Noob question about number of deaths

If they were decided to kill everyone and If they had a chance, why only 13 deaths?

No way to say for sure. I think that the killing just didn't turn out the way they wanted. They were not fighting monster or zombies. They were fighting scared crying children hiding under tables. I think it affected them. And also the bombs had failed so they felt like failures right off. It was all improv and I think they lost all bravado right away

When Eric shot and killed Cassie, the recoil of his sawed off shotgun hit him in the nose at close range breaking it. He could of easily shot and killed Bree, and others, but he seemed very "dazed" after that happened. That started the "quiet period", and could be one of the reasons that caused adrenaline to wear off and brought him back down to reality so to speak.

It's definitely no planned quantity of casualties I'll tell you that. They probably thought they killed more too, of those who were injured.

Lizpuff wrote:

No way to say for sure.  I think that the killing just didn't turn out the way they wanted.  They were not fighting monster or zombies.  They were fighting scared crying children hiding under tables.  I think it affected them.  And also the bombs had failed so they felt like failures right off.  It was all improv and I think they lost all bravado right away

If Eric was a psycho he wasnt affected by it for sure. Dylan, maybe...

ultraviolencelv wrote:

It's definitely no planned quantity of casualties I'll tell you that. They probably thought they killed more too, of those who were injured.

Yeah, the quantity of people that was shooted (some of them in vital parts) and survived was impressive.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],

That's because Eric wasn't a psychopath. There is no way that Eric can be positively diagnosed as a psychopath after his death. The 'doctors' who diagnosed him as one based their decision solely on a journal he left behind. There is no way to prove that this journal he kept was not written for an audience. Which I believe it was.

I like to go with what Cleaning Columbine said. There were a number of factors:
1. The bombs that failed to explode caused a huge blow to moral with over two years of planing down the toilet.
2.There were many injured, a number of them got shot in the head and survived, they must have thought they killed more than they did.
3.By the end they were very low on 9mm ammo to take on the police.
They left the library to check on the bombs with many victims still alive because they thought that they could be stormed disarmed and taken alive, and they couldn't risk it.

PotatoSallad wrote:

I like to go with what Cleaning Columbine said. There were a number of factors:
1. The bombs that failed to explode caused a huge blow to moral with over two years of planing down the toilet.
2.There were many injured, a number of them got shot in the head and survived, they must have thought they killed more than they did.
3.By the end they were very low on 9mm ammo to take on the police.
They left the library to check on the bombs with many victims still alive because they thought that they could be stormed disarmed and taken alive, and they couldn't risk it.

You do know that CC gets most of his information off of here right? Those sound like what we've all said throughout our time here. But good pointing those out clearly.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

PotatoSallad wrote:

I like to go with what Cleaning Columbine said. There were a number of factors:
1. The bombs that failed to explode caused a huge blow to moral with over two years of planing down the toilet.
2.There were many injured, a number of them got shot in the head and survived, they must have thought they killed more than they did.
3.By the end they were very low on 9mm ammo to take on the police.
They left the library to check on the bombs with many victims still alive because they thought that they could be stormed disarmed and taken alive, and they couldn't risk it.

You do know that CC gets most of his information off of here right? Those sound like what we've all said throughout our time here. But good pointing those out clearly.

I know, just pointing them all out in one post.

Jenn wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],

That's because Eric wasn't a psychopath. There is no way that Eric can be positively diagnosed as a psychopath after his death. The 'doctors' who diagnosed him as one based their decision solely on a journal he left behind. There is no way to prove that this journal he kept was not written for an audience. Which I believe it was.

I agree with what Jenn said here. I was discussing this with a therapist a few days ago. She found the idea of diagnosing Eric and Dylan posthumously absurd, given that there would have been no chance to observe either one of them in their daily actions and no chance to interview them .

I wonder , also, if the death toll would've been higher if several students hadn't "played dead" . Had the boys known, Patrick Ireland, for instance, was still alive, would they have shot him again ? Or left him as he was ?

lilypadlane wrote:

I wonder , also, if the death toll would've been higher if several students hadn't "played dead" . Had the boys known, Patrick Ireland, for instance, was still alive, would they have shot him again ? Or left him as he was ?

I can't recall of any instances they did multiple shots if a person still moved or wailed. I mean Sean for example, Dylan stepped on him and he flinched and Sean said he was convinced Dylan knew he was alive yet he never shot him again and he said "Sorry" to him.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

lilypadlane wrote:

I wonder , also, if the death toll would've been higher if several students hadn't "played dead" . Had the boys known, Patrick Ireland, for instance, was still alive, would they have shot him again ? Or left him as he was ?

I can't recall of any instances they did multiple shots if a person still moved or wailed. I mean Sean for example, Dylan stepped on him and he flinched and Sean said he was convinced Dylan knew he was alive yet he never shot him again and he said "Sorry" to him.

I know this isn't a popular opinion but I do sometimes get the impression that Dylan was very squeamish about shooting people in the in the beginning, and only kinda "loosened up" after entering the library. He got like 5 rounds outside and shot at people who he thought were already dead (Lance and Danny).

PotatoSallad wrote:

I know this isn't a popular opinion but I do sometimes get the impression that Dylan was very squeamish about shooting people in the in the beginning, and only kinda "loosened up" after entering the library. He got like 5 rounds outside and shot at people who he thought were already dead (Lance and Danny).

It's hard to tell really. Could be possible. I mean based on account he was the one that went vocal about his excitement to kill first but that could be him psyching himself out and shutting out how gruesome it was to convince himself he enjoyed killing.
But back to not shooting Sean again, I actually don't know why. and there's nothing in my mind now as to whether they shot multiple times people they realised were still alive or not.

Had the bombs gone off, the body count could have been so much higher - maybe even 100 more. It would be a much bigger event if the bombs had exploded. If their plan had worked then they could have killed so many people.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

PotatoSallad wrote:

I know this isn't a popular opinion but I do sometimes get the impression that Dylan was very squeamish about shooting people in the in the beginning, and only kinda "loosened up" after entering the library. He got like 5 rounds outside and shot at people who he thought were already dead (Lance and Danny).

It's hard to tell really. Could be possible. I mean based on account he was the one that went vocal about his excitement to kill first but that could be him psyching himself out and shutting out how gruesome it was to convince himself he enjoyed killing.
But back to not shooting Sean again, I actually don't know why. and there's nothing in my mind now as to whether they shot multiple times people they realised were still alive or not.

I don't think they really cared, I mean they could have just shot everyone one more time in the head to be sure, but they didn't. Who knows...

They were no Anders Breivik though [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] For him, He made sure every person that day got multiple shots and bled excessively. NO one could play dead around him. He made Eric and Dylan look so lenient and safe. I don't think the boys cared to check either if a person was dead or not. So, thankfully, body count didn't increase. Patrick Ireland waking up was one hell of a miracle.

Just pointing out that Cassie was the third person to be shot in the library, so they killed 7 more after her death ( I don't know which were Eric and which were Dylan), but it's a little ridiculous to think Eric breaking his nose effected him and somehow kept him from killing more.

Well obviously neither one of them felt bad for killing people because they killed 13 people. Even if the timers on the bombs when off, the bombs never would have instantly exploded. A propane bomb will never instantly explode. The tank needs to be heated to explode. That means having a fire lit underneath of it for about 20 minutes or so. And 1. Any fire that started would have been put out by the sprinklers and 2. If a fire did start, all the kids would have ran out of the Cafeteria before the tank heated up to the point of explosion.

So, there was never any chance whatsoever for those bombs to blow up. Even if they connected them correctly to the fuse and the fire was lit. There was still a 0% chance of an explosion. So the bombs would have been a huge failure any way you look at it. And it baffles me that they didn't test this out first or read more into and know these bombs never would have caused an instant explosion. This would actually be a good thing for [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] to discuss in one of his videos, because a lot of people are not aware that these bombs never would have worked or even understand how they were supposed to work.

I think there is 2 reasons they didn't kill more people. 1. Their adrenaline wore off and 2. They were disappointed in the bombs failing (Eric in particular). They spent a good amount of time trying to get the bombs to explode and by then most of the people were either hiding or had left the school. The entire thing was a huge failure and at that point, I think they just gave up. I have no doubt in my mind that Eric extremely unhappy with the entire project and probably felt it was a waste of time.

Analyzing topics:

Did not kill more because Eric broke his nose? No, they keep killing a lot of people after that.

Did not kill more because they thought they were a losers a they thought they were losers because the bombs have not exploded? I dont think so.They thought they were gods , had huge ego and they killed a lot of people after they knew the bombs didnt explode.

They losed adrenaline and excitement? Meh, maybe. They killed people in a row, so, they stoped. But why? They saw something? They heard something? Why they was angry and from one moment to another they even "save" Evan Todd that they hated... How they losed adreneline doing a thing they wished and planned since long time ago?

They saw people screaming and they fell in real? Dylan maybe. But Eric, NEVER! He was a psycho. Even Dylan showed he was loving that more that Eric.

JessSmith wrote:

Analyzing topics:

Did not kill more because Eric broke his nose? No, they keep killing a lot of people after that.

Did not kill more because they thought they were a losers a they thought they were losers because the bombs have not exploded? I dont think so.They thought they were gods , had huge ego and they killed a lot of people after they knew the bombs didnt explode.

They losed adrenaline and excitement? Meh, maybe. They killed people in a row, so, they stoped. But why? They saw something? They heard something? Why they was angry and from one moment to another they even "save" Evan Todd that they hated... How they losed adreneline doing a thing they wished and planned since long time ago?

They saw people screaming and they fell in real? Dylan maybe. But Eric, NEVER! He was a psycho. Even Dylan showed he was loving that more that Eric.

I can't tell you what to believe but if you are basing your beliefs about Eric on the work of Dave Cullen,please read some of the threads here about  his book.There is a lot of valuable information here about Cullen that may make you feel differently.

lilypadlane wrote:

Jenn wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],

That's because Eric wasn't a psychopath. There is no way that Eric can be positively diagnosed as a psychopath after his death. The 'doctors' who diagnosed him as one based their decision solely on a journal he left behind. There is no way to prove that this journal he kept was not written for an audience. Which I believe it was.

I agree with what Jenn said here. I was discussing this with a therapist a few days ago. She found the idea of diagnosing Eric and Dylan posthumously absurd, given that there would have been no chance to observe either one of them in their daily actions and no chance to interview them .

Lilypadlane,
I'd love it if you made a thread about your talk with the therapist.I'd like to hear more since many people insist the mental health profession is uniform on the depressive and the psychopath theory.

PaintItBlack wrote:

Lilypadlane,
I'd love it if you made a thread about your talk with the therapist.I'd like to hear more since many people insist the mental health profession is uniform on the depressive and the psychopath theory.

Done . This theory needs to go away. There are so many things from the Psychopathy Checklist used to diagnose the condition that can not be known by a journal. If the journal was written for an audience, then that alone is enough to taint any result .

Eric was, iirc, the only one who was seeing a psychiatrist, and without his mental health records, we can not know what his actual diagnosis was, though the uses of Luvox do give some hints as to what they may have been.

lilypadlane wrote:

PaintItBlack wrote:

Lilypadlane,
I'd love it if you made a thread about your talk with the therapist.I'd like to hear more since many people insist the mental health profession is uniform on the depressive and the psychopath theory.

Done . This theory needs to go away. There are so many things from the Psychopathy Checklist used to diagnose the condition that can not be known by a journal. If the journal was written for an audience, then that alone is enough to taint any result .

Eric was, iirc, the only one who was seeing a psychiatrist, and without his mental health records, we can not know what his actual diagnosis was, though the uses of Luvox do give some hints as to what they may have been.

I think the luvox can relate a bit to his diversion paperwork. He had too many thoughts and his mind was always racing. didn't he say they wanted him to stop having those racing thoughts at one point?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and is it also entirely possible for him to fake his way through his sessions and through his therapist? Sometimes patients say what the therapist wants to hear for an improving record so they can leave.

It absolutely is. Much like a hypochondriac can fake symptoms of an illness, a person can pretend to be far more well than they actually are. The course of therapy depends greatly on the patient's honesty.

Lizpuff wrote:

I think the luvox can relate a bit to his diversion paperwork.  He had too many thoughts and his mind was always racing.  didn't he say they wanted him to stop having those racing thoughts at one point?

I believe so. I would love to see his mental health records and know what his other actual symptoms were. Those racing thoughts may point to a different diagnosis that would also be impossible to make posthumously, but may provide an explanation for some of his behavior that is not related to psychopathy.

lilypadlane wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

I think the luvox can relate a bit to his diversion paperwork.  He had too many thoughts and his mind was always racing.  didn't he say they wanted him to stop having those racing thoughts at one point?

I believe so. I would love to see his mental health records and know what his other  actual symptoms were. Those racing thoughts may point to a different diagnosis that would also be impossible to make posthumously, but may provide an explanation for some of his behavior that is not related to psychopathy.

You and me both!

In My Opinion Eric and Dylan had a mixture of ego and complexes.

It is like, in some places, we have inferiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal) and elsewhere we have superiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal).

When we feel inferiority complex and low ego (in their case, maybe at school) we developed a depressive feeling that often leads to depression.

When we feel superiority complex and high ego, we feel like gods, as something unshakable and superior to all others. We thought that we can do everything and the others will venerate us.



Maybe a thing has fed the other. At school they were depresse and they developed a  severe increasingly depression .
When they leave school (to go home or something) their ego began to rise , and they began to think that the people who put them down were just a piece of shit and they would have to do something to counteract this . How they could continue to be demoted for peoples below them? It made no sense. (On their mind)


So , combining the fact Eric take luvox (which did he have suicidal and murderers thoughts all the time) and the fact he has a huge manipulation power, he may have convinced Dylan to join the scheme. How? Easy. Doing what the most terrorists do in order to recruit new members.


He took possession of the weaknesses of Dylan and his depression to convince him that the massacre was the best thing to do.

JessSmith wrote:

In My Opinion Eric and Dylan had a mixture of ego and complexes.

It is like, in some places, we have inferiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal) and elsewhere we have superiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal).

When we feel inferiority complex and low ego (in their case, maybe at school) we developed a depressive feeling that often leads to depression.

When we feel superiority complex and high ego, we feel like gods, as something unshakable and superior to all others. We thought that we can do everything and the others will venerate us.



Maybe a thing has fed the other. At school they were depresse and they developed a  severe increasingly depression .
When they leave school (to go home or something) their ego began to rise , and they began to think that the people who put them down were just a piece of shit and they would have to do something to counteract this . How they could continue to be demoted for peoples below them? It made no sense. (On their mind)


So , combining the fact Eric take luvox (which did he have suicidal and murderers thoughts all the time) and the fact he has a huge manipulation power, he may have convinced Dylan to join the scheme. How? Easy. Doing what the most terrorists do in order to recruit new members.


He took possession of the weaknesses of Dylan and his depression to convince him that the massacre was the best thing to do.

Please read something other than Cullen before you decide...It is of course up for debate but it has been suggested that the whole thing was Dylan's idea. I tend to agree with that. You should read the "Dylan's journal" thread here

Eric's use of Luvox may not have been depression related. Luvox has many uses , including but not limited to : OCD, social phobia,panic disorders, and depression.

Given that it was prescribed for his racing thoughts, my guess would be that it was prescribed for OCD that may have been something more, such as Bipolar Disorder that was as yet unrecognized. Though Bipolar can not be diagnosed posthumously, it would account for some of the behaviors that were attributed to psychopathy and other symptoms described such as:

Rage (journal & outwardly displayed)
Grandiosity (journal)
Sleep disturbances (mentioned by his father)
Racing Thoughts (mentioned by him)

I am not a medical professional, but I do have Bipolar Disorder myself, and while I won't claim that he definitely did or did not have it, I will say that this is why I don't consider the diagnosis of psychopathy reliable. Some of the symptoms displayed on the psychopathy checklist are explainable by other disorders as well.

Source - [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Editing to add - again, I'm not saying he did have it. I'm using these symptoms & diagnosis only as examples of what other conditions may explain some of his symptoms.

Let's not forget that Dylan shot a kid, Lance I think, point blank, in the face minuets after the massacre started when he asked for help, so how far can Cullen's theory about Dylan behind weak, depressive, and reluctant in the beginning, so easily manipulated by the big bad psychopath that was Eric really go.

JessSmith wrote:

In My Opinion Eric and Dylan had a mixture of ego and complexes.

It is like, in some places, we have inferiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal) and elsewhere we have superiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal).

When we feel inferiority complex and low ego (in their case, maybe at school) we developed a depressive feeling that often leads to depression.

When we feel superiority complex and high ego, we feel like gods, as something unshakable and superior to all others. We thought that we can do everything and the others will venerate us.



Maybe a thing has fed the other. At school they were depresse and they developed a  severe increasingly depression .
When they leave school (to go home or something) their ego began to rise , and they began to think that the people who put them down were just a piece of shit and they would have to do something to counteract this . How they could continue to be demoted for peoples below them? It made no sense. (On their mind)


So , combining the fact Eric take luvox (which did he have suicidal and murderers thoughts all the time) and the fact he has a huge manipulation power, he may have convinced Dylan to join the scheme. How? Easy. Doing what the most terrorists do in order to recruit new members.


He took possession of the weaknesses of Dylan and his depression to convince him that the massacre was the best thing to do.

No offense but you seem to have a very "day 1" view of the case. Many people (myself included) fell for the ego stuff before digging deeper into the case. The truth is there is massive amounts of evidence that contradict the view that E/D saw themselves as Gods. Eric's ego was specifically tied to the "REB" character he created to supplement his own unwanted sense of self. Dylan's talk of zombies was nothing more than a depressed kid giving himself reasons to die. Eric committed the shooting to finally feel some sense of power, whereas Dylan did it simply to ensure is own death. Even then that's just putting it in simple terms. I'd definitely recommend you read around the board some more, and as others have stated stay away from Dave Cullen. It'll take you a while before you get a good grasp on the case. There's a reason we all keep coming back to it after all these years.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Quote :

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
In My Opinion Eric and Dylan had a mixture of ego and complexes.

It is like, in some places, we have inferiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal) and elsewhere we have superiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal).

When we feel inferiority complex and low ego (in their case, maybe at school) we developed a depressive feeling that often leads to depression.

When we feel superiority complex and high ego, we feel like gods, as something unshakable and superior to all others. We thought that we can do everything and the others will venerate us.



Maybe a thing has fed the other. At school they were depresse and they developed a  severe increasingly depression .
When they leave school (to go home or something) their ego began to rise , and they began to think that the people who put them down were just a piece of shit and they would have to do something to counteract this . How they could continue to be demoted for peoples below them? It made no sense. (On their mind)


So , combining the fact Eric take luvox (which did he have suicidal and murderers thoughts all the time) and the fact he has a huge manipulation power, he may have convinced Dylan to join the scheme. How? Easy. Doing what the most terrorists do in order to recruit new members.


He took possession of the weaknesses of Dylan and his depression to convince him that the massacre was the best thing to do.

No offense but you seem to have a very "day 1" view of the case. Many people (myself included) fell for the ego stuff before digging deeper into the case. The truth is there is massive amounts of evidence that contradict the view that E/D saw themselves as Gods. Eric's ego was specifically tied to the "REB" character he created to supplement his own unwanted sense of self. Dylan's talk of zombies was nothing more than a depressed kid giving himself reasons to die. Eric committed the shooting to finally feel some sense of power, whereas Dylan did it simply to ensure is own death. Even then that's just putting it in simple terms. I'd definitely recommend you read around the board some more, and as others have stated stay away from Dave Cullen. It'll take you a while before you get a good grasp on the case. There's a reason we all keep coming back to it after all these years.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I feel both of you make equally good points. It's a debate but it'e entirely possible what Jess pointed out happened. It's a psychological trip.

JessSmith wrote:

In My Opinion Eric and Dylan had a mixture of ego and complexes.

It is like, in some places, we have inferiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal) and elsewhere we have superiority complex (but deep down we know we are equal).

When we feel inferiority complex and low ego (in their case, maybe at school) we developed a depressive feeling that often leads to depression.

When we feel superiority complex and high ego, we feel like gods, as something unshakable and superior to all others. We thought that we can do everything and the others will venerate us.



Maybe a thing has fed the other. At school they were depresse and they developed a  severe increasingly depression .
When they leave school (to go home or something) their ego began to rise , and they began to think that the people who put them down were just a piece of shit and they would have to do something to counteract this . How they could continue to be demoted for peoples below them? It made no sense. (On their mind)


So , combining the fact Eric take luvox (which did he have suicidal and murderers thoughts all the time) and the fact he has a huge manipulation power, he may have convinced Dylan to join the scheme. How? Easy. Doing what the most terrorists do in order to recruit new members.


He took possession of the weaknesses of Dylan and his depression to convince him that the massacre was the best thing to do.

Lets not forget that Dylan was the first to mention the idea of a shooting. Eric was no scheme leader. With their journals, the complex/ego theory makes sense - HOWEVER - their journals are in no way an accurate account of who and how they were. More of a performance, so to speak. From the short clips we have of Eric's behaviour in real life, and from messages with girls or anyone other than just himself (in his journal) he is very different. I do not see him as or believe him to have been this super charming recruiter that others think he was, he wasn't leading Dylan along like some kind of pet dog. No - both were doing it for themselves, for their own reasons, and those were much deeper and more complicated than ego vs complex.

Just to be clear I agree with what [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] said as a possibility up till the manipulating of Dylan to join the scheme because, we all know how that truly went down.
No doubt about it they fed off each other but we got to be clear that NBK was Dylan's initial thought and Eric made it come to live, while Dylan was just as manipulative as Eric if not more as he had everyone fooled.