Do you think they were always on the same page? Or were there arguments?

sscc wrote:

I disagree about this. I think Dylan was extremely resentful of the people around him, based on his journal writings. He didn't write this for Eric and by 11/97 he was talking about going on a killing spree. He felt abandoned by everyone at this moment. After Zach Heckler, his best friend, stopped spending as much time with him because he got a girlfriend (Devon Adams) starting in the summer of '97, maybe Dylan started to feel that even those closest to him would "betray" him eventually. He couldn't stand being alone and he especially couldn't stand being alone while even his close friend was able to find a girl who loved him. I think Dylan really wanted revenge. I think he had a completely personal motivation for his participation on 4/20 where he felt that this would be a way to punish everyone for leaving him alone to think about killing himself all the time. I think that's how it went from suicidal ideation to homicidal ideation. Of course, I can't know for sure how much Eric influenced him since Eric didn't start his journal until months later but I tend to believe that Dylan wanted to kill people independently of Eric's influence.

Edit: This also explains the idea of "wrath." Dylan was not only depressed but he was extremely angry and suicide was not good enough when he felt he had been mistreated by life.

okay. I'm not disputing that at all. That could be it too. For me I've always focused on the fact he did his Friend a favor for his own suicidal means. Obviously along the way he felt the adrenaline to take others out too.

sscc wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

So now my question, how could Dylan go from suicidal to homicidal?

Id think that he didn't go homicidal, I think he killed people out of obligation that day cause that was Eric's desire so he was there helping his Friend. He was stone-cold disassossciated with reality by then that taking people out was easy breezy.

I disagree about this. I think Dylan was extremely resentful of the people around him, based on his journal writings. He didn't write this for Eric and by 11/97 he was talking about going on a killing spree. He felt abandoned by everyone at this moment. After Zach Heckler, his best friend, stopped spending as much time with him because he got a girlfriend (Devon Adams) starting in the summer of '97, maybe Dylan started to feel that even those closest to him would "betray" him eventually. He couldn't stand being alone and he especially couldn't stand being alone while even his close friend was able to find a girl who loved him. I think Dylan really wanted revenge. I think he had a completely personal motivation for his participation on 4/20 where he felt that this would be a way to punish everyone for leaving him alone to think about killing himself all the time. I think that's how it went from suicidal ideation to homicidal ideation. Of course, I can't know for sure how much Eric influenced him since Eric didn't start his journal until months later but I tend to believe that Dylan wanted to kill people independently of Eric's influence.

Edit: This also explains the idea of "wrath." Dylan was not only depressed but he was extremely angry and suicide was not good enough when he felt he had been mistreated by life.

I agree I do think Dylan was so angry and wanted revenge....I think he was probably the crazier of the two on that day.

Eric didn't start his journal until months later but it's a fact he had hate material on the internet, aol way before his journal. We just don't have access to it.

Going off everything, it's just highly unlikely Dylan was the one to construct this tragedy. Guys who are intent on causing destruction will do anything possible to make sure that destruction happens.

Eric Harris shot more, killed more, did everything more on 4-20-99. He was the 1st one to wake up, 1st one to get everything in order, 1st one to do everything that day. Leaders lead.

Push comes to shove, Eric was the one firing at the bombs knowing damn well they could have easily gone off which means if they did go off, he would have ended Dylan's life in the process. Obviously Dylan knew this going in but that scenario just show hows much Eric ran the show.

Dylan required other people to die so he himself could get the courage to go out too. I'm not saying Dylan didnt want to kill people because that point is impossible to argue. He killed children that day, there's no denying it. The difference is Eric simply wanted revenge. If Eric had his way he'd have fled the school after the attack and lived in hiding. Eric did have his own self esteem issues and he even admitted to being auicidal once, but on 4/20 Erics suicide was more a way to escape punishment than anything.

Dylan was the first one to mention going on a shooting spree. Not only that but when he wrote about it the first time it was in the context of being a suicide mission. Dylan's death was always a part of his homicidal urges. He didnt just see killing as a form of revenge, he saw it as the push necessary to make his death a reality. Dylan could have put a gun to his head in the privacy of his own home. He didnt though. Instead he spent a year goading his friend (who had major anger issues) into killing their innocent classmates, all so he could finally get the courage to finally pull the trigger on himself.

Eric made it known he was in this WITH Dylan. For Eric it wasnt about either boy because in his eyes they were partners. Eric writes about Dylan in a very high regard and as an equal. Maybe its just me, but Dylan never seems to show that same respect back to Eric in his personal writings. There's just no way I see them being equals to each other anymore. Eric was willing to die for with his friend, while Dylan was willing to use his "friend" as a tool to accomplish murder. That's what makes Dylan so much worse and infinitly more selfish IMO.

Although debating about who lead what, who did what is on the verge of being completely absurd because they both murdered innocent people anyways.

Nirvana92 wrote:

Dylan required other people to die so he himself could get the courage to go out too. I'm not saying Dylan didnt want to kill people because that point is impossible to argue. He killed children that day, there's no denying it. The difference is Eric simply wanted revenge. If Eric had his way he'd have fled the school after the attack and lived in hiding. Eric did have his own self esteem issues and he even admitted to being auicidal once, but on 4/20 Erics suicide was more a way to escape punishment than anything.

Dylan was the first one to mention going on a shooting spree. Not only that but when he wrote about it the first time it was in the context of being a suicide mission. Dylan's death was always a part of his homicidal urges. He didnt just see killing as a form of revenge, he saw it as the push necessary to make his death a reality. Dylan could have put a gun to his head in the privacy of his own home. He didnt though. Instead he spent a year goading his friend (who had major anger issues) into killing their innocent classmates, all so he could finally get the courage to finally pull the trigger on himself.

Eric made it known he was in this WITH Dylan. For Eric it wasnt about either boy because in his eyes they were partners. Eric writes about Dylan in a very high regard and as an equal. Maybe its just me, but Dylan never seems to show that same respect back to Eric in his personal writings. There's just no way I see them being equals to each other anymore. Eric was willing to die for with his friend, while Dylan was willing to use his "friend" as a tool to accomplish murder. That's what makes Dylan so much worse and infinitly more selfish IMO.

YES!!

Nirvana92 wrote:

Dylan required other people to die so he himself could get the courage to go out too.

I think I agree that in some way he knew he couldn't go through with the suicide unless he had to. And so he gave himself a reason to have to do it.

Sane One wrote:

Eric didn't start his journal until months later but it's a fact he had hate material on the internet, aol way before his journal. We just don't have access to it.

What do you mean by hate material?

sscc wrote:

Sane One wrote:

Eric didn't start his journal until months later but it's a fact he had hate material on the internet, aol way before his journal. We just don't have access to it.

What do you mean by hate material?

They're probably referring to all his "YOU KNOW WHAT I HATE???!!!" rants that Eric posted on his website

Kiwik wrote:

sscc wrote:

Sane One wrote:

Eric didn't start his journal until months later but it's a fact he had hate material on the internet, aol way before his journal. We just don't have access to it.

What do you mean by hate material?

They're probably referring to all his "YOU KNOW WHAT I HATE???!!!" rants that Eric posted on his website

But we do have a copy of that so I think they mean something else.

@Sane One his online hate material was simply just that. Online rantings. Inclusive of the missions and the yo mama jokes. I wouldn't take any of that seriously, neither did he although it did scare the Browns, it's only once he started writing about NBK starting with needing weapons and making bombs and all. Yes his hatred went way back, but wanting to actually kill people and planning a rampage came later with the initiation of Dylan. Having said that, your entire paragraph explains everything we know. Like of course Eric constructed NBK, HE was the planner! Who brought it up though? Dylan. Eric was leader because he was hands-on and he choreographed everything but being the leader don't make you the creator.

And [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], everything you said was perfect. Applause applause applause

They both had fantasies they couldn't do without each other.

Also are we forgetting that Dylan thought of a killing-suicide spree first with a GIRL? He was so hung up on natural born killers. If that's not prove enough he fantasised about a rampage and could only settle with Eric idk what is.

In an entry didn't he talk about how if the girl liked him back then he wouldn't do the rampage because of her or something like that, that he would love her and go with her? I'm sure it's not my imagination

sscc wrote:

Kiwik wrote:

sscc wrote:

Sane One wrote:

Eric didn't start his journal until months later but it's a fact he had hate material on the internet, aol way before his journal. We just don't have access to it.

What do you mean by hate material?

They're probably referring to all his "YOU KNOW WHAT I HATE???!!!" rants that Eric posted on his website

But we do have a copy of that so I think they mean something else.

I have read mention of several pages of Eric's rants that we do not have access to because they were taken down before anyone got copies. Maybe someone out there has some sort of copy like the bomb making site that was supposedly lost or maybe people are talking out of their arses I don't know but that is what I have heard.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Also are we forgetting that Dylan thought of a killing-suicide spree first with a GIRL? He was so hung up on natural born killers. If that's not prove enough he fantasised about a rampage and could only settle with Eric idk what is.

In an entry didn't he talk about how if the girl liked him back then he wouldn't do the rampage because of her or something like that, that he would love her and go with her? I'm sure it's not my imagination

Something about if she loved him the way he loved her then he wouldn't kill himself. I think aquilina has it as her siggy iirc

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
From acolumbinesite

Is it Super small? I'm on my phone Jesus

ultraviolencelv wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]
From acolumbinesite

Is it Super small? I'm on my phone Jesus

Ha yep it is super super tiny

Lol okay. I'm a mess. I can't delete it so copy-paste:
"but by the second page has turned into a write-up of all the reasons he could think of why some girl like her wouldn't want to be around him. He later wrote a letter to the same girl, presumably, that describes in veiled terms how he's planning to do something horrible soon and would understand if she didn't want to be involved -- before that letter, too, turns into another exercise in self-loathing.

In November of 1997, he penned out a fantasy about getting a gun and going on a killing spree. Most of his entries had less to do with wanting to hurt people, apart from himself, and more to do with not understanding why the world - and his peers - refused to give him the attention and affection he so badly craved. He seemed to hold himself largely at fault for it at times then at other times seems to blame society for not being on his level of intelligence in order to find common ground with him."

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] you're a lifesaver

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Also are we forgetting that Dylan thought of a killing-suicide spree first with a GIRL? He was so hung up on natural born killers. If that's not prove enough he fantasised about a rampage and could only settle with Eric idk what is.

In an entry didn't he talk about how if the girl liked him back then he wouldn't do the rampage because of her or something like that, that he would love her and go with her? I'm sure it's not my imagination

Something about if she loved him the way he loved her then he wouldn't kill himself.  I think aquilina has it as her siggy iirc

Which kinda brought me to think if Dylan really did find true love, would he really think twice about killing himself? Did he really meant what he said in that letter?

aquillina wrote:

Which kinda brought me to think if Dylan really did find true love, would he really think twice about killing himself? Did he really meant what he said in that letter?

He meant it up to an unrequited teenage-depressive love state I guess. But the fact that he was willing to kill people and he did, if the girl he loved went to him he may put a halt on things. It would hurt Eric real badly though. So I think the more interesting question is would he put the girl or his friend first.

aquillina wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

Also are we forgetting that Dylan thought of a killing-suicide spree first with a GIRL? He was so hung up on natural born killers. If that's not prove enough he fantasised about a rampage and could only settle with Eric idk what is.

In an entry didn't he talk about how if the girl liked him back then he wouldn't do the rampage because of her or something like that, that he would love her and go with her? I'm sure it's not my imagination

Something about if she loved him the way he loved her then he wouldn't kill himself.  I think aquilina has it as her siggy iirc

Which kinda brought me to think if Dylan really did find true love, would he really think twice about killing himself? Did he really meant what he said in that letter?

IDK about Dylan....I think that if Eric had possibly found someone in late 97 to very early 98 things could have been different. I am hesitant on Dylan. Yea he talks about it but I don't think he could have made anything work.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

Which kinda brought me to think if Dylan really did find true love, would he really think twice about killing himself? Did he really meant what he said in that letter?

He meant it up to an unrequited teenage-depressive love state I guess. But the fact that he was willing to kill people and he did, if the girl he loved went to him he may put a halt on things. It would hurt Eric real badly though. So I think the more interesting question is would he put the girl or his friend first.

I think it would also depend on what she does for him on her end. Only if she's kind and willing to accept him for who he is knowing he has nothing to offer her except himself. That's how I would define what love is.

aquillina wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

Which kinda brought me to think if Dylan really did find true love, would he really think twice about killing himself? Did he really meant what he said in that letter?

He meant it up to an unrequited teenage-depressive love state I guess. But the fact that he was willing to kill people and he did, if the girl he loved went to him he may put a halt on things. It would hurt Eric real badly though. So I think the more interesting question is would he put the girl or his friend first.

I think it would also depend on what she does for him on her end. Only if she's kind and willing to accept him for who he is knowing he has nothing to offer her except himself. That's how I would define what love is.

And when she does "human things" and fails to measure up to what Dylan was expecting? What then?

Lizpuff wrote:

aquillina wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

Which kinda brought me to think if Dylan really did find true love, would he really think twice about killing himself? Did he really meant what he said in that letter?

He meant it up to an unrequited teenage-depressive love state I guess. But the fact that he was willing to kill people and he did, if the girl he loved went to him he may put a halt on things. It would hurt Eric real badly though. So I think the more interesting question is would he put the girl or his friend first.

I think it would also depend on what she does for him on her end. Only if she's kind and willing to accept him for who he is knowing he has nothing to offer her except himself. That's how I would define what love is.

And when she does "human things" and fails to measure up to what Dylan was expecting?  What then?

That would be something Dylan had to discover himself(which unfortunately he never did). We'll never know what kind of love Dylan was searching for or what his ideal type is. In my own opinion, Dylan probably never had an ideal type. I see him as the "love at first sight" kind of person. I know it sounds weird but that's just what I believe.

aquillina wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

aquillina wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

Which kinda brought me to think if Dylan really did find true love, would he really think twice about killing himself? Did he really meant what he said in that letter?

He meant it up to an unrequited teenage-depressive love state I guess. But the fact that he was willing to kill people and he did, if the girl he loved went to him he may put a halt on things. It would hurt Eric real badly though. So I think the more interesting question is would he put the girl or his friend first.

I think it would also depend on what she does for him on her end. Only if she's kind and willing to accept him for who he is knowing he has nothing to offer her except himself. That's how I would define what love is.

And when she does "human things" and fails to measure up to what Dylan was expecting?  What then?

That would be something Dylan had to discover himself(which unfortunately he never did). We'll never know what kind of love Dylan was searching for or what his ideal type is. In my own opinion, Dylan probably never had an ideal type. I see him as the "love at first sight" kind of person. I know it sounds weird but that's just what I believe.

I don't make want to make it feel like I am interrogating you! I am just curious of your opinion! THanks

Lizpuff wrote:

aquillina wrote:

Lizpuff wrote:

aquillina wrote:

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

Which kinda brought me to think if Dylan really did find true love, would he really think twice about killing himself? Did he really meant what he said in that letter?

He meant it up to an unrequited teenage-depressive love state I guess. But the fact that he was willing to kill people and he did, if the girl he loved went to him he may put a halt on things. It would hurt Eric real badly though. So I think the more interesting question is would he put the girl or his friend first.

I think it would also depend on what she does for him on her end. Only if she's kind and willing to accept him for who he is knowing he has nothing to offer her except himself. That's how I would define what love is.

And when she does "human things" and fails to measure up to what Dylan was expecting?  What then?

That would be something Dylan had to discover himself(which unfortunately he never did). We'll never know what kind of love Dylan was searching for or what his ideal type is. In my own opinion, Dylan probably never had an ideal type. I see him as the "love at first sight" kind of person. I know it sounds weird but that's just what I believe.

I don't make want to make it feel like I am interrogating you!  I am just curious of your opinion!  THanks

Your very welcome!

I'm gonna try to explain this one, but take note that it's just speculation and I am not Dylan so I could be totally off. I feel like I may get where he's coming from cause in melancholy sense I see a little of myself in him.
Dylan's sense of fantasy and desire is through the roof. He's constantly thinking, and through his habit of porn and feeling totally gross of himself about it kinda shows that he's always fantasising. I think with the lack of seeing a girl, going out with one and having physical contact with one will obviously put weight to him wanting this certain someone to the extent of thinking he loves her when he barely even knows her. I don't think he would even know how to handle and have an actual relationship with one, let alone being a teenager. The reality of a relationship isn't as perfect as you dream of it with someone you're infatuated with. Be it timing or not, I don't think simply having a girl would have him stop killing and suicide. He might end up like that kid who shot his ex-girlfriend, if let's say she moves on with her life or let him down.
He dreams too much and glamourises everything making him expect that in his life somehow but reality is just grim. He's so afraid of his friends moving on or dating someone and he'll end up the lone man.

Take a look at Steven Kazmierczak. He and Jessica Baty were perfectly fine and happy together yet he still carried out the shooting. I think the same would have happened to Dylan. Thoughts or comments?

aquillina wrote:

Take a look at Steven Kazmierczak. He and Jessica Baty were perfectly fine and happy together yet he still carried out the shooting. I think the same would have happened to Dylan. Thoughts or comments?

IDK much about Steven but I think he was a really good actor and was also kookoo for cocoa puffs. It sounds like you're trying to imply that we never know if Dylan might actually be normal if he had a girl and won't kill.

I don't really think it'd change anything but that's me.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

aquillina wrote:

Take a look at Steven Kazmierczak. He and Jessica Baty were perfectly fine and happy together yet he still carried out the shooting. I think the same would have happened to Dylan. Thoughts or comments?

IDK much about Steven but I think he was a really good actor and was also kookoo for cocoa puffs. It sounds like you're trying to imply that we never know if Dylan might actually be normal if he had a girl and won't kill.

I don't really think it'd change anything but that's me.

I'd like to believe that both Eric and Dylan could have been saved. The possibilities are endless. But we'll never know because what's done is done. Besides I already have a fanfic in the works and I'm trying to discover what could have been different for Dylan.

ultraviolencelv wrote:

I don't think he would even know how to handle and have an actual relationship with one, let alone being a teenager. The reality of a relationship isn't as perfect as you dream of it with someone you're infatuated with. Be it timing or not, I don't think simply having a girl would have him stop killing and suicide.

This is exactly how I feel. Dylan was a romantic and he would have had a hard time dealing with or been disappointed by the reality of a relationship. Also, I think he would have realized that most of the time love doesn't cure depression or at least not for very long and he would have eventually become even more depressed.

Teenage girls are selfish and "human" for the most part. I just don't see him being satisfied by any high school girl the way that he wanted. I think any girl would have just let him down. Look at his journal. He was let down by the girls he didn't even know. That was all his own imagination of course but obviously he was always deep in his own mind. I don't see 17 year old girls being able to deal with most of that.

Dylan wrote about going on a killing spree is a fact but we don't know who thought of it first because we simply don't have access to all of Eric's material. Never did, never will. He was chatting and being hateful on AOL long before Dylan wrote about going on his killing spree.

All this change talk is just wishful thinking. It's a proven fact Eric wanted to cause destruction in one form or another. He even said if he lived and got away, he would have flown a plane into NYC.

Sane One wrote:

He even said if he lived and got away, he would have flown a plane into NYC.

That right here just scares me beyond belief. Is it true that he said something like that?

Sane One wrote:

Dylan wrote about going on a killing spree is a fact but we don't know who thought of it first because we simply don't have access to all of Eric's material. Never did, never will. He was chatting and being hateful on AOL long before Dylan wrote about going on his killing spree.

All this change talk is just wishful thinking. It's a proven fact Eric wanted to cause destruction in one form or another. He even said if he lived and got away, he would have flown a plane into NYC.

How come you're so reliant on Eric's unseen material and thinking it'd prove that Eric brought it up first? Because he was always so openly hateful? I think it's better that Eric was always being hateful online because it's prove he was as normal and angered as any other teenager and was just randomly complaining. I don't blame anyone he ever talked to for not seeing it as red flags. Dylan however came with baggage before Eric did. They both did, almost the same weight perhaps, almost aligned at the same time, and they both had almost the same desires they couldn't see through solo.

aquillina wrote:

Sane One wrote:

He even said if he lived and got away, he would have flown a plane into NYC.

That right here just scares me beyond belief. Is it true that he said something like that?

Yes he did say this

And Eric ain't gonna fly no damn plane into manhattan. I know he or they said that but that's just wishful thinking too. The Tsarnaev brothers wanted to go to New York after committing the Boston Marathon Bombing but they wasted so much time hanging out they got caught and one of them ended up dead. Those two were older than E&D. The boys were not going to make that happen.