Forgiving Sue Klebold

If one of your children were killed by her son, could any  of you forgive her? It would be hard, but I would. Forgiveness is good for the soul and yourself.

Why only Sue?

I have no idea. I can't even imagine what that pain is like.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: good question, what about Mr.Klebold and Eric's parents?

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]: I agree. Not being a parent myself, I have no idea what the pain is like.

The only thing I can think of is that Eric and Dylan emphasized their parents did not know anything and they were not responsible for anything.

If any forgiving is done it's probably for my sake to move on and not toward the parent nor with any implication I've accepted their son taking my baby away from me.

shades wrote:

If any forgiving is done it's probably for my sake to move on and not toward the parent nor with any implication I've accepted their son taking my baby away from me.

I agree that if I would forgive the parents, it is only to let go of the bitterness and hatred toward them that was weighing me down and try to move pass this and get on with my life. I could never forget the tremendous pain their child caused, but would hope to move pass this.

I've never lost a child, so I can't speak to that. However, I have had to forgive a certain low life scumbag, even though he neither asked for forvieness and probably didn't care. The reason? It affected me deeply and had the potential to change who I was a s a person. I forgave this piece of shit for ME, otherwise I would carry it the rest of my days. It did not affect him whatsoever and I doubt he would even care knowing how much I hated him. That was the singular most important thing I did for myself.

He has no power over me. I feel nothing but disgust towards this person, but I refuse to let that loser have ANY control over me, my wellbeing or my emotions.

Well, it wasn't Sue Klebold's fault her son did what he did, why would they even have to forgive her in the first place? nothing to forgive for. It wasn't her fault, it was her sons.

bradt93 wrote:

Well, it wasn't Sue Klebold's fault her son did what he did, why would they even have to forgive her in the first place? nothing to forgive for. It wasn't her fault, it was her sons.

Let me clarify here. I don't think anyone expects the Harrises and Klebolds to be forgiven. If the victims and families have been able to do so, I admire their strength. I simply used an experience in my life to give an example; that I refused to give this person the power over me. I said it before on a topic here, but I'll say it again. Hate is one of the most intoxicating emotions there is. It can, and often will, take over your life.

Im not saying anyone owes anyone forgiveness. All I'm saying is human emotion and anger are often illogical. If you dwell on these things, they take over your life. It's most often the parent(s) of the killer that gets blamed, however illogical it is to us. All I'm saying is that you can do yourself a great a favor by choosing to forgive someone who had no control over what transpired and redirect the anger where it should be.

Hell, we don't even know for sure that victims' and their families blame the Klebolds. I know I wouldn't hold them responsible for their nearly adult sons' actions,

I'm not being argumentative, so please don't take it that way.

I don't blame the Klebold's or the Harris's. It could happen to anyone.

I have my reasons to hate Eric but I don't. I forgave him a long time ago. Dylan, too. I really wish I could talk to her and let her know lots of us still think about her and want what's best for her. She's hurting and losing Tom had to make it worse. I don't forgive her because she didn't cause this. The boys did, period.

I hope she's okay

I think it's rational to forgive the parents. The parents did not commit murder. Eric and Dylan were basically adults. We've had many other mass shootings in America since Columbine and we no longer scapegoat the parents. That seems to be one of the many lessons the country learned from this.

Exactly, It's also rational to remember they were and are grieving too for the lost of their sons. In her interview, she acknowledged what Dylan did was evil, but she said she will always love him.

Why shouldn't we forgive them? They didn't do anything to help further the boy's in their plan.

People pour all of the blame on the parents for not being aware of what led to the massacre. I mean honestly, would any of you expect your son to go to school with shotguns, rifles, and bombs? Everyone changes in high school. Now granted in today's world things could be different in terms of how you watch over your kids, but back then you didn't have gun violence in teenagers and colleges like you do now. Nowadays it's like "oh look..another shooting *eyes roll*". Back in 1999, this was unfathomable.

EGSandrew wrote:

People pour all of the blame on the parents for not being aware of what led to the massacre. I mean honestly, would any of you expect your son to go to school with shotguns, rifles, and bombs? Everyone changes in high school. Now granted in today's world things could be different in terms of how you watch over your kids, but back then you didn't have gun violence in teenagers and colleges like you do now. Nowadays it's like "oh look..another shooting *eyes roll*". Back in 1999, this was unfathomable.

This.
Imagine trying to comprehend that your baby, someone who you have loved and cared for, was planning to commit an unspeakable atrocity. It could drive you insane.

At least Sue grieved for her son, did Wayne grieve for Eric? No he called his own son a "psycho"

bradt93 wrote:

At least Sue grieved for her son, did Wayne grieve for Eric? No he called his own son a "psycho"

Wayne seems like a baby boomer asshole.

You have no idea how Wayne grieved for Eric. Just because he labeled him a psycho doesn't mean he didn't love him. Hell, Sue prayed for Dylan to kill himself so he wouldn't hurt anyone else, that doesn't mean she didn't love her child. I'm sure their emotions were all over the place.

Justjenna wrote:

You have no idea how Wayne grieved for Eric. Just because he labeled him a psycho doesn't mean he didn't love him. Hell, Sue prayed for Dylan to kill himself so he wouldn't hurt anyone else, that doesn't mean she didn't love her child. I'm sure their emotions were all over the place.

Yeah, that's debatable. He may see him as a psychopath but he's your son. The biggest question of all though is would any of the Harris' "forgive" Eric. A big question I've always wondered is if the Harris' and Klebolds' saw their sons in the afterlife, would they forgive them or what would be said? I'd kill for that info decades from now, but we'll neverrrr know that one.

Can someone please show me where Wayne called Eric a psycho? I was not aware he had ever said that somewhere it would get out publicly.

From the book 'Walking in Daniel's Shoes' when the Mauser's meet Harrises. During the meeting, Tom Mauser noted: They seemed to rather readily accept that perhaps Eric was a psychopath, but indicated they didn’t know how he became one.


Maybe that is the part people are referring to.

sororityalpha wrote:

From the book 'Walking in Daniel's Shoes' when the Mauser's meet Harrises. During the meeting, Tom Mauser noted: They seemed to rather readily accept that perhaps Eric was a psychopath, but indicated they didn’t know how he became one.


Maybe that is the part people are referring  to.

Yes I think that is what people are going off of. Wayne has never called Eric a psycho outright at all. And the blurb in Daniel's shoes is just that a blurb. Since none of us were at the interaction between the families we will never know what exactly was said. And until the Harrises step out and say "yea he was a psycho" I just won't believe it.

I can't imagine being in their shoes in that situation. Really, think about it. Even if they had concerns or suspicions of something nefarious Eric was doing, no one, especially in 1999, would've dreamed that would happen. So, imagine that's your child, responsible for worldwide 24/7 coverage, who kills not just himself, but decided to take some random people with them. Now imagine the unenviable grief, but you can't show it to the world. Now, imagine sitting across from someone you don't know, but your lives are forever intertwined by a tragedy that your child is responsible for. Unenviable position. What would do you say? You can't defend your child. Awful.

I don't forgive the Klebold's and Harris' because there is nothing to forgive them for. I can't and will never understand how the parents were blamed or did something requiring forgiveness. In 1999 I was 15 and I was master level 1000 at hiding things I didn't want my mom to find. Parents (or at least the ones of mine or anyone I knew) did not search your room unless there was a reason. There are an insane amount of school shootings now, in a time where parents ransack their teen-aged children's rooms yet the parents are not blamed or sued. I'm even having trouble finding parents that were blamed prior to the Columbine school shooting, if you know any I am all ears.

I think Kip Kinkel's parents might have taken some heat. They might have taken even more after Columbine. Kip had easy access to guns, had been in serious trouble with the law before, and his relationship with his father was anything but honky dory. So in his case there were warning signs and maybe some sub-par parenting.

His story ties into Columbine because it was the biggest in a "growing recent phenomenon." A year before Columbine, he shot and killed parents in his house and then drove to his high school, walked into the cafeteria and shot 27 students, killing two before he was brought down by classmates. He was definitely one of the school shooters that E&D made fun of and wanted to outdo.

Still, Columbine was the straw that broke the camel's back. All of the school shootings that took place in the previous year or two probably contributed to the national outrage. America was already quickly losing patience.

(Interesting sidenote: Kip was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. When he heard about Columbine in his jail cell he had major episodes because he believed he was responsible. I think he was, at least in some small way. It could be argued that E&D officially began the copycat phenomenon, but they were measuring themselves against Kinkel.)

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I definitely agree they would have has some blame put on the. I meant parents that were alive to get blamed though. I don't believe E&D were measuring themselves against Kinkel since they wrote him and the other recent school shooters, as kids who wanted attention. Plus the Thurston high shooting happened on May 11th 1998, by then E&D had already started planning the Columbine "bombing" that against their desire, ended up being a shooting. I can definitely see how Kinkel felt responsible though, especially in his mental state.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I'd be careful giving them so much benefit of the doubt. I think they were measuring themselves against Kinkel to some degree. They mention the other school shooters in the basement tapes and Kinkel's was the "biggest." I also think they wanted attention/legacy. You don't think so?

It's true that they had already started planning before Kinkel's shooting, but one can imagine seeing him on the news would urge them to double down and expand on their plans. Kinkel was probably the one that proved 100% to them that they could be famous. He was all over the news. Even I knew who Kip Kinkel was and what he looked like even though I was a seventh grader on the opposite side of the country. He was talked about my middle school. I'm sure he was brought up by the teachers in Columbine.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I 100% agree that E&D wanted fame, they wanted to be remembered forever, start a revolution and all that for sure. Where I don't agree is that Kinkel influenced them, to them the previous shooters were just that, shooters. I think hey would be disgusted that Columbine is known as the worse "school shooting" because they were going for something to the extent of the Oklahoma bombing and things on that scale, not a shooting. Of course we know their bombs failed and they had to go to plan B when that happened.

I'm sure Kinkel was all over the news in the US, I don't remember seeing him in the news in Canada, then again my memory is terrible lol. Columbine was unforgettable though, it shook my school then turned it into more hell than it already was. Even if these shooters were plastered all over the TV, I still think that E&D were going for the fame that Timothy McVeigh got, in my opinion.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I agree to an extent, but the fact that they mention Kinkel in the basement tapes is telling. There's a reason why Tom Brady will never mention a college quarterback: he truly doesn't believe they are at his level, not even subconsciously (maybe not the perfect analogy but you get the point).

I've thought a lot about what a massive hit it must have been to Eric's ego when the bombs failed. Now that we are talking about Kinkel, I wonder if it crossed his mind during "the quiet period" that he'd more likely be compared to Kinkel than McVeigh.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] They actually didn't mention Kinkel in the basement tapes. the only school shooting actually mentioned is the one in Kentucky, the one transcribing said they were referring to the shootings in Arkansas and Kentucky. Kinkel was actually not mentioned at all.

We can kind of see it in his posture in the CCTV footage how disappointed he is that their master plan, that they had been planning for over a year, failed. I have wondered the same regarding his thinking "damn, now everyone is going to assume we are just another pair of school shooters" which probably made him want to wrap that shit up, the broken nose probably didn't help either lol.

Timothy McVeigh, something similar to Eric. The unsuccessful career of the military, his anti-government views, his problems come from childhood (bullies).

I'm going to disagree about McVeigh. His military career was wonderful, people in his platoon said he was a perfect soldier. They reported he had some quirks, but he had a very good military career, earning the Bronze Medal. The problem was he was getting ready to try out for the SEALS or another something like that. After the war, he was out of shape and dropped after 2 days. Disillusioned, he shortly took an honorable discharge.

- Bullies
- The treat of losing freedoms, mainly weapons.
- Waco and Ruby Ridge helped galvanize his anger

In my opinion he is in a league with Breivik in a way. Breivik is worse.

Now, agent John Douglas, who pioneered profiling bas said that these people have a traumatic experience in life, they are virgins or possibly sexually frustrated. He further states the obsession with guns was E&D's  was nothing but to feel powerful.

All of the above I add my findings:
- Males from late teenagers earl pay to mid20's
- Military experience and/or virgins
- Usually white men/boys
- Smart and/disordered.

Feel free to add.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
I agree with you.People tend to read a lot into that exchange but I am not so sure they should.Nor am I sure that we can really know what Eric's parents feel and believe about their son, because they have said no little.
Obviously, we know they suffered greatly for a long time.They no doubt felt much anguish, grief, pain.
I cannot imagine that they still don't feel grief on some level to this day.
They surely still think of Eric ,if not every day, often and miss him in at least some respects.
I can't imagine a parent not wishing that things had been different for their son (and therefore different for others too) and that he was still here.
I do think though that its a mistake to determine what his parents believe about his mental state based on one meeting with a victims family.Maybe the Mausers said that's what they believed and Eric's parents didn't feel like they could argue.
Eric's parents no doubt accept that he was deeply troubled and needed help but I would have to hear it from them directly that they believe he was a psychopath.

From Sue's Book:

June 30 Incident:

We waited for what felt like an eternity. Mrs. Harris wept. Then a deputy followed the boys through the substation office door. I practically threw up when I saw Dylan paraded past me in handcuffs. We waited hours to learn whether our children would be sent to a detention facility or allowed to return home. Finally, the officer who arrested them recommended they be considered for a Diversion program, an alternative to jail for first-time juvenile offenders accused of minor crimes. The program would provide supervised counseling and community service, and allow the boys to avoid criminal charges and placement in a detention facility. The boys were released into our care.

Scarletmoon wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] They actually didn't mention Kinkel in the basement tapes. the only school shooting actually mentioned is the one in Kentucky, the one transcribing said they were referring to the shootings in Arkansas and Kentucky. Kinkel was actually not mentioned at all.

Oh my mistake. I thought they mentioned Oregon. I swear I heard it somewhere. Info gets jumbled with too many sources. Could have been from "No Easy Answers" when Brooks is gathering his thoughts after running away down the road from the first shots, or some documentary, or never at all.

runreilly wrote:

Scarletmoon wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] They actually didn't mention Kinkel in the basement tapes. the only school shooting actually mentioned is the one in Kentucky, the one transcribing said they were referring to the shootings in Arkansas and Kentucky. Kinkel was actually not mentioned at all.

Oh my mistake.  I thought they mentioned Oregon.  I swear I heard it somewhere.  Info gets jumbled with too many sources.  Could have been from "No Easy Answers" when Brooks is gathering his thoughts after running away down the road from the first shots, or some documentary, or never at all.

I made a post mentioning this once.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
At least one source does mention shootings in Arkansas and Kentucky but others mention Oregon and Kentucky. I'm not sure which source either transcript used for their information but you were not imagining it.

For what it's worth, in the Time magazine article on the basement tapes, they do refer to Oregon.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Good point sscc.

Peter Langman's version references Arkansas & Kentucky. He made his transcript from public sources: Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold made several videotapes of themselves talking about their upcoming attack. These have not been made public in full, but parts of them have been released. The following are transcripts of the publicly available passages. Bracketed text is in the original. Some minor misprints have been corrected.

Time and Rocky Mountain News (both magazines saw copies of the Basement Tapes) both quote Oregon and Kentucky.

It was a growing phenomenon.

10/1/1997 In Mississippi, sixteen year old Luke Woodham stabbed and bludgeoned his mother to death in the early morning before he headed to school killed two (one of which was a ex-girlfiend) and injured seven at his HS.  Apparently, Woodham wore a trench coat.

12/1/1997 In Kentucky, fourteen year old Michael Carneal killed three and injured five at his HS.  

3/24/1998 In Arkansas, Mitchell Johnson and Andrew Golden were only eleven and thirteen years old.  Together they killed five and injured ten.  The shooting was done at a middle school and the shooters appear very young.

5/20-21/1998 Oregon, Kip Kinkel.  It's possible that E&D would have at least noticed Kinkel more than the others.  He was a bigger TV news story.  Kinkel was fifteen at the time and raised the bar on school shootings.  The savage way in which he killed his parents, then drove to school and shoot twenty-five classmates the next day, killing four.  Apparently, he wore a trench coat and carried 1,127 rounds of ammunition.  If he weren't tackled by students, he probably would have shot more.

We don't know all the various conversations E&D had with their friends and amongst each other before.  I think it's likely that Kinkel's massacre forced them to think bigger.  Despite being three years older, a much bigger arsenal (including explosives) Eric went to his death knowing that he was just another school shooter with a similar death/injury count to Kinkel, whom he had probably looked down on.  With Dylan's help, Jeffco police's "handling" of the situation, long drawn out live national news coverage, and Columbine being the straw that broke the nation's back, his notoriety was elevated.  However, I doubt this was going through his mind when he shot himself.

Some notes from the Basement Tapes:



These videos, they predict, will be shown all around the world one day--once they have produced their masterpiece and everyone wants to know how, and why.

Dylan boasted that directors Tarantino and Spielberg would be vying for the duo's doomsday script. He said, “Directors will be fighting over this story.”

It appears their belief that Hollywood would begin a bidding war for their doomsday script and secure their fame is a key reason why they wanted to be seen as originals.

Eric seemed to fear that after school shootings in Oregon and Kentucky, he and Dylan would be seen as copycats. Above all, they want to be seen as originals.

We're doing this alone, they said, again and again.

And they made another point: They had begun planning their rampage long before the spate of school shootings across the country.

We're no copycats, they said. Those other kids? They're copying us.

"Do not think we're trying to copy any one," Eric said.

They had the idea long ago "before the first one ever happened."

Their plan was better, he said, "not like those fucks in Kentucky with camouflage and .22's. Those kids were only trying to be accepted by others."

Just to point out, both Michael Carneal (Heath High School Shooting) & Kip Kinkel (Thurston High School Shooting) used .22 caliber guns.

However, camouflage was used by Andrew Golden/Mitchel Johnson (Westside Middle School Shooting).

sororityalpha wrote:

Just to point out, both Michael Carneal (Heath High School Shooting) & Kip Kinkel (Thurston High School Shooting) used .22 caliber guns.

However, camouflage was used by Andrew Golden/Mitchel Johnson (Westside Middle School Shooting).

Read an article on these 2 tday..  the only school shooters that aren't either dead or serving life sentences.  Crazy Arkansas law put them back on streets within 10 years (they were 11 and 13 when they did their attack).  One I believe is back in prison, the other practically vanished.

Hafta think the rash of school shootings/attacks trending in '97-'99, OKC, NBK movie/pop culture, TCM fantasies about getting back at the school etc played into E&D's motivation as much as their own issues.

My senior year in HS the lead in our school play (like CHS, huge suburban upper middle class 99% Caucasian & jock ruled, but recognized drama program) walked into drama class with a trench coat on and shotgun hidden underneath.  Few days after the play opening he jumped up on stage in drama class and blew his head off in front of the students.  I've always wondered if that would have been a mass school shooting if it was a decade later.

Bizarre, but we were walked out of the building and excused for the day/it was 2 or 3 in the afternoon.  Classes resumed the next oppty and there was little discussion and no assembly or counselors offered etc..  I never mentioned it to my parents and I'm not sure they ever knew..  we certainly didn't discuss it.  Times do change.  I heard later he was upset/depressed over the clicks in the school (his HS had shut down the year before and they were meshed into ours).   I was oblivious to such tensions.. that's why I'm not surprised when I read about CHS stories of students and teachers that claim they never saw or were clueless to any bullying.

Crazy odds, but my father was still taking some grad classes when Whitman was on the Tower @ UTexas and my son was in the same district as TJ Lane in Ohio. Son is a FR @ CUBoulder.. when he text me in the fall that campus was shut down and one assailant was put down by SWAT I was thinking wtf?

Wow what are the odds [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], those are some crazy coincidences! As for the kid who shot himself at your highschool, I was just talking to someone today about how it was so different then, than it is now. Now when there is a school shooting or even a foiled school shooting, the kids have counselors available to them, the principal has an assembly to talk about what happened (or could have happened) and how to prevent it. It seems like before school shootings became part of American culture, the days after the shooting would happen, people acted like nothing really happened and got on with their lives no counselors or anything. Things have definitely changed.

Here's a couple interesting and somewhat worrisome fact about one of the Westside Middleschool shooters. Andrew Golden, now goes by the name Drew Douglas Grant and attempted to get a concealed carry licence when he got out of jail. Of course he was denied but wow the balls on that kid!

sscc wrote:

runreilly wrote:

Scarletmoon wrote:

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] They actually didn't mention Kinkel in the basement tapes. the only school shooting actually mentioned is the one in Kentucky, the one transcribing said they were referring to the shootings in Arkansas and Kentucky. Kinkel was actually not mentioned at all.

Oh my mistake.  I thought they mentioned Oregon.  I swear I heard it somewhere.  Info gets jumbled with too many sources.  Could have been from "No Easy Answers" when Brooks is gathering his thoughts after running away down the road from the first shots, or some documentary, or never at all.

I made a post mentioning this once.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]
At least one source does mention shootings in Arkansas and Kentucky but others mention Oregon and Kentucky. I'm not sure which source either transcript used for their information but you were not imagining it.

For what it's worth, in the Time magazine article on the basement tapes, they do refer to Oregon.
[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Thanks for this [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I also remember reading it somewhere but I could have sworn it was actually in Brooks' book when he was talking about the shootings that he had happened prior to Columbine. I never thought E&D themselves referred to it though. You learn something new everyday

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.],
It is Mitchell Johnson who is back in jail on drug possession and theft charges if I am not mistaken.
Andrew Golden got out of jail, changed his name and apparently lives a quiet, law abiding life and has since his release which has been several years ago now. Little if anything more is known about his life today. One can debate if they should still be in jail but I am glad that for whatever reason, at least one of them seems to be making something out of the second chance they were given.

I'm curious what you guys think about "how the times have changed."

On the one hand it can seem as redundant, fear mongering that gives shooters fame and recognition. On the other hand I think it's indisputable that the change police procedures were positive, and I sincerely feel that the absurd number of school assemblies about bullying I was forced to go to had a positive effect. Your thoughts?

When I entered into HS as a freshman in Fall 1999 (it was a very similar HS to Columbine) I was surprised to see we had our own "Trench Coat Mafia." Students even called them that because the name had become famous over the previous months. But the thing is that most of the students seemed to be taking a closer look at them and found they were nice, "normal," dorky kids. The kind of kids who played dungeons and dragons, liked anime, computer games, magic the gathering, etc. They weren't threatening, and bullying them would have been easy, but it was taboo. I would know. I was on the wrestling team and I could be a total asshole when I wanted. I both bullied others and was bullied myself. Bullying kids because of trench coats happened, but it was most certainly taboo. It could also get you in big trouble if someone told an admin. Of course there were occasional assholes who were legitimately looking for trouble and made fun of their trench coats or compared them to Columbine or something, but that was seen as over the line. The best comparison I can make is when an immature and insensitive HS student (and we know there are many) makes a racist joke or a joke about the Holocaust. You might get a few chuckles but you better not be serious about it or push it too far or you'll be socially ostracized.

I've suspected that this is one reason why Brooks Brown took the bullying narrative as far as he did. Besides being a good way to make money, he may have also seen it change schools for the better.

runreilly wrote:

I'm curious what you guys think about "how the times have changed."

On the one hand it can seem as redundant, fear mongering that gives shooters fame and recognition.  On the other hand I think it's indisputable that the change police procedures were positive, and I sincerely feel that the absurd number of school assemblies about bullying I was forced to go to had a positive effect.  Your thoughts?

When I entered into HS as a freshman in Fall 1999 (it was a very similar HS to Columbine) I was surprised to see we had our own "Trench Coat Mafia."  Students even called them that because the name had become famous over the previous months.  But the thing is that most of the students seemed to be taking a closer look at them and found they were nice, "normal," dorky kids.  The kind of kids who played dungeons and dragons, liked anime, computer games, magic the gathering, etc.  They weren't threatening, and bullying them would have been easy, but it was taboo.  I would know.  I was on the wrestling team and I could be a total asshole when I wanted.  I both bullied others and was bullied myself.  Bullying kids because of trench coats happened, but it was most certainly taboo.  It could also get you in big trouble if someone told an admin.  Of course there were occasional assholes who were legitimately looking for trouble and made fun of their trench coats or compared them to Columbine or something, but that was seen as over the line.  The best comparison I can make is when an immature and insensitive HS student (and we know there are many) makes a racist joke or a joke about the Holocaust.  You might get a few chuckles but you better not be serious about it or push it too far or you'll be socially ostracized.  

I've suspected that this is one reason why Brooks Brown took the bullying narrative as far as he did.  Besides being a good way to make money, he may have also seen it change schools for the better.

Well according to a lot of people at Columbine that is what their TCM was. They were dorky kids who played Magic at lunch and basically stuck to themselves. The rumor about them being trouble or trying to cause trouble is mostly a myth.

"Times have changed", as you put it, in that this is a frequent occurrence now. I thought I had a good post on this. It wasn't as widely covered as it was in 1999. Sure, someone may shoot up a place or even a school, but given the advent of 24/7 media coverage, it saturated the world in ways that had never occurred before that. In contrast to Charles Whitman, they were pathetic with their junky guns and ridiculous bombs. You have to dig to find info on Whitman, but he is at the apex of school shooters. His plan, his weapons, his shots (some truly amazing) are much more sophisticated than out hers before and since. Unfortunately, that incident was consciously buried in the interest of "moving on". It's important to note, he never mentioned "bullies", though.

Policies, rules and regulations have changed since Columbine. Throw off on the police all you want, but in 1999 that was the protocol: wait on the SWAT team. Jeffco sucked for sure, but their response was textbook in 1999. It's, of course, changed now. I speak for a lot of kids prior to Columbine in that the thought of a school shooting never occurred to us. A failure of imagination, perhaps. However, half the people who drove to my school had rifles or shotguns in their vehicles, because most people hunted or target practiced.

Lizpuff wrote:

 Well according to a lot of people at Columbine that is what their TCM was.  They were dorky kids who played Magic at lunch and basically stuck to themselves.  The rumor about them being trouble or trying to cause trouble is mostly a myth.

The thing that I wonder is if these types of kids experienced less bullying after Columbine. Maybe the timing was just right at my HS, but the general feeling was that it just wasn't funny.

What do we have to forgive Sue Klebold for? She didn't do anything to us.

We should not place ourselves in the shoes of the victims.