Why I believe Dylan/Eric would have become a mass murderer anyway

There are no evil men, just evil deeds.

TheSpiral wrote:

There are no evil men, just evil deeds.

Do you think, if asked, E&D would have agreed with this?

Screamingophelia wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

TheSpiral wrote:

Nobody is "born bad", and there is no such thing as evil. I do believe we are born with hardwired personalities but that's about it, everything else is a blank slate.
How we come to view the world is set in stone by our sorroundings and influences.
They both had a chance in life, and if they didn't have the means and opportunity to do what they did, they would have grown out of it and made normal lives for themselves.

I also don't believe in "evil". it's so hard for me to say whether or not E&D would have struggled had they made it to adulthood. Dylan may have continued to battle depression and Eric may have continued to fight his anger issues. It's hard to say either one of their dispositions were just a phase though.

I think if Dylan didn't get help he would have found a way to die anyway. Eric is a bit trickier for me.

I still can't bring myself to say Dylan was just an evil, black hearted person. How do we know that his yearbook writings in Eric's YB and the BT weren't Dylan putting on a front as well?

You could say Dylan on 4/20 was playing a "part" too that day. He was awful we know but without being able to talk to them we can't really say for certain what they were thinking, we just have their writings to go on.

These are all just excuses. Why is it that hard to believe Dylan was black hearted? Seriously? The kid was talking about murderering people for years then went out and actually did it. What kind of person do you think does that?

And Dylan wasn't playing any freaking "part". He was finally showing his true colors. He had nothing to lose.

Ivan wrote:

The kid was talking about murderering people for years then went out and actually did it. What kind of person do you think does that?

A person like Eric Harris.

Exactly sscc . I know you feel passionately Ivan but since you never met Dylan you and everyone else on the board are ALL speculating.

Opinions can't be right or wrong. Everyone seems to have a different interpretation of the evidence which makes the discussion interesting

I thought of 2 quotes from them.

Eric wrote in his planner on Mothers Day the Shakespeare quote "good wombs have born bad sons"

Then Dylan and his writing about the struggle between good and evil.

What can we infer from this?

I always wondered if there are any missing E&D writings or journals that were never recovered or were thrown out by the boys prior to 4/20/99 that could have given us some more insight. Who knows if either of them had a journal prior to the ones we have seen. That could change what we think about them and their intentions, as well as when certain feelings started to emerge.

Whether or not Eric or Dylan did a lot of posturing during the massacre is something we can never be 100% sure of either way.  

Some think E&D did do a lot of posturing, roll playing, acting tough, etc. Especially in their journals and even the basement tapes. As they were trying to pump each other up and act all bad ass and whatnot. It's not really hard to think that they probably did do the same type things during the shooting.

Truth is we only have some very limited evidence to go on either way. We have witness reports, some footage from the cafeteria, and the 911 call. If you go only by those things at face value then its easy to say that Dylan and Eric were both cruel, heartless, killers, nothing less, nothing more.  But we all know that with deeper research and when you add in other things like their journals then it somewhat paints a different picture of them both.

With that being said, we still have no clue what was going through their minds as they aimed and shot at people. If a tiny subconscious voice was screaming, "WHAT THE F*CK ARE YOU DOING!?" or if they were just so caught up in the mayhem, and adrenaline high that they couldn't fully process what they were doing at the time.  

Either way, its clear that Dylan was indeed a good actor. Much better then Eric in my opinion. As Eric could hardly keep his shit under control, and everyone knew he was having major problems. Yet Dylan had most every one who knew him convinced that he was perfectly fine. That he was moving on with his life, looking forward to the future.  Little did they know the only thing he was likely looking forward to was his own death.

Screamingophelia wrote:

I thought of 2 quotes from them.

Eric wrote in his planner on Mothers Day the Shakespeare quote "good wombs have  born bad sons"

Then Dylan and his writing about the struggle between good and evil.

What can we infer from this?

Just as Sue appreciated Dylan speaking directly to her in TBT, part of me thinks if Kathy saw that quote from Eric, she must have appreciated it just a little. He was basically saying it wasn't her fault.

Littlelo wrote:

I always wondered if there are any missing E&D writings or journals that were never recovered or were thrown out by the boys prior to 4/20/99 that could have given us some more insight. Who knows if either of them had a journal prior to the ones we have seen. That could change what we think about them and their intentions, as well as when certain feelings started to emerge.

Very true. I would love to have seen the content of Dylan's hard drive BEFORE he erased it. It's hard to tell what was on it.

Also the fact that Dylan never really kept a formal journal and would sometimes write on random pieces of paper, who knows what was thrown away in the months leading up to 4/20.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Either way, its clear that Dylan was indeed a good actor. Much better then Eric in my opinion. As Eric could hardly keep his shit under control, and everyone knew he was having major problems. Yet Dylan had most every one who knew him convinced that he was perfectly fine. That he was moving on with his life, looking forward to the future.  Little did they know the only thing he was likely looking forward to was his own death.

This is something I agree with very strongly. It's exactly the reason their peers were surprised Dylan was involved but also immediately thought Eric was one of the shooters. Dylan had everyone fooled. Eric definitely found a way to deceive people but certainly not to the same extent. Also, Eric liked to share his anger and frustrations with others while Dylan kept it all in and tried to take care of things on his own.

sscc wrote:

Ivan wrote:

The kid was talking about murderering people for years then went out and actually did it. What kind of person do you think does that?

A person like Eric Harris.

Touché

Littlelo wrote:

TheSpiral wrote:

There are no evil men, just evil deeds.

Do you think, if asked, E&D would have agreed with this?

I think they would have agreed.

TheSpiral wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

TheSpiral wrote:

There are no evil men, just evil deeds.

Do you think, if asked, E&D would have agreed with this?

I think they would have agreed.

From Eric's journal:

"There's no such thing as true good or true evil, it's all relative to the observer"

sscc wrote:

Ivan wrote:

The kid was talking about murderering people for years then went out and actually did it. What kind of person do you think does that?

A person like Eric Harris.

And also a person like Dylan Klebold.

Littlelo wrote:

TheSpiral wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

TheSpiral wrote:

There are no evil men, just evil deeds.

Do you think, if asked, E&D would have agreed with this?

I think they would have agreed.

From Eric's journal:

"There's no such thing as true good or true evil, it's all relative to the observer"

Exactly.

Ivan wrote:

sscc wrote:

Ivan wrote:

The kid was talking about murderering people for years then went out and actually did it. What kind of person do you think does that?

A person like Eric Harris.

And also a person like Dylan Klebold.

Yep, that's my point. It's not useful in drawing a distinction between the two of them because it applies to both of them. My opinion is that Eric and Dylan's personalities and motives were more similar than the charismatic psychopath-depressive follower narrative acknowledges so I can understand your frustration and your point of view to some extent, though I disagree that only Dylan was a psychopath (or sociopath or suffering from ASPD). Nearly everything that is used as evidence of Eric's psychopathy could also be applied to Dylan. I am still torn on the subject but I often find myself thinking that the truth must be that both of them qualify for a psychopath diagnosis or neither of them do. I don't think Dylan was any more black-hearted or "evil" than Eric was. I know that Dylan's unlikable traits and vengeful nature are often minimized while Eric's rage and hatred are focused on to the exclusion of all evidence that he was depressed and suffering too (despite the fact that he was actually being treated for depression while he was alive!), but I don't think that it makes much sense to turn it around and exaggerate or minimize in the other direction. All evidence should be taken into consideration if we want to understand who Eric and Dylan were.

sscc wrote:

Nearly everything that is used as evidence of Eric's psychopathy could also be applied to Dylan. I am still torn on the subject but I often find myself thinking that the truth must be that both of them qualify for a psychopath diagnosis or neither of them do. I don't think Dylan was any more black-hearted or "evil" than Eric was. I know that Dylan's unlikable traits and vengeful nature are often minimized while Eric's rage and hatred are focused on to the exclusion of all evidence that he was depressed and suffering too (despite the fact that he was actually being treated for depression while he was alive!), but I don't think that it makes much sense to turn it around and exaggerate or minimize in the other direction. All evidence should be taken into consideration if we want to understand who Eric and Dylan were.

Agree wholeheartedly with this.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

sscc wrote:

Nearly everything that is used as evidence of Eric's psychopathy could also be applied to Dylan. I am still torn on the subject but I often find myself thinking that the truth must be that both of them qualify for a psychopath diagnosis or neither of them do. I don't think Dylan was any more black-hearted or "evil" than Eric was. I know that Dylan's unlikable traits and vengeful nature are often minimized while Eric's rage and hatred are focused on to the exclusion of all evidence that he was depressed and suffering too (despite the fact that he was actually being treated for depression while he was alive!), but I don't think that it makes much sense to turn it around and exaggerate or minimize in the other direction. All evidence should be taken into consideration if we want to understand who Eric and Dylan were.

Agree wholeheartedly with this.

I third this! FWIW

Both Eric and Dylan committed a terrible terrible crime. Can you really blame one more than the other? Even if we knew who originated the idea, they both formed and carried out the plan to see that idea through.

I agree with the statement above. You can't minimize Eric's depression or Dylan's anger.

Littlelo wrote:

Both Eric and Dylan committed a terrible terrible crime. Can you really blame one more than the other? Even if we knew who originated the idea, they both formed and carried out the plan to see that idea through.

I agree with the statement above. You can't minimize Eric's depression or Dylan's anger.

Agreed!

Also I absolutely agree they're equally culpable. Either one of them had a good 18 months to say this is absurd, we can't do this. They chose not to. One could have backed out and went to the police or their parents.

Also regarding the theory that it was Dylan's idea and he was the mastermind, good luck convincing the general public at that one..... and tell me at the Dylan was a depressed sweetheart who lost his way due to mean Eric Harris has been going on for 18 years.

Yeah, especially after Sue's book was released, it seems like the public perception is to pity Dylan and blame Eric.

Kathy please please publish a book on your experience! Or do an interview! (Dreaming, obviously)

Littlelo wrote:

Yeah, especially after Sue's book was released, it seems like the public perception is to pity Dylan and blame Eric.

Kathy please please publish a book on your experience! Or do an interview! (Dreaming, obviously)

It would take a lot to change that perspective.

I'd love for Kathy to at least do an interview one day!! Not with Diane Sawyer though, she has an attitude that I don't like.. I guarantee if she came out and said "I'm Eric Harris's mom and I'd like to speak out" people would be very interested

She doesn't have to release a ton of pictures like Sue did either, just one of Eric and Sparky would soften people a bit, a lot of people love dogs.

I wasn't researching at the time AMR came out. I was on my 10 year Columbine hiatus. Did she come out for just the book, did she do a Ted talk first? When did she start speaking out?

I would assume the interviews came at the same time the book was announced. So she could "advertise" the book so to speak.

I was not researching at that time. If I was, I can't imagine how exciting the news would have been and the anticipation.

I was hesitant at first to look into it again.. I can really delve into stuff. It was actually Amanda's YouTube series on being a library survivor that made me delve back in to see if there was anything new. I had the 11k, Sues book, videos. Reports, photos... so much.

sscc wrote:

Ivan wrote:

sscc wrote:

Ivan wrote:

The kid was talking about murderering people for years then went out and actually did it. What kind of person do you think does that?

A person like Eric Harris.

And also a person like Dylan Klebold.

Yep, that's my point. It's not useful in drawing a distinction between the two of them because it applies to both of them. My opinion is that Eric and Dylan's personalities and motives were more similar than the charismatic psychopath-depressive follower narrative acknowledges so I can understand your frustration and your point of view to some extent, though I disagree that only Dylan was a psychopath (or sociopath or suffering from ASPD). Nearly everything that is used as evidence of Eric's psychopathy could also be applied to Dylan. I am still torn on the subject but I often find myself thinking that the truth must be that both of them qualify for a psychopath diagnosis or neither of them do. I don't think Dylan was any more black-hearted or "evil" than Eric was. I know that Dylan's unlikable traits and vengeful nature are often minimized while Eric's rage and hatred are focused on to the exclusion of all evidence that he was depressed and suffering too (despite the fact that he was actually being treated for depression while he was alive!), but I don't think that it makes much sense to turn it around and exaggerate or minimize in the other direction. All evidence should be taken into consideration if we want to understand who Eric and Dylan were.

I agree. I think both of them had problems but weren't exactly psychopaths. They definitely had Conduct Disorder or APD though. Both of them.