E & D's Bombs vs. Oklahoma City Bombing

Sorry I can't find the reference in the journals regarding their plans, but I know it's there somewhere. According to Wikipedia, "They wished their actions to rival the Oklahoma City bombing".

I have spent a significant amount of time researching both Columbine and the Oklahoma City Bombing and all I can say is WOW. Did they for even a nanosecond think their propane bombs had the capacity to wreak the havoc Timothy McVeigh did?

Granted, they are 2 different types of bombs, but McVeigh's was a 5,000 pound ANFO bomb and theirs was 2 20 pound propane bombs.

It seems to me the bombs were the least thought out part of the plan, albeit the most important.

Tomb wrote:

Sorry I can't find the reference in the journals regarding their plans, but I know it's there somewhere. According to Wikipedia, "They wished their actions to rival the Oklahoma City bombing".

I have spent a significant amount of time researching both Columbine and the Oklahoma City Bombing and all I can say is WOW. Did they for even a nanosecond think their propane bombs had the capacity to wreak the havoc Timothy McVeigh did?

Granted, they are 2 different types of bombs, but McVeigh's was a 5,000 pound ANFO bomb and theirs was 2 20 pound propane bombs.

It seems to me the bombs were the least thought out part of the plan, albeit the most important.

I think money was a major factor in E&D's bomb making plans. But also arrogance. They obviously thought it would work out just fine. They didn't think of any of the possibilities
It would take too long to heat up, what if someone noticed the fire/smoke before the explosion...the fire suppression system... Obv the work of immature teens who think they are 'godlike'. It is good they didn't make a OK city bomb though.

Oh absolutely. If they'd had the resources, skill and knowledge to copy McVeigh, the magnitude of horror they would have wreaked is almost incomprehensible.

Lizpuff wrote:

Tomb wrote:

Sorry I can't find the reference in the journals regarding their plans, but I know it's there somewhere. According to Wikipedia, "They wished their actions to rival the Oklahoma City bombing".

I have spent a significant amount of time researching both Columbine and the Oklahoma City Bombing and all I can say is WOW. Did they for even a nanosecond think their propane bombs had the capacity to wreak the havoc Timothy McVeigh did?

Granted, they are 2 different types of bombs, but McVeigh's was a 5,000 pound ANFO bomb and theirs was 2 20 pound propane bombs.

It seems to me the bombs were the least thought out part of the plan, albeit the most important.

I think money was a major factor in E&D's bomb making plans. But also arrogance.  They obviously thought it would work out just fine.  They didn't think of any of the possibilities
It would take too long to heat up, what if someone noticed the fire/smoke before the explosion...the fire suppression system... Obv the work of immature teens who think they are 'godlike'.  It is good they didn't make a OK city bomb though.

I think that they didn't think the possibilities through is one of the most glaring differences between them and McVeigh. As much as I despise McVeigh, I do have to admit he was realistic in his planning (aside from that whole idea of thinking he would kickstart a revolution rather than the actual effect appalling the country with his actions...an idea which he seemed to share with some shooters). I am glad they were unable to reproduce McVeigh's crime.

Do you think the boys, or Eric at least, aren't smart enough to know they aren't making bombs of Mcveigh's capacity? They can't be that blinded to it. Hence like [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said, their setback had to be money-wise. There's no way they could get hold of and have the time to make a grand set-up such as that. I gotta admit Eric's arrogance with thinking they could surpass all the major massacres was embarrassing knowing they don't have that sort of equipment. Somehow they DID get to that level, in terms of branding and popular culture, but the actual result of it was only sub-par. What was meant to be a major bomb attack ended up dud.

and btw, Mcveigh's result was massive but how quickly his case got swept under the rug and forgotten. Still proves popularity > context/results.

liquorvamp wrote:

Do you think the boys, or Eric at least, aren't smart enough to know they aren't making bombs of Mcveigh's capacity? They can't be that blinded to it. Hence like [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said, their setback had to be money-wise. There's no way they could get hold of and have the time to make a grand set-up such as that. I gotta admit Eric's arrogance with thinking they could surpass all the major massacres was embarrassing knowing they don't have that sort of equipment. Somehow they DID get to that level, in terms of branding and popular culture, but the actual result of it was only sub-par. What was meant to be a major bomb attack ended up dud.

and btw, Mcveigh's result was massive but how quickly his case got swept under the rug and forgotten. Still proves popularity > context/results.

I think it was a bit of both. I mean they tested the pipe bombs but never anything else. They were always trying to use fireworks for huge explosions....

Look at how disappointed they both were when they realized the bombs didn't explode. And how hard they tried to get them to explode. They would just not give up until the very end. I don't think they could believe that the bombs did not work. Eric kept saying "we are going to blow up the school anyhow" even after the bombs had failed. He really thought they were going to do it. And they failed.

However I do think they potentially could have caused more destruction with more money. And more research of course.

liquorvamp wrote:

Do you think the boys, or Eric at least, aren't smart enough to know they aren't making bombs of Mcveigh's capacity? They can't be that blinded to it. Hence like [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said, their setback had to be money-wise. There's no way they could get hold of and have the time to make a grand set-up such as that. I gotta admit Eric's arrogance with thinking they could surpass all the major massacres was embarrassing knowing they don't have that sort of equipment. Somehow they DID get to that level, in terms of branding and popular culture, but the actual result of it was only sub-par. What was meant to be a major bomb attack ended up dud.

and btw, Mcveigh's result was massive but how quickly his case got swept under the rug and forgotten. Still proves popularity > context/results.

What boggles my mind is if you believe that Eric wrote his journal for an audience, that he would include such a reference, unless he truly didn't understand that 2 20 pound propane bombs DO NOT EQUAL a 5,000 pound ANFO bomb. I think he would be embarrassed, were he alive, to have made such grandiose statements that ended up being an utter failure, speaking only of the bombs, of course.

I am truly fascinated by McVeigh, much to the chagrin of my husband lol. IIRC, I think he said it only costed $5,000 to build his bomb.

I wonder how much E & D spent on their total operation?

lilypadlane wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

Tomb wrote:

Sorry I can't find the reference in the journals regarding their plans, but I know it's there somewhere. According to Wikipedia, "They wished their actions to rival the Oklahoma City bombing".

I have spent a significant amount of time researching both Columbine and the Oklahoma City Bombing and all I can say is WOW. Did they for even a nanosecond think their propane bombs had the capacity to wreak the havoc Timothy McVeigh did?

Granted, they are 2 different types of bombs, but McVeigh's was a 5,000 pound ANFO bomb and theirs was 2 20 pound propane bombs.

It seems to me the bombs were the least thought out part of the plan, albeit the most important.

I think money was a major factor in E&D's bomb making plans. But also arrogance.  They obviously thought it would work out just fine.  They didn't think of any of the possibilities
It would take too long to heat up, what if someone noticed the fire/smoke before the explosion...the fire suppression system... Obv the work of immature teens who think they are 'godlike'.  It is good they didn't make a OK city bomb though.

I think that they didn't think the possibilities through is one of the most glaring differences between them and McVeigh. As much as I despise McVeigh, I do have to admit he was realistic in his planning (aside from that whole idea of thinking he would kickstart a revolution rather than the actual effect appalling the country with his actions...an idea which he seemed to share with some shooters). I am glad they were unable to reproduce McVeigh's crime.

I'm glad too. You bring up a good point about "kick starting a revolution", a theme that seems common amongst McVeigh himself and numerous school shooters. Another one that comes to mind is Anders Breivik, the Norway bomber and murderer of 69. In his rambling manifesto, he talks of starting a revolution.

Tomb wrote:

I'm glad too. You bring up a good point about "kick starting a revolution", a theme that seems common amongst McVeigh himself and numerous school shooters. Another one that comes to mind is Anders Breivik, the Norway bomber and murderer of 69. In his rambling manifesto, he talks of starting a revolution.

While I morbidly admire both Mcveigh and Breivik, I actually think that overall the case that started a lasting "revolution" somehow is still Columbine.

Correction: actually I don't admire Breivik. I can't stand him. He's horrid and he doesn't deserve a LUXURIOUS PRISON CELL.

liquorvamp wrote:

Tomb wrote:

I'm glad too. You bring up a good point about "kick starting a revolution", a theme that seems common amongst McVeigh himself and numerous school shooters. Another one that comes to mind is Anders Breivik, the Norway bomber and murderer of 69. In his rambling manifesto, he talks of starting a revolution.

While I morbidly admire both Mcveigh and Breivik, I actually think that overall the case that started a lasting "revolution" somehow is still Columbine.

Correction: actually I don't admire Breivik. I can't stand him. He's horrid and he doesn't deserve a LUXURIOUS PRISON CELL.

Breivik...whew, what a hot mess. I read his trial transcripts and also bought the book One of Us. He is scary to me. But, what's interesting, it took him 83 days to build his bomb, which was less than half the size of McVeigh's. Yet, McVeigh and Nichols supposedly built theirs in 2 days.

Anyways, it is chilling to hear Breivik recount his massacre, in particular the first shot. He claims his whole body resisted and he had a thousand voices telling him not to do it. After the first murder, it became easier.

I wonder if Eric or Dylan experienced that same feeling, their bodies and minds resisting what they were about to do.

Lol about his LUXURIOUS PRISON CELL. They ought to send his butt to San Quentin for awhile and I bet he'd stop his whining. If I ever go to prison, I definitely want to go in Norway.

Tomb wrote:

Breivik...whew, what a hot mess. I read his trial transcripts and also bought the book One of Us. He is scary to me. But, what's interesting, it took him 83 days to build his bomb, which was less than half the size of McVeigh's. Yet, McVeigh and Nichols supposedly built theirs in 2 days.

Anyways, it is chilling to hear Breivik recount his massacre, in particular the first shot. He claims his whole body resisted and he had a thousand voices telling him not to do it. After the first murder, it became easier.

I wonder if Eric or Dylan experienced that same feeling, their bodies and minds resisting what they were about to do.

Lol about his LUXURIOUS PRISON CELL. They ought to send his butt to San Quentin for awhile and I bet he'd stop his whining. If I ever go to prison, I definitely want to go in Norway.

Wow your post is the most informative Tomb! Thank you!
I never meant to learn the details of Mcveigh and Breivik's bomb making process, but that's interesting, Mcveigh and Nichols only took 2 days? How so? Had they just known where to find the materials and all they needed to do was put it together? My bad, I only know a gist of the case. Maybe Breivik took longer because he was focused on his manifesto and his planning and the grooming of his face or whatever (I think I learnt from docu of him that he was like, obsessed with looking good or whatever goddamn lunatic.)

Quote :

Anyways, it is chilling to hear Breivik recount his massacre, in particular the first shot. He claims his whole body resisted and he had a thousand voices telling him not to do it. After the first murder, it became easier.
I wonder if Eric or Dylan experienced that same feeling, their bodies and minds resisting what they were about to do.

It's definitely the same. No doubt, I've always thought this. I think Dylan may be the first to react as such, more vocally too. For Eric he knew there was no turning back from there.

And yeah with Breivik's whining! Just whining all the time! Geez he and Eric should have a whine-off come to think of it!

I'm definitely not a conspiracy theorist by any means, but I think McVeigh and Nichols had help. McVeigh took a polygraph and failed when asked if he had help besides Nichols. There's so much to that, I could go on for days, but I digress. McVeigh had rented a number of storage rooms around the area of the lake where the bomb was constructed and stored all the components in each locker. When it was time to make the bomb, he simply went and got the items and began assembling the bomb along with Nichols in the back of the Ryder truck. Nichols claims he wanted nothing to do with it anymore but McVeigh threatened his family, so he was forced to help. McVeigh also confirmed that Nichols helped under duress.

Breivik would post almost diary entries in his manifesto at the end of the day while he was making the bomb. To be honest, I laughed at him and his fear of insects and how he would scream if a spider got on him while he's handling volatile substances. And, omg, how he would complain about EVERYTHING ! Lol, his hands hurt, he was afraid he was poisoned from diesel exposure, his computer went out during a thunderstorm and on and on and on. He had plenty of ammonium nitrate, he could have possibly built the bomb the size of McVeigh's. But his hands hurt and he was afraid he'd damaged them permanently. Not to mention, he was on a cycle of steroids at the time, so I don't know if he was lazy or just self absorbed.

My poor grandmother who is 94 with 2 broken hips hasn't complained near as much as Breivik. I'm amazed he didn't blow himself up before he carried out the attack. At times he was very careless in his bomb construction. He said he always carried his Glock with him when mixing the bomb in case it exploded and he was maimed so he could commit suicide. Like I say, he scares me more so than McVeigh.

I've little to no knowledge of bombs but if Eric & Dylan's had worked in the cafeteria would it not have taken out the 500 they estimated? The kids were all in a confined space and was the aim not to take out the two supporting pillars so that most were crushed by the library falling in on them?

I should clarify - my reason for despising McVeigh (and Nichols) is because I am a native Oklahoman. I don't live there anymore, but I did when OKC happened, and it was infuriating to every person in the state. We were shocked, we were appalled, and we were angry.

Whether Eric was smart enough, I can not say. Dylan likely was.Not saying anything against Eric, I am just less familiar with his intelligence level than I am with Dylan's. McVeigh had military experience and had seen combat vs. high school & internet knowledge. I'm not sure it's a matter of intelligence, but rather experience.

Nichols, as it turns out, is quite a whiner too. Last I heard, he was moaning about his prison diet. Let's just say I didn't pity him .

Tomb, I agree that they may have had help. We know the Fortiers at least knew and didn't say anything, and I wonder if they were further involved than they admitted to. I also wonder about the Elohim City connection.

I do wonder what would have happened if E&D's bombs had gone off, but I'm thankful of not knowing.

Draw_It_White wrote:

I've little to no knowledge of bombs but if Eric & Dylan's had worked in the cafeteria would it not have taken out the 500 they estimated? The kids were all in a confined space and was the aim not to take out the two supporting pillars so that most were crushed by the library falling in on them?

I have read somewhere that even if they did explode it would not have brought the library down on top of the commons like they wanted. I don't know where I got that from though so I may be pulling it out of my arse.

lilypadlane wrote:

I should clarify - my reason for despising McVeigh (and Nichols) is because I am a native Oklahoman. I don't live there anymore, but I did when OKC happened, and it was infuriating to every person in the state. We were shocked, we were appalled, and we were angry.

Whether Eric was smart enough, I can not say. Dylan likely was.Not saying anything against Eric, I am just less familiar with his intelligence level than I am with Dylan's. McVeigh had military experience and had seen combat vs. high school & internet knowledge. I'm not sure it's a matter of intelligence, but rather experience.

Nichols, as it turns out, is quite a whiner too. Last I heard, he was moaning about his prison diet. Let's just say I didn't pity him .

Tomb, I agree that they may have had help. We know the Fortiers at least knew and didn't say anything, and I wonder if they were further involved than they admitted to. I also wonder about the Elohim City connection.

I do wonder what would have happened if E&D's bombs had gone off, but I'm thankful of not knowing.

Yes! I wasn't going to bring up Elohim City and some of the other things that have since come to light. I had read that about Nichols and also him whining about getting mail. Please make no mistake I have no pity for any of them. Nichols can whine all he wants about McVeigh threatening his family if he didn't cooperate, but all it took from any single one of them was a telephone call and the whole thing would have never happened. I seem to recall even McVeigh saying Lori Fortier should have been given the same sentence as her husband, but instead walked free. She was just as in on it as the rest of them. Hmmmm, kinda reminds me in a way of Robyn Anderson.

I apologize for bringing up painful memories for you, I couldn't imagine living there when that happened. It was truly horrific what McVeigh done. And to never show remorse, preferring instead to deem the children in the daycare "collateral damage".

I just want to say that I, too, despise McVeigh and Nichols, as well as the Fortiers. I am simply interested in the event and have researched it and studied it. I, in no way, glorify any of them. I am fascinated by McVeigh, because I don't for one second believe he didn't have remorse or regrets. I think it was a facade that he presented to the world for some reason. Heck, even Breivik could not kill 2 10 year olds he encountered on Utoya.

About an ANFO bomb, I don't think they could have pulled it off. It seems to be a very complicated process with numerous steps and ingredients that one can't just buy at Walmart. I also don't think they were smart enough, for some reason. Plus, they were kids and couldn't rightfully justify a huge quantity of ammonium nitrate, nor would it fly to be boiling sulphuric acid in Eric's kitchen without being found out.

Sorry for rambling!

No need to apologize. I am glad people still research and discuss OKC, as I believe the greatest honor that can be paid to the victims is that they not be forgotten,just as the best honor we can pay to the Columbine victims is to find the truth and make sure they not be forgotten. I also research OKC. I guess the biggest question for me remains : Why ? What was it in McVeigh's psyche that allowed him to do something so awful ?

Some of the comparisons between Columbine and OKC are spooky, and I never realized how alike Robyn Anderson and Lori Fortier were treated until you mentioned it.

lilypadlane wrote:

No need to apologize. I am glad people still research and discuss OKC, as I believe the greatest honor that can be paid to the victims is that they not be forgotten,just as the best honor we can pay to the Columbine victims is to find the truth and make sure they not be forgotten. I also research OKC. I guess the biggest question for me remains : Why ? What was it in McVeigh's psyche that allowed him to do something so awful ?

Some of the comparisons between Columbine and OKC are spooky, and I never realized how alike Robyn Anderson and Lori Fortier were treated until you mentioned it.

My opinion only, but I think McVeigh was stone cold sane during the planning and the actual attack. I think he truly thought the orders to storm Waco came from the Murrah building and this was his retribution. He openly wept for the children of Waco, but basically told the victims and survivors of OKC, "Get over it. Everybody loses someone they love." I'm, of course, paraphrasing. I think he relished the role of "monster" and played that up til the end. One thing is for sure, he kept his mouth shut about others' possible involvement and didn't roll over on anybody, which is very surprising to me. Again, though, I think this was part of the ploy all along, McVeigh claimed all responsibility, wanted the spotlight to showcase how "remorseless" and evil he was.

My husband is so sick of hearing me rattle on and on about Columbine, McVeigh, Breivik and 9/11 but I conducted and experiment with him the other day. I asked him if he knew the names of the perpetrators of each event and he did. I asked to give me 1 victim's name and he gave me a few from 9/11, but couldn't name anyone from the other tragedies.

That's what brings it home for me. We know all about the criminals, but very little about the victims and, to me, that is heartbreaking.

Thank you for your unique perspective, having been near the OKC bombing.

Tomb wrote:

lilypadlane wrote:

No need to apologize. I am glad people still research and discuss OKC, as I believe the greatest honor that can be paid to the victims is that they not be forgotten,just as the best honor we can pay to the Columbine victims is to find the truth and make sure they not be forgotten. I also research OKC. I guess the biggest question for me remains : Why ? What was it in McVeigh's psyche that allowed him to do something so awful ?

Some of the comparisons between Columbine and OKC are spooky, and I never realized how alike Robyn Anderson and Lori Fortier were treated until you mentioned it.

My opinion only, but I think McVeigh was stone cold sane during the planning and the actual attack. I think he truly thought the orders to storm Waco came from the Murrah building and this was his retribution. He openly wept for the children of Waco, but basically told the victims and survivors of OKC, "Get over it. Everybody loses someone they love." I'm, of course, paraphrasing. I think he relished the role of "monster" and played that up til the end. One thing is for sure, he kept his mouth shut about others' possible involvement and didn't roll over on anybody, which is very surprising to me. Again, though, I think this was part of the ploy all along, McVeigh claimed all responsibility, wanted the spotlight to showcase how "remorseless" and evil he was.

My husband is so sick of hearing me rattle on and on about Columbine, McVeigh, Breivik and 9/11 but I conducted and experiment with him the other day. I asked him if he knew the names of the perpetrators of each event and he did. I asked to give me 1 victim's name and he gave me a few from 9/11, but couldn't name anyone from the other tragedies.

That's what brings it home for me. We know all about the criminals, but very little about the victims and, to me, that is heartbreaking.

Thank you for your unique perspective, having been near the OKC bombing.

"Collateral damage" is what McVeigh called the children he killed.

I agree with your view though. McVeigh knew exactly what he was doing and he was aware of the consequences. His reason for the bombing was a lot more "legitimate" than the justifications of mass shooters. I'm not saying what he did was good or that his actions are justifiable mind you, but Waco was a huge fuck up on the governments part. In his mind he was taking revenge for innocent people against a oppressive government. In an insane kind of way its easier to understand than "I can't get laid so I'm gonna go on a rampage". McVeigh felt he was sticking up for every American, where mass shooters have a "me against the world" view. I don't think McVeigh would have been proud to have influenced Eric Harris.

But yeah I'm not promoting what McVeigh did or sticking up for him. I live in OK and I've been to the memorial a couple times. He caused a lot of suffering for what ultimately ended up amounting to nothing.

Ok, I have a question for folks who lived in or near OKC at the time. Was the glass of the Murrah building tinted? Both McVeigh and Fortier have said they could not see a daycare when they were casing the place. McVeigh claims he would have possibly changed targets had he known.

I believe his hateful remarks towards the victims and survivors were for shock value, a facade. I cannot see a man who openly wept at the deaths of children in Waco being so evil about the children who were killed in his bomb. By all accounts of those who knew him, he was said to be kind, caring, helpful. I think prior to the bombing he began to display a short fuse and a wicked temper. I just get the feeling that he relished this title of "monster" and "evil".

I agree that McVeigh's reasoning makes more sense than "I can't get laid" and other lame excuses bandied about by hormonal teenage boys, and I agree with everything you said. In his mind, he was sticking up for Americans' rights. I know this sounds like I'm sticking up for him but I definitely am not. In his mind, he'd tried to talk to people, handed out literature, sold copies of that racist propaganda The Turner Diaries, even at a loss to himself. I believe he told his sister he was past talking, and was moving to the action stage.

Oddly enough, I came across either a book or an interview with McVeigh after Columbine happened. He reportedly hated bullies, having been bullied as a kid himself. I think at that time, it was being portrayed that E & D were bullied and that's why they shot up the school. Surprisingly, he condoned their actions. I cannot find it now, so I don't want to quote him, but he was supportive of their actions.

I doubt he ever knew they planned their 2 20 pound propane bombs as causing more destruction than his 5,000 pound ANFO bomb. I somehow think he would have laughed at their naivety.

Oddly enough, I see some facial similarities between McVeigh and Eric Harris. I can't pinpoint what exactly it is.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I don't know how helpful this will be, but here is a photo of the Murrah Building as it appeared before the bombing.


You mention similarities. I notice a certain hardness in the jawline between Eric & McVeigh, though it could just be me.

Tomb wrote:

I believe his hateful remarks towards the victims and survivors were for shock value, a facade. I cannot see a man who openly wept at the deaths of children in Waco being so evil about the children who were killed in his bomb. By all accounts of those who knew him, he was said to be kind, caring, helpful. I think prior to the bombing he began to display a short fuse and a wicked temper. I just get the feeling that he relished this title of "monster" and "evil".

Sounds like Eric to me. It also sounds like they have to portray being evil to hide the fact they do feel remorse but have to shut it out in the name of the crime they commit. I feel Mcveigh and Harris are pretty much almost the same guys, they share the same bday month aswell though that's redundant.

anyway, wasn't there that whole theory on Mcveigh being told by people inside to commit the crime, and something about MK-Ultra, mind-control stuff he was under. There was a letter he wrote to his sister about the military picking him for a special mission or whatsoever...

I think overall what I meant initially was, E&D lacked knowledge on assuming the result they'd get with what they could get their hands on to make their bombs. It's SO surprising though, the internet's right there, can't they look up their results? So I'm confused as to their delusion.

liquorvamp wrote:

Tomb wrote:

I believe his hateful remarks towards the victims and survivors were for shock value, a facade. I cannot see a man who openly wept at the deaths of children in Waco being so evil about the children who were killed in his bomb. By all accounts of those who knew him, he was said to be kind, caring, helpful. I think prior to the bombing he began to display a short fuse and a wicked temper. I just get the feeling that he relished this title of "monster" and "evil".

Sounds like Eric to me. It also sounds like they have to portray being evil to hide the fact they do feel remorse but have to shut it out in the name of the crime they commit. I feel Mcveigh and Harris are pretty much almost the same guys, they share the same bday month aswell though that's redundant.

anyway, wasn't there that whole theory on Mcveigh being told by people inside to commit the crime, and something about MK-Ultra, mind-control stuff he was under. There was a letter he wrote to his sister about the military picking him for a special mission or whatsoever...

I think overall what I meant initially was, E&D lacked knowledge on assuming the result they'd get with what they could get their hands on to make their bombs. It's SO surprising though, the internet's right there, can't they look up their results? So I'm confused as to their delusion.

I think McVeigh later confirmed in an interview that he was lying in his letter to his sister. Also, when he was on the Nichols' farm, he joked about having a chip implanted into his butt (referencing all the shots he had to take in order to go to war. I think he was referring to the size of the immunization needle used). That seemed to take off as well. Again, he laughed it off in an interview and told the above referenced story.

My opinion only is that he told the story about being involved in special military missions as a way to deflect from his failure to make it through Green Beret training.

lilypadlane wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

I don't know how helpful this will be, but here is a photo of the Murrah Building as it appeared before the bombing.


You mention similarities. I notice a certain hardness in the jawline between Eric & McVeigh, though it could just be me.

Thanks! It does appear the glass is dark, possibly tinted, but I don't know for sure. I think they cased the building in the afternoon/evening hours so it is at least a possibility he didn't know there was a daycare center there. That's one story he has been consistent about.

I can't pinpoint what makes them appear facially similar, but the jawline does seem similar.

I just realized another parallel between Columbine and the OKC bombing. 22 years after OKC the government still refuses to release the surveillance videos that captured McVeigh on his trail to destruction. It reminds me of all the things Jeffco has kept hidden unless someone prevails in a lawsuit that forces them to release documents etc. I think there was indeed a John Doe [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and, by not releasing the footage, we are left in the dark except for several eyewitness statements that confirmed there were 2 men in the truck. Several people are still, to this day, filing FOIA requests to have more information regarding the OKC bombing.

Again, I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but I came across a sworn affidavit by one of the first responders arriving on scene soon after the blast. There were numerous ATF agents on the street and she asked them how many they had lost, to which they replied none. She further describes an agent who told her the entire agency (minus the civilians who served as secretaries, etc.) had received a page not to go to the office that morning.

Two horrendous acts that have left a permanent scar on American history still have so many unanswered questions. IMO.