Domestically Abusive?

i was curious about everyones opinions on this...since i've been sort of thinking about this in my head...do you guys think from the way Dylan treated some women as well as both Eric and Dylan's tempers they would be domestically abusive? if they got into actual relationships with girls? the way Eric pursued some girls also pokes up red flags for me. like email that girl over and over again after she didn't talk to him and she even had to change her SN and email address etc? i don't have any definite opinions on this but was just wondering what everyones opinions would be on this topic?

I believe there were a couple of discussions on this on this forum a couple of threads back, they were quite thorough, but from what I can remember and based on my own opinions, yes, they might be domestically abusive. Or at the least extremely mentally/verbally abusive. I feel that Dylan might be able to hold it back but Eric?.....mmm, he might slip and start getting physical. Eric definitely can't take rejection whereas Dyl's the type to give in to it and walk out. However, that doesn't mean Dyl isn't manipulative either.

not so sure about Eric,but Dylan prob would get in serious relationship troubles.
just imagine he finding out that his so called true love was cheating on him.

we can only speculate,but based on what we have,Eric just seemed desperate to score any girl,there's the 'stalking'(that didnt even consist on weird behavior),while Dylan put his happiness on a role model type of girl of his dreams,with high standards,the kind of stuff that rarely ends well.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] oh wow cool! i didn't know. i thought i checked pretty well before i posted but i guess not? link to this thread?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] might have been these ones. it's a read-through so if you have time on you you may skim through 'em:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] / [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] / [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] / [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'm pretty sure there were some discussions about how they might be during sex aswell which is......  hahahahhhaa.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ohhh yes. these are all interesting threads! and thanks for linking them. but i guess i opened this one up to just talk about maybe the potential of them possibly becoming or being domestically abusive when in a serious relationship in accordance to their personalities rather than general relationship stuff and girls they've dated or were interested in like those seem to be about. so, i think this thread is still ok to keep open and comment in? i'd still like people's opinions.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] good points about Dylan. men having weird ass madonna/whore complexes or putting women on pedestals can be deeply unhealthy and give men the idea that women aren't people and human beings with flaws etc just like everyone else. i actually had an ex boyfriend who reminds me a lot of Dylan who was emotionally abusive...but i am still open to other people's opinions/discussion on this matter. plus, who knows if he would have grown out of this? i do know that men who don't...its not very healthy.

As they were, yes i think they both may have had unhealthy relationships. Eric less so than dylan. The girls who were close to eric said he was very sweet. With the right kind of girl he may have been ok. Dylan? Im not so sure. His ideals were so unrealistic. However had they given themselves time to mature into men and gotten help with the mental issues, i think they would be capable of healthy relationships. It seems that their parents were good role models. Abusive behavior is (in part) learned behavior.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] eric's sweetness may have been put-on though, at least some of it perhaps in the beginning. Because he was very insecure and he couldn't accept anything negative from a girl, you might see a slip through his sweetness and see the anger in his eyes. As I said, he might be the first of the two to hit a girl. Or, I picture him punching a wall during a fight.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] yeah...not to mention the way he treated Dylan whenever Dylan did something wrong as Sue has stated in her book? that kind of thing can easily slide into emotional abuse, tbh. and you can't really use him being in less long term relationships like the girls you mentioned [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] because yeah he could have been putting on an act and/or that isn't enough time to see his true colors. which is why i meant long term/serious relationships. and nah i don't think abuse is learned behavior. there are plenty of people i know with perfectly nice parents who are abusive. not to mention: with the way they turned out with nice parents on their side? i mean my parents are very abusive but i've never been abusive towards anyone or wanted to hurt anyone. if anything, i became a welcome mat where i'd rather get hurt then hurt anyone.

I think if either of them had found the PERFECT girl they might have been ok. But that is the problem. There is no perfect girl. Eric was rejected by so many different girls for the same reasons....he was odd, weird, his conversations revolved around topics that were scary or plain complaining etc. He would have to find a girl that could not only look past those topics but also be able to get him to talk about other more positive topics it could have worked out. His IM logs show he could find other topics I just don't know that girls his age were capable. Look at him when he is talking to Brandy about that roach in the girl's mouth or whatever...he is just like rolling his eyes at that conversation.

Dylan....Like others said, Dylan had lofty thoughts about the girl he wanted. And when he thought he liked someone he would find out she wasn't what he thought and he would be crushed. I am not sure he would be abusive per say but I think if a relationship did not end well especially if the girl ended it he would be thrown into a deep depression. The memory Sue shared of her pushing him against a fridge and him giving her that warning....I know she said it wasn't scary but if that were me I would have been scared. Dylan def had a scary streak in him

lilith wrote:

i was curious about everyones opinions on this...since i've been sort of thinking about this in my head...do you guys think from the way Dylan treated some women as well as both Eric and Dylan's tempers they would be domestically abusive? if they got into actual relationships with girls? the way Eric pursued some girls also pokes up red flags for me. like email that girl over and over again after she didn't talk to him and she even had to change her SN and email address etc? i don't have any definite opinions on this but was just wondering what everyones opinions would be on this topic?

I don't get the impression that either of them would have been physically abusive towards women, but it's quite likely they would have been verbally abusive had they grown into adults, IMHO.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] interesting. what do you think would have made them verbally abusive had they grown into adults? and why do you think they wouldn't ever be physically abusive towards a woman?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] so, do you think that they wouldn't have been abusive at all? why not?

lilith wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] interesting. what do you think would have made them verbally abusive had they grown into adults? and why do you think they wouldn't ever be physically abusive towards a woman?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] so, do you think that they wouldn't have been abusive at all? why not?

Verbally abusive maybe. And that is IF either could get a stable relationship

I don't think they would have found the right girls in high school. Both of them would have required someone with a mature mindset and a lot of patience. Maybe if They had started dating younger, like in their freshman or sophomore years, before they became so hateful, they would have been more likely to have more stable relationships.

I'm not sure if I see them as being physically abusive (even though Dylan supposedly hit a female coworker and was tackling girls during flag football). I personally think if they had gotten laid they would have mellowed out. They probably would have even benefited from a female friend who was "more than a friend". I feel like a lot of their anger stemmed from sexual frustration. People that knew them stated up until high school both of them seemed like normal kids. No one really mentions any abnormal angry behavior prior to then. But then those hormones kicked in and they wanna get laid like every other teenage boy, only to be rejected over and over by the opposite sex. Witnessing the kinda girls they wanted flocking to not only "better looking" guys, but guys that were also belittling and picking on them. I mean that's gotta be a pretty huge blow to your ego when you have teenage mentality.

Although with their angry mindsets leading up to the shooting, I could definitely see them both as being somewhat jealous and possessive partners. And I can definitely see Eric putting his fist through some more walls, even windows and doors or whatever he's close to during arguments haha. I don't really classify one person breaking something as abuse though, just an immature temper tantrum which you can work on. I know several people that punch inanimate objects when they're angry and they were never abusive to people or animals.

I don't think either would have been physically abusive but I can see them being insecure and a bit controlling.I don't think they would have gone as far as not wanting their girls to have any friends or never leave the house without them but they would have probably been fearful and on the lookout for their interactions with other guys.

Even the most calm and collected guys can turn out to be abusive so I don't think it's too far fetched to think that Eric and Dylan would have been abusive. 

They both had a sense of entitlement.... Entitlement to girls and social status. This combined with how angry they were makes me think they would have become violent with females under certain circumstances.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] cool views. i personally don't think punching walls or animate objects is abusive either. some women maybe very put off by that and be very scared and want to exit the relationship for that kind of behavior but i am definitely not one of those women. i find shit like that exciting but i understand if others don't like that kind of stuff and get scared and want to leave dudes that do that.

i always like your views on shit [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ! so do you think they'd like...just be very intense partners but not abusive in any form, or?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] valid opinion. i can see how someone can think that.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] why just verbally abusive for you? and also, i like how you talked about how Eric didn't seem to like talking about inane things. i always thought that too but i am never sure...because some people think he was just "acting" in the IM logs? i'd personally like to think he wasn't. it seemed like he had a real repertoire with the girl he was talking to.

Thank you.That's basically what I believe yes.
Some people feel that any form of someone being controlling is abuse.
I think there is a thin line and it can quickly turn into that but like a guy being jealous of your male friends or looking when a guy talks to you to see if he's flirting with you isn't.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] your welcome! and cool. i personally don't think possessiveness and jealousy are bad or abusive things either. some people think that, yeah totally but i don't. mostly because i have BPD so its actually comforting for me to have the assurance that someone wants me around that much as some symptoms of BPD are to protect yourself from real or imagined abandonment. which is a problem i definitely have. so to me jealousy and possessiveness are actually quite romantic. i also wanted to ask you: you don't think their tempers would perhaps factor into them being abusive in serious relationships? and if so why not?

I had to think about this lol.
I know you stated you don't see someone punching a wall as abusive but I see the opposite having come from a situation like that.

Anyway...I think going along with that Dylan may have been quite a passive partner for the most part but also being a bit possessive. Perhaps letting a girl walk all over him just so that he could keep her. But that would never work out. And I could see him perhaps pushing her against a fridge with a verbal warning and not all women could take that.

As far as Eric goes...I don't know I go back and forth. It is hard because I have nothing really to base my thoughts on. In some ways I can see him just being possessive and controlling, but then I see other people post things saying he was shallow and mean and then I think well maybe he would have just been an asshole.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] thats a-ok. i know relationships and situations like that can be scary for some people and definitely not ok for them and thats totally fine.

hmmm...but i feel like maybe this is just going along with Dylan's journal persona? like, i dunno...for me it always worried me that he actually a hit a girl at this job. like can you say yikes?

and see! this is why i always want to know more about Eric! because i am like this too! lol. i am like...i feel like there is something obviously more there. like that maybe he had a lot more sensitivity etc to give but then people keep insisting that he fakes shit and i am like well...maybe. but i dunno. i'd like to believe he was as complex as Dylan, if anything. to me, every human being is complex and made of multitudes.

lilith wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] your welcome! and cool. i personally don't think possessiveness and jealousy are bad or abusive things either. some people think that, yeah totally but i don't. mostly because i have BPD so its actually comforting for me to have the assurance that someone wants me around that much as some symptoms of BPD are to protect yourself from real or imagined abandonment. which is a problem i definitely have. so to me jealousy and possessiveness are actually quite romantic. i also wanted to ask you: you don't think their tempers would perhaps factor into them being abusive in serious relationships? and if so why not?

A person has to be careful with such behaviors because they can cross a line and turn bad.

Yes, I do think their tempers would have been a problem when they started to come out in the relationship. but if they both found girls who were wonderful and they really cared about and wanted to stay with they would have taken whatever steps they needed to ,to get it under control.That's what you do if you really care about someone and some of your behaviors are going to cause you to lose them from your life.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ahhh ok i see, cool. so you think that they'd perhaps get counseling and change etc for a girl because they would love her and that would help them become better people? i like that idea. huh, cool.

I could see Eric being mentally/verbally abusive and Dylan physically abusive

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] i see cool. why the differences for you? why do you think Eric would be mentally/verbally abusive and Dylan be physically abusive?

I doubt Dylan would be abusive. He demonstrates in his journal how he feels a sense of loneliness because he doesn't have a girlfriend. I feel as if he wouldn't attempt to harass her or abuse her in any way, because he wouldn't want to lose her. Eric, on the other hand, could become violent if he was to deal with his girlfriend doing something he didn't like. He wouldn't be afraid to tell her what he thought or felt. That could lead to abuse. Eric seems more confident in himself despite his insecurities, and walks head up, not a frown on his face. But Dylan tends to keep his head down and has a bad posture. He definitely portrays himself as the more shy one, unlikely to ruin a relationship with a slipped hand or word. They both have the potential to become abusive with their mental illness and stored anger, but I think Eric would be the one to strike if he felt the need to.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ehhh its not ok to suggest someone would be abusive due to mental illness. thats very very ableist. i myself have BPD and a few other mental illnesses and i am actually constantly paranoid that i am abusive and ask my friends, family, and significant other repeatedly for assurance that i am not. and all of my serious relationships before the one i've been in now have been abusive and they had no mental illness.

to suggest that a mentally ill person would be abusive is to treat us like children who can't control ourselves and need to be kept away from society because we're mentally ill and can be abusive and hurt people. which is not the case. abuse depends on someone's personality, who they are. if you're abusive and you are mentally ill it has absolutely nothing to do with your mental illness. i am just very offended by that kind of talk because i myself am mentally ill and i am not abusive etc. and trying to imply that, that would lead to any abuse--being mentally ill--is infantilizing us and acting like we're animals. thats very insulting. you probably didn't mean to do that, but yeah.

and ehhh...i dunno about trying to woobiefy Dylan...i think they both could be rather mean. i mean like i said above: its always rubbed me the wrong way that Dylan hit a girl and called women "bitches". i mean...thats wildly misogynistic. and i think people tend to woobiefy Dylan waaay to much, which bothers me. and i had an ex boyfriend who was a lot like Dylan and he was incredibly emotionally abusive. he's play weird ass push pull games where he would tell me that he loved me, worshipped me, and was affectionate and things...but would also tell me he liked things on women that weren't even on me, which led me to question why he was attracted to me in the first place? i won't go into specifics but his little barbs like that were really hurtful and he never once thought he was doing anything wrong because he continuously thought he was the victim. so, yeah, i just think we should be a bit more balanced and objective about this.

Of course not all people with mental illness are or will become abusive. However people who are abusive are not exactly mentally healthy.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you and i are going to have to disagree on that one. i wouldn't call it being "mentally unhealthy" as it sounds way too close to mental illness for my taste. i would call it being an asshole. thats it.

I am not going to imply that everyone with any kind of mental illness at all is abusive or anything however there have been case studies to show that people with certain mental illnesses can be more prone to violence including domestic violence

Since we don't really know very much about Which illnesses if any Eric and Dylan had it can be hard to say but I think it is fair to say that their issues that they both seemed to exhibit may have caused them to be abusive later on in life.

I didn't mean that mental illness would cause someone to become abusive. I just mean that nobody in their right mind would hurt their partner. The type of mental illness you have would be unlikely to influence violence, however being homicidal like Eric and Dylan were could easily cause an attack. That's all I'm saying.

I cannot picture Dylan being the controlling/abusive type of boyfriend after studying in journals. And that love letter he wrote showed he definitely had a sweet side. Eric I think could have been.

Both could have been abusive. I don't see one being more "evil" than the other here.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] exactly. i don't like that people woobify Dylan so damn much. it just feeds into "depressed follower and psycho leader" image more. lol. like stop thinking Dylan would be such a nice ugh or boyfriend just because he drew hearts in his journal. i mean, he hit a girl once. just...no. stop.

Maybe they won't hit a girl they love at all. Maybe they were exclusively homicidal but they wouldn't dare be indelicate with a girl personally.
Lol, when I made that sentence it reminded me of Edmund Kemper when he said that he didn't hit a victim, he just killed her. He stabbed her but he never hit her and he felt proud about it.

But in the end we'll never know what type of boyfriends they would have become since both of them died virgins.

lilith wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] exactly. i don't like that people woobify Dylan so damn much. it just feeds into "depressed follower and psycho leader" image more. lol. like stop thinking Dylan would be such a nice ugh or boyfriend just because he drew hearts in his journal. i mean, he hit a girl once. just...no. stop.

Where did you hear that from?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] maybe [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] was referring to the account of Dylan hitting that co-worker Michelle sth...i'm not sure where on her he hit her but, apparently that happened. So, if he couldn't have self-control then, who knows if it were with a loved one and it was a big fight.

Page 010150 - Michelle Hartsough 10/27/79 had worked at Blackjack Pizza from Sep 1996 to Mar 1999. She described Dylan Klebold as a difficult person who was often rude. She said that he hit her once because she had counseled him on an infraction at work. Hartsough said that Dylan did not get along well with his father.

yeah there it is. thanks, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] ! hence my point. liquorvamp said it.

What was Eric searching for in terms of finding a girl/companion/love interest etc. Was he wanting to get laid, have a one night stand, or did he want to establish a real relationship with a girl?

Gee....well....this is only something he knows now wouldn't it.
But i've always stand by my opinion that all he wants is to have sex. I think, he would be satisfied enough with a FwB situation. Based on what he told to that Jen chick on their online conversation, he might've gotten the idea of a what "true" relationship is all about, however, his need to have sex might've clouded his vision of actually needing a girl:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I think he wanted a relationship but when NBK was closing in, knowing that he will die soon, getting laid became more important.
Its like knowing you will die in 1 month and you are trying to do all the things you have never done before and always wanted to.

I think that deep down Eric was very lonely and longed for a female companion along with the sex, but was too immature to understand what a long term successful relationship would entail.He was very young and never had a girlfriend for more than a few months and it seems even those never got serious.

If Eric and Dylan ever DID find girlfriends and got into serious relationships how much would that change the course of events leading up to NBK?

I personally don't see either one being physically abusive, and I don't really have a basis for coming to that conclusion. I could, however, see them being emotionally and/or mentally abusive. I agree they would be possessive and likely jealous. Again, there's no real basis for this opinion.

I've, unfortunately encountered "men" who have entered my family through marriage who are beyond emotionally/mentally abusive. Some of E & D's writings are reminiscent of these "men". But these vile creatures are waaaaay older and have perfected their manner of abuse. It's took them from years to decades to get to the abusive point they are at. Personally, I would like a few minutes in a dark alley with each of them.

However, they could have turned out to be perfectly normal and able to maintain romantic relationships in a healthy manner. This is all based on speculation.

It's just sad that we'll never know, not just about E & D, but the victims too. Who would they have become? So depressing.

lilith wrote:

i was curious about everyones opinions on this...since i've been sort of thinking about this in my head...do you guys think from the way Dylan treated some women as well as both Eric and Dylan's tempers they would be domestically abusive? if they got into actual relationships with girls? the way Eric pursued some girls also pokes up red flags for me. like email that girl over and over again after she didn't talk to him and she even had to change her SN and email address etc? i don't have any definite opinions on this but was just wondering what everyones opinions would be on this topic?

I think you are spot-on.