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 How would you stop it?

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SandraSmit19
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PostSubject: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 09:10 am

Put yourself into the shoes of a parent or a close friend of E and D.. and it is 4/19 and you discover their plans for the next day and you know for certain that they are going to carry the massacre out.

How would one stop it? The parents have a lot more control I know but if you were a friend? Would you go to the police?
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 09:43 am

Parent or friend, call the police. Make sure they don't have access to any of their weapons in the meantime. Part of me thinks Dylan would have committed suicide before he got a chance to get in trouble for the planning. Maybe Eric, too.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 09:47 am

Think about it-- they don't know at that point if they had already planted bombs somewhere. They don't know the scale and extent of the plan. Maybe they wouldn't have realized just how serious and thought-out their intentions were. Maybe they would have done what Wayne and Kathy did previously, make them get rid of the bombs and promise not to do anything stupid.

The guns on the other hand would have gotten them in deep shit with their parents. Friends knew about them and didn't say anything.

This is so multi-faceted but I love the question!
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 09:48 am

Littlelo wrote:
Parent or friend, call the police. Make sure they don't have access to any of their weapons in the meantime. Part of me thinks Dylan would have committed suicide before he got a chance to get in trouble for the planning. Maybe Eric, too.

In California you can 5250 someone and put them in the hospital against their will but I'm not sure if you could do that in Colorado back in the day.

I think Dylan would have killed himself before as well. If he was confronted he would have found a way.

It is pretty heartbreaking for anyone with depression, but he seemed to be so depressed from such a young age.

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 09:51 am

Littlelo wrote:
Think about it-- they don't know at that point if they had already planted bombs somewhere. They don't know the scale and extent of the plan. Maybe they wouldn't have realized just how serious and thought-out their intentions were. Maybe they would have done what Wayne and Kathy did previously, make them get rid of the bombs and promise not to do anything stupid.

The guns on the other hand would have gotten them in deep shit with their parents. Friends knew about them and didn't say anything.

This is so multi-faceted but I love the question!

Most of the guns were at Eric's, right? I think maybe 1 or 2 were at Dylans for a night or 2?

Eric may have convinced his parents he wasn't actually serious or it was for a film project, but you are right the guns would have gotten them into trouble.

I think guns are so commonplace here their friends probably didn't think to say anything. Though if his friends knew the extent of Dylans depression and he had a gun, I would hope they would have gone to his parents.

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 10:37 am

I also thought about having them committed so they were no longer a danger to themselves or others.

But here is a follow up to the original question- what piece of evidence did the friend/family member discover to reveal their NBK plan? I think that could greatly affect how they would have handled it.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 10:46 am

That's an excellent question too.

Let's start with

Friend found A basement tape

Dylan's mom or Byron found a gun

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 10:49 am

Friend, let's say Zach, finds a tape. He confronts them to see how serious they are. If he gets the feeling they are serious, goes to his parents who call the police and/or E&D's parents.
Alternatively, friend tells other friends and eventually word gets out and the whole thing is blown.

Sue finds the gun- Dylan is in big trouble and she probably stops the massacre but does she know how suicidal he is? Maybe she then rips apart his room and reads his journal. Maybe Dylan gets the help he needs.

Byron finds the gun, tells Sue and Tom.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 10:53 am

Littlelo wrote:
Friend, let's say Zach, finds a tape. He confronts them to see how serious they are. If he gets the feeling they are serious, goes to his parents who call the police and/or E&D's parents.
Alternatively, friend tells other friends and eventually word gets out and the whole thing is blown.

Sue finds the gun- Dylan is in big trouble and she probably stops the massacre but does she know how suicidal he is? Maybe she then rips apart his room and reads his journal. Maybe Dylan gets the help he needs.

Byron finds the gun, tells Sue and Tom.

Friends telling another friend would spread like wild fire. Someone would have to do something.

I agree with the rest.

Honestly after reading AMR, if I'm ever a mom and I suspect something may be amiss, I'm tearing their room apart, their backpack etc...
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 11:02 am

Let's say Tom Klebold finds Dylan's sketches of their gear and lists of what they still need for NBK. What does he think/do?
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 11:15 am

Probably go for a walk with him and ask him about it. Keep it between them at first. Tom said in that clip during the diversion hearings that Dylan was open with him. He'd probably try to lie his way out of it but I think it would raise a red flag.

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 11:18 am

It would be really easy for them to say NBK was just another film project for school. I think without actual weapons themselves they might be able to talk their way out of it.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime11/12/17, 11:26 am

I agree with that one. They'd have to find the weapons and bombs

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime12/12/17, 06:04 pm

A deciding factor, I think, would be that in 1999 school shootings weren't quite as common as they are today. They had happened before and weren't unique, but they were unusual and it wouldn't have been the first thing that popped into their head.
Nowadays, if you even say you're going to shoot somebody, you'll be in trouble and rightfully so. Then, not so much.


Last edited by SandraSmit19 on 12/12/17, 06:04 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Misspelling)
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime12/12/17, 07:53 pm

That's also true SandraSmit19. The reaction today would be so much more severe than 20 years ago.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime12/12/17, 08:09 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
Put yourself into the shoes of a parent or a close friend of E and D.. and it is 4/19 and you discover their plans for the next day and you know for certain that they are going to carry the massacre out.

How would one stop it? The parents have a lot more control I know but if you were a friend? Would you go to the police?

Honestly and more importantly - seriously, If I were E&D's close friend, if I found out about it, I'd call Dylan and then Eric and then convince them to come to my house to talk for a little bit. Then once there, I'd try the absolute best I could to persuade them to hold off on the shooting for a week and stay out of school for at least three days. I'd do and say everything and anything I could, including lying, to get them to hold off for a week (if I'm lucky, two weeks). If they agreed, that would give me enough time to go and talk with Sue and Tom and Wayne and Kathy and get their help in going to Columbine and talking with Principal DeAngelis and the Columbine staff.

Why? Well because the main goal would be to show Eric and Dylan that they're not hated by all of Columbine and to bring forth the feelings of E&D and the feelings of kids like them to the rest of the Columbine students.

So in talking with Principal DeAngelis and the school staff, I'd ask him if I could do a type of open forum/school meeting/gathering where we and the students could talk about school bullying and the different social status levels that there are at Columbine, and how all of that affects each student and how we can work to heal the pain that a lot of the students feel, in regards to bullying and the different social status levels, and I'd then bring Eric and Dylan to this open forum/school meeting/gathering, as well as members of the school board; And along with the Columbine students, teachers, staff, Tom, Sue, Kathy and Wayne being at this open forum/school meeting/gathering, I'd also invite speakers that the kids could identify with, like the singers of KMFDM, Rammstein, Marilyn Manson, Eminem and if possible, even Britney Spears, LeBron James and some other sports stars, and we would have a no holds barred, gritty, brutal talk about bullying and the social status levels at Columbine and how it affects the students.

And I would highly encourage Eric and Dylan to stand up during this open forum/school meeting/gathering and tell with all honesty how they feel about what they're going through at Columbine and to not hold anything back; And I imagine there would be a lot of anger from student(s) to student(s) and students to teachers and staff, there would also be a lot of tears, a lot of crying, because you would have real, raw emotions being revealed, but I think after that open forum/school meeting/gathering, everyone would come out understanding each other (the students) I mean. I think the popular kids would understand why one year E&D were preppie kids and then the next year, they turned gothic, they would understand why nerds and unpopular kids at Columbine were so scared of this and that. It would more than likely be an open forum/school meeting/gathering that would begin at like eight that morning and would probably last until four or five that evening.

Then also at the open forum/school meeting/gathering, there would be new laws enacted at Columbine, laws that would be suggested by the students, whereas if bullying is seen occurring on the grounds of Columbine, there would be a "see something, say something" policy, so if students see bullying happening, they're required to report the bullying to the staff of Columbine, and they would even be rewarded for reporting it and if they report it to the staff and the staff fails to take action against the reported bullying, the student making the report can then take it to a higher level (which would be the school board and the law would be that the school board would have to take action against the reported bullying).

I mean, but mostly at this open forum/school meeting/gathering, there would be an understanding between the students of one another and I truly believe it would bring the students closer because in this open forum/school meeting/gathering, the students would have revealed their raw, true selves to each other. It would be an emotional time but I truly believe it would change a lot. I even believe it would bring friends to Eric and Dylan and it would make Dylan feel accepted finally among his peers.

I think it would be a powerful experience, an emotional experience and I truly think it would bring a halt to E&D's NBK plans, in fact, I wish all schools would have discussions and open forum/school meetings/gatherings like this to squash and get a handle on bullying in schools and to end the feeling of nonacceptance and the affects that social status levels have within schools.

So call all that stupid but that's what I would do.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime12/12/17, 08:12 pm

I like your ideas about helping E&D see that not everyone is their enemy. Maybe I'm too cynical but I don't know if an open discussion would really do much. They were very depressed and not mentally "with it" so any attempt at reasoning may not get through to them.

Do you think if a friend asked them not to go NBK in a sincere way they wouldn't? I never thought about it but you bring up some good thoughts.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime12/12/17, 08:29 pm

Littlelo wrote:
I like your ideas about helping E&D see that not everyone is their enemy. Maybe I'm too cynical but I don't know if an open discussion would really do much. They were very depressed and not mentally "with it" so any attempt at reasoning may not get through to them.

Do you think if a friend asked them not to go NBK in a sincere way they wouldn't? I never thought about it but you bring up some good thoughts.

Well, I think lying and saying whatever I could to persuade them might work. Even if I had to make up a lie about their parents', I'd do it to keep them from killing thirteen people, because I'd feel like once they got to the meeting and began seeing others open up with full emotion, I believe it would tear down all of their walls and depressive moods and angry moods and it would encourage them to open up as well.

So I think, if a friend sat down and got truly creative with how to stop them from doing NBK, it could have been done.

Also, I don't know, I just feel like their depression and them being mentally not with it, all came from their problems at the school, so bringing them to the school to address it all with and in front of their fellow peers in an open forum would do wonders. I just think no one sat down and really addressed with the bullies, the jocks, the popular kids, the goths, the nerds what was going on in that school and I feel like had they did that, maybe 4/20 wouldn't have happened, JMO.

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime12/12/17, 09:02 pm

I like those ideas a lot, I don't think you'd be able to convince Dylan to speak in any kind of open forum about his feelings or what he went through. He was so easily embarrassed. Also if he felt like he knew the ideas that were discussed and had a grasp on them he'd probably zone out (remember r his diversion essay)


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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime12/12/17, 09:25 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
I like those ideas a lot, I don't think you'd be able to convince Dylan to speak in any kind of open forum about his feelings or what he went through. He was so easily embarrassed. Also if he felt like he knew the ideas that were discussed and had a grasp on them he'd probably zone out (remember r his diversion essay)


Well, I would have a way around that. He would get there and go into panic/anxiety attack mode, seeing everyone there and me trying to convince him to talk and he turn and storm out. I'd go after him and tell him, "ok Dylan, you don't have to speak your feelings out. How about you write them out during the meeting and I'll read what you wrote to everyone, or you could whisper it to Eric or I and we would tell it?"

I know Eric would probably be the vocal one so Eric would agree to doing it that way on Dylan's behalf. I think in a situation like that, and with someone like Dylan, you would have to get really creative as to how to get his feelings out to the public.


Damn, now I wish we had a time machine, so we all could go back in time, to 1999 and really do this and stop the tragedy from happening. :'(
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime12/12/17, 10:17 pm

I actually think trying to get Dylan and Eric to participate in an open forum would only add to their anger.     Personally, I would go to cops first and then find a trusted adult at school to tell about what I found. But this is all speculation because as the saying goes “hindsight is 20/20.”  We are assuming Jeffco would take this seriously and actually do something about it.  We are also assuming that the school would take this seriously.  There were countless times that Jeffco and the school both could have pushed or investigated further and failed to do so.  And as for DeAngelis, he would say that bullying is not prevalent in his school so there is no need for an open forum.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime12/12/17, 10:42 pm

If Jeffco would've moved forward investigating Eric's threats I think that could have been something that changed the course of things.

Another scenario. Judy decides to tell Sue about Eric's website before noon on April 20th... maybe the week before when they were at the graduation meeting (according to mothers reckoning that happened and I believe Sue mentioned that they didn't talk about Eric. ) Judy says I know that Dylan is really close to Eric but he's really scaring me and this is why. What happens?

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 12:54 am

Honestly the only thing I can think of in that situation is to just call the police
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 07:20 am

I wonder what went through Wayne Harris's mind when he realized Eric was involved? They knew Eric and been making pipe bombs, had found evidence of it.

I would say there is a lot of guilt there and perhaps that is another reason the Harris family has never spoken out about Columbine.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 08:27 am

The first police officers to arrive at the Harris residence reported that Wayne did not believe Eric could be involved....but his lawyer was already on the way to the house and he did call dispatch about it, so I think he was full of it.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 08:32 am

Littlelo wrote:
The first police officers to arrive at the Harris residence reported that Wayne did not believe Eric could be involved....but his lawyer was already on the way to the house and he did call dispatch about it, so I think he was full of it.


I agree that by the time the police/SWAT arrived the Harris's knew. At that point I think Wayne was likely in a "Let's try to salvage what we have left." mission.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 08:34 am

ShadowedGoddess wrote:
Littlelo wrote:
The first police officers to arrive at the Harris residence reported that Wayne did not believe Eric could be involved....but his lawyer was already on the way to the house and he did call dispatch about it, so I think he was full of it.


I agree that by the time the police/SWAT arrived the Harris's knew. At that point I think Wayne was likely in a "Let's try to salvage what we have left." mission.

Plus you KNOW they had already looked in his room before the police showed up. They didn't get rid of anything because they didn't want to get into legal trouble. That plus the smell of gasoline must have given it away.

I think the only way to stop E&D would have been to call the police. Trying to reason with them may have only helped temporarily.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 12:52 pm

Yes and police would have arrested them for making threats to shoot up a school, that wouldn't have helped them at all, calling the cops. They would have been arrested and Dylan would've killed himself in the jail cell, Eric would be remorseful, would have gotten out on probation and then went on a successful murder-suicide attempt out of rage for being arrested.

A teen in the U.S. (Virginia) I read, made threats to shoot up his school, people found out about it and called the cops on him, that teen is now sitting in a jail cell with a hearing in January. So yeah it stopped the shooting from happening but it didn't help the teen at all.

I think the way to help them is not "oh let's just call the cops and report what they're doing." If you're their friend, you try to help them, not get them locked up, because kids aren't born evil or bad, something makes them that way and I believe what made Eric that way was kids treating him like shit at school. So he said fuck this, I'm going bad and when he turned bad, the kids didn't get why he turned that way, they just thought he was this Gothic freak or whatever and so they gave him more hell.  

Dylan's issue was mental and with him, I would have called - not the cops but Sue and Tom and since he dealt with depression and suicide, work with Sue and Tom to put him in a 5150 in a hospital and while in a 5150 in a hospital, he could have been put on meds, the right meds to help treat his depression and suicide because I think whether Dylan was popular, had more girlfriends than Justin Bieber or whatever, Dylan was going to always be suicidal and depressed because there was something in his mind.

But Eric, no I swear I don't believe Eric was mentally ill. I believe he had good damn sense but I think Eric was like this damn attention seeker, so to speak. He felt - "shit, people aren't listening to me when I'm nice and telling them, I'm tired of getting pushed into lockers and I'm tired of being called faggot and shit, the teachers and staff aren't listening and seeing how real of a problem this is and the other students aren't really listening and seeing how real of a problem this is. So let me turn psycho and bad and do this shooting and then maybe they'll see what the fuck I've been feeling and dealing with for four damn years.

DeAngelis would've said bullying is not prevalent in Columbine because like most stupid teachers and staff, DeAngelis didn't and (probably whoever the principal is today, still doesn't) think that bullying is a real problem but the open forum/school meeting/gathering would help the principal and school staff to see that it is.


But I know if I were Eric and I was tired of the shit kids were giving me at school and I felt I was not being heard and listened to or liked at school and I decided, "enough is enough of this shit, I'm killing these assholes" and my friend found out about and reported me to the cops, I'd never talk to the friend again, but if my friend helped me by trying to put an end to the problems I'm having at school, I'd appreciate that friend so much more.

I say this because the U.S. already has so many young people in jail and prison that don't even need to be there, instead of calling the cops and trying to jail people (because that definitely would have happened with Eric and Dylan, had someone called the cops on them before 4/20), try to fix the problems they're having.

Lastly, I'll say, here in Canada, I've seen schools that have bullying issues and open forums/school meetings/gatherings have occurred in those schools and the hardest of teens (and I mean teens who would make Eric and Dylan look like angels) have broken down at those open forums/school meetings/gatherings and have expressed how much hell they go through at their school and at the end of the open forum/school meeting/gathering, so many emotional wounds have been healed and things have been changed.

So that's my stance on it. Often times we like to run to the law when in reality, the law doesn't care about our kids, they only want to fill a status quo or fill a quota in their jail and prison system and I just feel like E&D wouldn't need that, it wouldn't help them.
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Screamingophelia
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 01:05 pm

That's one of the reasons they were put in diversion because they were basically "good kids"

I still wonder sometimes how the other kids in the diversion class felt about them getting out early then committing a massive school shooting.

I mean I felt Dylan... I had to take classes at that age and older where I was a LOT smarter than others on the subject but you're facing a felony. Tow the line dude

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 01:19 pm

You have to make a choice at some point. Do you try to help E&D by having a "talk" with them or do you do the one thing you know can stop them from killing 13 innocent people, which is call the police.

Because yes, it would be sad to see them sit in jail or die in jail, but they also were planning to kill people.

It's just a tough situation.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 01:25 pm

You have to figure out do you want them to hate you forever or do you want to save lives?


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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 01:32 pm

No it's not about having them hate you forever, it's about helping them and saving lives. I honestly do think they could have been helped and the shooting could have been avoided had someone walked in that school and been like, "Goddamn it, we need to address what the hell is happening at this school."

Because I mean, something is very wrong at these schools when you have kids shooting them up or threatening to shoot them up and when asked why they did this or threatened to do this, they say because I got tired of people treating me like shit.

I think lives could have been saved on 4/20 and beyond if we cut the problem off at the head. Because also this too, ok so you call the cops, E&D are put in jail but what about the next kid or kids who are at Columbine, who feel the same way E&D did and who are treated the same way E&D are at Columbine and that kid or kids wants to shoot up the school? Then what? You call the cops on them too?

It would keep happening again and again and again (and as we see in the news, it does), unless we stop and fix the problem.

Like I said, call me crazy but I 500% believe that would be better instead of reporting them to cops and just stopping the temporary problem and not the permanent problem.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 01:35 pm

The only reason I lean towards them being beyond talking them out of it, is because the OP's question states that in this scenario, you would discover their plan on 4/19/99. Only one day before the shooting.

If we're talking about catching this earlier, I could see how there may be alternatives to calling the police.
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 01:37 pm

42099_4EVA wrote:
No it's not about having them hate you forever, it's about helping them and saving lives. I honestly do think they could have been helped and the shooting could have been avoided had someone walked in that school and been like, "Goddamn it, we need to address what the hell is happening at this school."

Because I mean, something is very wrong at these schools when you have kids shooting them up or threatening to shoot them up and when asked why they did this or threatened to do this, they say because I got tired of people treating me like shit.

I think lives could have been saved on 4/20 and beyond if we cut the problem off at the head. Because also this too, ok so you call the cops, E&D are put in jail but what about the next kid or kids who are at Columbine, who feel the same way E&D did and who are treated the same way E&D are at Columbine and that kid or kids wants to shoot up the school? Then what? You call the cops on them too?

It would keep happening again and again and again (and as we see in the news, it does), unless we stop and fix the problem.

Like I said, call me crazy but I 500% believe that would be better instead of reporting them to cops and just stopping the temporary problem and not the permanent problem.

I meant calling the police and having them jailed the night before.

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 01:38 pm

If Judy came to Sue the night before about Eric's website and threats, what could she have done?

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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 01:44 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
If Judy came to Sue the night before about Eric's website and threats, what could she have done?

With no reason for a sense of urgency, Sue might have called Eric's parents and talked to Dylan about it, but Judy had threats that were over a year old at that point. If Sue didn't have reason to believe Dylan was involved and didn't check his room, it might not have mattered.

Also, Kathy Harris was supposed to be leaving for vacation on or around 4/20/99. Imagine Sue calls and leaves a message and they decide to just wait until she gets back from vaca to talk about it.. Shocked
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PostSubject: Re: How would you stop it?   How would you stop it? Icon_minitime13/12/17, 05:40 pm

Screamingophelia wrote:
If Judy came to Sue the night before about Eric's website and threats, what could she have done?

Nothing.
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