Patti Neilson

In the link I added to this post is the longest version of the library 911 call, to my know leg at least, that's been released to the public. I came across it again today and listened to it for the millionth time. I just couldn't imagine being her on this day. Many have criticized her on how she handled things and whatnot but image hiding under a desk not knowing if you're going to die or have all these innocent student die around you? She heard every kid die in there. I think she handled everything as best as she could. Also, I believe E&D knew she was on the phone under the desk. However they didn't say anything to her or kill her....thoughts?

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I don't think she handled that situation well at all. I can understand being scared and confused, but there was an emergency exit in the library. The shooters were roaming the library hallway for a good 3 minutes before entering the room. If it was me I would lead the kids out the emergency exit, avoiding the hallway. I'm not sure if the shooters saw her, if they did I don't think they gave a damn.

Thanks for the link.

I think Patti did as good of a job as she could considering the circumstances. She had already been shot at and she thought Brian Anderson had been shot. She was in a panic. She told the students to hide.

She did not know they would come into the library. I mean it stands to reason they might but I don't think that crossed her mind at the time.

I know people blame her for the library deaths in a way but hindsight is 20/20 and she was trying what she could to protect the kids

I feel so bad for her when she stated she was too scared to close the door. It shows just how much of a panic she was in.

I agree with [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I have no idea why she wouldn't yell for all the kids to run out the back door once she knew they were inside the building. But hindsight is always perfect and unless you're in that situation, you have no idea what it would be like or how you would react.

PotatoSallad wrote:

I don't think she handled that situation well at all. I can understand being scared and confused, but there was an emergency exit in the library. The shooters were roaming the library hallway for a good 3 minutes before entering the room. If it was me I would lead the kids out the emergency exit, avoiding the hallway. I'm not sure if the shooters saw her, if they did I don't think they gave a damn.

Thanks for the link.

Not trying to be a dick or anything but I've been in a "fight or flight" situation and all I had to do was dial a number. My adrenaline spiked so hard I had to try 4 times because I simply couldn't hit the buttons. And I still didn't manage to finish the number before I ran. When you got two guys with 4 guns and you have absolutely no idea what could happen in the next second, you don't react calmly. Some can, some don't. It's crazy to assume that she "could've done this and that". When it's live or die, you're like an animal.

Maybe deep down she thought the shooters were just after teachers? She was probably hoping they weren't going to shoot defenseless kids hiding under a table.

Don't forget Patti did not know who the shooters were. For all she knew they could have been anyone (ex: an ex teacher taking revenge on co workers, an angry parent looking for a teacher etc)

Unfortunately, if she had advised kids to run out the emergency door maybe those 10 kids were alive today. I think she does know she could have handled this differently and she has to live with that thought, which must be very hard. I try to think why she didn't do that and other than being in an absolute panic I think that maybe she thought there were more shooters outside and didn't want to risk. She called 911 right away, as she should, and the operator also didn't say anything about evacuating. In fact, she was told to keep everyone quiet and on the floor.

Vii wrote:

Unfortunately, if she had advised kids to run out the emergency door maybe those 10 kids were alive today. I think she does know she could have handled this differently and she has to live with that thought, which must be very hard. I try to think why she didn't do that and other than being in an absolute panic I think that maybe she thought there were more shooters outside and didn't want to risk. She called 911 right away, as she should, and the operator also didn't say anything about evacuating. In fact, she was told to keep everyone quiet and on the floor.

Agreed. I think the 911 operator has more to feel guilty about than Patti.

Yes, I agree as well. The 911 operator didn't do the best job in her profession. She pretty much wasn't paying attention to Patti the first 30 seconds or so...like she's talking to someone else that's sitting next to her and not even listening to what Patti is telling her. Just replies with "uh huh" "help is on the way..." I don't know I wasn't impressed.

i absolutely can't deny patti's instructions has left a number of students like open bait just sitting there in plain sight of eric and dylan. I always thought to myself how the hell sitting still on the floor under a table is gonna save you from a shooter. BUT, okay, i will hand it to the fact that during a moment of panic and crisis, you do and act the best that you could at that point of time, and also, patti and everyone didn't know how many shooters there were, where they might come from, etc. but in technicality though, did some of the victims die based on her instructions? if you think about it, yes. one or two may have wanted to get the hell out of there but they prob felt right listening to a teacher and stay with their friends.

Maybe her logic was that if the kids hid under the table the library would look empty and the shooters wouldn't bother coming in there for one person. She had the best intentions though, so I can't hold her accountable for the kids dying. In a situation like that it's easy to criticize but to actually live through it, is a whole nother story.

One thing I thought of...Patti was a part time teacher correct?

Maybe she didn't know there was a back exit to the library? She knew the killers were coming down the hall from the west exit-because that is where she came from so she probably knew NOT to lead the kids into the hall, but if she didn't know there was a back exit maybe she thought they were trapped anyway?

IDK just a thought

Really good point Liz. She was an art teacher so she probably never really ventured into the library much at all, enough to know where emergency exits are. That's very possible.

PotatoSallad wrote:

I don't think she handled that situation well at all. I can understand being scared and confused, but there was an emergency exit in the library. The shooters were roaming the library hallway for a good 3 minutes before entering the room. If it was me I would lead the kids out the emergency exit, avoiding the hallway. I'm not sure if the shooters saw her, if they did I don't think they gave a damn.

Thanks for the link.

I believe one of the members from this site that was in the library on 4/20 addressed this topic & stated the exit location & known/unknowns cancelled out it being an option.

They were virtually boxed in given the shooters had complete control.

Keep in mid that school shootings weren't the norm back then. Safety routines weren't beaten into teachers heads at that time. Also keep in mind that by that point E and D had been both outside and inside. For all Patty knew sending the kids outside would have meant putting them in the crossfire.

Did she handle the situation well? Of course not. Her actions indirectly lead to the deaths of children. Do I feel like she should be blamed though? Not at all. She was a highschool art teacher, not a soldier in the military. It wasnt a situation she was used to being in, nor should she have ever been put in that position to begin with.

According to Brooks Browns father the door was propped open. I don't know where he got this information but this is what he claims. I agree she made a poor decision but I feel like it's hard to say what you would do in a situation you have never experienced. You lose train of thought and don't think as logically as you might think you will. You panic at first hide then maybe later realize that there is this exit. If anyone rushed out by the time anyone thought logically enough to escape they would have been gunned down instantly. So the students were forced to do the only thing they could do. Patti and this operator might feel some regret but Patti probably shouldn't. She was a part time teacher that probably didn't get training in this situation and was shot at. Complete 100% calm logically thinking was out the window. As for the operator. Yes she probably should of asked if there were was an emergency exit but, this is an easy mistake as she is not there and did ask if they could leave through the other doors assuming there wasn't another way out.

I'm glad that someone brought this up. I've always been a little quick to blame Patti for what happened in the library, and it's really not fair to her. She was a victim, just like the others. She did the best she could with the time and circumstances she had to work with.

Sure, we can look back and say that she could have ushered kids out the emergency exit, told them to run, etc. But, we get the benefit of hindsight, without literally being shot at during the decision making process. She was already injured by the time she called 911, and she was with another student who was also injured in the same confrontation.

tommydee89 brings up an interesting point. Brooks' dad had access to a ton of unreleased data, ballistics stuff etc. AFAIK, he still has that in his possession. Would it be possible to reach out to him and see if he would be willing to put some of it online? I know Brooks has moved on, but I remember his parents being the few people to really carry the torch for Columbine transparency.

radaddio wrote:

I'm glad that someone brought this up. I've always been a little quick to blame Patti for what happened in the library, and it's really not fair to her. She was a victim, just like the others. She did the best she could with the time and circumstances she had to work with.

Sure, we can look back and say that she could have ushered kids out the emergency exit, told them to run, etc. But, we get the benefit of hindsight, without literally being shot at during the decision making process. She was already injured by the time she called 911, and she was with another student who was also injured in the same confrontation.

tommydee89 brings up an interesting point. Brooks' dad had access to a ton of unreleased data, ballistics stuff etc. AFAIK, he still has that in his possession. Would it be possible to reach out to him and see if he would be willing to put some of it online? I know Brooks has moved on, but I remember his parents being the few people to really carry the torch for Columbine transparency.

From what I hear Randy Brown is still quite vocal about Columbine. He has answered questions for people before. I am not sure about releasing anything else of what he has though. I know he is quite vocal on Amazon about his opinions lol

Nirvana92 wrote:

Also keep in mind that by that point E and D had been both outside and inside. For all Patty knew sending the kids outside would have meant putting them in the crossfire.

Great point, I hadn't thought about that, and I think what you write here is very important to our consideration of this topic about Patti.

The one thing I found interesting about Patti's call to 911 was her effort of trying to compose herself calmly on the phone. This is immediately after seeing Eric, being shot at and running for your life into the library to try to get help. She also thought Brian was shot as well and was freaked right out, however you can tell how much she's trying to keep calm, probably for the kids. She did yell a few times to get under the tables but I think this was because there was so much noise, alarms, bombs, sirens outside, whatever....so she had to yell and made sure they understood the severity of it. I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this topic. I've always found the particular 911 call the most interesting mostly because you can hear E & D in the background amongst the chaos.

As many of you have mentioned, I feel the 911 operator is more at fault. The fact that you can hear Eric and Dylan in the background and the operator still doesn't give any real help really bothers me.

Speaking of emergency exits, I've always wondered why the 911 operator never asked if there was an emergency in the library that Patti could locate. Seems like it would be a pretty standard question in most emergencies.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] As many of you have mentioned, I feel the 911 operator is more at fault. The fact that you can hear Eric and Dylan in the background and the operator still doesn't give any real help really bothers me.

I think maybe she has to stay as silent as patti was to ensure patti doesn't draw attention to herself. also, if she speaks in a quiet library at that point of time she may have thought the boys would be able to hear someone speaking

Speaking of emergency exits, I've always wondered why the 911 operator never asked if there was an emergency in the library that Patti could locate. Seems like it would be a pretty standard question in most emergencies.

that part i agree.

Hey guys, first time posting anything on here although I have been stalking the forum for atleast two years now. I never really thought I had anything meaningful to add so I just kept quiet haha. Anyway I'm just curious why is it that Brooks' father was given access to unreleased data, ballistics etc. It doesn't make sense to me that he of all people was given access. I mean he wasn't a victims parent. I know Brooks' brother was in the school at the time of the shooting but from what I can remember (please correct me if I'm wrong) he wasn't shot at or injured. Obviously Brooks was a close friend to E&D at one stage but it still doesn't make sense to me. Its not like these documents were released to everyone who was in the school that day, close friends of E&D or again from what I remember even the injured survivors... so whay was so special about him? Anyway sorry for the novel.

Joeyy wrote:

Hey guys, first time posting anything on here although I have been stalking the forum for atleast two years now. I never really thought I had anything meaningful to add so I just kept quiet haha. Anyway I'm just curious why is it that Brooks' father was given access to unreleased data, ballistics etc. It doesn't make sense to me that he of all people was given access. I mean he wasn't a victims parent. I know Brooks' brother was in the school at the time of the shooting but from what I can remember (please correct me if I'm wrong) he wasn't shot at or injured. Obviously Brooks was a close friend to E&D at one stage but it still doesn't make sense to me. Its not like these documents were released to everyone who was in the school that day, close friends of E&D or again from what I remember even the injured survivors... so whay was so special about him? Anyway sorry for the novel.

There are probably a ton of others here way more knowledgeable than me but I don't think Randy has anything truly groundbreaking. He has all the information from when they made the police reports concerning Eric's websites and Brooks and he has seen the basement tapes. But I don't think he has too much information that is truly hidden. If he does I doubt he would release that.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] based on assumption, i think he just asked and hounded jeffco for info. also he probably pulled the card where his wife made countless complaints to the police about eric's threats and behaviour and now that Columbine has happened, he might've made a deal with the police in a sense where it's like they "owed" him information or tried to give him what they could.

also, welcome! Make yourself at home

I think the Browns played a significant role in this tragedy. They put the pieces to the puzzle together way before April 20th 1999. It's just many people failed to act or didn't take what they said seriously.

As far as Patti goes, you really can't blame her for anything. It's all hindsight. That's all it is. It's like playing Monday morning QB. Why did he make that pass? Why did he throw it?  Well, duh. It's easy to bitch about that shit sitting from your couch in the comfort of your own home but actually taking part in the game is a totally different story.

Moments before she just saw some kids outside shooting, odds are she probably thought her students would be safer just hiding and staying put instead of going out the emergency exits which eventually lead outside where she just saw Dylan/Eric shooting. Common sense.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] yeah I didn't think he would have had much more than that.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I can see the Browns beimg the kind of people to act like that and use it to their advantage to get there hands on more info. I would say that I don't think he has much more information than what Lizpuff said above but we all know how good jeffco is at giving out information or organising private viewings so I guess you never know.

@Sane One I completely agree with you, they did play significant roles in this tragedy however, I was just confused as to why he would be entitled to more information than the victims families.

I always wonder if Randy and Judy can even carry on a real conversation that does not revolve around Columbine. I mean they turned Brooks' room into an evidence room....Randy seems to be online all the time on things like Amazon putting his "comments" into Columbine book reviews and other nonsense....I just think they are all too wrapped up in what happened.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] me too. They're obsessed. It's so grim.

Remember that when Patti had last seen Eric, he was standing right by where the emergency exit would lead the students. And he was shooting at her at the time.

If you look at the map of the school it becomes clear why she acted as she did.

Lizpuff wrote:

I always wonder if Randy and Judy can even carry on a real conversation that does not revolve around Columbine.  I mean they turned Brooks' room into an evidence room....Randy seems to be online all the time on things like Amazon putting his "comments" into Columbine book reviews and other nonsense....I just think they are all too wrapped up in what happened.

Wow, really? And Brooks wasn't killed...imagine if he had been. They really need to forgive, give it a rest, and move on, just as many of the victims' parents have.

Maybe they (Randy especially) just like the attention.

ThoughtBox wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I always wonder if Randy and Judy can even carry on a real conversation that does not revolve around Columbine.  I mean they turned Brooks' room into an evidence room....Randy seems to be online all the time on things like Amazon putting his "comments" into Columbine book reviews and other nonsense....I just think they are all too wrapped up in what happened.

Wow, really? And Brooks wasn't killed...imagine if he had been.  They really need to forgive, give it a rest, and move on, just as many of the victims' parents have.

Maybe they (Randy especially) just like the attention.

Yep. In a Columbine Documentary, Randy leads the camera to a room stacked with tons of folders of evidence and photos and boxes of stuff and that used to be Brooks' room.

I saw Randy on Cullen's book reviews on amazon and clicked on his amazon screen name. The results were just pages and pages of him stating the same facts and arguing with people about Columbine. And it spanned years. Poor guy needs a break.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] maybe they strongly felt they could have been heroes, because of the prior complaints that Judy made. at that point of time she looked like an uppity uptight mother but Eric and Dylan ended being killers, both who had been friends with Brooks. Of course, years have passed and they should move on however I'm just throwing in a reason as to why they may have been hung up on the case. There was one documentary though where they interviewed Randy and whoaaa he had like, a shelf or, closet? of files and files and papers/reports on the case and that really shocked me. He had them organized and everything.

edit: lol yup LizPuff brought up the same footage I saw

liquorvamp wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] maybe they strongly felt they could have been heroes, because of the prior complaints that Judy made. at that point of time she looked like an uppity uptight mother but Eric and Dylan ended being killers, both who had been friends with Brooks. Of course, years have passed and they should move on however I'm just throwing in a reason as to why they may have been hung up on the case. There was one documentary though where they interviewed Randy and whoaaa he had like, a shelf or, closet? of files and files and papers/reports on the case and that really shocked me. He had them organized and everything.

edit: lol yup LizPuff brought up the same footage I saw

LOL at that documentary though... Not very factual but interesting. I lol at the fact that they called Brooks a "her" several times

Im amused by the direction this thread is going regarding the Browns and their obsession. Seems to me that we are ALL a little (or alot) obessessed with Columbine. We pour over information and hunger for more. We discuss and debate every possible scenario. Searching for answers that we will never have. The majority on this board have no connection to the events or people involved in the tragedy. Yet here WE are. The browns experienced the event first hand. I can see how and why they would be obsessed to such an extreme. I dont know i just found it funny that people on this board (especially) would tell the browns to move on and let it go etc... Just sayin.

rockiemontana wrote:

Im amused by the direction this thread is going regarding the Browns and their obsession.  Seems to me that we are ALL a little (or alot) obessessed with Columbine. We pour over information and hunger for more. We discuss and debate every possible scenario. Searching for answers that we will never have.  The majority on this board have no connection to the events or people involved in the tragedy. Yet here WE are.  The browns experienced the event first hand. I can see how and why they would be obsessed to such an extreme.  I dont know i just found it funny that people on this board (especially) would tell the browns to move on and let it go etc... Just sayin.

Probably a true statement right there lol!

rockiemontana wrote:

Im amused by the direction this thread is going regarding the Browns and their obsession.  Seems to me that we are ALL a little (or alot) obessessed with Columbine. We pour over information and hunger for more. We discuss and debate every possible scenario. Searching for answers that we will never have.  The majority on this board have no connection to the events or people involved in the tragedy. Yet here WE are.  The browns experienced the event first hand. I can see how and why they would be obsessed to such an extreme.  I dont know i just found it funny that people on this board (especially) would tell the browns to move on and let it go etc... Just sayin.

Yes, believe me, the irony was not lost on me when I wrote what I did.

rockiemontana wrote:

Im amused by the direction this thread is going regarding the Browns and their obsession.  Seems to me that we are ALL a little (or alot) obessessed with Columbine. We pour over information and hunger for more. We discuss and debate every possible scenario. Searching for answers that we will never have.  The majority on this board have no connection to the events or people involved in the tragedy. Yet here WE are.  The browns experienced the event first hand. I can see how and why they would be obsessed to such an extreme.  I dont know i just found it funny that people on this board (especially) would tell the browns to move on and let it go etc... Just sayin.

I'm pretty thankful that the Browns took such an interest in the case!  I'm glad they came forward with the truth about how they tried to warn the police about Eric. It paints a much clearer picture of Jeffco at the time.

I think for a long time the Browns did take things to an extreme degree.If you read a news story about Columbine either Randy or Judy or both were quoted.They showed up in every documentary.
They were often interviewed on news reports.This went on for about a decade.But the last big public showing from the Browns about this that I'm aware of was Randy speaking up against Cullen's book,so I think to a large extent they have moved on.They'll never forget it since this involved people they knew and they used to be friends with some of the victims families after they fell out with the Klebolds(not sure if they still are) but they seemed to have moved on greatly from how they used to be.

My personal opinion is that say Patti Nielson had somehow managed to evacuate the library. What's left? Many classrooms where children were huddled inside, basically sitting ducks. A locked door is nothing for a 12 gauge loaded with .00 buck.

So what we've termed as the library massacre would instead be Math Room 3 or something. There were just too many kids still inside, their only security a locked door or a table or something pushed against the door.

Tomb wrote:

My personal opinion is that say Patti Nielson had somehow managed to evacuate the library. What's left? Many classrooms where children were huddled inside, basically sitting ducks. A locked door is nothing for a 12 gauge loaded with .00 buck.

So what we've termed as the library massacre would instead be Math Room 3 or something. There were just too many kids still inside, their only security a locked door or a table or something pushed against the door.

Agreed. She was in between a rock and a hard place and didn't know where to go and what to do. If she had managed to lock the door to the library I Doubt it would have made a difference.

Lizpuff wrote:

Tomb wrote:

My personal opinion is that say Patti Nielson had somehow managed to evacuate the library. What's left? Many classrooms where children were huddled inside, basically sitting ducks. A locked door is nothing for a 12 gauge loaded with .00 buck.

So what we've termed as the library massacre would instead be Math Room 3 or something. There were just too many kids still inside, their only security a locked door or a table or something pushed against the door.

Agreed.  She was in between a rock and a hard place and didn't know where to go and what to do.  If she had managed to lock the door to the library I Doubt it would have made a difference.

I do too, considering there was glass on the doors which could have easily been broken and the door unlocked or they could have shot the lock with the shotgun. If they had wanted in, anywhere in the school, I believe they would have got in.

This was unprecedented in American schools. There were no drills to practice, no manual to read, no video to watch to prepare for such an attack. I feel sorry for her, I'm sure she has feelings of guilt, what-ifs and I-should-haves.

Again, I think if the library had been evacuated, we would be talking about a different classroom. They came to kill and I think would have carried out massacring children regardless of what room they were in.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: THANK YOU. I was gonna comment that very thing. I can't believe this is still being debated.

I believe that she should of had the students rush out the emergency exit instead of hiding. They had a good 2-3 minutes to get out from the time she ran in and the shooters entered the library. They ended up using the exit later on anyway. These kids could of been saved. The real shitty thing though is the cops just stood outside doing nothing. They easily could of came into the school library and ended the situation. There were many of them and thats their job! its so pathetic. Patti even told the 911 operator that the gunman were in the library shooting people. Also, the library exit door was propped open and the cops could hear the students getting murdered. thats really sad! i think its such a shame they did nothing. the ones that did survive had to save themselves!

KatieJean1988 wrote:

I believe that she should of had the students rush out the emergency exit instead of hiding. They had a good 2-3 minutes to get out from the time she ran in and the shooters entered the library. They ended up using the exit later on anyway. These kids could of been saved. The real shitty thing though is the cops just stood outside doing nothing. They easily could of came into the school library and ended the situation. There were many of them and thats their job! its so pathetic. Patti even told the 911 operator that the gunman were in the library shooting people. Also, the library exit door was propped open and the cops could hear the students getting murdered. thats really sad! i think its such a shame they did nothing. the ones that did survive had to save themselves!

Go back and read my post on the first page.

When she saw Eric, he was standing by the emergency exit. For all she knew, he was still there.

When you see a shooter, you don't lead people on an escape route toward the shooter.

I had no idea that Eric was by the emergency exit. I thought there was one in the back of the library down a little hallway that they later exited. I thought the shooters came in the library thru the main entrance. Sorry

KatieJean1988 wrote:

I had no idea that Eric was by the emergency exit. I thought there was one in the back of the library down a little hallway that they later exited. I thought the shooters came in the library thru the main entrance. Sorry

They did come into the school through the west entrance but the layout of the school is such that the emergency exit of the library opens up directly onto the walkway to the west entrance. Eric and Dylan started the shooting right outside the library emergency exit. Richard and Rachel were sitting somewhere between the west entrance doors and the library emergency exit door.

Here's a diagram for reference.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

KatieJean1988 wrote:

I had no idea that Eric was by the emergency exit. I thought there was one in the back of the library down a little hallway that they later exited. I thought the shooters came in the library thru the main entrance. Sorry

No problem. I didn't mean to be harsh. Here are some diagrams that will help you visualize what Patti saw. The emergency exit at the back of the library is in blue. The black arrow is Eric's shooting. The red arrow is her running and crawling away.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

Okay thank you! that really helped a lot. I totally get it now lol.

Was Patrick Ireland in the library still when Eric and Dylan committed suicide ???