of as being perfect little angels?  Seriously, why does it matter?  Aren't most victims of massacres treated with a lot of respect?

I found it with the generous help of InFiNiNcEX5 .

Jenn wrote:

I think DarkofNight isn't aware of the address change because they haven't been back since the day we changed the address. I'm going to see if I can get someone who has a Tumblr account to post the new address on the Columbine tag.

DarkofNight wrote:

Since you asked me directly, I'll answer. It annoys me because nobody can be as perfect and flawless as the victims are portrayed as being . Especially Rachel .It is not possible .No human is. I don't like how people portray the victims as being oh so good, and the E &D as being oh so bad when they were all a group of teenagers .It matters to me because I find it to be consistently irritating. Flame me, whatever.That is my answer.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I'm not sure if DarkofNight is coming back, but I have a question:

Why do E+D fans care if the victims are thought of as being perfect little angels?  Seriously, why does it matter?  Aren't most victims of massacres treated with a lot of respect?

Hey DarkofNight, good to see you back on the board.

DarkofNight wrote:

Since you asked me directly, I'll answer. It annoys me because nobody can be as perfect and flawless as the victims are portrayed as being . Especially Rachel .It is not possible .No human is. I don't like how people portray the victims as being oh so good, and the E &D as being oh so bad when they were all a group of teenagers .It matters to me because I find it to be consistently irritating. Flame me, whatever.That is my answer.

Don't you think that E+D are flamed more often because they killed 13 people?  Isn't it more reasonable to hate on someone who killed that many people than it is to hate on someone who happened to be in the room at the time?

Anyway, almost anyone young who dies tragically is treated with a ton of respect.  The victims of Columbine aren't special in that regard.  

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Flame me, whatever

Getting a little tired of being preemptively scolded...

sergeant hartman wrote:

Anyway, almost anyone young who dies tragically is treated with a ton of respect.  The victims of Columbine aren't special in that regard.

No personal offence intended (and I honestly mean that), but sometimes I wonder if you're even living on the same planet as I am.

Name one other school shooting where the victims were ascended to the level of martyrs?

What does it matter, you say? Well, it means that E/D were no longer two guys who killed ordinary teenagers. They're now two teenagers who killed God's messengers.

I apologize, sergeant hartman, if that previous post sounded harsh. I wasn't attacking you. We just disagree on... well, everything.

Better just agree to disagree

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

Anyway, almost anyone young who dies tragically is treated with a ton of respect.  The victims of Columbine aren't special in that regard.

No personal offence intended (and I honestly mean that), but sometimes I wonder if you're even living on the same planet as I am.

Name one other school shooting where the victims were ascended to the level of martyrs?

I see only two Columbine kids who were called martyrs, Rachel Scott and Cassie Bernall.  They were called martyrs by their parents because of their faith.  That doesn't mean that they were being called perfect.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"You will be reading portions of her private journals and see­ing some of the drawings she made on their pages. Our pur­pose isn’t to hold Rachel up as some kind of perfect, sinless saint because she was as frail and fallen as all of us, as her brothers and sisters are well aware."

Thank you .It is nice to see you too. I enjoy your posts.

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

Since you asked me directly, I'll answer. It annoys me because nobody can be as perfect and flawless as the victims are portrayed as being . Especially Rachel .It is not possible .No human is. I don't like how people portray the victims as being oh so good, and the E &D as being oh so bad when they were all a group of teenagers .It matters to me because I find it to be consistently irritating. Flame me, whatever.That is my answer.

sergeant hartman wrote:

I'm not sure if DarkofNight is coming back, but I have a question:

Why do E+D fans care if the victims are thought of as being perfect little angels?  Seriously, why does it matter?  Aren't most victims of massacres treated with a lot of respect?

Hey DarkofNight, good to see you back on the board.

Depends on how you look at it as I've spoken of before .People forget that E &D were teenagers too and depending on what you believe there were factors that caused the shooting outside of just craziness and evilness which to most is the answer.I think that people's perceptions of the victims as perfect and angelic is unrealistic and probably very inaccurate .
As a fan I am on the defensive because I'm used to being judged and criticized .I try not to be rude but its always there and not something I can control.

sergeant hartman wrote:

DarkofNight wrote:

Since you asked me directly, I'll answer. It annoys me because nobody can be as perfect and flawless as the victims are portrayed as being . Especially Rachel .It is not possible .No human is. I don't like how people portray the victims as being oh so good, and the E &D as being oh so bad when they were all a group of teenagers .It matters to me because I find it to be consistently irritating. Flame me, whatever.That is my answer.

Don't you think that E+D are flamed more often because they killed 13 people?  Isn't it more reasonable to hate on someone who killed that many people than it is to hate on someone who happened to be in the room at the time?

Anyway, almost anyone young who dies tragically is treated with a ton of respect.  The victims of Columbine aren't special in that regard.  

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Flame me, whatever

Getting a little tired of being preemptively scolded...

Most people hold Rachel in that kind of regard because that is the image that has been put out there about her from Day 1.To some extent, all the victims as regarded this way but Rachel the most .Cassie was for a long time but her star faded some when her martyrdom was debunked although its still believed ,just not on the same level.A lot of people who were too young or not interested when this happened read "She said yes" or hear the Flyleaf song and don't look any further .Cassie has a much wilder ,darker post so even she never ascended to the same heights of sainthood as Rachel has.I've read all the Rachel books, I've seen a talk her Dad gave, read many interviews over the years and her family and others do basically make her out to be a saint despite them saying that is not their intention or what they want to do.There is a two line mention in Rachel's Tears about her flaws saying she could be stubborn no matter if she was right or wrong about something and she could be melodramatic and charm her way into getting what she wanted but its not elaborated on and no examples are given.It gets lost in a whole book full of glowing praise .It's all the same with her.It's hard to remember that she was a modern kid instead of some 15th century martyr . I feel a lot of the real Rachel is hidden behind this image of perfection.If you don't see all this, it's a difference in worldviews and we won't ever see it the same way .

sergeant hartman wrote:

StinkyOldGrapes wrote:

sergeant hartman wrote:

Anyway, almost anyone young who dies tragically is treated with a ton of respect.  The victims of Columbine aren't special in that regard.

No personal offence intended (and I honestly mean that), but sometimes I wonder if you're even living on the same planet as I am.

Name one other school shooting where the victims were ascended to the level of martyrs?

I see only two Columbine kids who were called martyrs, Rachel Scott and Cassie Bernall.  They were called martyrs by their parents because of their faith.  That doesn't mean that they were being called perfect.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

"You will be reading portions of her private journals and see­ing some of the drawings she made on their pages. Our pur­pose isn’t to hold Rachel up as some kind of perfect, sinless saint because she was as frail and fallen as all of us, as her brothers and sisters are well aware."

You've explained what bothers you, but you're not explaining why it bothers you.

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I feel a lot of the real Rachel is hidden behind this image of perfection

Maybe she really was a great person, and nobody goes out of there way to pick at her flaws because it's really none of our business?

I've already explained what bothers me and why .I don't know what else you want me to say or how I can explain it .Maybe but if her flaws are none of our business, then why isn't her perfection none of our business as well? Yet, nobody seems to mind talking about that or says it shouldn't be talked about or questioned .She has become a public figure, not only because of her role as a victim, but because her family has put her in the spotlight by writing books, starting Rachel's Challenge, giving interviews about her. I don't blame her family for keeping her memory alive but you can't be so public about it ,then have people claim that talking about anything other than the official party line is off limits.

sergeant hartman wrote:

You've explained what bothers you, but you're not explaining why it bothers you.

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I feel a lot of the real Rachel is hidden behind this image of perfection

Maybe she really was a great person, and nobody goes out of there way to pick at her flaws because it's really none of our business?

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Maybe but if her flaws are none of our business, then why isn't her perfection none of our business as well?]

What do you expect their family and friends to do?  Start listing their flaws for everyone to see?  If one of my friends died in a massacre and some reporter or whoever said, "Okay, what shitty things did your friend do in life?" I would tell them that it's none of their business.  I wouldn't say the same thing if someone asked me about his positive qualities.

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I feel a lot of the real Rachel is hidden behind this image of perfection

Who is the real Rachel Scott?  What would change if everyone admitted that she wasn't perfect?  I can understand wanting the truth to be known if she had secretly murdered or raped someone, but everyone realizing that she wasn't perfect wouldn't change much.

I think the image of perfection surrounding her and the other victims is unrealistic and inaccurate .You don't .End of story.

DarkofNight wrote:

I think the image of perfection surrounding her and the other victims is unrealistic and inaccurate .You don't .End of story.

I feel like there's something you're not telling me. Your reason for hating this feels incomplete, like there's a thought that's missing.

The public generally prefers the victims over E+D because the victims didn't want to destroy their entire school.  If E+D had been in the shoes of the victims, then they would have been treated similarly to one of the lesser talked about victims like Steve and Kelly.