Do you think they were always on the same page? Or were there arguments?

At any point. If so, which kid would have raised these concerns in your opinion? I often wonder if they had arguments at the beginning, like one of them saying to the other ''you are crazy''! or something like that and full blown moral related arguments taking place. Obviously we know they were on the same page at the end, but did they both just come to an instant agreement on killing hundreds of students. This question his always fascinated me. Especially since I've always had a hunch Dillon brought the topic up in the first place, possibly as a joke at the beginning, or a movie project. I wonder when it became a reality and if one of them questioned that reality to each other. Ever.

I think it was probably similar to how the van break-in incident supposedly played out; where Dylan suggested it and supposedly Eric was like "hell no" at first but they ended up doing it anyway. I think Dylan romanticized the idea of going on a Natural Born Killers-esque killing spree and that Eric would have been more interested in picking off specific people he hated (like Brooks). I bet they played around and bullshit with the idea as kind of a fantasy for a while and then at some point one of them suggested them doing it for real. I also think it was probably Dylan who was serious all along, and Eric being a loyal tryhard who wanted to prove himself, agreed.

I've always assumed Dylan tolerated Eric, while Eric considered Dylan a "true friend". That's not to say Eric wasnt considered a friend by Dylan, but I don't think it was an equal friendship. Eric mentions Dylan's name way more times than Dylan mentions Eric. Eric also refers to Dylan as "V" which seems to be a sign of respect. Just a couple mere months away from NBK Dylan still questioned whether he wanted to do it with Eric, while Eric wanted Dylan there from the start.

I honestly view Dylan in a much more manipulative light than I use to. Eric was certainly a means to Dylan end, and he wouldn't have been able to die without Eric. I do think there was a lot of negative co-dependency between the two.

Dylan needed Eric to help him die throughNBK.
Eric needed Dylan to feel alive through NBK.

Ultimately though they were such best friends they were willing to kill/die for each other. Regardless of their interpersonal views that a special kind of friendship. And damn evil one too.

I think they were both like a married couple. Hahah. Honestly, I've always wished I could be a fly on the wall during that time just to witness how they converse. It's only up for speculation how they really were with one another. But that's a hell of a toxic ANd loyal friendship that they had, and I hope they both knew that they were making use of one another and that aspect couldn't be argued over because to them they will get what they want in the end. I do agree however that Eric needed Dylan more only because Eric had nobody in the beginning and Dylan had friends before hand. It's only in terms of the rampage that Dylan needed Eric by his side till the end hence his agreement with following Eric's orders and being a step behind him. How I envisioned the conversation went is probably tongue in cheek where Dylan brings it up, Eric goes yeah what if we did that, that would be awesome, then Dylan pauses and says...no, really, what if we killed people, and then, kill ourselves? Then Eric looks at Dylan in silence and goes I don't know man...do you know how much work it'd take? We have to get our hands on guns, and make explosives. Then Dylan continues from there and probably convinces Eric it's do-able, they have a lot of time to plan and save money, let's just do it, then, that's all.

Lol this sounds like a fanfiction of mine. The only thing I can wonder about is whether they ever talked about the fear of death, and whether Eric ever asked Dylan how he feels about his life and why he wanted to kill himself.

I think they were both equally loyal to one another aswell, but Dylan in a manipulative sense to gain something from it and Eric in a sense where he'd have to cave cause he had no one else.

A great question! You guys have already written about many of the things I think.

I have always wondered which of them came with the idea of killing first? It could be Eric who mentioned he felt like killing certain people, or Dylan who told about his fantasies on going NBK either. Anyway, I think no matter who came with the idea first, the other surely welcomed the idea. Something like "finally, someone who feels the same as I do!"

I assume these things are not necessarily so unique.
There are many teenagers who just try to prove, and to make their friends impressed, they do things they would not necessarily do without peer pressure.
What makes it so special is that they were so good partners to each other. If only they had had other ideas than killing they could have supported each other at...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: do you think it was Dylan who came with the idea of breaking into that van, and convinced Eric to do it together? I mean is it your assumption, or is it documented somewhere? Sorry, but I might have not read all documents thoroughly

Very good that many of you see that this image of "poor, depressed, helpless Dylan" and "aggressive, violent Eric" is not realistic at all.
Even if it is true that Dylan was more emotional and of that "artistic" type (the girls' favourite, to be ironical) while Eric was rather a "boyish boy" to the extremities, this does not mean that Eric was the leader and Dylan the follower.
I think both had their manipulative tendencies - they had the intelligence and the "necessary" mental health problems to become manipulative -, but my impression is that this did not came in a cold and calculating manner. At least not towards each other. I mean both of them had enough despair and anger and so they did need each other.

Yes, Dylan had a wider circle of friends - but for one or other reason, these friendships did not make him satisfied. Reading his journal, I got the impression that he was afraid of being abandoned, and he felt that others took advantage of him, and he was practically used and not liked. What is your opinion about this?
Eric was... well... I have mixed emotions. Of course he had very bad attitudes I cannot identify with - being dishonest, saying/writing contradictory things, being a professional liar and having so radical political views -, but his loyality towards the very few whom he considered as important is still impressing. I remember he wrote that there were about five people he really cared about, and the others might as well die...

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: thumbs up! Your thoughts about them being like a married couple are very realistic. I cannot say anything else.

To answer the thread's original question, I assume there were arguments - maybe very serious ones - between them. But as they needed each other, and they had a common goal to achieve, they both were willing to make compromises. Otherwise Columbine shooting would have never happened, I think.

I've always wondered whether they fought between themselves after the van break-in. I can not for my life imagine how the conversation went down between them, and whether Eric was mad at Dylan for initiating the entire thing and then telling the cop it was both their ideas after Eric initially saved his own ass. Obviously Eric forgave him, but I know Dylan beat himself up a whole lot after the arrest.

Moonshadow wrote:

Yes, Dylan had a wider circle of friends - but for one or other reason, these friendships did not make him satisfied. Reading his journal, I got the impression that he was afraid of being abandoned, and he felt that others took advantage of him, and he was practically used and not liked. What is your opinion about this?
Eric was... well... I have mixed emotions. Of course he had very bad attitudes I cannot identify with - being dishonest, saying/writing contradictory things, being a professional liar and having so radical political views -, but his loyality towards the very few whom he considered as important is still impressing. I remember he wrote that there were about five people he really cared about, and the others might as well die...

Very good insight. Dylan was a depressed person, and that means that no matter how many friends he had in his life or people who cared about him, he will always feel empty on the inside, an obvious void, like something was always missing. It's not whether he felt used or unappreciated - maybe he did, but was a hopeless romantic.

I like that you pointed out Eric's loyalty cause that is definitely true. I am so impressed by his loyalty aswell, which goes to show that if he cared about someone he will really make sure he's attentive to them and delivers. In this case, once he has hopped on the idea of NBK and did all the planning, there was no turning back. And once this happened Dylan knew he hit the jackpot.

Moonshadow wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: do you think it was Dylan who came with the idea of breaking into that van, and convinced Eric to do it together? I mean is it your assumption, or is it documented somewhere? Sorry, but I might have not read all documents thoroughly

Its been speculated that the van break-in was Dylan's idea. Its listed in a couple places and there are some discussions that bring it up on this forum. I can't recall if it's officially documented anywhere... I've been pretty scatterbrained lately and haven't been keeping track of everything I've read!

I think the speculation originated from Eric claiming it was Dylan's idea when they got caught. And further research on Dylan's manipulation and Eric's loyalty makes it seem more realistic that it played out that way.

*edited to add I think Eric was also kind of a "goody two-shoes" type before he got involved in their little "missions" of gluing locks and TPing houses., and ultimately the van break-in. I honestly think he avoided getting in trouble with adults until his later high school years, which to me was like a rebellion phase.

Kiwik wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: do you think it was Dylan who came with the idea of breaking into that van, and convinced Eric to do it together? I mean is it your assumption, or is it documented somewhere? Sorry, but I might have not read all documents thoroughly

Its been speculated that the van break-in was Dylan's idea. Its listed in a couple places and there are some discussions that bring it up on this forum. I can't recall if it's officially documented anywhere... I've been pretty scatterbrained lately and haven't been keeping track of everything I've read!

I think the speculation originated from Eric claiming it was Dylan's idea when they got caught. And further research on Dylan's manipulation and Eric's loyalty makes it seem more realistic that it played out that way.

*edited to add I think Eric was also kind of a "goody two-shoes" type before he got involved in their little "missions" of gluing locks and TPing houses., and ultimately the van break-in. I honestly think he avoided getting in trouble with adults until his later high school years, which to me was like a rebellion phase.

Long time ago on this forum [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] had shown to me official reports - I'm not sure if it was the report of the officer on site or what the boys had INITIALLY claimed, but if I remember correctly the officer said that Dylan told him that it was both their ideas, but on the boys' solo reports Eric said that it was Dylan's idea. I remember the fact that Eric threw his friend under the bus but Dylan made it seem like it was both of theirs. I think I'd believe Eric, that Dylan initiated it but Dyl said that they BOTH did it, but in confessional sense, Dylan fabricated it abit so he wouldn't get all the blame. That's why he beat himself up so hard about the entire ordeal and having a record.

From this you can see how the dynamic plays out.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Kiwik wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] wrote:
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: do you think it was Dylan who came with the idea of breaking into that van, and convinced Eric to do it together? I mean is it your assumption, or is it documented somewhere? Sorry, but I might have not read all documents thoroughly

Its been speculated that the van break-in was Dylan's idea. Its listed in a couple places and there are some discussions that bring it up on this forum. I can't recall if it's officially documented anywhere... I've been pretty scatterbrained lately and haven't been keeping track of everything I've read!

I think the speculation originated from Eric claiming it was Dylan's idea when they got caught. And further research on Dylan's manipulation and Eric's loyalty makes it seem more realistic that it played out that way.

*edited to add I think Eric was also kind of a "goody two-shoes" type before he got involved in their little "missions" of gluing locks and TPing houses., and ultimately the van break-in. I honestly think he avoided getting in trouble with adults until his later high school years, which to me was like a rebellion phase.

Long time ago on this forum [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] had shown to me official reports - I'm not sure if it was the report of the officer on site or what the boys had INITIALLY claimed, but if I remember correctly the officer said that Dylan told him that it was both their ideas, but on the boys' solo reports Eric said that it was Dylan's idea. I remember the fact that Eric threw his friend under the bus but Dylan made it seem like it was both of theirs. I think I'd believe Eric, that Dylan initiated it but Dyl said that they BOTH did it, but in confessional sense, Dylan fabricated it abit so he wouldn't get all the blame. That's why he beat himself up so hard about the entire ordeal and having a record.

From this you can see how the dynamic plays out.

Yes that was from the 11k and can be found in the document section here. When caught for the van break in Eric lied and said they found the stuff by the side of the road. The cop asked again and Dylan repeated the lie. When asked again they admitted to the crime with Eric stating it was Dylans idea and Dylan stating they both thought of it at the same time.

Personally I find Erics version more believable but I think they egged each other on.

As for this thread topic I think Dylan would have said done or agreed to pretty much anything just to keep Eric around. That is not to say that I do not think they had arguments but they def did not have any fights bad enough to split them up. Everyone stated they were two peas in a pod. You couldnt find one without the other

I believe their relationship was so potentially volatile that any sort of aggression from either side would have ended the whole thing and someone would have chickened out. So I don't think there were any arguments, though I suspect Eric was the one saying 'lets do this!' and Dylan was being a yes man.

Of course Eric would state it was Dylan's idea. Did you expect anything less?  This is the same kid who stood before a judge in a court room and played a role.

I think deep down no matter what anybody says, this was Eric's dream. This was Eric's going out party. He was the first one to wake his happy ass up and run to the gas station. First one to fire off shots. Fired more, did everything more. First one to try to blow up the bombs in the cafeteria (knowing they could have easily gone off and killed both him and Dylan).

This kid didn't care about anybody or anything. He was an intelligent destructive teenager who thought the human race wasn't worth saving.

This for me is one of the great enduring mysteries of the case. I feel sometimes like I would rather have a record of any pre-NBK-planning conversation between them, a recording, a journal entry about the first time they talked about it, ect., over the Basement Tapes themselves. It'd be the ultimate insight to their dynamic, though such a thing probably doesn't exist. Just imagine, what thoughts could possibly be running through their heads? At the first open suggestion, this would have to have been a serious consideration, no posturing in front of a camera, no bravado, or manufactured hate. At least one of them really had to think and make the decision to go "yeah, okay" (more or less).

The horror of the crime itself sometimes masks people's ability to step back and go, "wait, HOW were these two kids able to seamlessly join forces like this?" Was it really just that one in a million instantly loyal partnership where they were gung-ho immediately, or did there have to be goading, convincing, or even manipulating along the way? As people, they had fairly different personalities and social dynamics, so I can't imagine there weren't spats or moments of frustration between the two. But that just makes it all the more inexplicable that it was never enough to break the pact or tip someone off.

Moonshadow wrote:

I have always wondered which of them came with the idea of killing first? It could be Eric who mentioned he felt like killing certain people, or Dylan who told about his fantasies on going NBK either. Anyway, I think no matter who came with the idea first, the other surely welcomed the idea. Something like "finally, someone who feels the same as I do!"

While it looks like many people (at least on this forum, including myself) think Dylan was the first to write about "going NBK", it's equally possible that Eric may have also been brewing something and beat Dylan to the punch in vocalizing the idea. Why not? There's no evidence otherwise that I know of. We'll simply never know, but it's amazing how with all the evidence we have, there is still no clear instigator. I can't even begin to imagine how that conversation would start. Personally I think it was maybe more of an idea that snowballed. Something that got proposed half-jokingly to see how the other one reacted, then they're making pipe-bombs, slowly making preparations here and there, stockpiling materials, giving their fantastical tirade a name, and then they just continued to feed into it/each other until they considered it their destiny.  

Like I said, I have to imagine that tensions were high at certain points. Dylan, in his writings, begrudgingly refers to "going NBK with Eric (gawd)" in lieu of who we think is a girl, so he perhaps harbored some resentments until he saw what an effective planner/partner Eric could be. I'm sure the arrest didn't help things, especially how the ever-loyal Eric pinned the blame on Dylan in his paperwork, which I find believable. Frankly I'm shocked that they were able to follow through with NBK after that. I suppose it instead brought them closer together since they both experienced the trauma of the arrest? I think it really could have gone either way there.

Some have speculated (wish I had links, sorry) that Eric and Dylan allude to annoyances they find in one another in their personal writings. For Eric, it's a short rant about people who smell and are unhygienic; some think this is a frustrated dig at Dylan. On Dylan's end, I imagine that he, as a lazy person by most accounts, would be often exasperated by Eric's dedication to planning and preparing. Maybe this is why Dylan had a system with his mom to get out of hanging out with him? Perhaps he wasn't afraid of Eric, he was too overwhelmed by Eric's tenacity for the "project" at some points. Just a speculation of course. I'd be so interested in knowing where in the process there may have been stress, and just how close it did or didn't come to falling apart completely based on their private interactions.

If anyone knows the post or write-up I'm referring to about the "annoyance" writings, feel free to post! It may have been a blog entry somewhere or a post on here, I honestly only have a very vague memory of it at this point.

EDIT: So I realize I didn't even answer one of the core questions of OP's post! (Ugh, it's easy to get wrapped in your own ramblings.) As far as questioning each other on the morality of the act, I feel like neither of them allowed themselves or each other to go there. The were intelligent enough to have some self-awareness, so both developed meager coping mechanisms to insulate themselves from the act of killing-- Dylan referring to everyone else as "zombies" and Eric stating that he'll imagine all his targets as DOOM enemies. Amazingly, I think the moral depravity of it all is where they may have clicked best, and any arguments in between were on petty matters or personalities being at odds. I would say that any moral conflicts, based on the evidence we have, came from Eric and his own personal battle with how NBK would affect others in his life (crying on tape, apologizing to Susan, rambling how others would be devastated, ect). Strangely, I think as 4/20 grew closer and the reality set in, Eric grew more disturbed with what they were doing, and Dylan grew more empowered (manipulating his mom after prom, having little to no apologies on tape). However, by this point I doubt any arguments would have come around since Eric all but resigned himself, however reluctantly, to the mission near the end.

By the way, what are people's thoughts on this regarding the "Passover exchange" on the basement tapes? If that conversation had somehow come up earlier in time, if Eric had realized Dylan's Jewish heritage maybe just a few more months beforehand, would that have been enough of a buffer to drive them apart or cause tension? Interesting to think about...

Juicy Jazzy wrote:

I believe their relationship was so potentially volatile that any sort of aggression from either side would have ended the whole thing and someone would have chickened out. So I don't think there were any arguments, though I suspect Eric was the one saying 'lets do this!' and Dylan was being a yes man.

You do bring up a good point. As I said earlier IMO there was a lot of "tolerating" between the two, particularly on Dylan's side. Dylan wasnt gonna risk NBK and his suicice plan over some bickering. Lets not forget that Dylan asked Sue to cover for him so he could skip hanging out with Eric. We can't be sure why Dylan wanted to avoid him, but its obvious he didnt like putting himself at risk of confrontations with Eric.

Pipistrelle wrote:

Some have speculated (wish I had links, sorry) that Eric and Dylan allude to annoyances they find in one another in their personal writings. For Eric, it's a short rant about people who smell and are unhygienic; some think this is a frustrated dig at Dylan. On Dylan's end, I imagine that he, as a lazy person by most accounts, would be often exasperated by Eric's dedication to planning and preparing. Maybe this is why Dylan had a system with his mom to get out of hanging out with him? Perhaps he wasn't afraid of Eric, he was too overwhelmed by Eric's tenacity for the "project" at some points. Just a speculation of course. I'd be so interested in knowing where in the process there may have been stress, and just how close it did or didn't come to falling apart completely based on their private interactions.

If anyone knows the post or write-up I'm referring to about the "annoyance" writings, feel free to post! It may have been a blog entry somewhere or a post on here, I honestly only have a very vague memory of it at this point. scratch

EDIT: So I realize I didn't even answer one of the core questions of OP's post! (Ugh, it's easy to get wrapped in your own ramblings.) As far as questioning each other on the morality of the act, I feel like neither of them allowed themselves or each other to go there. The were intelligent enough to have some self-awareness, so both developed meager coping mechanisms to insulate themselves from the act of killing-- Dylan referring to everyone else as "zombies" and Eric stating that he'll imagine all his targets as DOOM enemies. Amazingly, I think the moral depravity of it all is where they may have clicked best, and any arguments in between were on petty matters or personalities being at odds. I would say that any moral conflicts, based on the evidence we have, came from Eric and his own personal battle with how NBK would affect others in his life (crying on tape, apologizing to Susan, rambling how others would be devastated, ect). Strangely, I think as 4/20 grew closer and the reality set in, Eric grew more disturbed with what they were doing, and Dylan grew more empowered (manipulating his mom after prom, having little to no apologies on tape). However, by this point I doubt any arguments would have come around since Eric all but resigned himself, however reluctantly, to the mission near the end.

AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!

I feel like you guys are right with alot of the tolerance being from Dylan's side towards Eric. It's spot on, he needed Eric as he was his doer while he was there acting like the normal empathetic kid hanging out and planning his future. However I still feel that Dylan was the one convincing Eric to make what was a joke, a fantasy, happen. Eric was the one who was like I Don't Know man... And Dylan kept persuading to make it real.

Pipistrelle wrote:

This for me is one of the great enduring mysteries of the case. I feel sometimes like I would rather have a record of any pre-NBK-planning conversation between them, a recording, a journal entry about the first time they talked about it, ect., over the Basement Tapes themselves. It'd be the ultimate insight to their dynamic, though such a thing probably doesn't exist. Just imagine, what thoughts could possibly be running through their heads? At the first open suggestion, this would have to have been a serious consideration, no posturing in front of a camera, no bravado, or manufactured hate. At least one of them really had to think and make the decision to go "yeah, okay" (more or less).

The horror of the crime itself sometimes masks people's ability to step back and go, "wait, HOW were these two kids able to seamlessly join forces like this?" Was it really just that one in a million instantly loyal partnership where they were gung-ho immediately, or did there have to be goading, convincing, or even manipulating along the way? As people, they had fairly different personalities and social dynamics, so I can't imagine there weren't spats or moments of frustration between the two. But that just makes it all the more inexplicable that it was never enough to break the pact or tip someone off.

Moonshadow wrote:

I have always wondered which of them came with the idea of killing first? It could be Eric who mentioned he felt like killing certain people, or Dylan who told about his fantasies on going NBK either. Anyway, I think no matter who came with the idea first, the other surely welcomed the idea. Something like "finally, someone who feels the same as I do!"

While it looks like many people (at least on this forum, including myself) think Dylan was the first to write about "going NBK", it's equally possible that Eric may have also been brewing something and beat Dylan to the punch in vocalizing the idea. Why not? There's no evidence otherwise that I know of. We'll simply never know, but it's amazing how with all the evidence we have, there is still no clear instigator. I can't even begin to imagine how that conversation would start. Personally I think it was maybe more of an idea that snowballed. Something that got proposed half-jokingly to see how the other one reacted, then they're making pipe-bombs, slowly making preparations here and there, stockpiling materials, giving their fantastical tirade a name, and then they just continued to feed into it/each other until they considered it their destiny.  

Like I said, I have to imagine that tensions were high at certain points. Dylan, in his writings, begrudgingly refers to "going NBK with Eric (gawd)" in lieu of who we think is a girl, so he perhaps harbored some resentments until he saw what an effective planner/partner Eric could be. I'm sure the arrest didn't help things, especially how the ever-loyal Eric pinned the blame on Dylan in his paperwork, which I find believable. Frankly I'm shocked that they were able to follow through with NBK after that. I suppose it instead brought them closer together since they both experienced the trauma of the arrest? I think it really could have gone either way there.

Some have speculated (wish I had links, sorry) that Eric and Dylan allude to annoyances they find in one another in their personal writings. For Eric, it's a short rant about people who smell and are unhygienic; some think this is a frustrated dig at Dylan. On Dylan's end, I imagine that he, as a lazy person by most accounts, would be often exasperated by Eric's dedication to planning and preparing. Maybe this is why Dylan had a system with his mom to get out of hanging out with him? Perhaps he wasn't afraid of Eric, he was too overwhelmed by Eric's tenacity for the "project" at some points. Just a speculation of course. I'd be so interested in knowing where in the process there may have been stress, and just how close it did or didn't come to falling apart completely based on their private interactions.

If anyone knows the post or write-up I'm referring to about the "annoyance" writings, feel free to post! It may have been a blog entry somewhere or a post on here, I honestly only have a very vague memory of it at this point.

EDIT: So I realize I didn't even answer one of the core questions of OP's post! (Ugh, it's easy to get wrapped in your own ramblings.) As far as questioning each other on the morality of the act, I feel like neither of them allowed themselves or each other to go there. The were intelligent enough to have some self-awareness, so both developed meager coping mechanisms to insulate themselves from the act of killing-- Dylan referring to everyone else as "zombies" and Eric stating that he'll imagine all his targets as DOOM enemies. Amazingly, I think the moral depravity of it all is where they may have clicked best, and any arguments in between were on petty matters or personalities being at odds. I would say that any moral conflicts, based on the evidence we have, came from Eric and his own personal battle with how NBK would affect others in his life (crying on tape, apologizing to Susan, rambling how others would be devastated, ect). Strangely, I think as 4/20 grew closer and the reality set in, Eric grew more disturbed with what they were doing, and Dylan grew more empowered (manipulating his mom after prom, having little to no apologies on tape). However, by this point I doubt any arguments would have come around since Eric all but resigned himself, however reluctantly, to the mission near the end.

By the way, what are people's thoughts on this regarding the "Passover exchange" on the basement tapes? If that conversation had somehow come up earlier in time, if Eric had realized Dylan's Jewish heritage maybe just a few more months beforehand, would that have been enough of a buffer to drive them apart or cause tension? Interesting to think about...

About the Jewish point. I don't think it would have made much of a difference. Yes Dylan was Jewish but he didn't celebrate it or openly profess it. He was right there doing Heil Hitlers with Eric and Chris during bowling. He didn't take it seriously so why would Eric? I don't really think Eric was a Nazi anyway. I think he may have talked about those ideas and perhaps agreed with some to an extent but like all other things Eric his mind was constantly changing and so were his ideas.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

I feel like you guys are right with alot of the tolerance being from Dylan's side towards Eric. It's spot on, he needed Eric as he was his doer while he was there acting like the normal empathetic kid hanging out and planning his future. However I still feel that Dylan was the one convincing Eric to make what was a joke, a fantasy, happen. Eric was the one who was like I Don't Know man... And Dylan kept persuading to make it real.

It's SO hard to say. I feel like E&D's relationship went through many, many unknown toxic motions before they landed in a spot where they both were confident NBK was going to happen. I do think Dylan was more manipulative than people give him credit for, but I dunno, he'd have to be pretty darn good to be able to convince Eric if his heart wasn't in it from the get go. Potentially this is where Eric's temper/mental illness/poor self-esteem made him more vulnerable to persuasion? I still gravitate towards the age old notion that they both used each other for what they needed, and were conniving in their own ways, for different purposes.

Lizpuff wrote:

About the Jewish point. I don't think it would have made much of a difference. Yes Dylan was Jewish but he didn't celebrate it or openly profess it. He was right there doing Heil Hitlers with Eric and Chris during bowling. He didn't take it seriously so why would Eric? I don't really think Eric was a Nazi anyway. I think he may have talked about those ideas and perhaps agreed with some to an extent but like all other things Eric his mind was constantly changing and so were his ideas.

Fair point! I forgot in the moment how much of a documented hypocrite Eric really was. The idea still intrigues me though; I think that at that point in the game (when the Passover excerpt was taped) they were in too deep anyway to take any kind of "pause" or care about such small details. I think if something, (however insignificant or stupid) an uncomfortable conversation, a quirk, an unsavory opinion, had been revealed between them earlier, any ONE small thing to cause the other boy to take "pause", it maybe would have been enough to crack the bond. These were two pretty volatile people anyway, and Dylan in particular wasn't hurting for friends, so it's shocking to me that they tolerated each other so normally. The concept is mind-boggling, that all that time, neither took that one quiet moment to step back and reassess the other, or his own motivations. Or even more scarily, they might have reassessed, and still decided to follow through.

Pipistrelle wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

I feel like you guys are right with alot of the tolerance being from Dylan's side towards Eric. It's spot on, he needed Eric as he was his doer while he was there acting like the normal empathetic kid hanging out and planning his future. However I still feel that Dylan was the one convincing Eric to make what was a joke, a fantasy, happen. Eric was the one who was like I Don't Know man... And Dylan kept persuading to make it real.

It's SO hard to say. I feel like E&D's relationship went through many, many unknown toxic motions before they landed in a spot where they both were confident NBK was going to happen. I do think Dylan was more manipulative than people give him credit for, but I dunno, he'd have to be pretty darn good to be able to convince Eric if his heart wasn't in it from the get go. Potentially this is where Eric's temper/mental illness/poor self-esteem made him more vulnerable to persuasion? I still gravitate towards the age old notion that they both used each other for what they needed, and were conniving in their own ways, for different purposes.

Lizpuff wrote:

About the Jewish point. I don't think it would have made much of a difference. Yes Dylan was Jewish but he didn't celebrate it or openly profess it. He was right there doing Heil Hitlers with Eric and Chris during bowling. He didn't take it seriously so why would Eric? I don't really think Eric was a Nazi anyway. I think he may have talked about those ideas and perhaps agreed with some to an extent but like all other things Eric his mind was constantly changing and so were his ideas.

Fair point! I forgot in the moment how much of a documented hypocrite Eric really was. The idea still intrigues me though; I think that at that point in the game (when the Passover excerpt was taped) they were in too deep anyway to take any kind of "pause" or care about such small details. I think if something, (however insignificant or stupid) an uncomfortable conversation, a quirk, an unsavory opinion, had been revealed between them earlier, any ONE small thing to cause the other boy to take "pause", it maybe would have been enough to crack the bond. These were two pretty volatile people anyway, and Dylan in particular wasn't hurting for friends, so it's shocking to me that they tolerated each other so normally. The concept is mind-boggling, that all that time, neither took that one quiet moment to step back and reassess the other, or his own motivations. Or even more scarily, they might have reassessed, and still decided to follow through.

So do you think that if Eric found out Dylan was Jewish earlier on...lets say early 1998 he wouldn't have been friends with him?

ultraviolencelv wrote:

I feel like you guys are right with alot of the tolerance being from Dylan's side towards Eric. It's spot on, he needed Eric as he was his doer while he was there acting like the normal empathetic kid hanging out and planning his future. However I still feel that Dylan was the one convincing Eric to make what was a joke, a fantasy, happen. Eric was the one who was like I Don't Know man... And Dylan kept persuading to make it real.

I definitely think Dylan egged Eric on a lot. Dylan was aware that Eric hated the treatment he got at school. Dylan was aware Eric had a volatile temper. When I was in highschool I was well aware of all my friends different issues and where they sat on the self esteem scale. I don't doubt for a second that Dylan zoomed in on Eric's self esteem issues and worked them to his advantage. Although both boys were acting on the BT, the consensus between the Browns and Sue is Dylan was acting more than Eric. Dylan seemed to have no issue pumping himself up to meet Erics expectations. Without Eric there was no NBK, no suicide, and no Halcyon with his love. Poor Eric was so on edge all the time that it wasnt hard for Dylan to get him going.

Nirvana92 wrote:

definitely think Dylan egged Eric on a lot. Dylan was aware that Eric hated the treatment he got at school. Dylan was aware Eric had a volatile temper. When I was in highschool I was well aware of all my friends different issues and where they sat on the self esteem scale. I don't doubt for a second that Dylan zoomed in on Eric's self esteem issues and worked them to his advantage. Although both boys were acting on the BT, the consensus between the Browns and Sue is Dylan was acting more than Eric. Dylan seemed to have no issue pumping himself up to meet Erics expectations. Without Eric there was no NBK, no suicide, and no Halcyon with his love. Poor Eric was so on edge all the time that it wasnt hard for Dylan to get him going.

that is very fascinating. And I agree with you. Dylan had almost I'd use the word brainwashed Eric slowly and carefully, hitting his weak spots until he caved and made his brainchild come true. They both used one another for their own means but Dylan really hit the jackpot right there. It's fascinating. Nevertheless, Eric knew he also had no one so, might aswell for him.

Pipistrelle wrote:

This for me is one of the great enduring mysteries of the case. I feel sometimes like I would rather have a record of any pre-NBK-planning conversation between them, a recording, a journal entry about the first time they talked about it, ect., over the Basement Tapes themselves. It'd be the ultimate insight to their dynamic, though such a thing probably doesn't exist. Just imagine, what thoughts could possibly be running through their heads? At the first open suggestion, this would have to have been a serious consideration, no posturing in front of a camera, no bravado, or manufactured hate. At least one of them really had to think and make the decision to go "yeah, okay" (more or less).

Interesting post. But don't I think they ever got to a place that wasn't posturing.  I actually think almost everything they did in the last hour of their lives was a performance for each other of a sort.

I think you're reaching for straws if you truly believe Dylan egged Eric on or motivated him to commit this crime. I have no doubt in my mind Eric had way more influence on Dylan than Dylan had on Eric.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

definitely think Dylan egged Eric on a lot. Dylan was aware that Eric hated the treatment he got at school. Dylan was aware Eric had a volatile temper. When I was in highschool I was well aware of all my friends different issues and where they sat on the self esteem scale. I don't doubt for a second that Dylan zoomed in on Eric's self esteem issues and worked them to his advantage. Although both boys were acting on the BT, the consensus between the Browns and Sue is Dylan was acting more than Eric. Dylan seemed to have no issue pumping himself up to meet Erics expectations. Without Eric there was no NBK, no suicide, and no Halcyon with his love. Poor Eric was so on edge all the time that it wasnt hard for Dylan to get him going.

that is very fascinating. And I agree with you. Dylan had almost I'd use the word brainwashed Eric slowly and carefully, hitting his weak spots until he caved and made his brainchild come true. They both used one another for their own means but Dylan really hit the jackpot right there. It's fascinating. Nevertheless, Eric knew he also had no one so, might aswell for him.

I saw a theory on here a while back (can't remember who posted it) about Dylan giving Brooks the address to Erics website. The theory was he did it on purpose as a way to manipulate his two good friends into fighting. Why he would do so we'll never know, but I can think of a couple plausible reasons. One could have been simply for his own entertainment or just to see if he could pull it off. Dylan had a disdain for the "zombies" of this world because he believed he was on a much higher level of thinking. That would tie into his description of being a "child with a new toy" when it comes to his perception of the world. I'd be willing to bet most (if not all) of Dylan's friends were viewed as "zombies" to him. As we know he wore a mask of timidness around them and tried to hide the anger deep inside. I wouldn't put it past Dylan to toy with the people he was already lying to on a daily basis.

The second scenario plays a bit off the first theory too. A theoretical "battle to the death" so to speak. Either Brooks and the law would prevail and prove that Eric wasnt the rebel he acted like, or they would fail and show Eric to be superior. Maybe it was an early attempt on Dylans part to make a decision on going NBK? I've seen some say Dylan gave the address to Brooks as a way to get Eric in trouble on purpose, but I really don't believe that. I really do think it was a way to test Eric and to see if he was a safe partner in crime. If the kid whos building pipe bombs and blasting hate all over his web page doesnt get in trouble with the law then he'd seem less likely to get caught planning a shooting.

I'm just spit balling of course lol. I just thought that was an interesting thought that plays into the "brainwashing" you mentioned. I agree with you completely that Dylan slowly chipped away at Eric. Eric may have built most of the bombs and gotten deeper into planning the attack, but Dylan was always there fanning the flames and making it real to Eric. The simple fact that Dylan appeared to be another smart and angry kid interested in murder/revenge was ore than enough. Neither boy could accomplish their end goals without a partner, and had they not had each other then Columbine wouldn't have happened.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I love both of your theories. Such a broad way of Analysing the thought process and possible manipulating tactics Dylan may garner. The second one seems plausible enough. However are you aware that Dylan giving the website was false and it was Aaron who did it or are you explaining it In a hypothetical sense? If it wasn't through snitching about the site, I'm sure there were other ways Dylan tried testing Eric in the manner you speak of.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I love both of your theories. Such a broad way of Analysing the thought process and possible manipulating tactics Dylan may garner. The second one seems plausible enough. However are you aware that Dylan giving the website was false and it was Aaron who did it or are you explaining it In a hypothetical sense? If it wasn't through snitching about the site, I'm sure there were other ways Dylan tried testing Eric in the manner you speak of.

To be honest I'd forgotten it was Aaron until I saw your comment. I've seen it said that Dylan gave it to Brooks so may times that I guess it stuck. I feel kind of silly now for taking the time to type it all out haha.

I do think that kind of scenario sums up Dylan's hidden side pretty well though. IMO the real Dylan was selfish and not above manipulating others, especially towards the end of his life. I don't know if you recall the flask story Sue has told, about Dylan bragging to his parents after prom that he hardly drank any alcohol? He told them he wanted them to trust him, and then just a few days later he attempts to blow up his highschool before shooting innocent people to death and then killing himself. Dylan did that on purpose to keep their suspicion down in his final days without giving a shit how it would effect them after the attack. People can call Eric a sadistic psychopath all they want, but he wasnt nearly as cold as Dylan. Eric apologized profusely and tried his hardest to avoid connecting to his family. Dylan just didnt care about anything because as far as he was concerned the world ended with his death.

Nirvana92 wrote:

I do think that kind of scenario sums up Dylan's hidden side pretty well though. IMO the real Dylan was selfish and not above manipulating others, especially towards the end of his life. I don't know if you recall the flask story Sue has told, about Dylan bragging to his parents after prom that he hardly drank any alcohol? He told them he wanted them to trust him, and then just a few days later he attempts to blow up his highschool before shooting innocent people to death and then killing himself. Dylan did that on purpose to keep their suspicion down in his final days without giving a shit how it would effect them after the attack. People can call Eric a sadistic psychopath all they want, but he wasnt nearly as cold as Dylan. Eric apologized profusely and tried his hardest to avoid connecting to his family. Dylan just didnt care about anything because as far as he was concerned the world ended with his death.

Yes that's the word!! Selfish! I've even said so in another thread on here, that honestly if you look at it again, Dylan was selfish. He dragged Eric, somebody who could've possibly wanted to get out of NBK if he could, be it getting caught or what, who was possibly afraid to die, into his scheme of killing himself but he just couldn't do it alone. He must've reminded Eric bit by bit how everything was shitty, nothing was gonna change and he might aswell give up now and kill people just like how he always fantasised about it. What a grand scheme.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Nirvana92 wrote:

I do think that kind of scenario sums up Dylan's hidden side pretty well though. IMO the real Dylan was selfish and not above manipulating others, especially towards the end of his life. I don't know if you recall the flask story Sue has told, about Dylan bragging to his parents after prom that he hardly drank any alcohol? He told them he wanted them to trust him, and then just a few days later he attempts to blow up his highschool before shooting innocent people to death and then killing himself. Dylan did that on purpose to keep their suspicion down in his final days without giving a shit how it would effect them after the attack. People can call Eric a sadistic psychopath all they want, but he wasnt nearly as cold as Dylan. Eric apologized profusely and tried his hardest to avoid connecting to his family. Dylan just didnt care about anything because as far as he was concerned the world ended with his death.

Yes that's the word!! Selfish! I've even said so in another thread on here, that honestly if you look at it again, Dylan was selfish. He dragged Eric, somebody who could've possibly wanted to get out of NBK if he could, be it getting caught or what, who was possibly afraid to die, into his scheme of killing himself but he just couldn't do it alone. He must've reminded Eric bit by bit how everything was shitty, nothing was gonna change and he might aswell give up now and kill people just like how he always fantasized about it. What a grand scheme.

I'm still finding it hard to swallow this because from reading their journals I've always believed Dylan wanted to die and Eric just wanted to kill. Am I missing something here? So how can Dylan be more evil than Eric? Even though NBK was his idea I doubt he would find the means to follow through it without Eric's help; they both needed each other to pull it off of course.

aquillina wrote:

I'm still finding it hard to swallow this because from reading their journals I've always believed Dylan wanted to die and Eric just wanted to kill. Am I missing something here?

It's not wrong, you are right. What Nirvana and I have broken down is still up for speculation cause only the boys know what really happened. What I was just saying that while Eric had the desire to kill, it was also still fantasy, until Dylan somehow convinced him and caved him to do it for real. What we were trying to say is that Dylan must have done alot of egging and brainwashing to make Eric do NBK for real, and have him feel like it's his own decision to join Dylan, despite the fact that it's highly possible Dylan sneakily manipulated Eric to his own suicide. NBK and the murdering of people was something Dylan had to put up with and sportingly join Eric with, as much as know his ultimate goal was to kill his own self already.

I mean, for me, I've always felt that Eric may have had some doubt or hesitation to kill himself and that day itself he probably really didn't want to but as I've said many times on here, the failure of 4/20 and not wanting to think about all the damages done made Eric pull the trigger on himself as quick as possible, ironically even before Dylan.

If you think about, 4/20/99 may have just been Dylan's suicide after all and the killing of everyone/damages in the school was just a ruse so that Dylan wouldn't be alone in his death and he had a partner. Eric's role in it, was of course his fantasies coming to life, BUT, only with the convincing of Dylan and god knows what Dylan may have said to him.

aquillina wrote:

So how can Dylan be more evil than Eric? Even though NBK was his idea I doubt he would find the means to follow through it without Eric's help; they both needed each other to pull it off of course.

I never said nor ever implied that Dylan was more evil. Him being manipulative doesn't make him MORE evil than anyone. They both were. However, Eric had more weak spots than Dylan, and no friends, which is nothing but perfect opportunity in Dylan's eyes to find his partner in crime.

Eric's help is exactly why he was selfish/manipulative because all he had to do was sit back, occasionally help Eric but knowing Eric's fantasies and determination to blow up things and shoot people, it was perfect that he got Eric to do all the planning and work making it seem like it's what Eric wanted to do too. He probably did, Eric had as equal a role in NBK as Dylan did. But this is just trying to bring to light how Dylan was the perfect smooth liar. He's been hiding behind the depressive lovesick state he's always been. Yes, Eric needed Dylan too. Eric needed Dylan in general because he had no other friends.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

I'm still finding it hard to swallow this because from reading their journals I've always believed Dylan wanted to die and Eric just wanted to kill. Am I missing something here?

It's not wrong, you are right. What Nirvana and I have broken down is still up for speculation cause only the boys know what really happened. What I was just saying that while Eric had the desire to kill, it was also still fantasy, until Dylan somehow convinced him and caved him to do it for real. What we were trying to say is that Dylan must have done alot of egging and brainwashing to make Eric do NBK for real, and have him feel like it's his own decision to join Dylan, despite the fact that it's highly possible Dylan sneakily manipulated Eric to his own suicide. NBK and the murdering of people was something Dylan had to put up with and sportingly join Eric with, as much as know his ultimate goal was to kill his own self already.

I mean, for me, I've always felt that Eric may have had some doubt or hesitation to kill himself and that day itself he probably really didn't want to but as I've said many times on here, the failure of 4/20 and not wanting to think about all the damages done made Eric pull the trigger on himself as quick as possible, ironically even before Dylan.

If you think about, 4/20/99 may have just been Dylan's suicide after all and the killing of everyone/damages in the school was just a ruse so that Dylan wouldn't be alone in his death and he had a partner. Eric's role in it, was of course his fantasies coming to life, BUT, only with the convincing of Dylan and god knows what Dylan may have said to him.

Thanks for the input. That's a very good point you have. They both needed each other to make their ends meet. And also from reading his journal Dylan wanted to have this some sort of epic death scene in such a horrific. Do you think their arrest in January is what triggered their rage, and hatred toward everything?

aquillina wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

I'm still finding it hard to swallow this because from reading their journals I've always believed Dylan wanted to die and Eric just wanted to kill. Am I missing something here?

It's not wrong, you are right. What Nirvana and I have broken down is still up for speculation cause only the boys know what really happened. What I was just saying that while Eric had the desire to kill, it was also still fantasy, until Dylan somehow convinced him and caved him to do it for real. What we were trying to say is that Dylan must have done alot of egging and brainwashing to make Eric do NBK for real, and have him feel like it's his own decision to join Dylan, despite the fact that it's highly possible Dylan sneakily manipulated Eric to his own suicide. NBK and the murdering of people was something Dylan had to put up with and sportingly join Eric with, as much as know his ultimate goal was to kill his own self already.

I mean, for me, I've always felt that Eric may have had some doubt or hesitation to kill himself and that day itself he probably really didn't want to but as I've said many times on here, the failure of 4/20 and not wanting to think about all the damages done made Eric pull the trigger on himself as quick as possible, ironically even before Dylan.

If you think about, 4/20/99 may have just been Dylan's suicide after all and the killing of everyone/damages in the school was just a ruse so that Dylan wouldn't be alone in his death and he had a partner. Eric's role in it, was of course his fantasies coming to life, BUT, only with the convincing of Dylan and god knows what Dylan may have said to him.

Thanks for the input. That's a very good point you have. They both needed each other to make their ends meet. And also from reading his journal Dylan wanted to have this some sort of epic death scene in such a horrific. Do you think their arrest in January is what triggered their rage, and hatred toward everything?

I think it was a push for Eric but Dylan had been stewing for years by that point. He was already angry, depressed, and ready to die. I think he used that push for Eric and got him into the plan

Sane One wrote:

I think you're reaching for straws if you truly believe Dylan egged Eric on or motivated him to commit this crime. I have no doubt in my mind Eric had way more influence on Dylan than Dylan had on Eric.

I don't think there's any reaching at all. Even though it's just speculation, I strongly believe it's the most plausible one. Eric had way more influence on Dylan? Lol no Dylan didn't need Eric before NBK if they weren't best friends. Dylan had a circle of people with him, more people recognised and liked him, he was his own person, he minded his own business, people don't give that much shit to him as opposed to what Eric had gotten. If anything Eric copied anything Dylan was into by association alongside the friends that Dylan had. Eric was unintentionally vocal with his anger, rage, what he hated, he showed who he was to everyone most of the time. Dylan probably realised that he could get Eric to do something that he wanted if he played around the initiation carefully. Don't be fooled by the way Dylan was always brooding behind Eric, taking his orders, listening to him etc, cause most likely he was being that way on purpose so he could keep Eric. Eric hardly influenced anyone, if anything he copies people and he admitted that himself.

Plus Dylan always had suicide talk in his journal. Eric only started talking about NBK much later despite that fact before that most of his journal entries were about missions, things he hated, his rage, society-shit etc, tongue in cheek statements about wanting to hurt people, until NBK came in where he talked about needing weapons and all the damage he wants to do.

And I'm saying all this while being Eric-biased. I'm openly admitting the fact that Eric may have gotten duped by Dylan to his death and not realising it the whole time. I would try to make Eric look good, like his "Reb" persona, but he ain't nothing like a badass at all. People like Dylan are the type you should watch out for, I see a little bit of that personality in me, with all the lovesick depression thing he had going on but he managed to make someone plan a massacre for him, lying to his mother about what a good guy he has been with all the disassociation, controlling his anger towards his mom and then returning home with a mother's day gift, calling the library staff a bitch and then saying It doesn't matter anymore. I would give props to Eric for at least keeping it real though. While he also lied his way through many things, closing to NBK he fought hard with being close with family and at the least made apologies on tape to anyone who may be affected by this.

Having a partner in crime isn't as perfect as it may seem, it's hardly romantic or something to look up to. I strongly believe it's standard that one of the two would have to be the better schemer to make it work. In this case Dylan takes that title. During the van break in Dylan tried to fabricate to the police and kept the same story throughout, while Eric during the second questioning threw his friend under the bus. So you see who has the better criminal-lying sort of mindset?

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Having a partner in crime isn't as perfect as it may seem, it's hardly romantic or something to look up to. I strongly believe it's standard that one of the two would have to be the better schemer to make it work. In this case Dylan takes that title. During the van break in Dylan tried to fabricate to the police and kept the same story throughout, while Eric during the second questioning threw his friend under the bus. So you see who has the better criminal-lying sort of mindset?

This is interesting. I never thought of it this way. I had always assumed that Eric threw his friend under the bus just to try to save his own ass.  And that Dylan was just trying to not throw Eric under the bus while not taking all the blame himself.

Also, I always got the feeling that Eric's parents weren't very close and warm with him. Listening to Wayne's 911 call that day kind of confirms this for me.  I mean, if I thought my child was involved I'd be absolutely hysterical.  Of course this is just my opinion......we don't have any real evidence of this.  But if what I've read is true, his parents did not collect his body or view his body or collect his belongings or have a service for him, while Dylan's parents did all these things for Dylan. It seems like Dylan's parents were actually more loving and warm towards Dylan, which makes me think of Dylan as more cold and callous than Eric. Again, of course I don't have any evidence of this, but we do know that Dylan's parents have spoken out since the massacre and Sue even somewhat defended Dylan in her book, while Eric's parents have said nothing. So there's that.

Freezingmoon wrote:

It seems like Dylan's parents were actually more loving and warm towards Dylan, which makes me think of Dylan as more cold and callous than Eric. Again, of course I don't have any evidence of this, but we do know that Dylan's parents have spoken out since the massacre and Sue even somewhat defended Dylan in her book, while Eric's parents have said nothing.

Exactly. So in contrast, with all the love and attention that Dylan gets, what he has done has made him more cold. For Eric with the lack of the warmth, you can see and understand why he tries so hard, he probably has tried to reach out to his dad a couple of times and gets turned down or misunderstood whatsoever, and with the lack of true acquaintance, his loyalty diverted to solely Dylan. and with the build up of anger and rejection, he thought, might aswell dedicated myself to the planning of NBK.

Freezingmoon wrote:

I had always assumed that Eric threw his friend under the bus just to try to save his own ass. And that Dylan was just trying to not throw Eric under the bus while not taking all the blame himself.

That is correct, is it like that, what I meant was that Dylan kept up with lying throughout while Eric caved and told the truth. So he snitched first.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Freezingmoon wrote:

It seems like Dylan's parents were actually more loving and warm towards Dylan, which makes me think of Dylan as more cold and callous than Eric. Again, of course I don't have any evidence of this, but we do know that Dylan's parents have spoken out since the massacre and Sue even somewhat defended Dylan in her book, while Eric's parents have said nothing.

Exactly. So in contrast, with all the love and attention that Dylan gets, what he has done has made him more cold. For Eric with the lack of the warmth, you can see and understand why he tries so hard, he probably has tried to reach out to his dad a couple of times and gets turned down or misunderstood whatsoever, and with the lack of true acquaintance, his loyalty diverted to solely Dylan. and with the build up of anger and rejection, he thought, might aswell dedicated myself to the planning of NBK.

So Dylan took advantage of the love and attention he got from his parents making them believe that he was a good kid when in reality he's just getting more and more depressed. Which kinda makes sense. I wouldn't think he'd be cold but more like aloof and just didn't give a f***. Eric on other hand just garnered more and more hatred, even though he tried to play it cool.

aquillina wrote:

So Dylan took advantage of the love and attention he got from his parents making them believe that he was a good kid when in reality he's just getting more and more depressed. Which kinda makes sense. I wouldn't think he'd be cold but more like aloof and just didn't f***. Eric on other hand just garnered more and more hatred, even though he tried to play it cool.

Yup. perfect. it's so sad. They're almost ying and yang.

Dylan isn't the manipulating type. He couldn't sell a brand new benz for half of what it's worth even if he tried. He was lazy, depressed and hopeless. He needed guidance and found it in somebody like Eric. Eric started Columbine (that's my opinion). A combination of factors led to it but he kick started the entire thing mainly due to him being picked on because he was scrawny and he didn't like how society functioned (social ladder). In regards to this, not much has changed. Great and even not great athletes get preferential treatment that other students/people don't get. That's just the way it is. Nothing will ever change.

Dylan is at fault because he could have easily just ended his life in his bedroom but didn't, he chose to go out taking other people out and only he knows the answer as to why.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

I'm still finding it hard to swallow this because from reading their journals I've always believed Dylan wanted to die and Eric just wanted to kill. Am I missing something here?

It's not wrong, you are right. What Nirvana and I have broken down is still up for speculation cause only the boys know what really happened. What I was just saying that while Eric had the desire to kill, it was also still fantasy, until Dylan somehow convinced him and caved him to do it for real. What we were trying to say is that Dylan must have done alot of egging and brainwashing to make Eric do NBK for real, and have him feel like it's his own decision to join Dylan, despite the fact that it's highly possible Dylan sneakily manipulated Eric to his own suicide. NBK and the murdering of people was something Dylan had to put up with and sportingly join Eric with, as much as know his ultimate goal was to kill his own self already.

I mean, for me, I've always felt that Eric may have had some doubt or hesitation to kill himself and that day itself he probably really didn't want to but as I've said many times on here, the failure of 4/20 and not wanting to think about all the damages done made Eric pull the trigger on himself as quick as possible, ironically even before Dylan.

If you think about, 4/20/99 may have just been Dylan's suicide after all and the killing of everyone/damages in the school was just a ruse so that Dylan wouldn't be alone in his death and he had a partner. Eric's role in it, was of course his fantasies coming to life, BUT, only with the convincing of Dylan and god knows what Dylan may have said to him.

I'm so glad to see you agree with me Ultra. Of course everything we discuss here is pure speculation, but I feel like the majority of Columbiners still see Dylan through "rose colored glasses". Dylan's personal mission was to create a scenario that would end with his death or force his hand in suicide. I'm confident that Dylan didnt actually care whether the bombs killed 250+ people or not. And im not saying he didnt want to kill people either, but that killing was ultimately a means to an end for him. The bombs, the cool tactical gear, the Wrath/Natural Selection shirts, and all the theatrics were tools to get Eric pumped up and going along with the plan.

All one really has to do is read their journals. Eric mentions Dylan loads more than Dylan mentions Eric. Eric writes about how awesome NBK will be, while Dylan just talks about how excited he is to die. I just don't understand how Dylan's selfish and manipulative behavior isn't more obvious to people. Dylan could have easily put his gun to his head at home, but instead he required the deaths of 13 innocent people before he pulled that trigger. It doesn't get much more selfish than that.

Sane One wrote:

Dylan isn't the manipulating type. He couldn't sell a brand new benz for half of what it's worth even if he tried. He was lazy, depressed and hopeless. He needed guidance and found it in somebody like Eric. Eric started Columbine (that's my opinion). A combination of factors led to it but he kick started the entire thing mainly due to him being picked on because he was scrawny and he didn't like how society functioned (social ladder). In regards to this, not much has changed. Great and even not great athletes get preferential treatment that other students/people don't get. That's just the way it is. Nothing will ever change.

Dylan is at fault because he could have easily just ended his life in his bedroom but didn't, he chose to go out taking other people out and only he knows the answer as to why.

Nobody said a depressed person couldn't be manipulative. Dylan was manipulative. The prove is all out in the open. And no, he didn't find guidance in Eric. What he found was a comrade, a best friend, or maybe Eric to him was someone who could understand his emotional side, this I don't know, I'm gonna assume the both of them have a connection only they know.

He chose to go out taking other people out aswell because of everything that we have discussed here, he couldn't do it alone and since he found Eric who had all the anger and desire to kill people, NBK was killing two birds with one stone, especially for Dylan. He could die with someone and he did his friend a favor by helping him kill people and make bombs too.

Maybe the way Dylan pitched NBK-The killing of people to Eric was cleverly chosen, picking on Eric's weak sides, about being bullied, how jocks and zombies suck, things that Eric always felt and thought about, and then convinced him to kill everyone. But he pitched this to Eric knowing that deep down he needed a ruse and a partner to kill HIMSELF. Do you see how it would work out perfectly?

Sane One wrote:

Dylan isn't the manipulating type. He couldn't sell a brand new benz for half of what it's worth even if he tried. He was lazy, depressed and hopeless. He needed guidance and found it in somebody like Eric. Eric started Columbine (that's my opinion). A combination of factors led to it but he kick started the entire thing mainly due to him being picked on because he was scrawny and he didn't like how society functioned (social ladder). In regards to this, not much has changed. Great and even not great athletes get preferential treatment that other students/people don't get. That's just the way it is. Nothing will ever change.

Dylan is at fault because he could have easily just ended his life in his bedroom but didn't, he chose to go out taking other people out and only he knows the answer as to why.

Would Dylan be able to talk someone like Rocky into NBK? Probably not. He had Eric. And Eric was already mad with the world so he had a head start but Dylan def. manipulated his mind and focused him on NBK. I think without Dylan Eric would have never gotten the jumpstart for NBK

Nobody isn't saying Dylan isn't selfish in what he did, of course he is. He took out innocent people before doing what he intended to do all along which was kill himself. That's very selfish.

But from everything I gathered, I think many of the guys who sincerely knew them, they came to conclusion if somebody was going to back out at the last minute, it would have been Dylan. That tells you all you need to know or at least it does for me.

Sane One wrote:

Nobody isn't saying Dylan isn't selfish in what he did, of course he is. He took out innocent people before doing what he intended to do all along which was kill himself. That's very selfish.

But from everything I gathered, I think many of the guys who sincerely knew them, they came to conclusion if somebody was going to back out at the last minute, it would have been Dylan. That tells you all you need to know or at least it does for me.

It tells us that even his closest friends didn't know the real Dylan. Only Eric and the students who died at Columbine in April of '99 know the real Dylan - a cold, calculated murderer.

Someone who is just 'depressed' doesn't decide to kill other people. "Why didn't he kill himself in his room?" - perhaps because he also had the innate desire to end another's life. He was as sick and twisted as Eric.

Do not forget he was hollering and laughing while shooting kids on the actual day, Eric was quiet and stone faced. That tells me everything I need to know.

Ivan wrote:

Sane One wrote:

Nobody isn't saying Dylan isn't selfish in what he did, of course he is. He took out innocent people before doing what he intended to do all along which was kill himself. That's very selfish.

But from everything I gathered, I think many of the guys who sincerely knew them, they came to conclusion if somebody was going to back out at the last minute, it would have been Dylan. That tells you all you need to know or at least it does for me.

It tells us that even his closest friends didn't know the real Dylan. Only Eric and the students who died at Columbine in April of '99 know the real Dylan - a cold, calculated murderer.

Absolutely agree. Dylan was very careful and very skilled at his deception. His friends may have thought he would have been more likely to back out than Eric but the reality is that he went through with it and never left any indication that he doubted he would ultimately do this. It makes me believe that he was even more manipulative and deceitful than Eric. Several people mentioned that they weren't surprised about Eric but the fact that no one expected this of Dylan is only proof of his ability to hide his intentions.

sscc wrote:

Ivan wrote:

Sane One wrote:

Nobody isn't saying Dylan isn't selfish in what he did, of course he is. He took out innocent people before doing what he intended to do all along which was kill himself. That's very selfish.

But from everything I gathered, I think many of the guys who sincerely knew them, they came to conclusion if somebody was going to back out at the last minute, it would have been Dylan. That tells you all you need to know or at least it does for me.

It tells us that even his closest friends didn't know the real Dylan. Only Eric and the students who died at Columbine in April of '99 know the real Dylan - a cold, calculated murderer.

Absolutely agree. Dylan was very careful and very skilled at his deception. His friends may have thought he would have been more likely to back out than Eric but the reality is that he went through with it and never left any indication that he doubted he would ultimately do this. It makes me believe that he was even more manipulative and deceitful than Eric. Several people mentioned that they weren't surprised about Eric but the fact that no one expected this of Dylan is only proof of his ability to hide his intentions.

So now my question, how could Dylan go from suicidal to homicidal?

aquillina wrote:

So now my question, how could Dylan go from suicidal to homicidal?

Id think that he didn't go homicidal, I think he killed people out of obligation that day cause that was Eric's desire so he was there helping his Friend. He was stone-cold disassossciated with reality by then that taking people out was easy breezy. The hollering and cheering was In favor of Eric to get him pumped up and probably for himself that he was gonna die.

And Dylan backing out last minute? Absolutely not. If anyone I feel truly truly wanted to back out or wished something happened that 4/20 couldn't happen, it's Eric. I just feel it. Eric that angry sorry guy, I think he could've been saved somehow, even though I know Dylan had no guts to kill himself. Notice the stalling and apologies he made on tape and Dylan had to hurry him up.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

So now my question, how could Dylan go from suicidal to homicidal?

Id think that he didn't go homicidal, I think he killed people out of obligation that day cause that was Eric's desire so he was there helping his Friend. He was stone-cold disassossciated with reality by then that taking people out was easy breezy.

I disagree about this. I think Dylan was extremely resentful of the people around him, based on his journal writings. He didn't write this for Eric and by 11/97 he was talking about going on a killing spree. He felt abandoned by everyone at this moment. After Zach Heckler, his best friend, stopped spending as much time with him because he got a girlfriend (Devon Adams) starting in the summer of '97, maybe Dylan started to feel that even those closest to him would "betray" him eventually. He couldn't stand being alone and he especially couldn't stand being alone while even his close friend was able to find a girl who loved him. I think Dylan really wanted revenge. I think he had a completely personal motivation for his participation on 4/20 where he felt that this would be a way to punish everyone for leaving him alone to think about killing himself all the time. I think that's how it went from suicidal ideation to homicidal ideation. Of course, I can't know for sure how much Eric influenced him since Eric didn't start his journal until months later but I tend to believe that Dylan wanted to kill people independently of Eric's influence.

Edit: This also explains the idea of "wrath." Dylan was not only depressed but he was extremely angry and suicide was not good enough when he felt he had been mistreated by life.