Thought: E and D kill count if..

If Dylan and Eric didn't shoot outside and went straight into the cafeteria would the kill count be much larger? I feel like i would. I know this is a would/could situation but to me it is an interesting thought. Any thoughts?

Also, idk if this has already been a topic, if so I apologize and this can be ignored.

Most likely they would have been immediately seized and beaten. I think they didn't want to repeat the experience of other school shooters. And their ultimate goal was suicide and not an eternity in jail.

If they went straight for the library or cafeteria and placed themselves in good positions they could have easily doubled their numbers.

They wasted too much time and gave too many chances for people to escape. Obviously when you're in that situation you don't think as clear as when you're planning

They were scared of getting jumped.

i don't think the would've gotten disarmed. mainly because if say Eric would've gotten taken down then Dylan could kill more people then he did. the people in the cafeteria would've fled, i doubt people would try to disarm them but the few who would could've gotten killed easier but i think it would've been a better idea to go to the cafeteria. or they couldve planned to make it during an assembly where the WHOLE school was there and people would clump together forming a bigger target.

They were acting a little odd. Letting people live and wasting a ton of time. They were avid first person shooters. I'm sure if Dylan was looking for the highest kill count possible, he would have moved quickly, and could have killed half the library with head-shots. Those kids under desks were fish in a barrel. Instead, E&D used a lot of pipe bombs and sill CO2 bombs. Dylan did a lot of taunting. They didn't even try and enter a single classroom (kinda easy to blow in a door with two shotguns).

I think Dylan didn't fire when he went into the cafeteria at the start of the massacre because he could have been swarmed. At that moment he was separated from Eric and the cafeteria had a lot of students inside. I'm sure he was aware that's how Kip Kinkel's school shooting ended a year earlier when students swarmed him. Dylan was quick to blast off half of Lance Kirklin's face once he was out again in the open. And, in what seems to be Dylan's style that day, he had some sarcasm to go with the buckshot.

I agree with runreilly.

Sometimes people can forget that after Columbine, it basically just became a body count contest. Sure, Eric and Dylan wanted to kill hundreds of people if they could manage it, but guns were only meant to be supplementary. This is why I don't think they were intent on making the most of their time as if everyone was a winner in the murder lottery. Eric and Dylan were counting on their bombs to do most of the work for them, while Cho and Lanza strictly used firearms to achieve kills.

I think they were ill prepared for up-close kills and no amount of planning would negate that. While they did manage a few, the psychological intensity of personal killing threw them out of their element for a while, hence the wandering post-library. I mean, these are kids we're talking about. E/D would resent the designation, but they were kissless virgins who still lived with their parents at that point. They talked a lot of game, but Eric still broke his nose and many were merely taunted and not shot. There was too much screaming and crying and alarms blaring to think properly and they're expecting a fiery confrontation with law enforcement any minute in the midst of this. Their actions when all's said and done make sense considering thin, lanky computer nerds with a lot of anger and resentment but little confidence and bravado.

In my opinion, I always thought E and D weren't going for the absolute highest kill count. It was more about playing God over the people (they thought) who were oppressing them. That's why they left so many eyewitnesses and taunted people.

Dylan went into the crowded cafeteria, and he didn't fire. I don't think they wanted to shoot random people until the bombs went off, they had to kill the people outside as they would have foiled their plans too early, they wanted everyone contained.

I don't think they even planned to enter the school (?) I think they would fire from afar at people running out, and use the weapons for the police. What ended up happening was not the plan at all, and after leaving the library they walked past dozens of students in halls, making eye contact with people through windows of class room doors and even a bunch of people in the cafeteria while they tried to detonate the bombs, but at that point they were not shooting at people anymore.

There behavior that day was extremely odd considering all the talk they had about killing as many as possible. Dylan shot dead without hesitation a mentally retarded kid but spared a jock who bullied him. they had more than enough ammo to kill all 56 people in the library. they could have executed every single last one but instead they wanted to bullshit around shooting some in areas that arent even lethal and not even finisning the job, not even trying to shoot everybody. there could of lifted up the tables and shot off everyones head. than afterwards, they walked around and stared right into classrooms that were FULL of kids. they could of shot through the door and picked off every kid in every classroom. instead they just walked by and didnt touch them. they could of easily killed 100. they could have killed all 56 in the library and than a few classrooms worth. also, they killed themselves WAYYYYY fucking earlier than they had to. the swat team didnt enter the library until 3 hours afterwards. they could have went around the school killing everyone they saw, they may have reached 150. they could have killed for 3 hours longer. they were all talk and no action, cowards even in death, the incompetent bastards couldnt even do mass genocide correctly.

ColumbineIsInterestingAF wrote:

There behavior that day was extremely odd considering all the talk they had about killing as many as possible. Dylan shot dead without hesitation a mentally retarded kid but spared a jock who bullied him. they had more than enough ammo to kill all 56 people in the library. they could have executed every single last one but instead they wanted to bullshit around shooting some in areas that arent even lethal and not even finisning the job, not even trying to shoot everybody. there could of lifted up the tables and shot off everyones head. than afterwards, they walked around and stared right into classrooms that were FULL of kids. they could of shot through the door and picked off every kid in every classroom. instead they just walked by and didnt touch them. they could of easily killed 100. they could have killed all 56 in the library and than a few classrooms worth. also, they killed themselves WAYYYYY fucking earlier than they had to. the swat team didnt enter the library until 3 hours afterwards. they could have went around the school killing everyone they saw, they may have reached 150. they could have killed for 3 hours longer. they were all talk and no action, cowards even in death, the incompetent bastards couldnt even do mass genocide correctly.

You have to keep in mind that E and D didn´t know that they had 3 hours, as mentioned there was fire alarms going off and screaming and a lot of confusion to add to it so maybe they thought the police or SWAT could enter at any moment. But I actually think your comment is the most interesting because they could indeed have killed a lot more people just look what Seung Hui Cho did in only 11 minutes alone

Jbow89 wrote:

If they went straight for the library or cafeteria and placed themselves in good positions they could have easily doubled their numbers.

They wasted too much time and gave too many chances for people to escape. Obviously when you're in that situation you don't think as clear as when you're planning

No, they were absolutely convinced the bombs were going to go off.

Rachel Scott would still be alive definitely, the "Do you believe in God" question wouldn't exist and it'd be less popular in the Christian community.

The kill count would triple. At least 40 dead and there would be CCTV footage of the whole thing. If the CCTV footage got leaked the world would be shocked and Columbine would have more attention than it already got.

This is not entirely related but some of the comments here have me wondering: if it's confirmed that Dylan entered the cafeteria at the beginning of the shooting, is he caught anywhere on the 3 hours of security footage we have? I've never seen that discussed.

I think this could be also phrased "What if Eric and Dylan planned a school shooting and not a bombing?"

If Eric and Dylan had planned a shooting and not a bombing I believe their mentality would have been significantly different and there absolutely would have been a higher death toll. When they planned for the bombs to work they were expecting to pick off people from a longer range (even though most their weapons were short range and the 9mm rifle was junk) so they did not prepare for close-up death.

But if Eric and Dylan had planned a "school shooting" for over a year they would have prepared themselves mentally (in my opinion) to know what to expect when they started shooting people at close range and thus would have a higher death toll. They would have been prepared for what they would see much more than they were when planning a bombing.

In this case I believe they would have started outside the cafeteria (since that was Erics focus) shooting in through the windows and advancing inside as people fled. A lot would flee but many peoples fight/flight response is to also hide and hope for the best, they could have then gone to any room and begin execution style killings.... For hours... But I still believe that eventually Dylan would tire of it and perhaps Erics' hatred would have been quenched earlier than expected and they both would have committed suicide in the same fashion, perhaps in a different location, but all the same.

That's just a thought though.

Littlelo wrote:

This is not entirely related but some of the comments here have me wondering: if it's confirmed that Dylan entered the cafeteria at the beginning of the shooting, is he caught anywhere on the 3 hours of security footage we have? I've never seen that discussed.

No. But it was also said that you couldn't see them dropping off the bombs and now we found that footage so...

Lizpuff wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

This is not entirely related but some of the comments here have me wondering: if it's confirmed that Dylan entered the cafeteria at the beginning of the shooting, is he caught anywhere on the 3 hours of security footage we have? I've never seen that discussed.

No.  But it was also said that you couldn't see them dropping off the bombs and now we found that footage so...

Hmmm, that's a good point. Maybe CVA has a new project to look into...

Maybe (and this is just my guess) they thought the bombs were slightly delayed in their detenations, and that they would still go off at any moment. That's why I believe Eric stayed on the grassy knoll and kept firing. Dylan briefly did enter the side doors of the commons, I'm guessing he was more interested in why the bombs hadn't gone off than discharging his tec-9 and that point. I believe their movements on 4/20 all revolved around the bombs, and the so called "quiet period" was just an improvised stall tactic by them to wait out them out.

silentprocess wrote:

I think this could be also phrased "What if Eric and Dylan planned a school shooting and not a bombing?"

If Eric and Dylan had planned a shooting and not a bombing I believe their mentality would have been significantly different and there absolutely would have been a higher death toll.  When they planned for the bombs to work they were expecting to pick off people from a longer range (even though most their weapons were short range and the 9mm rifle was junk) so they did not prepare for close-up death.

But if Eric and Dylan had planned a "school shooting" for over a year they would have prepared themselves mentally (in my opinion) to know what to expect when they started shooting people at close range and thus would have a higher death toll.  They would have been prepared for what they would see much more than they were when planning a bombing.  

In this case I believe they would have started outside the cafeteria (since that was Erics focus) shooting in through the windows and advancing inside as people fled.  A lot would flee but many peoples fight/flight response is to also hide and hope for the best, they could have then gone to any room and begin execution style killings....  For hours...  But I still believe that eventually Dylan would tire of it and perhaps Erics' hatred would have been quenched earlier than expected and they both would have committed suicide in the same fashion, perhaps in a different location, but all the same.

That's just a thought though.

I think you really got to the heart of why everyone questions E&D's actions on 4-20 so much. People don't stop to remember they had mostly planned on their bombs going off and killing/injuring a majority of their victims. They also had no way of knowing (as we know in hindsight) just how long they had before SWAT entered the school. It's easy to judge or question their actions now (as many do regarding Patti Nielson's response in the library), but their mentality was very different at the time.

People saying their behavior was odd and of course it was. They were 2 teenagers who didn't expect their plan to change so drastically. And Eric and Dylan wanted to kill as many people as possible so I think that because they wasted so much time is because they were thinking on what to do and where to go. 2 teens were in a life threatening situation and their plan fucked up, they knew that this was their last hour and they really wanted to make it count. This will make their minds go crazy with thoughts and ideas especially through a teenagers mind. This is probably why they went into the library because they weren't thinking straight or logically.

Lizpuff wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

This is not entirely related but some of the comments here have me wondering: if it's confirmed that Dylan entered the cafeteria at the beginning of the shooting, is he caught anywhere on the 3 hours of security footage we have? I've never seen that discussed.

No.  But it was also said that you couldn't see them dropping off the bombs and now we found that footage so...

Can you link that I always thought that there wasn´t any video of that because of the tape change?

Areddee wrote:

If Dylan and Eric didn't shoot outside and went straight into the cafeteria would the kill count be much larger? I feel like i would. I know this is a would/could situation but to me it is an interesting thought. Any thoughts?

Also, idk if this has already been a topic, if so I apologize and this can be ignored.

They learned from Kip Kinkel

Littlelo wrote:

This is not entirely related but some of the comments here have me wondering: if it's confirmed that Dylan entered the cafeteria at the beginning of the shooting, is he caught anywhere on the 3 hours of security footage we have? I've never seen that discussed.

He did. The angles of the cameras prevented him from being seen.

runreilly wrote:

They were avid first person shooters. I'm sure if Dylan was looking for the highest kill count possible, he would have moved quickly, and could have killed half the library with head-shots.

Don't you know, those evil video game are just like real life! They turn kids into killers! 

Areddee wrote:

If Dylan and Eric didn't shoot outside and went straight into the cafeteria would the kill count be much larger? I feel like i would. I know this is a would/could situation but to me it is an interesting thought. Any thoughts?

Also, idk if this has already been a topic, if so I apologize and this can be ignored.

Probably not.

The reason Eric and Dylan's kill count wasn't great is because they had subpar guns and they played around too much.