Demeanor change?

I know I asked about who died after Dylan's confrontation with Val. Then there was Eric and Bree arguing after Eric broke his nose.

After that is that when they killed Isaiah and Dan Mauser? Or before?

I'm just wondering if hearing Val scream "what is wrong with you?" etc. rattled them? After that Dylan smashed a chair and they tried to detonate a bomb. Like their hummanity was coming back and/or they were disappointed since it was not what they wanted.

I think Eric breaking his nose was a significant point in the event that most likely changed the way things happened.

The kickback of the shotgun was hard enough to break Eric's nose, so it likely disoriented him to a degree. I'm sure that was SO not part of Eric's plans, but just how addled he was after that is not really known.

There were a lot of things that could have had an effect on the outcome, the shotgun to the face was just one of them.

Although to add to that, Eric probably didn't feel as much pain as he normally would due to all the adrenaline.

I agree, he was likely extremely disoriented

Littlelo wrote:

Although to add to that, Eric probably didn't feel as much pain as he normally would due to all the adrenaline.

I agree, he was likely extremely disoriented

I don't know about that, adrenaline would only block so much. I'm sure the force from that kickback likely knocked some of it out of him.

I do often wonder if either of them have a moment of "wow why am I doing this?" Or a feeling of sympathy. Many people use the 9-1-1 call as proof that both of them were cruel and heartless, which is a fair assessment. But we don't know for sure what they were really feeling I guess.

That's why I was wondering what happened after Val because after they left the library they wandered. I think Dylan was trying to put on a show so to speak. We'll never know.

Screamingophelia wrote:

That's why I was wondering what happened after Val because after they left the library they wandered. I think Dylan was trying to put on a show so to speak. We'll never know.

I do think that at some point the adrenaline did wear off a bit, and after the high started fading they looked around and was like "WOW, look what we have done!" But whether it was a proud or a horrified moment is anyone's guess.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

That's why I was wondering what happened after Val because after they left the library they wandered. I think Dylan was trying to put on a show so to speak. We'll never know.

I do think that at some point the adrenaline did wear off a bit, and after the high started fading they looked around and was like "WOW, look what we have done!"  But whether it was a proud or a horrified moment is anyone's guess.

It's so creepy to think that there's a chance they looked around and were proud of themselves.

I do subscribe to the theory that they were both disappointed about the bombs, though. And that their morale and motivation declined because of that failure. I mean that was the main part of their plan.

Littlelo wrote:

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

That's why I was wondering what happened after Val because after they left the library they wandered. I think Dylan was trying to put on a show so to speak. We'll never know.

I do think that at some point the adrenaline did wear off a bit, and after the high started fading they looked around and was like "WOW, look what we have done!"  But whether it was a proud or a horrified moment is anyone's guess.

It's so creepy to think that there's a chance they looked around and were proud of themselves.

I do subscribe to the theory that they were both disappointed about the bombs, though. And that their morale and motivation declined because of that failure. I mean that was the main part of their plan.

I got the vibe that they didn't want to kill people up close, just pick them off as they were running out.

Then you have Dylan whose talking about knifing people and shooting people in the face.

I read an early report where Lance Kirklin said it was Eric who shot him. Ballistics probably proved otherwise.

I'm not an expert on the events of the library, but my understanding is that only Kyle and Steven were killed before the broken nose. Cassie was on the west side of the library and that was the first section they walked through after going by the computer area. I think they killed Isaiah and Matthew right after that.

Also, they continued to kill after shooting Valeen. I'm not sure of the exact order but this was on the east side of library and I believe that they went to the center section last, where they killed Daniel and Corey. I'm not totally sure if they killed Kelly and John before or after they went to Val and Lauren's table but they did continue to shoot people after they shot the girls at Table 2, as far as I know.

sscc wrote:

I'm not an expert on the events of the library, but my understanding is that only Kyle and Steven were killed before the broken nose. Cassie was on the west side of the library and that was the first section they walked through after going by the computer area. I think they killed Isaiah and Matthew right after that.

Also, they continued to kill after shooting Valeen. I'm not sure of the exact order but this was on the east side of library and I believe that they went to the center section last, where they killed Daniel and Corey. I'm not totally sure if they killed Kelly and John before or after they went to Val and Lauren's table but they did continue to shoot people after they shot the girls at Table 2, as far as I know.

Thanks. I was always a bit unsure on the time line

The bombs not going off had to hit them hard. Let's not forget the plan was to bomb the cafeteria and kill loads of people, then pick off kids running out. They planned on the bombs killing alot of people, so when they failed we can only assume they were really disappointed. As far as the broken nose, I can almost guarantee he felt it, even with adrenaline. Ever get punched in the nose, even somewhat lightly? Your eyes water like crazy and it is painful. His nose was broken so bad that it was crooked, so adrenaline or not, he felt it. I'm pretty sure that Bree said he had a hard time when he was kneeling on his feet talking to her.

I always figured if the bombs had detonated, they would have remained outside. But in TBT they talk about "charging through the school" so I guess that was always part of their plan, right?

Littlelo wrote:

I always figured if the bombs had detonated, they would have remained outside. But in TBT they talk about "charging through the school" so I guess that was always part of their plan, right?

I think so. IIRC Eric talks about in his journal about going into the school and shooting people after the cafeteria bombs.

Littlelo wrote:

I always figured if the bombs had detonated, they would have remained outside. But in TBT they talk about "charging through the school" so I guess that was always part of their plan, right?

That's what I believe. This has no real basis in fact but I have a vision of their plan going as expected where they would pick off cafeteria survivors and people leaving from the west entrance. When people started retreating and heading down the hall toward other exits because they figured out where the shooters were, I would expect that they would follow them into the west entrance and probably head down the main hall shooting fleeing students, possibly with a final goal of a shootout with arriving cops from the east entrance of the school. The way I imagine this, it would have been a lot more reminiscent of Doom than shooting cowering students under tables in the library.

It's related to the failure of the bombs, but I suspect that this also factors into the explanation of why Eric seemed to lose interest in shooting his classmates before they ran out of ammunition. I think he wanted absolute chaos, action and excitement but after the shooting outside, they basically only had a bunch of students hiding quietly in the library or in classrooms. I also think that this is why they told everyone to stand up. It would have been easiest to kill people by systematically shooting under the tables. I think they may have wanted people to stand up and were planning to allow them to try to escape so they could shoot them as they fled. When no one stood up, it was boring. Shooting fish in a barrel, basically, and nothing resembling the exciting Doom-like scenario that Eric was trying to manifest.

I think Dylan may have actually preferred shooting people close up though, and that's why he seemed so excited in the library. I think Dylan was more intrigued by the aspect of "playing god" during the shooting than Eric was. In his essay, all of the killing was very up close and personal, and I think that this is what he was looking for. Outside, Eric took a perch at the top of the stairs, almost like a sniper for much of the shooting, while Dylan was generally moving towards his victims or standing right next to them when he was firing.

sscc wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I always figured if the bombs had detonated, they would have remained outside. But in TBT they talk about "charging through the school" so I guess that was always part of their plan, right?

I think Dylan may have actually preferred shooting people close up though, and that's why he seemed so excited in the library. I think Dylan was more intrigued by the aspect of "playing god" during the shooting than Eric was. In his essay, all of the killing was very up close and personal, and I think that this is what he was looking for. Outside, Eric took a perch at the top of the stairs, almost like a sniper for much of the shooting, while Dylan was generally moving towards his victims or standing right next to them when he was firing.

I never thought about this before but I think you're right. Plus didn't Dylan grab Isaiah's leg in the library?

Littlelo wrote:

sscc wrote:

Littlelo wrote:

I always figured if the bombs had detonated, they would have remained outside. But in TBT they talk about "charging through the school" so I guess that was always part of their plan, right?

I think Dylan may have actually preferred shooting people close up though, and that's why he seemed so excited in the library. I think Dylan was more intrigued by the aspect of "playing god" during the shooting than Eric was. In his essay, all of the killing was very up close and personal, and I think that this is what he was looking for. Outside, Eric took a perch at the top of the stairs, almost like a sniper for much of the shooting, while Dylan was generally moving towards his victims or standing right next to them when he was firing.

I never thought about this before but I think you're right. Plus didn't Dylan grab Isaiah's leg in the library?

Yes, he did

Sscc, awesome post. It's a lot to think about.

Witnesses said Eric was like a soilder on a mission and Dylan was a maniac. Most of the yelling and "wooting" was him.

Just makes it harder to believe that one of them needed to yell "are you still with me?" Or "are we still doing this?". Unless it was misheard or in a different context.

I'd love to hear an interview with Lisa Kreutz. She was more councious than Patrick I think?

I'll add that to the fantasy list with a Wayne Harris interview, full Basement Tapes and world peace...

Screamingophelia wrote:

I'd love to hear an interview with Lisa Kreutz. She was more councious than Patrick I think?

I'll add that to the fantasy list with a Wayne Harris interview, full Basement Tapes and world peace...

LOL seriously. A girl can dream!

Screamingophelia wrote:

I'd love to hear an interview with Lisa Kreutz. She was more councious than Patrick I think?

I'll add that to the fantasy list with a Wayne Harris interview, full Basement Tapes and world peace...

Actually we have a better chance at world peace then we do of getting the basement tapes or an interview with Eric's dad.

ShadowedGoddess wrote:

Screamingophelia wrote:

I'd love to hear an interview with Lisa Kreutz. She was more councious than Patrick I think?

I'll add that to the fantasy list with a Wayne Harris interview, full Basement Tapes and world peace...

Actually we have a better chance at world peace then we do of getting the basement tapes or an interview with Eric's dad.

The way the world is going anything is possible.